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Lycanthromancer
2009-03-05, 01:31 AM
I'm a total n00b to 4e, though I've sat in on a few sessions, and I have to say I'm really not particularly interested in playing it, mostly because it took what I hated most about the 3.5 fighter (you spam the exact same thing EVERY SINGLE ROUND) and made everyone do it.

After my friend has asked me lots and lots of times to play, I finally acquiesced, and after I described the kind of character I wanted (battlefield control), he gave a basic description of several classes and what they could do. I've decided on a wizard/bard multiclass, but have yet to figure out a race.

I'm mostly doing this to spend time with my friends, as I found the play during the game rather boring, and I don't really want to buy rulebooks for a game I'm not horribly emotionally invested in (so I can't really wade through them before making the character).

Anybody have any advice on how to build someone who can control the movements and actions of enemies and allies? Maybe grant extra moves, deny enemy actions, push them around like chess pieces, block off routes of escape, and so on? Maybe some race suggestions that will remain relevant over the course of his career?

AFAIK, I'm starting at about level 3-4, though I don't know how he's doing things like ability score generation, etc.

Thanks for your help.

NPCMook
2009-03-05, 01:41 AM
By your name I can tell you like Lycans, so I'd say one of the shifters from the back of the MM(don't worry later this month they get a full write up in PHB 2), For a Wizard/Bard, Tiefling as they get a Bonus to Int and Cha.

Ninetail
2009-03-05, 02:24 AM
Don't do the exact same things every round, then.

Improvise! Use the scenery. Refer the GM to page 42 in the DMG if he has questions.

Powers are not an exclusive list of things the character can do. They're a list of specific techniques that he's mastered. Use them to your advantage, but don't think that you can't do anything else. You can.

TheOOB
2009-03-05, 02:54 AM
A level 1 character will have 5 powers, not including inherient class powers, powers from feats, powers everyone has(like charging, basic attacks, ect), and magic item powers. You will gain a new less then every two levels until you are over level 10 when the rate slacks off(then you mostly just replace old powers with better powers).

This gives you much more options then any character in 3e(even the wizard who would only have 2-3 1st level spells per day at level 1, and only became the masters of everything later), and as long as you think tactically, and work as a team, you shouldn't feel like you are repeating the same tactic.

It's true at low levels you will be using your at-will powers a lot, but many at will powers can be used in many ways. Powers like Tide of Iron, Thunderwave, Wolf Pack Tactics, Deft Strike, Cloud of Daggers, and Eyebite are almost limitless in the kinds of situations they are useful in, and at low levels you really learn how to stretch these powers to their fullest.

Don't worry, as you level up you'll find you have plenty of options. At level 10 you'll have 2 At-Wills, 1 Racial, 3 Encounters, 3 Dailies, 3 Utilities, Possibly several class/feat powers, and a few to a dozen different magic item powers, and thats not counting battlefields with interesting terrain features you can exploit. You won't find any lack of things to do.

Anyways, I don't know about the bard, but battlefield positioning is one of the focal points of a tactical warlord. They are great at setting up the battlefield exact ally how they want. Moving allies into place, pushing around enemies and restricting their movement and capabilities, giving your allies extra attacks and buffing them up. For a lesser example the rogue also has lots of enemy positioning powers, though almost every class has some(wizard happens to have one of the best at-will push abilities in the game, if you are going wizard and you want to be the chessmaster, get thunderwave).

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 03:00 AM
Honestly, I'd go more with Warlord is you want to be moving around folks a lot. Wizards are more focused on setting up zones of denial and pain :smalltongue:

How wedded are you to Wizard? If you are, then be an Orb Wizard to shut down people's saves (and have a high WIS for Thunderwave)... Dwarf works good for that. If not, look at the Tactical Warlord - I think you might like it. :smallsmile:

Belobog
2009-03-05, 03:32 AM
Is your friend not willing to lend you his books? I wouldn't expect anyone to just jump on a train when they aren't sure that they want to ride, but at least you should be able to get a glimpse at what you'd be paying for. If nothing else, you'd have to get a look while building your character, even for a little bit. There are just too many options to keep you in the dark.

As for relevant race suggestions...well, the only things that are unquestionably relevant are race and class/paragon path/epic destiny. These are the only things that give you features that you can't go back and replace later, and as such, are permanent character choices. Powers gives you options, feats give perks, and items gives a little of both...but those are all malleable and since it's your first time playing, you'll probably retrain a fair bit as you find out what works and what doesn't (assuming you still with it). Just a note, though, you can only retrain during a level up.

As to what you've described in terms of class...Those abilities are spread out all throughout the classes, mostly based on role. Granting actions is strictly Warlord territory, IIRC. Action interruption is mostly Defender stuff, I think (Fighter, Paladin). Everyone receives powers that push/pull/move, though some (Controllers) have more of them than others (Everyone else).

Kurald Galain
2009-03-05, 04:20 AM
Anybody have any advice on how to build someone who can control the movements and actions of enemies and allies? Maybe grant extra moves, deny enemy actions, push them around like chess pieces, block off routes of escape, and so on?
A bard can grant extra moves. Bards also heal allies, boost their skills, and play some mind tricks on their enemies.

A wizard is very, very good at denying enemy actions, pushing them around, and block off routes. However, their second-level jump spell lets them move allies around.

However, you can't really combine the two. Multiclassing in 4E means you splash a bit of a second class into your first class, at the cost of your feats. Also, since they use different ability scores, wizard/bard might not combine as well as you want it to.

This means that you have to choose which of the two to focus on. Do you want a character that mainly aids allies, and occasionally denies enemy stuff? Or a character that mainly drives his enemies crazy, and occasionally moves an ally around?

Incidentally, check my sig for some advice on building a wizard. This advice could also be applied to other arcane classes, in particular the bard.


Maybe some race suggestions that will remain relevant over the course of his career?
Good races for a wizard include anything with an Int bonus, and in particular Eladrin (teleport ftw!), Doppelganger (for the disguise power), Githyanki (for movement) and Gnome (for hiding).

Good races for a bard include anything with a Cha bonus (duh), and in particular Half-elf (comes with a free wizard power) and Halfling (you can't hit me).

Humans are, perhaps surprisingly, less useful than they seem. This is because at higher levels (5 and up) you'll be using your at-wills much less often (since you have more encounter/daily powers, including those from items) and thus having a third at-will becomes increasingly irrelevant. So humans do not "remain relevant over the course of your career".


AFAIK, I'm starting at about level 3-4, though I don't know how he's doing things like ability score generation, etc.
There's default point buy in the PHB. Two suggestions for this. First, never put less than an 18 (after racial modifiers) in your primary stat (int for wizard, or cha for bard). Second, you can safely ignore and dump two or three of your stats; don't try to keep all your stats on average-or-better.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 04:33 AM
There's default point buy in the PHB. Two suggestions for this. First, never put less than an 18 (after racial modifiers) in your primary stat (int for wizard, or cha for bard).

This I disagree with, particularly if you're using the Point Buy (instead of a Standard Array). 18's are too expensive, and being +1 "behind the curve" is not especially fatal. No less than a 16, to be sure.

One thing to keep an eye on is the pair stat defenses. Reflex is INT/DEX, Fortitude is STR/CON, and Willpower is WIS/CHA; generally speaking it's good to have a decent score in one member of each pair. Reflex can be compensated for with a shield, and being Human gives you a +1 in all Non AC Defenses (NADs) which is worth 2 points in a stat.

Also, if you have at least INT 13, Jack of All Trades is a great feat for rounding out weak skills. A +2 to all untrained skills can make your Wizard STR 14 instead of 10 when he has to make that jump!

Sebastian
2009-03-05, 05:01 AM
I'm not 4e expert but from what you ask I think your best option is take a warlord and refluff it as a wizard.

The New Bruceski
2009-03-05, 05:09 AM
If you don't want to buy books for getting started (and I don't blame you) the Character Builder program is free for levels 1-3, has all published content, and is surprisingly well-made.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-05, 05:26 AM
18's are too expensive, and being +1 "behind the curve" is not especially fatal. No less than a 16, to be sure.
Note how I said "18 after racial mods". So 16+2 is best. But 18s are not too expensive unless you're picking a race that really doesn't synergize with your class.

Since most of 4E revolves around hitting people, a +1 to-hit is very important, and you will be disappointed if all of the other players are hitting visibly more often than you do (as happened, for instance, to a friend of mine who built a str-14 fighter). Getting a minor bonus to a skill you'll only use rarely pales in comparison.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 04:05 PM
Note how I said "18 after racial mods". So 16+2 is best. But 18s are not too expensive unless you're picking a race that really doesn't synergize with your class.

Since most of 4E revolves around hitting people, a +1 to-hit is very important, and you will be disappointed if all of the other players are hitting visibly more often than you do (as happened, for instance, to a friend of mine who built a str-14 fighter). Getting a minor bonus to a skill you'll only use rarely pales in comparison.

No, I'm aware, but it can sometimes be better to get a 16 in both your primary and secondary ability scores rather than 18/14. For example, Dwarven Wizards are very good, even only with a 16 in INT. Likewise, Elven Fighters do pretty well, even without a Strength bonus.

This is doubly true for Martial classes, since they can take a +3 proficiency weapon instead of a +2 in order to make up the difference. You are in no way gimped with only a 16 in your primary stat.

NeoVid
2009-03-05, 04:57 PM
For controlling the characters on the battlefield, Tactical Warlord is the way you want to go, and it's crazy fun to play. For controlling the layout of the battlefield, you probably want a Staff Wizard. Since wiz/warlord both focus on Int, it shouldn't be that hard to multiclass, though it won't sork perfectly.



I'm really not particularly interested in playing it, mostly because it took what I hated most about the 3.5 fighter (you spam the exact same thing EVERY SINGLE ROUND) and made everyone do it.


I had always heard that one of the core concepts of 4th was that every class at every level could do something cool every turn...

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 05:29 PM
For controlling the characters on the battlefield, Tactical Warlord is the way you want to go, and it's crazy fun to play. For controlling the layout of the battlefield, you probably want a Staff Wizard. Since wiz/warlord both focus on Int, it shouldn't be that hard to multiclass, though it won't sork perfectly.

Actually, TacLord with MC Wizard works really well. Take Cloud of Daggers as your MC power (no attack roll and very flexible), pick up a nifty Wizard Utility (Arcane Gate is incredible if you need to, say, set up flankers or snipers before a battle) and maybe an Encounter/Daily for some Zone or Wall effects.

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-05, 07:32 PM
For controlling the characters on the battlefield, Tactical Warlord is the way you want to go, and it's crazy fun to play. For controlling the layout of the battlefield, you probably want a Staff Wizard. Since wiz/warlord both focus on Int, it shouldn't be that hard to multiclass, though it won't sork perfectly.




I had always heard that one of the core concepts of 4th was that every class at every level could do something cool every turn...

Right. Except that it's the same 'cool' thing every turn. The only time anyone ever did anything interesting was with the encounter powers, and they could only do that once per encounter...obviously.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 07:40 PM
Right. Except that it's the same 'cool' thing every turn. The only time anyone ever did anything interesting was with the encounter powers, and they could only do that once per encounter...obviously.


:confused:

All characters get 2 at-wills out of 4-5 potential choices. In addition, they can make Basic Attacks, Bull Rushes and Grabs, all at will. They also get an additional Encounter power at LV 1, 3 and 7 and a Daily at 1, 5, and 9. Utilities are gained at 2, 6, 10 and continually through the game. Once a character reaches a new Tier, he can swap out Dailies and Encounters for new and different ones, plus the new powers granted by Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. And any magical item Dailies or Encounters you have available.

Every power does something different; Tactical Warlords actually can do a great many things that can shape the battlefield to their liking. How is any of that "the same thing every turn?"

Arbitrarity
2009-03-05, 07:56 PM
Really, one of the nice things about 4e is the battlefield. While powers like Thunderwave and Wolf Pack Tactics, Viper's Strike, Tide of Iron, and so forth, seem quite boring and repetitive, they're actually very, very fun to use in a fight. Wolf Pack Tactics, for example, lets you guaranteed move a nearby ally, which I've wished for many a time. You can pull people out of being threatened so they can retreat, let people engage and retreat on their turn, get away from auras and area of effect attacks, and easily set up flanks for your benefit (and the rogue's).
Thunderwave? Best, most fun my wizard has. I don't open doors anymore. The door opens itself, and decapitates people behind it. (Also, I get to add "and a door" to every bit of flavor text in a room :smallbiggrin:)
Really, my encounter powers sometimes seem subpar compared to Thunderwave with a good wisdom score. Tide of Iron? Knock enemies away from allies, into flanks, away from their allies, etc.

Also, Action points let you set up fun combinations, daily powers don't need to be hoarded too carefully, (though our group does. It slows things down a bit.)

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-05, 08:14 PM
:confused:

How is any of that "the same thing every turn?"
Maybe it's just the group. They're the kind of people that think that 3.5 monks were overpowered, and always went for core melee types.

They like the 'I attack its AC' line of thinking. Which I find incredibly boring. I prefer to use my abilities through clever thinking. Even cantrips can deal death when you use them right.

So maybe that's it.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 08:31 PM
They like the 'I attack its AC' line of thinking. Which I find incredibly boring. I prefer to use my abilities through clever thinking. Even cantrips can deal death when you use them right.

Ah, then the Wizard is what you want. They have an at-will (Thunderwave) that drops a Blast 3 (a 15' x 15' square) of Thunder damage that pushes targets in it a number of squares equal to your WIS modifier. Between that and Wizard Cantrips, I'm sure you'll have a fine time of it :smallsmile:

Let's see... I'd say a Dwarven Staff Wizard. Staff Wizards are very tanky, and Dwarves can have good CON and WIS, which is helpful since Thunderwave requires you to be on the front lines to use. In the alternative, a Spear Fighter with Tide of Iron can do a lot of pushing around - combine with the Iron Vanguard PP and Spear Push and you can knock people clear across the battlefield... right off a cliff :smalltongue:

Asbestos
2009-03-05, 08:35 PM
In the alternative, a Spear Fighter with Tide of Iron can do a lot of pushing around - combine with the Iron Vanguard PP and Spear Push and you can knock people clear across the battlefield... right off a cliff :smalltongue:
And nothing says awesome like a cliffside fight... sadly you can only do this so many times before it gets old, unless your setting is "Pits and Precipices"

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-05, 08:39 PM
And nothing says awesome like a cliffside fight... sadly you can only do this so many times before it gets old, unless your setting is "Pits and Precipices"

Oh, there's lots of fun stuff to knock people into. Fires, out windows, off bridges, into traps, through Blade Barriers... :smallamused:

In all seriousness, you can do a lot with Pushes. I was running a Warlord and through a combination of powers and magic items I was able to knock all of the bad guys into our Warlock's Hunger of Hadir in one turn. Good times :smallbiggrin: