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Charity
2009-03-05, 05:18 AM
There is a thread on RPGnet where many beans are being spilt

Half orcs are STR and DEX.


Melee Training: use stat of your choice for basic attacks. Chaladins rejoice!

Thank you WotC my Drow paladin and his mate the rogue are rejoicing.

I could cut n paste lumps over here but you might as well see for yourselves. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=441229)

bosssmiley
2009-03-05, 08:24 AM
Some folk in Japan have the PHB 2 already...

That's because Japan is the future. :smallwink:
(it's true! They have bipedal robots, and they consider the iPhone backwards (http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2009/02/why-the-iphone.html))

I notice a little griping over the idea of yet another revision to Stealth mechanics. Is Stealth the ever-nagging polymorph subschool problem of 4E, or is this an example of the 'continually-updated beta' philosophy I've seen being talked about?



No prerequisites? Just a +1 feat bonus to all attacks made with that item?
Nope, a straight up plus one! And I should have added that it becomes an amazing +2 and +3 at 15th and 25th level!

Is this snark? I don't speak 4Enese. :smallconfused:

Charity
2009-03-05, 08:39 AM
No SnarkTM In the land of no attack bonuses the +1 bonus is king...
Bonuses to hit are rare in 4e and a +1 per tier adds enough to warrant excitement it seems.
There is some groovy Deva stuff though, and some new divine classes, my Paladin has been looking for some multiclass options (mc into cleric just seems a little dull)
I tried to link to some pics but the little red cross fairy came avisiting...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3329485013/in/photostream/

Tygell
2009-03-05, 08:46 AM
I can't access that site at work. Could somebody spell out the new stealth changes for me? Or anything else that might concern an Artful Dodger Drow Rogue.

Charity
2009-03-05, 08:52 AM
Don't know what the stealth changes are, just that there are some... There is very little for existing classes, all the feats are either new race/class specific or general for everyone... you might want to mc into Avenger though for their cool mc power to reroll hits on their assigned foe for two rounds/encounter, less chance of wiffing with your dailies.

RTGoodman
2009-03-05, 11:32 AM
DAMN do I want to play a Half-Orc and/or a Goliath now. They were my two favorite races in 3.x, and I've been waiting patiently (or not) for them since 4E, but now that I see them I can't wait any longer! Of course, I also ordered my copy via Amazon (albeit the US version, not the Japanese one), so here's to hopin' that maybe I get it early here, too.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-05, 11:33 AM
Is this snark? I don't speak 4Enese. :smallconfused:

We recalibrated the scale a while back. Your Natural Spell ("I have special abilities more powerful than your whole class!") is our Combat Expertise ("On average, I hit 5% more often than you do!")


I can't access that site at work. Could somebody spell out the new stealth changes for me? Or anything else that might concern an Artful Dodger Drow Rogue.

We believe it's just the last errata, printed in a book.

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 03:55 PM
Weapon Expertise is an interesting feat now, reading in to it further.
Very... interesting.
Choose a weapon group, you get a +1 bonus to all weapons of that group.
This bonus is without a type, and you can take the feat multiple times (each time specifying a new group).
There are many a weapon that has two groups (and possibly more in the future/in the book).

Since there is nothing that specifies the same source does not stack, you can get this feat tapping multiple weapon groups.
Greatspear has become amazing.

krossbow
2009-03-06, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Jools View Post
Melee Training: use stat of your choice for basic attacks. Chaladins rejoice!



So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome? :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2009-03-06, 04:05 PM
Sounds like Dashing Scoundrel, only, for everyone, as a feat not a (OOTS strip only) prestige class.

Myatar_Panwar
2009-03-06, 04:36 PM
So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome? :smallconfused:

Yes. Imagination!

http://www.yourpostcardsite.com/images/2323/imagination_border1.jpg

Tengu_temp
2009-03-06, 05:16 PM
Weapon Expertise is an interesting feat now, reading in to it further.
Very... interesting.
Choose a weapon group, you get a +1 bonus to all weapons of that group.
This bonus is without a type, and you can take the feat multiple times (each time specifying a new group).
There are many a weapon that has two groups (and possibly more in the future/in the book).

Since there is nothing that specifies the same source does not stack, you can get this feat tapping multiple weapon groups.
Greatspear has become amazing.

I'm pretty sure this is already sketchy by RAW, clearly not RAI, and no sane DM would ever allow it.

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 07:46 PM
I'm pretty sure this is already sketchy by RAW, clearly not RAI, and no sane DM would ever allow it.

Please do show me how this is sketchy by RAW. :smalltongue:
You get a +1 untyped bonus to the weapon group you designate (that scales).
You can take this feat multiple types, as said by the feat, though you must designate different weapon groups each time.
Weapon can have multiple weapon groups.
Untyped bonuses stack. It is made clear in the rules of this.

For example, Combat Reflexes gives you a +1 bonus to attack rolls with opportunity attacks. Unlike feat bonuses, however, untyped bonuses stack with themselves.
There is nothing stopping specific sources from stacking with itself.


I see nothing by RAW that makes this sketchy. Nothing.

Tengu_temp
2009-03-06, 08:09 PM
The fact that you those untyped bonuses come from taking the same feat several times is what makes it sketchy by RAW. Also, I'd like to take a look at the feat description itself and read it myself instead of relying on third parties that might have accidentally missed something - what if it's mentioned somewhere in the PHB2 that the bonuses from taking a single feat several times do not stack?

Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-06, 08:14 PM
And on top of that, if you make a Double Sword a Pact Blade, you could presumably select it for Implement Expertise, granting you a possible +9. :smalltongue:

Of course, this all hinges on how the feats are actually worded.

Asbestos
2009-03-06, 08:30 PM
Melee Training????

So they took something interesting from one class (Swordmages: Intelligent Whatever it was) and gave it to everyone. Whoopee. Maybe it only works for martial classes perhaps, whatever.



Also, how awesome is the Goliath Great Weapon Prowess feat? Its like Eldarin Soldier or Dwarven Weapon Training... but for two-handed melee weapons.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-06, 08:32 PM
Melee Training????

So they took something interesting from one class (Swordmages: Intelligent Whatever it was) and gave it to everyone. Whoopee.

Yes! Whoopee!

EDIT: *applause* :smile:

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 08:33 PM
The fact that you those untyped bonuses come from taking the same feat several times is what makes it sketchy by RAW. Also, I'd like to take a look at the feat description itself and read it myself instead of relying on third parties that might have accidentally missed something - what if it's mentioned somewhere in the PHB2 that the bonuses from taking a single feat several times do not stack?

RAW, Rules As Written. There is nothing in 4e that writes from the same source/from the same feat/etc.
Nothing.
Thus it's not a rule as written, since it has never been wrote.

also
Quote from Springs from that thread (the person with the book), who quoted it out of the PHB2:

Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th lvl and to +3 at 25th lvl.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

Asbestos
2009-03-06, 08:37 PM
Distant Advantage:
Gain combat advantage with ranged and area attacks against flanked enemies.

Now the rogue can just sit at the edge of combat with a crossbow, they don't even need to get messy.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-06, 08:53 PM
Now the rogue can just sit at the edge of combat with a crossbow, they don't even need to get messy.

Yaaay!

...what? The Ranger can do that, right? I don't see why getting another ranged class is such a bad idea.

Asbestos
2009-03-06, 09:05 PM
Yes! Whoopee!

EDIT: *applause* :smile:

I'm just saying, it makes the Swordmage feat redundant. IMO making a class specific feat open to everyone isn't that great an idea since it steps on the toes of the original class. Everyone gains a feat option, the Swordmage loses one.

Muyten
2009-03-06, 09:11 PM
RAW, Rules As Written. There is nothing in 4e that writes from the same source/from the same feat/etc.
Nothing.
Thus it's not a rule as written, since it has never been wrote.



Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-06, 09:22 PM
Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

Not really. All it says is that two Feat Bonuses (or any of the other typed bonuses) aren't added together. It goes on to say that Untyped Bonuses (which is what we are talking about here) situationally stack even with other Untyped Bonuses.

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 09:37 PM
Actually yes there is. Page 275 clearly states that two bonuses from feats do not add to the same roll. Thus you would not get to add both bonuses.

To reiterate Hawkeye with quotes...
The passage I believe you are referring to on page 275:

Bonuses: There’s one important rule for bonuses: Don’t
add together bonuses of the same type to the same roll or
score. If you have two bonuses of the same type that apply
to the same roll or score, use the higher bonus.
Type != Source.
Each type is described in that same entry, even. And in this untyped case...

Some bonuses are untyped (“a +2 bonus”). Most of these
are situational and add together with other bonus you have,
including other untyped bonuses.
Which is exactly the situation at hand.

Asbestos
2009-03-06, 09:42 PM
Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

I'm in this boat.

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 09:43 PM
I'm in this boat.

That doesn't stop it being legal by RAW preerrata. :smalltongue:
I'm not arguing whether it is RAI, will-be-errata'd, or DM unacceptable, I'm arguing it is RAW, simply, and that it is not even remotely sketchily RAW either.

I rarely actually apply things like this anyways, unless a GM has absolute blind faith in WotC's design - then I will use things like this to slap them.

Besides, it's fun to theorize and construct musings like this. Whether applied or not, it's like doing a word puzzle, sudoku, or calculus. It can just be fun.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-06, 10:20 PM
I'm just saying, it makes the Swordmage feat redundant. IMO making a class specific feat open to everyone isn't that great an idea since it steps on the toes of the original class. Everyone gains a feat option, the Swordmage loses one.

And that's a gain for seventeen classes. A pretty darn nice one, for twelve of them. Making the swordmage into slightly less of a special little snowflake? In comparison: not terrible.

Besides, it's hardly that tied to the Swordmage. Any other non-Strength defender (such as perhaps a Psionics user? Keep on hoping!) would want it just as much, and I shouldn't think it would be that unjustifiable flavorwise.

Which brings me to this post:


So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome? :smallconfused:

A swordmage can do this already because... why? Because of magic would be my bet, but the name "Intelligent Blademaster" implies that he can do it because he's just that smart.

In any case... magic is a perfectly good explanation, if "just that smart" won't work for you. A sorcerer is a living conduit of arcane might; he's so charismatic that he can tell the universe to set people on fire and it happens, so it's hardly unreasonable to think that his force of personality would have nothing to do with slashing you with the dagger--which he can use as an implement anyway, so clearly his influence does not stop before reaching the "bladed things" subset of "things in the universe".

A bard? If magic doesn't work for you, think of it as a natural extension of the use of Bluff to feint in combat, amplified by the bard's ridiculous skill at such--I mean, she can insult a man so hard that the man dies, even if the man in fact happens to be an ooze.

The druid uses Wisdom to maul people with his bear claws. Why should he suddenly switch to Strength when it's not his turn?

The avenger and paladin use Wisdom and Charisma for melee attacks. Must Pelor stop guiding their movements when it's not their turn, then?

The artificer can infuse her ammunition and thrown weapons with arcane power. Why does her alchemically-treated dagger use Intelligence when she throws it, but Strength if it stays in her hand?

Why does the rogue use Dexterity to attack on his turn, but Strength when it comes to attacking reflexively when he sees a vulnerable spot in his opponent's defense? Shouldn't an attack based on response time and stabbing at tiny openings be Dexterity?

The wizard, warlock, invoker, and all thirty other classes I'm forgetting? Magic! :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-06, 10:58 PM
Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th lvl and to +3 at 25th lvl.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

Wait, what? Is this a Paragon Feat, or did they just nullify Nimble Blade? :smallannoyed:

Also:

The new multiclass feats are awesome. They're pretty much what you'd expect, use the class features for a limited time. The druid one gives you one beast at will as an encounter and unlimited wild shape! Shaman one gives you unlimited call spirit but as a standard action.

They gave unlimited wild shape as a MC Feat? What ever happened to preserving signature Class Features for the classes? :smallannoyed: :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Oh, and I fished this link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/) out of the thread. If you want to stare at the pages of the PHB 2 yourself :smalltongue:

Reinboom
2009-03-06, 11:04 PM
Wait, what? Is this a Paragon Feat, or did they just nullify Nimble Blade? :smallannoyed:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090306

Heroic Tier.

Also, it stacks with Nimble Blade.
Nimble Blade is untyped.

The Minx
2009-03-06, 11:15 PM
Also, even if this trick is actually legal by RAW, good luck finding a DM who will allow it. And it will be errata-ed faster than you can blink.

But wasn't the whole design philosophy of 4e that this sort of fix by the DM would no longer be necessary? I hope you're right about the errata fix.

Sadly, I suspect this will happen more and more often as new material by different writers starts hitting the shelves.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-06, 11:22 PM
Also, it stacks with Nimble Blade.
Nimble Blade is untyped.

As is Weapon Expertise... oddly, since Weapon Focus is a Feat Bonus for a far weaker ability.

EDIT: Fished from the thread

Versatile Master
Prerequisite: 11th level, half-elf
Benefit: You can use the power you choose through your Dilettante racial trait as an at-will power.
If you choose the paragon multiclassing option you can choose powerss at 11th, 12th, and 20th level from any class, instead of only from your second class. You can also spend an action point to regain the use of an encounter power that you have already used during this encounter, instead of taking an extra action.


:eek:

By no means broken, but very, very good.

Tengu_temp
2009-03-06, 11:28 PM
But wasn't the whole design philosophy of 4e that this sort of fix by the DM would no longer be necessary? I hope you're right about the errata fix.

Sadly, I suspect this will happen more and more often as new material by different writers starts hitting the shelves.

It's not a fix, it's going with RAI. The whole design philosophy of 4e is to make a balanced system where every class will be strong and fun to play, and it managed to do that.

The problem here is that a large chunk of DND fandom has a habit of pulling strings and treating everything per book - nothing can be left to common sense for them, everything must be stated completely clearly or else they will interpret it the most abusable way possible. DND is the only RPG I know that has the definition of "dead" in the rules, because otherwise people would argue that they still can take actions after death, because the rules don't specify they cannot.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-06, 11:33 PM
DND is the only RPG I know that has the definition of "dead" in the rules, because otherwise people would argue that they still can take actions after death, because the rules don't specify they cannot.

I find it best to make an object lesson out of such players :smallamused:

TheEmerged
2009-03-06, 11:45 PM
There will never be an RPG rule system that is so good that a capable DM is not required :smallbiggrin:

Sites are blocked at work. Must get home faster...


DND is the only RPG I know that has the definition of "dead" in the rules, because otherwise people would argue that they still can take actions after death, because the rules don't specify they cannot.

Glad you qualified that with "I know" :smallredface: I'm having flashbacks to the "run while prone" insanity...

Reinboom
2009-03-07, 12:30 AM
It's not a fix, it's going with RAI. The whole design philosophy of 4e is to make a balanced system where every class will be strong and fun to play, and it managed to do that.

The problem here is that a large chunk of DND fandom has a habit of pulling strings and treating everything per book - nothing can be left to common sense for them, everything must be stated completely clearly or else they will interpret it the most abusable way possible. DND is the only RPG I know that has the definition of "dead" in the rules, because otherwise people would argue that they still can take actions after death, because the rules don't specify they cannot.

In a game built on the DM rather than the mechanics, I can understand this. As well as a game that uses terms as they should be in common sense. "Dead" = "Dead". Not that hard to put together.
However, given you follow this statement with my RAW arguing, I'm assuming I'm going to be considered as part of this 'DND fandom' that can not leave anything to common sense for this thread's purpose.
And for this, I argue with you more.

Once again, I'm arguing rather specific game terms. There is nothing about Untyped bonuses, weapon groups as specified, or feats gained in periods of levels, that can be left to "common sense", as this would insinuate that the common would be able to make something out of it.
These terms are defined. As far as I can see, I am pulling strings as much as "having a high strength is good for hitting things if that is the main stat for such, and higher strength is better."

ericgrau
2009-03-07, 12:30 AM
DND is the only RPG I know that has the definition of "dead" in the rules, because otherwise people would argue that they still can take actions after death, because the rules don't specify they cannot.

Actually, while dnd has a definition of "dead", it doesn't say you can't take actions after death. :smalleek:

The 3.5 rules for it are below. Dunno if they changed it in 4e:


Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

Enlong
2009-03-07, 12:53 AM
So someone can use charisma to hit now just because they're that awesome? :smallconfused:

Yes they can. (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=001711)

mrmaxmrmax
2009-03-07, 08:29 AM
There is nothing about Untyped bonuses, weapon groups as specified, or feats gained in periods of levels, that can be left to "common sense", as this would insinuate that the common would be able to make something out of it.

PHB 192: You can't take the same feat more than once (Paragraph 2)

PHB2 ?: You may take it multiple times, each time it applies to a different weapon group.

No common sense needed, right? It seems pretty clear.

Maxwell.

Douglas
2009-03-07, 08:44 AM
The problem comes from the fact that some weapons are in multiple weapon groups. Pick a weapon that's in two groups and take the feat once for each of those groups, and you now have two copies of the feat that both apply to the same weapon.

hamishspence
2009-03-07, 08:48 AM
3.5 PHB2 had a similar issue: Melee Weapon Mastery- had a flat bonus, could be taken for all three weapon types. I wonder how errata or sage advice handled it?

(in this case, typical weapon would be a Morningstar: 2 feats, two types of damage)

Tengu_temp
2009-03-07, 08:57 AM
However, given you follow this statement with my RAW arguing, I'm assuming I'm going to be considered as part of this 'DND fandom' that can not leave anything to common sense for this thread's purpose.


Depends. Would you try to pull the double Combat Expertise trick in a real game and argue with the DM that it's legal by the rules?

Cybren
2009-03-07, 11:33 AM
it happens[/I]

A nitpick here: the term charisma has etymological origins involving the concept of supernatural gift or divine favor, ergo it is not simply "cha base magic users are doing spells just cuase they're so suave" but that they apply the metaphorical "supernatural favor" definition of charisma literally.

Reinboom
2009-03-07, 12:08 PM
Depends. Would you try to pull the double Combat Expertise trick in a real game and argue with the DM that it's legal by the rules?

Depends on the DM and the game. :smalltongue:


PHB 192: You can't take the same feat more than once (Paragraph 2)

PHB2 ?: You may take it multiple times, each time it applies to a different weapon group.

No common sense needed, right? It seems pretty clear.

Maxwell.

I'm not sure you are picking on the same thing I was picking at with that statement.
If you are, you did it wrong or missed the point since both of those statements would mean very little to someone outside of D&D. Unlike the term "They're dead".

The other possibility I see that you might be arguing is counterclaiming rules, in which case, you need to also specify the "Specific Beats General" rule on page 11 of the PHB.

mrmaxmrmax
2009-03-07, 11:40 PM
PHB 227 says that dying involves three things: you are unconscious, you are at 0 or fewer HP, and you must make a death save every round.

The unconscious condition very strictly says that you cannot take actions.

As for my previous post, I seem to think I replied in the wrong thread. I wonder if I'm doing the same thing here. Nah.

Maxwell.

Matthew
2009-03-17, 12:49 AM
Aw man, I was in Japan until yesterday...

RTGoodman
2009-03-17, 01:14 AM
Aw man, I was in Japan until yesterday...

I noticed you haven't been around in a while. Have a good time abroad?


In other news, though, I got an e-mail on Saturday (I believe) from Amazon telling me my PHB2 had been shipped, so I'm HOPING it'll definitely be here sometime tomorrow. Er, well, today, since it's already 2:15am. Either way, I'm super-excited!

Kurald Galain
2009-03-17, 05:00 AM
Wait, what? Is this a Paragon Feat, or did they just nullify Nimble Blade?
It's objective power creep. The PHB1 contains several feats, most of them at paragon, that give you +1 to hit in certain circumstances. Although these do stack with Weapon Expertise.

I consider this bad design: it is a feat that every character will want to take (particularly at higher levels: +2 to hit for a single feat is huge), and is significantly more powerful than pretty much every other feat.


They gave unlimited wild shape as a MC Feat?
Yes, but note that wild shape doesn't really do anything.

Matthew
2009-03-17, 02:39 PM
I noticed you haven't been around in a while. Have a good time abroad?

That I did. Pretty knackered now, though; I think I need a holiday from my holiday... :smallbiggrin:

Though I didn't see the D20/4e PHB2, I did see a Japanese version of B2 Little Keep on the Borderlands, which was cool. My girlfriend had bought it to help with prospective translations of some of the new simulacrum material.

Should be interesting to see what the PHB2 finally consists of, anyway! I definitely would have gone looking for it if I had known it was vailable in Japan, even if just for the bragging rights...

Charity
2009-03-17, 04:24 PM
Bragging rites recinded Matt cos I have my new shiny...
*strokes fluffy white cat*