Two Possible Methods By Which The Interfiends Will Or Already Have Tricked V[Spolier]

[JaxGaret]

Okay, so here are the two possibilities.

As part of the contract, the Interfiends get V's soul for "the same amount of time" that V is in the Soul Splice. Now, the question is: are they talking about relative time, or absolute time? Either way, the fiends can screw V over; if it is absolute time, when V dies, they can translocate V to a plane where time runs very very slowly. That way they get V for eons of torture, seduction, etc. even if it only seems like an hour. If it is relative time, it's even worse for V - they can translocate V to a plane where time runs very very quickly. That way V can spend what seems like an hour on the plane, but before the hour even ends, everything and everyone is gone, or it's the end of time.

The Time Stop was a ruse. There was no Time Stop. V's mate is already dead, V was too late before V even took the bargain.

These combined with something else I've considered:

The fiends may threaten to kill V and collect on their debt once V comes out of V's Soul Splice, whilst explaining to V the above outlined time alteration shenanigans. Thus V would presumably hold onto the Splice as long as V can, giving V's gestalt entity, wracked with grief over the death of V's mate, more time to tilt the balance in favor of Evil.

The best thing about this is that the first part doesn't even have to be possible/viable for the third part to work.

Sooo if the fiends know what they're doing (which they do).... yeah, V is screwed.

My apologies if any of this has been posted already, I didn't see any of it in my perusal of the forums.

[Aki]

Well, I hope none of them are true, but that's "hope" and not "have reason to believe". :smalleek:

There is one thing, though, with regards to your second possibility:
The fiend who mentioned the Time Stop is the one who seems to be Lawful. I'm not sure how Faustian bargains work in D&D, never having been in a position to make one, but it seems more likely that a Lawful Evil being wouldn't actually lie in the process--present facts in the way most likely to gain the desired outcome, yes, but not make things up.

Of course, Orange Fiend didn't mention anything about the duration of the Time Stop. So the Time Stop might have ended seconds after it began.

[silvadel]

Nope -- if the time stop were not in effect then the whole bargain is invalid and V gets off. These fiends arent that stupid.

Personally I think the way V is tricked is that V is already dead. V is a vampire and will stay a vampire when this whole thing is over.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

nice theory's. I could tell right from your name, you read shannara books right? I read the original 3. Best books ever.

[Theodoriph]

Okay, so here are the two possibilities.

As part of the contract, the Interfiends get V's soul for "the same amount of time" that V is in the Soul Splice. Now, the question is: are they talking about relative time, or absolute time? Either way, the fiends can screw V over; if it is absolute time, when V dies, they can translocate V to a plane where time runs very very slowly. That way they get V for eons of torture, seduction, etc. even if it only seems like an hour. If it is relative time, it's even worse for V - they can translocate V to a plane where time runs very very quickly. That way V can spend what seems like an hour on the plane, but before the hour even ends, everything and everyone is gone, or it's the end of time.

The Time Stop was a ruse. There was no Time Stop. V's mate is already dead, V was too late before V even took the bargain.

These combined with something else I've considered:

The fiends may threaten to kill V and collect on their debt once V comes out of V's Soul Splice, whilst explaining to V the above outlined time alteration shenanigans. Thus V would presumably hold onto the Splice as long as V can, giving V's gestalt entity, wracked with grief over the death of V's mate, more time to tilt the balance in favor of Evil.

The best thing about this is that the first part doesn't even have to be possible/viable for the third part to work.

Sooo if the fiends know what they're doing (which they do).... yeah, V is screwed.

My apologies if any of this has been posted already, I didn't see any of it in my perusal of the forums.



Spoiler 1:

Since the fiends are the ones who drafted the contract, any ambiguity is resolved in Vs favour. It was the fiends responsibility, as drafters, to ensure that their contract was clear and specific. If they failed to do so, V gets the benefit of the doubt. Either that, or the contract is void.

E.g.

I sign a contract for the delivery of goods by the ship Lusitania.

I'm expecting the goods via the Lusitania in October.

The other signer is expecting to deliver the goods via another ship called Lusitania in December.

There's no contract.

Spoiler 2:

That would void the contract.

Spoiler 3:

See 1 and 2.

[JaxGaret]

Spoiler 1:

Since the fiends are the ones who drafted the contract, any ambiguity is resolved in Vs favour. It was the fiends responsibility, as drafters, to ensure that their contract was clear and specific. If they failed to do so, V gets the benefit of the doubt. Either that, or the contract is void.

E.g.

I sign a contract for the delivery of goods by the ship Lusitania.

I'm expecting the goods via the Lusitania in October.

The other signer is expecting to deliver the goods via another ship called Lusitania in December.

There's no contract.

As I stated above, neither interpretation of what is meant by 'time' in the contract - as absolute or relative - works in V's favor. There is no argument that V can make to get out of that. It's a lose-lose situation.

At best, V can argue for it being absolute time. They still own his soul for that period of time, and can move it to whatever location they desire.


There is one thing, though, with regards to your second possibility:
The fiend who mentioned the Time Stop is the one who seems to be Lawful. I'm not sure how Faustian bargains work in D&D, never having been in a position to make one, but it seems more likely that a Lawful Evil being wouldn't actually lie in the process--present facts in the way most likely to gain the desired outcome, yes, but not make things up.

Of course, Orange Fiend didn't mention anything about the duration of the Time Stop. So the Time Stop might have ended seconds after it began.


Spoiler 2:

That would void the contract.


Nope -- if the time stop were not in effect then the whole bargain is invalid and V gets off. These fiends arent that stupid.

Ah, but the Time Stop was most certainly not part of the bargain. The trade was Soul Splice for V afterlife time. The Time Stop (or "time stop" if it was a ruse) was a freebie.

[The Minx]

Ah, but the Time Stop was most certainly not part of the bargain. The trade was Soul Splice for V afterlife time. The Time Stop (or "time stop" if it was a ruse) was a freebie.

Just to point out something I said on another thread on this topic: the fiends never actually say that they will collect AFTER V dies. It could be that they get control of his soul BEFORE he dies, that would be potentially much worse, since he is questing for the gates. It was V himself who asked whether they would gain control of his eternal soul after his death, they corrected him and said no, only for an equal amount of time as the soul splice, each, but they were silent on the matter of whether it was posthumous.

BTW: as someone else pointed out in another thread, while the soul splice itself only guarantees the fiends control of V for a limited duration, any evil karma he might earn himself during that time is another issue all together. After all, he is supposed to be in control of the gestalt entity, and therefore is presumably responsible for what it does. If he goes on an evil rampage, that is on his own account, and he may well go to the infernal planes as a result, even if the actual deal with the fiends doesn't require him to do so "on paper".

[Selene]

Just to point out something I said on another thread on this topic: the fiends never actually say that they will collect AFTER V dies. It could be that they get control of his soul BEFORE he dies, that would be potentially much worse, since he is questing for the gates. It was V himself who asked whether they would gain control of his eternal soul after his death, they corrected him and said no, only for an equal amount of time as the soul splice, each, but they were silent on the matter of whether it was posthumous.

Yes that.

It never even occurred to me to think "after he's dead" until V brought it up himself. At which time I went "whoa, V! They didn't say after death!" I think he's in for a rude awakening about that.

As for the OP's theories, what would they have to gain from any of them? Amusement? After pulling any of those off, all they get is "haha, elf! We screwed you!" Anything is possible, of course. But I have the feeling they've got something bigger in mind.

[ericgrau]

Nope, IMO they haven't pulled any such tricks at all, they've been completely honest with Vaarsuvius, Vaarsuvius has complete control over the evil souls exactly like they said, etc. And yet the fiends have already got what they want: Vaarsuvius has already been tempted to rely on magic and to rely on herself instead of others. Done, simple as that.

And - as icing on the cake which is not at all necessary to make the temptation complete - Vaarsuvius will soon be further tempted to abuse his power even without any help from the fiends. Her power trip and recent unclear thought with enmity towards friends is all it takes. Tips from the 3 evil casters may or may not help, at V's discretion.

[Kaolix]

Has anyone yet pointed out that while what they said about V being 'in complete control' would not matter at all if the other souls are able to simply make V evil ('alignment feedback'). V can be in complete control and still end up damned eternally if the result of the soul splice is to make him evil.
Hell, if its possible for the souls to interact with V's via speaking to him as shown, who says one of them couldn't just charm or dominate him or similar? Voila, V is still in 'complete control' of his body, but due to charm he wishes to obey one or more of the other souls.

Very much against the SPIRIT of what was said, but by the letter? Entirely feasible.

[Doug Lampert]

Nope, IMO they haven't pulled any such tricks at all, they've been completely honest with Vaarsuvius, Vaarsuvius has complete control over the evil souls exactly like they said, etc. And yet the fiends have already got what they want: Vaarsuvius has already been tempted to rely on magic and to rely on herself instead of others. Done, simple as that.

And - as icing on the cake which is not at all necessary to make the temptation complete - Vaarsuvius will soon be further tempted to abuse his power even without any help from the fiends. Her power trip and recent unclear thought with enmity towards friends is all it takes. Tips from the 3 evil casters may or may not help, at V's discretion.

Pretty well agreed. It doesn't take any fancy interpretations to screw V.

V gets control over 3 souls for X time each, the three of them get V's soul for X time each, order and timing explicitly not specified.

What does control of the soul MEAN in this case? It works in the living world (see what V is doing), it includes complete control of the entity's arcane power (see what V is doing), it can include melding with another entity (see what V is doing). V is getting control of souls, the deal is claimed to be "fair" in that the fiends get the same thing.

Assume this is true, the deal is as described and what V is getting is control of souls and what they'll get is control of a soul. That means that any of the fiends can possess V at any time after the splice ends and gain complete control of his actions and powers as well as the fiend's own powers. This is bad.

But assume V is correct in hir interpretation of what the deal means. (Hah!) Assume that the fiends only get V's soul after V's death and that this control doesn't extend to making him do things like return to the living world and murder and soul bind his family and assume that they release V after their control ends. Where do they release him? Not specified. They can "let his soul go" in the center of hell after his service ends and then laugh as Asmodias eats his soul without violating a single word of the deal. V ASSUMES he'll somehow be able to travel to a good plane and be admitted.

[Reluctance]

If infernal powers always monkey-pawed their side of the deals they made, pretty soon such deals would go from "rare" to "nonexistent". V's mate and children will avoid being soul bound and probably even come out of this alive. It's in both the fiends' and the story's best interests that V get to actually do the very thing that compelled him to take the deal in the first place.

And while the fiends are certainly hoping that this taste of evil will cause V to walk further down their path, again story trumps legalese here. V has handed the fiends three "interfere at will" cards. It's best if the first one is used early on to highlight just what V has gotten himself into.
Personal guess, I'm seeing V reuniting with the Azurites fleet and then being used as antipaladin weaponry.
Second time will be TBA. Third time will be held until the story is almost finished, so "When will the fiends make their move?" tension and threads can have the same energy as "Four words coming?" ones used to.

[Dixieboy]

Option 2 is not a possibility

It was said by a devil and is thus true (Waaait, maybe it was the demon or yugo... wutever that said it *DUN DUN DUUUUUN*)

[40kenthusiast]

Well, the list of ways that the fiends have tricked V is staggeringly long.

First off, it's an evil act to deal with them, at all. The moral course for V to follow would be to permit his family's destruction/enslavement rather than contribute to the lower power's cause with another soul. Ultimately they will be together for eternity, if long delayed by the dragon's antics.

Both good and evil typically have good ends, its the means that seperate the two. V, after exhausting his good means (his personal efforts, magic, his friends, etc.) in the pursuit of a good end (saving his family) has moved on to evil means. Villains use evil means in pursuit of an evil end, Archvillains use evil means in pursuit of a good end. V looks like the latter.

It's also worth noting that even if dealing with fiends was a morally neutral affair, done correctly, V trying it in his current state is the equivalent of drunk driving. He's not thinking straight, and he knows it. Making deals with the lower powers while impaired leaves you responsible for whatever the gap between your ideal performance and that which you actually did ends up being.

On the other hand, V isn't trying to be lawful good, he's a LN type, he can probably make a deal with fiends without changing alignment. It gets worse though, when we consider the details of this deal.

It's worth noting that the deal itself puts V in position of slaver to three sentient beings. He controls them against their will and uses their power, presumably to destructive ends. Even if we took the fiends out of the picture coercing someone into dragonslaying is shady behavior.

Also noteworthy is that its highly likely that the spells that the three know will have the Evil descriptor, and hence be innately corruptive to employ. I doubt that those three stocked up on meteor swarms and lightning bolts, they probably are loaded down with extremely evil homegrown wooj.

Even with all this, V could probably keep his neutral alignment intact if he stops after slaying the dragon. I don't think he will, however. He's facing the ongoing round by round question of what good he can do this round vs. 3 rounds of torment. As long as the list of things he can get up to includes 1: Reuniting the party, 2: Tracking down and destroying Xykon and 3: closing the Gate he's going to be able to convince himself to go forward using the same non-logic he reached the conclusion to deal with fiends with in the first place.

After all, if its moral to endure suffering in exchange for evil power to destroy one villain (the black dragon) and save one set of future victims (his family) then its moral to do the same to another (Xykon) and another set of future villains (things that are in future Xykon's vicinity). V will keep going as long as he can.

The aftermath is perhaps even uglier than the action in this case. V will be returned to his base power, quite possibly with several of the things he wanted to get done left undone. He'll also have alienated pretty much everyone he encounters (if they can see his speech bubbles text and/or he gets rampantly destructive) He might well want to renegotiate with the trio. You know, get in a good trancing (or not) and reestablish the pact to do it right this time.

This is, of course, presuming that everything goes well with V's assault on the dragon. Given this comic's "karma-riffic" tendencies I can see him catching them in an AOE and taking them out. The question then is whether he'd release the fusion and go about getting them raised in an ordinary fashion, or just zap to the fleet and grab Durkon. I think the latter, as it provides an excuse to say juiced up.

Finally, with the pact stuff over and done with, the question arises as to what the Fiends want with his soul. I concur with the majority of forum goers who point out that they said nothing about the control being post-death.

Some things that occur when one considers the fiend splice setup and their chosen form of payment are as follows:

#1: Nothing was said about the hour being continuous. It was heavily implied, but they could probably make a case that they are permitted to split their hours up, leaving him with a nigh-infinite number of combat encounters of evil, punctuated by periods of helpless raging.

#2: They never guaranteed that he wouldn't be soul-spliced while under their control. They might well remake super-V anytime they want. After all, if its their service they can do it whenever, not just in fair exchange. Presumably he wouldn't incur further penalties for this sort of thing, but the fiends could do quite a bit with Uber-V to help the grand cause of evil.

#3: They never guaranteed that he would remain in his body during their control. They could use him as the payment for someone else's soul splice, and sell the fact that the primary good guy's party wizard would fall over for the splice's duration as a side benefit. A lot of low level bad guys would jump at the chance to grab the powers of a level 10+ wizard for an hour or so. A pyramid scheme of soul binds seems eminently feasible.

#4: The fiends are the only ones who know about the Soul Bind payment thing, and V probably won't tell anyone else, as he thinks it'll be post-mortem. Thus, V will simply appear to flip out at some point, to his party's dismay. The Fiends could well sell the party the "cure" to what's afflicting V without revealing themselves as the architect of his suffering.

I applaud the artist for portraying the fiends as properly faustian. From the moment V started talking to them he was finished.

[quick_comment]

The subjective time thing doesnt make a difference to V.

No matter the flow of time, he experiences only 1 hour of apparent time. He cant get more or less tortured based on the local time flow.

He might take issue with emerging from the hour with everyone he knows and loves being long dead though, but since I doubt Rich is going to have V sit out the rest of the story, I doubt that is going to happen

[Morgan Wick]

The Time Stop was a ruse. There was no Time Stop. V's mate is already dead, V was too late before V even took the bargain.

I've also seen it suggested that there was no Time Stop, and V's kids were never in danger, because the fiends were in league with the dragon and imp the whole time. But I've seen less of those epileptic trees recently.

[Kid Dynamo]

Nope, IMO they haven't pulled any such tricks at all, they've been completely honest with Vaarsuvius, Vaarsuvius has complete control over the evil souls exactly like they said, etc. And yet the fiends have already got what they want: Vaarsuvius has already been tempted to rely on magic and to rely on herself instead of others. Done, simple as that.

And - as icing on the cake which is not at all necessary to make the temptation complete - Vaarsuvius will soon be further tempted to abuse his power even without any help from the fiends. Her power trip and recent unclear thought with enmity towards friends is all it takes. Tips from the 3 evil casters may or may not help, at V's discretion.

Bingo!

If you all haven't noticed, Rich has been hammering us with the fiends non-standard practices. This is NOT the typical twisted contract. The fiends already got V to accept the soul splice WITHOUT tricking him, them appealed to his ego and pride, which is the same way they are going to maintain control over him. If anything, the temptation of the power of the soul splice is what will turn V evil, especially if he goes back for another 'taste' of the power by making another, potentially worse deal with the fiends after the splice ends. Seriously, look at who is writing this, and the way he has written the comic before, this is not going to be like every other 'sell your soul' scenario.

Especially, what does screwing V over and torturing him actually get the fiends? Nothing (his time in the lower planes might actually be a paradise prepared by the fiends for him, to lower his guard to more deals with them). However, what does getting a already powerful elven wizard hooked on their soul splicing get the fiends? At least an emissary on the material plane that they have control over (by not allowing him more soul splices unless V undertakes X quest for them), and also proving to their bosses that the IFCC works.