4e- The Rapier, what is it good for?

[Asbestos]

2nd thread about 4e weapons... hmm..

Anyway, the rapier. Its a superior weapon that is not so superior. Its a 1d8, 1-handed (non-versatile), +3 proficiency, light blade. It may appear attractive at first to a rogue, but they're better off sticking with their daggers, doubleswords, or parrying daggers (if they're a small character). As it is, its only a good choice for characters that MC into rogue. For example a Swordmage/Rogue of any size can benefit from it as its the biggest damage die one-handed light blade there is. Does an extra 2d6 of damage 1/encounter make up for doing 1d8 instead of 1d10? Probably not, but if you MC rogue you'll want it. It really isn't that great for many other characters (sword and board warlord that MCs rogue... basically anything that needs a one-handed light blade and doesn't have rogue as their primary class.)

Now, the Spiked Chain wasn't that superior either once the Adventurer's Vault came out and we now had a +3, 1d10 reach weapon. That kind of makes the +3 2d4 reach weapon less enticing. But then came along the Spiked Chain Mastery multiclass feat in a recent Dragon article. Now Spiked Chains are useful to Tempest Fighters and Rangers (being able to attack from a non-adjacent square helps mitigate the glass cannoness of the Ranger) and certain high level rogue builds. Basically, it made it more useful at the cost of some versatility (can't multiclass) and added in some nice power swap feats to get even more out of the weapon.

My proposal, a weapon mastery feat for the Rapier. However, I'm not sure what to add on to make it better. I'll start a list, that I'll update, of suggestions for what base bonus should be added on.

[Asbestos]

Proposals for properties to be added to the Rapier via a Weapon Mastery Multiclass feat. Unless stated otherwise each property is a separate proposal. For example, the feat may lend proficiency in the rapier and add the defensive property to the weapon, not add defensive and high crit to the weapon.

Proposed additions:
Defensive
Increase Proficiency bonus to +4
High Crit
Feint as a minor action to gain combat advantage 1/encounter.

[Asbestos]

*reserved for power swap feats*
I'm thinking Dex should be the ability used for these.


Going to ask to get this moved over to homebrewing after seeing some initial response.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, in Core the Rapier is very useful for high-damage Rogues (particularly Halflings). Thanks to the weapon multiplier effect, you lose a lot more damage using a dagger on a 3[w] attack than you'd think. For Assassins, the Rapier is practically required.

Double-Swords are an abomination for many reasons, one being that a Rogue who can't Sneak Attack with a Longsword can Sneak Attack with an unwieldy monstrosity of a weapon :smallannoyed:

[Grynning]

IMO, you should never houserule in things that break the mold for other things that are similar. No other weapon currently in the game has a +4 proficiency bonus, and attack bonus is very valuable in 4E. +4 prof would make it the *best* weapon for any light blade user, rather than one that is in line with other Superior weapons.

Personally, I think Rapiers should have the High Crit property, and I believe there should be some duelist/swashbucklery type feats for it.

An example:

Cunning Fencer (Paragon)
Prequisites: Dex 15, Proficiency with the Rapier
When wielding a Rapier in your main hand, you may make a Bluff check against an adjacent enemy to gain combat advantage as a minor action. You can only gain this benefit against a given enemy once per encounter.

[Asbestos]

IMO, you should never houserule in things that break the mold for other things that are similar. No other weapon currently in the game has a +4 proficiency bonus, and attack bonus is very valuable in 4E. +4 prof would make it the *best* weapon for any light blade user, rather than one that is in line with other Superior weapons.

Technically rogues have a +4 proficiency with daggers. This would just make it so rogues have the option of 1d8 damage vs a decrease to hit for +1 AC (either way their daggers or shurikens are the best options for ranged attacks)

The +4 would make the weapon attractive to rogues, swordmages (a bonus to hit at the cost of some damage since they would go bastard sword otherwise) and rangers (again, bonus to hit at cost of damage dice).

Remember, its a multiclass feat so someone that takes it couldn't multiclass into something else (unless they're a bard).

Also, just a proposal of course.

[Grynning]

Technically rogues have a +4 proficiency with daggers. This would just make it so rogues have the option of 1d8 damage vs a decrease to hit for +1 AC (either way their daggers or shurikens are the best options for ranged attacks)

The +4 would make the weapon attractive to rogues, swordmages (a bonus to hit at the cost of some damage since they would go bastard sword otherwise) and rangers (again, bonus to hit at cost of damage dice).


Making it a +4 weapon makes it a non-choice for rogues - Dagger +4 1d4, Shortsword +3 1d6...or Rapier +4 1d8 for a feat. They would all use Rapiers. And on the subject of Swordmages and Rangers, I haven't seen any that use bastard swords. Most prefer to spend their feats on other things in my experience.



Remember, its a multiclass feat so someone that takes it couldn't multiclass into something else (unless they're a bard).


I'm not following you here. What's a multiclass feat? Weapon Proficiency?

Edit: I re-read your original post again, and I'm guessing you mean that the +4 and Defensive properties would be added to the Rapier only if you took a Weapon MC feat like those in the Dragon Article. If that's what you meant, it would be more clear if you said "The feat would grant a +1 to attack rolls with the Rapier and give it the Defensive property" or something like that.

[Asbestos]

Edit: I re-read your original post again, and I'm guessing you mean that the +4 and Defensive properties would be added to the Rapier only if you took a Weapon MC feat like those in the Dragon Article. If that's what you meant, it would be more clear if you said "The feat would grant a +1 to attack rolls with the Rapier and give it the Defensive property" or something like that.

Sorry, its an 'or' decision as is, not both properties. Each line under the 'Proposals' is a different base effect. It being +4 AND defensive makes it strictly better than the double sword. Either or makes it a good choice for rogues, but not the best. The power swap feats (one encounter, one utility, and one daily) are to be figured out later and should help make it more attractive/interesting at the cost of a power and a feat.

[Asbestos]

+4 prof would make it the *best* weapon for any light blade user, rather than one that is in line with other Superior weapons.


I should add that the proposed change, the Weapon Mastery Feat, isn't supposed to bring it in line with other superior weapons so much as to make it just a bit better.

For example the net is a +2 proficiency 1d6 heavy thrown off-hand weapon. As is, its basically a javelin with another property tacked on. With the mastery feat hits with the net also slows the target hit by it. The whip is basically a dagger with reach, but with the mastery feat it also tacks a -2 to attack on the enemy (against a target of choice)

As is the rapier is a longsword with a property removed (which actually increases its versatility, ironically) and the weapon type changed. It is pretty much 'in-line' with other superior weapons. The only superior weapons that fudge things are the double-weapons because they have so many properties added on.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Personally, I think Rapiers should have the High Crit property, and I believe there should be some duelist/swashbucklery type feats for it.

High Crit sounds like a lovely houserule for Rapiers. It's simple, differentiates the Rapier from similar splatbook items, and makes thematic sense.

[TheOOB]

From a mathmatical stand point, the rapier is a perfectally viable weapon. A dagger will have a 5% higher hit rate(and thus do 5% more damage overall), but a rapier has an average damage per hit 2*W more then the dagger(and it gains a greater benefit from critical). If all you care about is damage, then the rapier is the superior weapon, because in most cases 2*W will be more then 5% of your damage. For example, just using basic attacks, assume a level 1 character with a dexterity of 18 and a target with an armor class of 15.

For a dagger: We have a hit rate of 55% (attack bonus of +5 vs AC 15 means a 10 or greater is required to hit), and an average damage of 6.5 per hit(2.5 for dagger, 4 for dexterity), for an overall average of 3.575 damage per an attack.(6.5*55%)

For a rapier: We have a hit rate of 50% (attack bonus of +4 vs AC 15 means a 11 or greater is required to hit), and an average damage of 8.5 per hit(4.5 for rapier, 4 for dexterity), for an overall damage of 4.25 per attack.

Thus, the rapier deals more damage, and the gap will get bigger the higher the [W] multiplier is. On the other hand, the more extra sources of damage there is, the smaller the difference is.

Same situation with sneak attack

Dagger: 55% hit rate, 13.5 average damage per hit, total average 7.425 damage per attack.

Rapier: 50% hit rate, 15.5 average damage per hit, total average 7.75 damage per attack.

A smaller difference. Once again, this time with the brutal scoundrel class feature(str 16), and the backstabber feat

Dagger: 55% hit rate, 18.5 average damage per hit, total average 10.175 per damage per attack.

Rapier: 50% hit rate, 20.5 average damage per hit, total average 10.25 damage per attack.

An even smaller difference, but the rapier is still outperforming the dagger in damage. And to look at the other end of the scale, lets image a situation where the same character is using a 3[W] attack, with no sneak attack.

Dagger: 55% hit rate, 11.5 average damage per hit, total average 6.325 damage per attack.

Rapier: 50% hit rate, 17.5 average damage per hit, total average 8.75

That's a pretty significant difference.

So, with a little math we see that in most situations, the rapier out damages the dagger. The higher the weapon damage multiplier is, the bigger an advantage the rapier gets, but conversely the bigger the static damage modifiers are, the smaller the gap becomes(and at extra cases the dagger will outperform the rapier in damage).

The dagger is still a good weapon. It doesn't require a feat, it outdamages the shortsword much easier then it out damages the rapier(though the shortsword is still better with high [W] attacks or with low modifiers), it can be thrown, and the dagger master paragon path is quite good.

[Asbestos]

Indeed, but the (horrible) double sword gives a medium sized rogue what amounts to a defensive rapier at the same cost (a feat)

My goal here is to make it even better at the added cost of multiclassing versatility. The issue is, it is underutilized (except within core), much like the spiked chain and I thought it could use a little bit of a boost.

I suspect that WotC might actually come out with more Weapon Mastery feats themselves for a number of superior weapons.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah, but compare it to the Double-Sword - it is strictly worse than that.

[Knaight]

That and damage calculations become somewhat of a moot point when there are a lot of minions running around, and they tend to be prevalent. Might have to do with a lot of them being the equal to one PC, finally allowing swarms in D&D without a lot of unnecessary tracking(not counting vermin swarms, and the mob rules also did this), and how classic minions are in fantasy. That and throwing capabilities are really nice.

[AgentPaper]

I think a better option would just be to remove the "light blade" property from the double sword.

[TheOOB]

That and damage calculations become somewhat of a moot point when there are a lot of minions running around, and they tend to be prevalent. Might have to do with a lot of them being the equal to one PC, finally allowing swarms in D&D without a lot of unnecessary tracking(not counting vermin swarms, and the mob rules also did this), and how classic minions are in fantasy. That and throwing capabilities are really nice.

In the games I've played(and ran) minions are actually a little rare, usually only used if I there is actually some enemies who can take advantage of having large numbers of weak minions. Minions are cool, but they get stale if you fight them too often.

To be fair, I don't have adventurer's vault, but from what I've heard they are focusing on making superior weapons more then just higher damage weapons.

Still, a rapier does allow you to carry something in your off hand, and a throwing dagger or hand crossbow would not be a bad idea.

Perhaps the best option would be to make fencing paragon path?

[AgentPaper]

I like the fencing feat chain idea better. You shouldn't have to be a paragon to be a fencer. Of course, a paragon path that focuses on fencing as well would compliment it nicely.

[TheOOB]

I would also agree about the double blade though, any two-handed weapon is not a light blade.

[Kurald Galain]

For a dagger: We have a hit rate of 55% (attack bonus of +5 vs AC 15 means a 10 or greater is required to hit),

A couple of problems with your statement. You overlook that most powers have an additional effect that, of course, only triggers on a hit. Likewise, magical weapons (and bracers etc) boost your damage, but only on a hit. Furthermore, most of the time characters aren't using at-will attacks (because all their encounter and daily powers are usually better). And finally, a well-played rogue will have combat advantage 95% of the time.

Rapier isn't bad, but really not worth a feat. But they're certainly stylish.

[AgentPaper]

A couple of problems with your statement. You overlook that most powers have an additional effect that, of course, only triggers on a hit. Likewise, magical weapons (and bracers etc) boost your damage, but only on a hit. Furthermore, most of the time characters aren't using at-will attacks (because all their encounter and daily powers are usually better). And finally, a well-played rogue will have combat advantage 95% of the time.

Rapier isn't bad, but really not worth a feat. But they're certainly stylish.

You should note that he did include sneak attack damage in his calculations.

[Kurald Galain]

You should note that he did include sneak attack damage in his calculations.

I did. But you should note that he includes it as a special case, and he bases his conclusion on the cases without sneak attack.

He also notes that in case of sneak attack, the damage difference is "even smaller" (less than 0.1 point). That difference is certainly not worth a feat, and if you take into account static damage bonuses and additional effects on a hit, then it gets even clearer.

It follows that the rapier is mechanically better only if you're an inexperienced player (because if you're more experienced, you'll have CA pretty much all the time, and static damage bonuses, and you won't be using at-wills nearly as much).

[Joringel]

That non-versitle part is very important for one particular race: Halflings. (And for that matter, gnomes, and every other Small race.)

A halfling paladin or fighter (or for that matter 2W ranger) who uses a shield has two good weapon choices: Short Sword (d6 with +3 proficiency) or Scimitar (d8 with +2 proficiency.)

The rapier gives the halfling bladeslinger the best of both worlds.

[AgentPaper]

Okay, so I made myself an excel sheet with the difference in average damage. This is using a brutal scoundrel with backstabber and 18 dex 16 str, so X[W]+4(dex)+2d8(SA)+3(str), or +16 average at level 1. This same rogue would have a +7 to hit with a rapier, or +8 with a dagger. Assuming an enemy with 14 AC and you have combat advantage, you deal .575 more damage with the rapier with a 1[W] attack, 1.95 more damage with a 2[W] attack, and 3.325 more with a 3[W] attack. If you have more +hit modifiers or target a lower defense, the gap gets bigger. This makes dagger better against high-level and high-defense monsters, while a rapier is better for low-defense and lower level monsters. The break point comes when you've got less than a 50% chance to hit, which is where a dagger becomes strictly better, and it's not until you have closer to a 75% chance to hit where rapier is really noticeably better.

Strictly better than a dagger? Not really. Worth a feat? Yes, though it's by no means required, and other feats will probably come first, such as Backstabber and Nimble Blade.

[TheOOB]

I never said the rapier was better then the dagger, I just pointed out that if all you care about is raw damage output the rapier will be a better weapon most of the time. I personally prefer daggers, because I would rather hit with my special abilities then miss(and I love the daggermaster Paragon Path with some nasty magic weapons).

The dagger can outdamage the rapier in some cases, but only if your non-weapon damage is very high compared to your weapon damage.

For example, take the following situation:

Dagger
Accuracy: 35%/55%/75%
Damage: 30(2.5 weapon, 5 dexterity, 3 enhancement, 13.5 sneak attack(backstabber), 4 brutal scoundrel, 2 weapon focus)
Average Damage Per Attack: 10.5/16.5/22.5

Rapier
Accuracy: 30%/50%/70%
Damage: 32(4.5 weapon, 5 dexterity, 3 enhancement, 13.5 sneak atack(backstabber), 4 brutal scoundrel, 2 weapon focus)
Average Damage Per Attack: 9.6/16/22.4

If you get your damage mods high enough, the dagger will outdamage the rapier, but that requires pretty high damage mods, and the rapier will still do more damage if you are performing high weapon damage attacks in most cases. Also, as shown above, the higher the accuracy is, the less of a difference the daggers bonus makes.

For most characters, the rapier is a better choice for damage, though some characters will find the dagger better. In any case the dagger still has uses. Rapier worth it? Totally. Required, no way.

[skywalker]

I think the real problem here is not that the rapier sucks and needs to be fixed, it's that the double-sword sucks and needs to be fixed.

Unfortunately, if you fix the double sword, you mess with the tempest fighter (because of language about "light weapons," etc.) among others.

I'm not a member of the "ban double weapons!" crowd, but I'm certainly in favor of fixing them post haste.

[TheOOB]

Really, you just have to make the double bladed sword not a light blade. As a heavy blade it works fine(as there is a superior heavy blade, the bastard sword and fullblade that do more damage balancing things out).

The tempest doesn't care if you use a heavy or a light blade, it just cares if the weapon is considered off-hand.

[Yakk]

I thought the Tempest Fighter needed off-hand weapons, not light blades.

[Grynning]

Isn't that what OOB just said?