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Os1ris09
2009-03-06, 03:07 AM
Hey guys I have a another campaign I am playing in and we all decided to try this Gesalt thing to help us better cover the weakness of the party.

We have a gesalted Cleric/Sorcerer (In my opinion not very good)
We also have a Gesalt Barbarian/Bard (lol funny combo I think)
And finally a gesalt fighter/monk

We are starting at lvl 4 and just making our current guys gesalt so we can all cover eachother.

Me personally I was thinking about either being a Fighter/Druid so we have 3 tanks and I get alot of feats to go with my wildshape natural attacks.
OR
I could be a Druid/Ranger and give up spells of the ranger class along with the animal companion and multiclass into Warshaper 2/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature Warrior 5 then I would go the rest of my class levels to Druid/ranger
To take advantage of the frozen cryohydra and have two tanks. Also if I do this plan instead for Nature warrior I would go Natures weapon, Waters flow, and Serpents coil in that order
With that I would take the following feats in order
1st: Alertness
1st: Track (Ranger 1st/Druid1st)
Human: Power Attack
2nd: Precise Shot (Ranger 2nd/Druid3)
3rd: Combat Reflex's
3rd: Endurance (Ranger 3rd/Druid3)
5th: Wildshape (YEAH) (Ranger5/Druid5)
6th: Natural Spell (Immune to crits and Stun) (Warshaper1)
7th: +4 STR and CON (YEAH) (Warshaper 2)
9th: Frozen Wild Shape (MMoF2)
12th: Assume Supernatural Ability (need to know what book its in though)
(MMoF5)
15th: Robilars Gambit (Nature's Warrior 1)

Any help and advice on equipment too would be appreciated as well. Thanks guys and thanks to all who helped me and my friend build or ranger/barbarian guys. :smallsmile:

Zincorium
2009-03-06, 03:43 AM
Essentially, using gestalt to improve your playing experience comes down to three things:

1. Synergy. This is why you've noticed the cleric//sorceror (two slashes is generally used for gestalt combinations, just one slash means a multiclass) seems to be rather weak in play. Even as a gestalt character, you only have one pool of skill points, one set of ability scores, and one set of equipment. These MUST function effectively for both for a character to face the recommended CR monsters.

2. Versatility. This is more important when gestalt is used to overcome the lack of the traditional four players filling the four standard roles than it is for just adding in gestalt for a more palatable power level. In any case, gestalt is the most fun when you're not restricted to only one thing you do well. A fighter//monk is better than a regular monk, but due to equipment (i.e. weapon choice) can really only function well as a monk, since lockdown fighters and unarmed just don't mix well.

3. Action Economy. More clearly, supplement active abilities (special attacks, blasting spells, save-or-suck effects) from one class by including another class with excellent passive abilities (saves, hit die, buffing effects that are done outside combat). The idea being that you still only have one set of actions per round, so you should match it with the ability to do something useful each and every round.

Telonius
2009-03-06, 06:02 AM
A fighter//monk is better than a regular monk, but due to equipment (i.e. weapon choice) can really only function well as a monk, since lockdown fighters and unarmed just don't mix well.

You could do it if you get a Ki Focus weapon, it's just a little more expensive. Heavy Flail or Spiked Chain if you can get the DM to agree that Flurry is a ki ability, and Quarterstaff if you can't. QStaff will give him *most* of the same bonuses (not the +2 to disarm or Reach, unfortunately).

Riffington
2009-03-06, 06:58 AM
Um, just buy a reach weapon. You're proficient, since you're a fighter. You can carry it two handed and everything, since you don't need a hand free to deliver a roundhouse kick.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-06, 08:16 AM
Hey guys I have a another campaign I am playing in and we all decided to try this Gesalt thing to help us better cover the weakness of the party.

We have a gesalted Cleric/Sorcerer (In my opinion not very good)
We also have a Gesalt Barbarian/Bard (lol funny combo I think)
And finally a gesalt fighter/monk

These guys need some help.

The Cleric//Sorcerer *can* be good (minimum stat for casting on one side, use that side for buffs, utility spells, and no-save effects), but it's a lot harder to pull off. He'll want something more along the lines of Sorcerer//paladin, Paladin//sorcerer (yes, Sorcerer//paladin and Paladin//sorcerer are distinct from each other - secondary is a support side for the primary), or Cleric//Paladin. Very similar flavor (Arcane//divine, rather than Arcane//Divine for the first two), less MAD,

The Bard//Barbarian... is a 3/4ths skillmonkey with a d12 hit die, perfect saves, full BAB, and a severe case of MAD (Needs: Str, Con, Cha, at a minimum, and can definitely use Dex and Int). Additionally, he's not a Full Caster on at least one side (which is useful for long-term balance, if you expect the game to progress beyond about 10th or 15th). A Barbarian//(Cloistered) Cleric or a Barbarian//Sorcerer would have comperable flavoring (wilderness dude, tribe shaman, barbarian arcanist) while being a bit more mechanically viable (but do note he'll need to decide whether he'll be a durable caster or a magically-buffed melee guy).

The Fighter//Monk can... hit things, and endure much. That's... pretty much it. He's still got the Monk's MADness, he can't make use of the Fighter's Armor proficiency, and he's usually got a painful choice between his higher-damage fists and his higher-accuracy weapons. He's basically a Fighter with good Reflex and Will, plus some moderately handy defensive class features. If you're not expected to go above around 10th or so, and the player is skilled with working with Fighter's, he'll won't be dead weight. Otherwise? not so much.

What this party really lacks is a proper Rogue... although you can arrange to handle that as a Druid, if you're crafty (or have the Bardbarian handle detrapping the hard way, and you pick up the pieces)



We are starting at lvl 4 and just making our current guys gesalt so we can all cover eachother.

Me personally I was thinking about either being a Fighter/Druid so we have 3 tanks and I get alot of feats to go with my wildshape natural attacks.
OR
I could be a Druid/Ranger and give up spells of the ranger class along with the animal companion and multiclass into Warshaper 2/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature Warrior 5 then I would go the rest of my class levels to Druid/ranger
To take advantage of the frozen cryohydra and have two tanks. Also if I do this plan instead for Nature warrior I would go Natures weapon, Waters flow, and Serpents coil in that order
With that I would take the following feats in order
1st: Alertness
1st: Track (Ranger 1st/Druid1st)
Human: Power Attack
2nd: Precise Shot (Ranger 2nd/Druid3)
3rd: Combat Reflex's
3rd: Endurance (Ranger 3rd/Druid3)
5th: Wildshape (YEAH) (Ranger5/Druid5)
6th: Natural Spell (Immune to crits and Stun) (Warshaper1)
7th: +4 STR and CON (YEAH) (Warshaper 2)
9th: Frozen Wild Shape (MMoF2)
12th: Assume Supernatural Ability (need to know what book its in though)
(MMoF5)
15th: Robilars Gambit (Nature's Warrior 1)

Any help and advice on equipment too would be appreciated as well. Thanks guys and thanks to all who helped me and my friend build or ranger/barbarian guys. :smallsmile:You don't seem to need much in the way of help; you've got a reasonable plan running. Any more optimized than you already are and nobody else will do anything. Ranger//Druid gives you Full Spellcasting, Wildshape so you don't need to worry too much about your Strength or Dex, Full BAB, 6 skill points/level (and a reasonably nice skill list), Monk-perfect saves, a d8 hit die, and loads of class features. Your stat priority should be Wis>Con>Int>Rest

As for items, fairly standard stuff, but as a Druid, you want a lot of Wilding Clasps (Magic Item Compendium), for obvious reasons... but at 4th, you can't really afford both a Wilding Clasp and something to attach it to.

You might want to consider a one or two level dip (on the Ranger side) into Rogue for Trapfinding (nobody else in the party has it; possibly two levels, for Evasion), or into Monk for the Wis to AC (possibly two levels - the second being for Evasion). Costs you a point of BAB, but could be well worth it.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Personally, I'm fond of using Gestalt to add flavoring. Everyone in the party is a DM-chosen class on one side, a player-chosen class on the other. E.g., Everyone's a Druid//Something, a Cleric//Something, a Sorcerer//Something, a Monk//Something, Ninja//something, Rogue//something, et cetera. Everyone's from the same Grove/Church/Monastary/Clan/Gang, or everyone's equally "blessed" or "cursed" by strange powers. A little something to bind the party into a common reason.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-06, 04:54 PM
You don't seem to need much in the way of help; you've got a reasonable plan running. Any more optimized than you already are and nobody else will do anything. Ranger//Druid gives you Full Spellcasting, Wildshape so you don't need to worry too much about your Strength or Dex, Full BAB, 6 skill points/level (and a reasonably nice skill list), Monk-perfect saves, a d8 hit die, and loads of class features. Your stat priority should be Wis>Con>Int>Rest

As for items, fairly standard stuff, but as a Druid, you want a lot of Wilding Clasps (Magic Item Compendium), for obvious reasons... but at 4th, you can't really afford both a Wilding Clasp and something to attach it to.

You might want to consider a one or two level dip (on the Ranger side) into Rogue for Trapfinding (nobody else in the party has it; possibly two levels, for Evasion), or into Monk for the Wis to AC (possibly two levels - the second being for Evasion). Costs you a point of BAB, but could be well worth it.
Rangers should never dip Rogue. A much better method is dipping Scout for 3-4 levels and taking the Swift Ambusher feat. This allows you to stack Ranger and Scout levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. So when you are a 16 Ranger/4 Scout, you get Skirmish of a 20th level Scout(5d6, +5AC[7d6+7AC with Improved Skirmish]), vs the 1-2d6 you'd have with a Rogue dip. And since you get Pounce from being almost any of the better Wildshape forms, you'll always activate Skirmish.

The other point is that Bard/Barbarian is a good option non-Gestalt. As-is, he could be a serious melee powerhouse with full casting if built right, especially with good rolls or a high pt-buy. Granted, that requires a lot of player knowledge, which this guy might not have.

Os1ris09
2009-03-07, 12:26 AM
Okay well I have a question on the way a gestalt character works. Does a Gestalt character get the best of both class's.

Example Fighter/bard
-Best save progressoin
-Bonus feats at even levels
-Best BAB
-6 skill points per lvl
-Class abilities of both class's

Or does the system work in a different manner?

Knaight
2009-03-07, 12:31 AM
Yeah, thats pretty much it. One thing though, I'm pretty sure gestalt only gets 1 feat per level at 1, 3, 6, etc. I'm not sure if you took that into account in the opening post, since I don't remember bonus feats from ranger and druid too well, but its worth remembering.

Zincorium
2009-03-07, 12:34 AM
Okay well I have a question on the way a gestalt character works. Does a Gestalt character get the best of both class's.

Example Fighter/bard
-Best save progressoin
-Bonus feats at even levels
-Best BAB
-6 skill points per lvl
-Class abilities of both class's

Or does the system work in a different manner?

That should be it, plus the d10 hit dice. Also the saves choose the best progression in each category, so the given character has all good saves.

Lastly, you don't just get bard skills as in-class, everything on the fighter list is in-class as well.

Edit:
Knaight, you're right that gestalt characters only get the standard feat progression, but the first post's build appears 100% legit on that count.

Os1ris09
2009-03-07, 12:39 AM
That should be it, plus the d10 hit dice. Also the saves choose the best progression in each category, so the given character has all good saves.

Lastly, you don't just get bard skills as in-class, everything on the fighter list is in-class as well.

Edit:
Knaight, you're right that gestalt characters only get the standard feat progression, but the first post's build appears 100% legit on that count.

Hold on so if you do a gestalt character you do not get both class's abilities
(example a druid//ranger would only get one for the class features)

Zincorium
2009-03-07, 12:42 AM
Hold on so if you do a gestalt character you do not get both class's abilities
(example a druid//ranger would only get one for the class features)

Er, what? How are you getting a negation of that from my post? I said you were basically correct, aside from the few things I added.

To be completely unequivocal- Yes. You get all of the class features of both classes that form the gestalt.

It would really suck otherwise.

Os1ris09
2009-03-07, 12:45 AM
So you get the 6 skill points from bard AND the 2 points from figher?

Zincorium
2009-03-07, 01:16 AM
So you get the 6 skill points from bard AND the 2 points from figher?

That's different. If both classes get a class feature, you take the best one. Thus, 6 skill points per level. Anytime you have a class feature that shows up in both progressions, like a fighter//psychic warrior or a blackguard//rogue, you take the fastest improvement rather than adding them together. It's one of those limiting things like not allowing Mystic Theurge and similar classes.