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View Full Version : [d20]How to make FF-ish Summoning?



Neithan
2009-03-06, 04:33 AM
I just thought that it would be awsome to have a form of summoning in D&D, that is similar to the Summons of Final Fantasy.
Summon Monster isn't nearly as awsome and Planar Ally takes much too long. And Gate becomes available only at level 17.

The idea of caling a huge spirit that devestates hordes of enemies or one big one is nice, but how do you keep it balanced? Even if you can make it only once per day, many adventures sometimes have only one fight per day or less. And it would kind of suck for everyone else, when the parties bard or cleric summons a huge freakin beast that just whipes away all the monsters.

Ideas?

Bulwer
2009-03-06, 04:41 AM
Homebrew class, I'd say. d4 hit die, highly limited-use summoning, some way to be useful but not powerful in a fight when he's not summoning.

Daracaex
2009-03-06, 05:22 AM
Seriously? It's right on this page, even. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4299590#post4299590)

Neithan
2009-03-06, 05:39 AM
I've seen it, but I don't like how it's handled there, and I didn't want to derail that thread with something, that isn't actually related to the project.

Daracaex
2009-03-06, 05:57 AM
I've seen it, but I don't like how it's handled there, and I didn't want to derail that thread with something, that isn't actually related to the project.

Ok, well what exactly do you want, then? Summoning is a little different in each game, after all. There's the team replacement method in FFX that's hard to fit into a game like D&D, or there's the effects like in FF Tactics which would be a bit easier, but not good if you want some staying power. Another idea is to go for single character replacement like in Rich Burlew's Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYkD5jL8N9SAcClN3pZ.html) class or summoning aspects of powerful creatures like the Binder from Tome of Magic.

Fizban
2009-03-07, 02:13 AM
It depends on if you want a single attack or a short duration rampage. If a single attack, just have the spell/ability/whatever summon a whatever which acts immediately to use the attack and then vanishes. Compare what a spell could do at the level you cast it, and use that level. So Summon Bahamut, if used at level 10, would bring a dragon with a 10d6 or equivalent breath weapon, that would breath and then disappear by the end of your turn.

If you want a short duration rampage, take a look at the spells Summon Elemental Monolith, Summon Aspect of Bahamut, Summon Aspect of Tiamat, and Summon Greater Elemental. They're all summon spells with concentration duration (max 1 round/level) that summon a single pre-specified monster, and the CR is usually equal to or 1 below the minimum caster level for the spell. So to make a summon spell, pick a level and then pick a creature with CR of level*2-1 or less. You can have it drop it's big special ability and then stop concentrating, or you can keep it around for up to 1 round/level to rampage, as long as you concentrate.

There are also some clerical spells that literally replace you with the monster, or you could make new versions of Call [Inevitable] and Dragon Ally X, which have shorter casting times (I think), but cost xp (and for dragons, loot as well). I don't think they'd work in combat, but they're easier than Ally/Binding.

Neithan
2009-03-07, 04:39 AM
Thanks, I'll look that up.

If a single attack, just have the spell/ability/whatever summon a whatever which acts immediately to use the attack and then vanishes. Compare what a spell could do at the level you cast it, and use that level. So Summon Bahamut, if used at level 10, would bring a dragon with a 10d6 or equivalent breath weapon, that would breath and then disappear by the end of your turn.
That sounds also cool and fits very well with the setting. I'll also do that. :smallbiggrin:

Looking through the SC, I also found the Phantom Wolf and Phantom Bear spells. They look pretty much like I had in mind. Summons a very powerful magical creature with a duration of concentration and up to 1 round/level.

Fizban
2009-03-07, 05:59 AM
Ah yes, forgot about those since they're druid only. The Summon Greater Elemental is Druid/Cleric as well, I think it was Spell Compendium. Monolith is Complete Arcane/SC, and Summon Aspect of Bahamut is Races of the Dragon (doesn't look like there's one for Tiamat). I'd watch out when assigning creatures for single attack substitutes in the idea you quoted: draconic breath weapon DCs are often crazy high for their damage, and would give an unfair advantage if the level was only based on the damage. Really it would be best to base it on the caster's ability, but then we're back to refluffing spells. In any case, one thing that makes summons stand out (and could work as a great balancing factor is the 1 round casting time, meaning enemies always have a chance to interrupt you, and the creature/effect doesn't happen until the start of your next turn. Of course there are plenty of alternate class features and PrC abilities to get rid of that for summon monster, but this is supposed to be a higher caliber.

If your DM thinks summoning a creature of your own CR is overpowered (and let's face it, bringing in an expendable creature as threatening as you are without expending all your resources is kinda cheesy, even though it's likely more than 1/4 of your full power for the day, and thus in line with how much you should blow on the encounter)... What was I saying? Oh right, if the DM says it's too good you could do something like in FFII where your summons are linked to your own life, taking equal damage or taking some backlash if the spell ends because the creature was killed.

They aren't concentration duration, but you might look into Manifest Draconic Heritage, Lesser/Greater in Races of the Dragon. They're actually creation instead of summoning, and the wyvern/dragon turtle gets bonus hp, though you take a paltry amount of damage if it's destroyed. Dragon turtles have a perfectly usable breath weapon and 20' speed on land, and they're big enough you'd have excellent cover, that is if you don't ride your new take for the duration. Dragon Magic also has the Summon Twilight Guardian, which summons a dragon shaped plant thing, with the added option of having it transfer it's hp to you, which is also cool. They're all sorcerer only spells, but as long as you're thinking outside the rules box you might as well give them a shot.

You might also look into some of the other sorcerer only spells in RoD, Wings of Flurry and Tail Sweep both manifest ghosly limbs of force that deal damage over an area. You could really just refluff any spell you want into summoning something to use the effect, but it doesn't feel right without a mechanical difference. Changing the spell to Conjuration, SR:no, and 1 round casting time would be great, except conjurations are already SR:no most of the time. All you'd really get for the massive weakness of 1 round casting is a slightly lower level/area tradeoff that you don't really need.

On a related note, what would people think about a summoner class using only these type of spells? A few buffs/heals/weak attacks and then just summon monster and specific summon spells. Give it maybe a d6 HD but only 1/2 BAB so it can't clericzilla up with it's summons, and make up a CR based summon for each spell level.

Neithan
2009-03-07, 06:41 AM
I am the gm ^^

And I'm doing mostly homebrew, so the actual specifics of the spells aren't that much of a problem to me.

Regarding Dragons Breath spells, I intend to make it just like a regular level 5 fireball or something, that just looks like a dragon spirit forming from mist and spouting a huge cone of fire.
Of course, within the game world, a real dragon spirit appears for 3 seconds, but it only does this single attack and dissapears again. ;)

I'm usually opposed to spells like divine might and tensers transformation, since a wizard or a priest (not cleric) is a spellcaster and not a warrior. But using their own bodies as hosts for summoned spirits might actually be cool.

Ladorak
2009-03-08, 01:08 PM
I just thought that it would be awsome to have a form of summoning in D&D, that is similar to the Summons of Final Fantasy.
Summon Monster isn't nearly as awsome and Planar Ally takes much too long. And Gate becomes available only at level 17.

Takes too long? Seriously? Dude, any FF summoning gives you ample time to go make yourself a cup of tea, do your tax return and prove string theory.

Maybe some kind of reserve feat based on the summon elemental feat. The elemental type and level of the spell you have in reserve determins the size and type of elemental you can summon

Neithan
2009-03-08, 01:24 PM
Currently I'm working on a feat, that allows a priest to form a pact/bond or whatever with a celestial spirit or demon. As the priest levels up, he can transfer XP from himself to the spirit to make it advance. So you can either have a quite usual priest with a celestial pet, or a total whimp priest, who almost exclusively acts through his awsome celestial spirit companion.

Unfortunately, I sense a huge potential to end up with a severly broken system.

levi
2009-03-08, 02:38 PM
Takes too long? Seriously? Dude, any FF summoning gives you ample time to go make yourself a cup of tea, do your tax return and prove string theory.

While this was a problem with a few games, Square quickly realized that players didn't enjoy it and offered options to change it. In the early games, summons took no more time than other attacks. Starting with VII, they got all flashy with the graphics and it got tedious. But the later games had config options to speed up or completly eliminate the summon sequences. (My personal favorite is the option where the first usage uses the long one ('cause they do look cool) and later ones use the short version.)

Besides which, despite the player time used, the actual battle engine time used (not counting the charge up) for the actuall summoning is zero, just like everything else. Planar Ally and friends cannot be cast mid-battle. It takes 100 rounds to cast it. That's definitely too slow for FF style summons.

Another_Poet
2009-03-09, 01:20 PM
1. Stat specific summon monsters, rather than generic monster types. (i.e. Leviathan rather than Monstrous Snake). You need only make 10-20 of them, a fun project for an afternoon.

2. Give each a set number of spell-like abilities, and calculate its CR.

3. Give the Summoner class a set number of magic points to spend on summoning. Eachs ummoning consumes a number of magic pointsper round determined by the summon monster's CR. (So for example, CR 1 costs 10 points per round, CR 2 costs 20, etc). If a Summoner runs out of mp their summon disappears.

4. Or if you'd rather not make a new class, make items that do the summoning, and give each item a set number of mp/day. Then price the items based on which Summon Monster spell they are most similar to.

Done. Omega monsters with special abilities can now be summoned for short durations by special people only.