So what are the IFCC?

[magic9mushroom]

My money's on Infernals. Your thoughts?

[osyluth]

My money's on Infernals. Your thoughts?

It has already been clearly stated that they represent each of the three fiendish races, i. e., demons, yugoloths, and devils.

[kpenguin]

It has already been clearly stated that they represent each of the three fiendish races, i. e., demons, yugoloths, and devils.

What mushroom's asking is what the letters stand for.

[Kish]

That's not exactly clear, but if it's the case...the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)

[magic9mushroom]

All of you misinterpreted my question.

I KNOW that one is a demon, one a devil and one a yugoloth.

I KNOW that they're the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

I'm asking what KIND of fiends they are. (ie, pit fiend, imp, erinyes, marilith, balor...)

As I said, my money's on Infernals. Your thoughts?

[hamishspence]

Infernals (as written in Epic Handbook) don't come in a neutral variant- they are Chaotic Or Lawful.

Allowing them in a neutral variant would not be a big shift- it would simply be not including either the Chaotic or Lawful subtype.

They are semidivine, however- Abominations, part god, part fiend.

ArchFiends are generally unique fiends- demon lords, archdevils, and any archfiend tends to be different from others, in powers and looks.

As one of the most powerful non-unique fiends, Infernal is an interesting possibility. But normal Archfiend seems more likely- Infernals are generally imprisoned by the archfiends.

[magic9mushroom]

If they're archfiends, then why hasn't Qarr heard of Lee, given Baator's strict hierarchy?

Just a thought.

[hamishspence]

Because there are a big group of "exiled archfiends" on the top layer- not dukes or archdukes. See Fiendish Codex 2. Also, the novel Elminster In Hell focuses on these exiles (is not a very good novel though)

Or Lee could be a random Duke who Qaar hasn't heard of- Qaar is an Imp and may not know much about devils serving other archdukes.

[magic9mushroom]

I thought only archdukes had divine ranks.

[hamishspence]

No evidence of the 3 having divine ranks. And archdevils having them is an option, not a standard rule. Normal rule is, archdevil (or demon lord) has no divine ranks.

Infernals aren't exactly Rank 0 Quasi deities, but they have many of the traits of one, as Abominations.

[magic9mushroom]

No evidence of the 3 having divine ranks. And archdevils having them is an option, not a standard rule. Normal rule is, archdevil (or demon lord) has no divine ranks.

Infernals aren't exactly Rank 0 Quasi deities, but they have many of the traits of one, as Abominations.

Abominations, including Infernals, have divine rank 0. Says so in the ELH.

I'm taking the assumption of divine ranks from the Time Stop. It would have been more than a minute, wouldn't you say? And even a minute would require 8 epic feats and selective ignorance of a certain rule in the ELH.

[flamestrike]

Still mostly on-topic: what are the historical/literary references in the names of the three fiends? BTW, having names referring to famous historical figures of fitting alignment while still having the LE/NE/CE code is just one of those brilliant little details that I love about this comic!

Anyway, Nero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero) is the easiest, being the Nero who fiddled while Rome burned (and very Neutral Evil if there ever was one).

Lee....a reference to Robert E. Lee? I guess he fits the Lawful Evil mode because he joined the Confederacy feeling that it was his duty as a native Virginian and thus supported slavery.

Cedrik is the one who has me completely mystified. Any guesses?

[ErrantMage]

Nero went mad when Rome burned. His mind broke and he wanted to be a god by recreating it to be so wonderful that everyone would worship the power of him and Rome. I doubt it is because he 'fiddled'.

[Lupy]

Lee....a reference to Robert E. Lee? I guess he fits the Lawful Evil mode because he joined the Confederacy feeling that it was his duty as a native Virginian and thus supported slavery.


I sort of doubt that, Rich is a good enough story tell that he wouldn't need to portray as evil anyone who is widely respected as a good person.

But I have no ideas for who it could be.

However, a wiki search for "Cedrik" reveals nothing. Maybe the name Nero is a coincidence?

[Ikialev]

who fiddled while Rome burned
Urgh. There were no violins in rome.

[hamishspence]

well, its phrased as "If you're using Deities and Demigods, abominations are rank 0 deities"

BoVD and BOED suggest that, as an optional rule, archdevils/demon lords, and celestial lords, can be given divine ranks.

Maybe its something like that, here.

[flamestrike]

Urgh. There were no violins in rome.

Yeah, I know. I was referring to the common phrase that a lot of people know him by. And yeah, I also know that the whole question of what he was doing during the fire in Rome is unresolved as far as the historical record is concerned. The guy did, however, have his own mother killed (which most of the historians of the period seem to agree on)--- that's why I call him neutral evil.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way: any interesting ideas about Cedrik?

[magic9mushroom]

well, its phrased as "If you're using Deities and Demigods, abominations are rank 0 deities"

BoVD and BOED suggest that, as an optional rule, archdevils/demon lords, and celestial lords, can be given divine ranks.

Maybe its something like that, here.

But those rules aren't variant rules, they're core rules. Deities and Demigods is SRD. ELH and D&DG go hand in hand and refer to each other a lot.

Also, both Fiendish Codexes presume divine ranks, as otherwise they couldn't grant spells.

[Felyndiira]

Perhaps the names are given because of the following?

LEe
NEro
CEdric

[flamestrike]

Perhaps the names are given because of the following?

LEe
NEro
CEdric

Sorry, should've mentioned before that I'd read that in an earlier thread before I posted. Rich often puts in little Easter-Egg-type references in his comic (like Nero, etc.) so I was wondering if there's anything behind the choice of "Cedric" as a name besides the CE thing. Thx though :smallsmile:

[Morgan Wick]

All of you misinterpreted my question.

I KNOW that one is a demon, one a devil and one a yugoloth.

I KNOW that they're the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

I'm asking what KIND of fiends they are. (ie, pit fiend, imp, erinyes, marilith, balor...)

As I said, my money's on Infernals. Your thoughts?

1. If they're different fiendish races, how can they ALL be Infernals?

2. Well, that wasn't what you asked. "What are they" could mean any of the above and more. If you were asking what kind of fiends they were, ask "what kind of fiends are they". And if you thought your guess made it clear, see 1.

[magic9mushroom]

1. If they're different fiendish races, how can they ALL be Infernals?

2. Well, that wasn't what you asked. "What are they" could mean any of the above and more. If you were asking what kind of fiends they were, ask "what kind of fiends are they". And if you thought your guess made it clear, see 1.

Because Infernals can be both LE and CE and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say they can also be NE.

[GSFB]

I KNOW that one is a demon, one a devil and one a yugoloth.

Umm, actually, all we KNOW is that they CLAIM to be such. They could be anyone with moderate skills with disguise and bluff.

What we KNOW is that Sabine reports to them down in the lower planes. There is plenty of room for interpretation there. And, given the devious nature of evil in general, they could be pretty much anything with power.

[hamishspence]

the "Archfiends/archcelestials are not deities" bit is pretty clear in BoED and BOVD- also, possibly FC1/FC2. I think its a case of- they act as proxies, but the plane grants the power.

If under normal rules, Asmodeus or Demogorgon, aren't even rank 0 deities, why would the IFCC be?

[Volkov]

Abominations, including Infernals, have divine rank 0. Says so in the ELH.

I'm taking the assumption of divine ranks from the Time Stop. It would have been more than a minute, wouldn't you say? And even a minute would require 8 epic feats and selective ignorance of a certain rule in the ELH.

The Epic Level hand book grossly overstates the power of many of it's creatures. Hell half of it's spells don't deserve to be called Epic. Ruin is half as strong as a Disintegrate spell casted by someone of the same level. Greater Ruin is 5d6 weaker in damage.

I would say they are as following a Duke of Hell, A Yugoloth General, and a Demon Lord. I can safely say that Nero is a heavily advanced ultraloth *wouldn't be a stretch*, the other two I'm searching for a devil and a demon that have the appropriate shape. Infernals would be out as they have massive wings.

[GoC]

I'm taking the assumption of divine ranks from the Time Stop. It would have been more than a minute, wouldn't you say? And even a minute would require 8 epic feats and selective ignorance of a certain rule in the ELH.
All they need is someone hidden off screen casting it several times with a metamagic rod of maximize spell.
The bit about it affecting an area seems impossible without using a planar bubble.

[Volkov]

the "Archfiends/archcelestials are not deities" bit is pretty clear in BoED and BOVD- also, possibly FC1/FC2. I think its a case of- they act as proxies, but the plane grants the power.

If under normal rules, Asmodeus or Demogorgon, aren't even rank 0 deities, why would the IFCC be?

If Orcus is very very close to becoming a deity and so is Asmodeus, why can't the IFCC be as close? If Orcus suceeds, lets just say he gets another 4 or five layers to his empire. And there will be a smoldering corpse of a ebony skinned humanoid demon, and a two headed octopus, baboon, lizard.....thing on his castle floor. And quite possibly a certain Giant former Demonic Spider goddess.

[Corwin Weber]

Nero went mad when Rome burned. His mind broke and he wanted to be a god by recreating it to be so wonderful that everyone would worship the power of him and Rome. I doubt it is because he 'fiddled'.

Erm.....

He burned it because he wanted to rebuild it and the Senate wouldn't let him.

I'd put Nero as being either on the evil side of Chaotic Neutral or full on Chaotic Evil. He was a full blown nutball, as well as a full on sadist. He was Caligula's encore. Throwing people to the lions? Crucifixions galore? Other forms of torture? Yeah, that was Nero. Not exactly Rome's shining hour here.

[Ladorak]

Still mostly on-topic: what are the historical/literary references in the names of the three fiends? BTW, having names referring to famous historical figures of fitting alignment while still having the LE/NE/CE code is just one of those brilliant little details that I love about this comic!

Anyway, Nero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero) is the easiest, being the Nero who fiddled while Rome burned (and very Neutral Evil if there ever was one).

Lee....a reference to Robert E. Lee? I guess he fits the Lawful Evil mode because he joined the Confederacy feeling that it was his duty as a native Virginian and thus supported slavery.

Cedrik is the one who has me completely mystified. Any guesses?

As said earlier, no fiddles at that time. Also I feel you may be being a little harsh on Lee, I actually quite admire the man. You do know his first act after inheriting his father's estate was to free all the slaves and build them a village to live in?


Erm.....

He burned it because he wanted to rebuild it and the Senate wouldn't let him.

There is no evidence of this what-so-ever. Yes Rome caught fire, yes Rome was primarily made of wood and yes he did build his palace on the burnt-down bit. Anything else comes from Christian sources, who'd have no way of knowing and good reason to be biased

[Corwin Weber]

There is no evidence of this what-so-ever. Yes Rome caught fire, yes Rome was primarily made of wood and yes he did build his palace on the burnt-down bit. Anything else comes from Christian sources, who'd have no way of knowing and good reason to be biased

Neither Suetonius nor Cassius Dio were Christians, and both were convinced Nero was responsible. A fair portion of the Senate was convinced of it at the time, as well. The accusations were common enough that Nero ended up hiring Tacticus and Pliny the Younger to put out propaganda blaming the early Christians for it to shift the blame away from him.

[Ladorak]

Neither Suetonius nor Cassius Dio were Christians, and both were convinced Nero was responsible. A fair portion of the Senate was convinced of it at the time, as well. The accusations were common enough that Nero ended up hiring Tacticus and Pliny the Younger to put out propaganda blaming the early Christians for it to shift the blame away from him.

I reeeeeeally don't wanna get into this but...

Great Fire of Rome: 64 AD
Birth of Suetonius (Who references Christians, and incidently who's work has been viewed as little more than propaganda for the last few years): 75 AD (Ish... I think, can't be bothered finding my books and damned if I'm looking at wiki)
Birth of Cassius Dio: 155 AD(ish again)

As I recall Tacitus is above reproach as a source...

[Corwin Weber]

I reeeeeeally don't wanna get into this but...

Great Fire of Rome: 64 AD
Birth of Suetonius (Who references Christians, and incidently who's work has been viewed as little more than propaganda for the last few years): 75 AD (Ish... I think, can't be bothered finding my books and damned if I'm looking at wiki)
Birth of Cassius Dio: 155 AD(ish again)

As I recall Tacitus is above reproach as a source...

Even Tacitus' account has Nero being more theatrical than actually upset about the fire.

Suetonius was born in AD 69. Five years after the fire.

** Edit **

Suetonius' supposed Christian references are a misunderstanding by early apologists. The reference it to 'Chrestus,' which means 'favored servant' as I recall. A Christian reference would have been to 'Christos' or in Greek, 'Kristos.' Somebody got confused by homophones.

[Ladorak]

Even Tacitus' account has Nero being more theatrical than actually upset about the fire.

Indeed for Nero the Fire was rather fortunate, he wanted a large area cleared in the center of Rome and thus it happened. We are debating however the evidence of him being responcible.

[Corwin Weber]

Indeed for Nero the Fire was rather fortunate, he wanted a large area cleared in the center of Rome and thus it happened. We are debating however the evidence of him being responcible.

He argued for a rebuild, was denied, then after the city burned down, rebuilt it the way he wanted it to be.... including making the fairly unpopular decision of building his palace complex on the ruins. He also diverted attention away from accusations against him by drafting propaganda against a disliked (where they were even known) religious and social minority.

People have been convicted on less.

[The Neoclassic]

But those rules aren't variant rules, they're core rules. Deities and Demigods is SRD.

Umm... Pretty sure it's not, actually. The SRD is my D&D Bible, and I have not found any information on specific gods (though, yes, they do have basic information on divine ranks and powers) in it, which is most of what Deities and Demigods is.


Umm, actually, all we KNOW is that they CLAIM to be such. They could be anyone with moderate skills with disguise and bluff.

Eh, I think they'd have to have a fairly high amount of power (at least several CRs above V, so like 18+ each, I'm guessing, prolly more like 25ish). So far, they've been able to do (or at least fake/make V believe there's been) create a decently powerful Time Stop spell, perform an advanced three-pronged soul splice, and summon a choir of dead, damned people.