Are Prestigious Classes worthwhile mechanically? (3.5)

[Tempest Fennac]

A few days ago, I mentioned the Prestigious classes to someone because I thought they could help them with a particular character concept, but I also commented that I didn't think they looked as though they were worth the messing about (they need multi-classing and specific feats or spells to access) compared to taking normal classes ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm ). I've never tried these classes before, but I'm curious about what other people think about them from a mechanics perspective.

[Zergrusheddie]

It really depends on the class. Most PrC will let you focus on a single attribute of your character while ignoring others (Assassins, Master of Many Forms.), and they extremely good ones make you increase several things without much disability at all (Incantrix, Planar Shepherd). It mostly comes down to what you want to do.

EDIT: My intelligence < :thog:

[Inyssius Tor]

It really depends on the class. Most PrC will let you focus on a single attribute of your character while ignoring others (Assassins, Master of Many Forms.), and they extremely good ones make you increase several things without much disability at all (Incantrix, Planar Shepherd). It mostly comes down to what you want to do.
No, that's not the question. Prestigious. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

[jcsw]

It really depends on the class. Most PrC will let you focus on a single attribute of your character while ignoring others (Assassins, Master of Many Forms.), and they extremely good ones make you increase several things without much disability at all (Incantrix, Planar Shepherd). It mostly comes down to what you want to do.

He's not talking about normal PrCs. He's talking about the specific three PrCs in Unearthed Arcana which are labeled Prestigious Classes, namely prestige bard, paladin, and ranger.

In terms of mechanics, they have a niche of say, advancing cleric casting while being paladin-esque, however, all three have partial spellcasting progression, and as such are not highly recommended.

[Zergrusheddie]

No, that's not the question. Prestigious. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

Fail....
Damn....

[Optimystik]

Tempest, to put it bluntly... they're awful.

Prestigious Paladin/Ranger: You get full BAB progression but lose HALF your caster levels. Not worth it for any druid or cleric, who can get equal or better combat ability through Wildshape/Divine Power while keeping all their casting ability. Both PruCs require divine spellcasting to enter, so pure fighter and monk are out as well (not that any fighter in his right mind would give up the bonus feats for this swill.)

Prestigious Bard: Marginally better than the above two, PruC Bard loses 4 caster levels in exchange for medium BAB progression and an additional good save (Reflex.) It requires arcane casting from three different schools to enter, which can put a strain on both the sorcerer's limited selection and the wizard's specialization. Sadly, two of those four levels are the 1st AND 3rd of the PruC, horribly gimping the sorcerer entry (compare a Sorcerer 6/PruC Bard 4 to a Sorcerer 10 and weep). Add in the BAB requirements (+3, meaning sorcs and wizards can't enter the class until 6) more intensive Perform requirements (e.g. 8 perform is required to countersong, instead of 3) and you have a failed class.

If I'm reading correctly, the advantage to this variant is the ability to mix the features of a couple of like-themed base classes without sacrificing as much effectiveness as straight multi-classing would. For example, a Cleric/PruC Paladin would have access to more spells and abilities than a normal Cleric/Paladin hybrid would. Prestigious classes might thus seem like a good idea.

The problem is that there are already far superior PrCs designed to do just that. For example, Sublime Chord allows you to mix Sorcerer and Bard abilities MUCH more effectively, and with better flavor to boot.Avoid like the plague.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me (I was wondering if it was my tunnel-vision as far as optimizing being a hinderance again :smalltongue:). I know normal Rangers as seen as descent while Bards are controversial reagaring how balanced they are, but would you say the Prestigeous Paladin is better then the normal version?

[Eldariel]

They have their uses; short dips get you Mount (especially for Supermount), stacked class abilities on early levels as qualifications and so on. That said, taking them the whole way is practically always a terribad idea. But small dips can be worth it.

[Khatoblepas]

As full classes, no.

As dips, heck yes.

Prestige Bard:
Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 1 will net you:
- All bard spells from level 1-6. Which you can cast spontaineously. Oh, and you cast your spells at a net +1 CL, since you don't use necromancy or evocation.

Dragonwrought Whitedragonspawn Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Bard 15 (with LA Buyoff)
is a pretty awesome bard, as well. Casts as a CL19, has +4 Inspire Courage (which, as we know, can be cheesed out with Words of Creation et al) and while not THE most effective, I do think it would be quite fun.

Prestige Paladin:

Cleric 17/Prestige Paladin 3
Better than 20 Cleric levels.

Prestige Ranger:

Dunno. May be useful for a cleric archer. x3

[Tempest Fennac]

How would Beguiller/PrC get allBard spells? I thought it would just give you spells as whichever class you had before you took the levels. (I can see why that CL boost would be great for Beguillers if you can afford the Perform ranks, though.)

[Khatoblepas]

How would Beguiller/PrC get allBard spells? I thought it would just give you spells as whichever class you had before you took the levels. (I can see why that CL boost would be great for Beguillers if you can afford the Perform ranks, though.)

It says it gives you access to the unique spells of the class. Since it adds to your spell list, and Beguilers spont. cast their spell list. It's a shame it never actually says it, and leaves it up to the DM:


Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

But then again, since these classes are quite weak and the prereqs mean, DMs shouldn't be that horrible.

[Tempest Fennac]

I missed that bit (sorry for not seeing it). That would be kind of cheesy, but it does make a 1 level dip worthwhile for a Beguiller.

[Roderick_BR]

It's worthwhile if you want that kind of variation. You want paladins to be playable from 1st level, with holy warriors coming out fresh from some scholar temple, or only allow clerics to become martial casters after a long training time (ie., PrC requires)?
Personally, I find this option interesting for paladins. For bard and ranger, I don't think it works well.

[goram.browncoat]

As has been mentioned, they work pretty well as dips. Im not too sure about taking all the levels, my guttfeeling would be that thats a bad idea.

Consider for example a martially oriented favoured soul. A three level dip gets you: cha (your pimp stat) to saves, smite evil, turn undead (on a character with primary stat charisma. divine metamagic, divine might, ... its all good), divine health and aura of courage. I'm not saying the caster level hit (-1) wont hurt, but you do get alot in return.

Clerics get less as they already have turn undead which is arguably the best part of the dip and they usually have charisma as secondary stat, reducing the effects of smite and divine grace as well. Having said that, it can still be totally worth it depending on your build (if its charisma heavy I would go for it, if not, i would leave it).

Prestige bard I havent really thought about much before but I was wondering if it might not be possible to go into it with sorceror, qualify for a level of sublime chord and then take the rest of prestige bard and using it to progress the sublime chord spellcasting, thus offsetting the slower spell progression somewhat while picking up all the bard stuff. You wouldnt be as effective a caster as if you went straight sorceror offcourse, but you get some bardic stuff. I'm not sure this would work but i think im going to try and make a build for it, just for kicks. I think it might make for an interesting character, probably not uberpowerfull, but interesting :)

EDIT: Sorceror 6 / Prestige Bard 4 / Divine Chord 2 / Prestige Bard +8 gets lvl 9 spell (slower than usual and only one though :/ ) It does get alot of 4th level spells though as both the sorceror and divine chord give a pool of lvl 4 spells known/day. In return for this slightly gimped casting it gets various bardic goodies, you also get better saves (good ref) and hit die (d6 instead of d4). A bit MAD since you would need a decent int to take care of the divine chord prerequisites .. thats not bad though, you need at least 15 int to take words of creation feat and this build really wants words of creation anyway :)
This might also work with battle sorceror, giving you armoured casting, better bab and a free martial proficiency while only incurring the penalty of battle sorceror (less spells known) up to spell level 4 instead of all the way up to nine. This does leave your sorceror lvl 4 casting pool with no spells known (without affecting your sublime chord lvl 4 spellcasting), though you can still use the spell slots for metamagic'ed things (or if you have versatile caster, lvl 5 spells from your sublime chord spells known, i think). This might be a fun gish build actually, little lower on the BAB than usual but with inspire courage bonus for the whole party.

[Keld Denar]

I've seen PrPally in a few places as a 3 level dip on the way to Fist of Raz to get a more smitalicious cleric with nearly full casting. Thats about all I've seen of any of them in any CharOp builds.

[Draz74]

Cleric / Prestige Paladin + Battle Blessing = win, if you interpret it to mean that you can now Quicken all of your Cleric spellcasting for free. :smallsmile:

Even then, while this makes an excellent ClericZilla (melee-focused cleric), at high levels you won't be quite as flexibly powerful as a straight Cleric who can use Miracles. Unless of course you just dipped PrPaladin, like others have been recommending.

[goram.browncoat]

Cleric / Prestige Paladin + Battle Blessing = win, if you interpret it to mean that you can now Quicken all of your Cleric spellcasting for free. :smallsmile:

If only that worked! But it doesn't :( The spells you are casting are still very much cleric spells, not paladin spells. And I'm fairly certain battle blessing is specific about only working on palading spells.

It would be different if prestige paladin had its own spell progression (like sublime chord or ur priest) but in this particular case it just progresses the spellcasting of your base class (like so many other casting prcs) which means you are still casting whatever spells your entry class casts (be it favoured soul, cleric or whatever else can qualify)

[Aquillion]

Tempest, to put it bluntly... they're awful.

Prestigious Paladin/Ranger: You get full BAB progression but lose HALF your caster levels. Not worth it for any druid or cleric, who can get equal or better combat ability through Wildshape/Divine Power while keeping all their casting ability. Both PruCs require divine spellcasting to enter, so pure fighter and monk are out as well (not that any fighter in his right mind would give up the bonus feats for this swill.)

Prestigious Bard: Marginally better than the above two, PruC Bard loses 4 caster levels in exchange for medium BAB progression and an additional good save (Reflex.) It requires arcane casting from three different schools to enter, which can put a strain on both the sorcerer's limited selection and the wizard's specialization. Sadly, two of those four levels are the 1st AND 3rd of the PruC, horribly gimping the sorcerer entry (compare a Sorcerer 6/PruC Bard 4 to a Sorcerer 10 and weep). Add in the BAB requirements (+3, meaning sorcs and wizards can't enter the class until 6) more intensive Perform requirements (e.g. 8 perform is required to countersong, instead of 3) and you have a failed class.

If I'm reading correctly, the advantage to this variant is the ability to mix the features of a couple of like-themed base classes without sacrificing as much effectiveness as straight multi-classing would. For example, a Cleric/PruC Paladin would have access to more spells and abilities than a normal Cleric/Paladin hybrid would. Prestigious classes might thus seem like a good idea.

The problem is that there are already far superior PrCs designed to do just that. For example, Sublime Chord allows you to mix Sorcerer and Bard abilities MUCH more effectively, and with better flavor to boot.Avoid like the plague.That's a bit harsh. The thing is... you're comparing them to straight full spellcasting or for more advanced PRCs, and of course they lose then. These are meant to replace core non-full-casting classes, of course they're going to be weak for anything but a short dip compared to full casters or any decent PRC published later. Compare the Prestige Bard to a regular bard, though, and it's not so bad -- even partial casting from the wiz/sorc list blows the bard list out of the water.

Paladins and Rangers give up a point or so of BAB and a few feats for a significantly enhanced spell list. On top of this, Paladins (and Rangers entering from Nature Domain clerics) get domains, which help a lot. And their spellcasting gets them more spells per level -- but they still get to learn the powerful unique spells for their class, often at a lower level and with more castings per day than they would get otherwise.

And if they enter another spellcasting PRC, they get to continue actually good spellcasting the whole way instead of the more limited one they get otherwise. This is noteworthy when using them to qualify for a PRC that requires their class features.

Are there better options elsewhere? Yes. But it does compare favorably to the straight core Bard / Paladin / Ranger, if used well... and I think that that's all it's supposed to do.

(Also, a fighter in his right mind will have multiclassed out of fighter into something better as soon as possible anyway. Fighter bonus feats are not that great.)

[Flickerdart]

The Paladin PruC is actually pretty good, as you get Mount on 2nd level, and can qualify with a single level of Cleric as long as you can get him Ride as a class skill somehow (can a domain do this?). That means that a Cleric 1/PruC Paladin 2 has a 5th level Paladin's mount, 2 levels before the regular Paladin gets his, which means he can soak up the HD penalty for a flying mount easier. Combine that with decent casting (and the ability to enjoy Cleric scrolls) and you can get a decent combatant with him.
Alternately, a Fighter can lose 1 point of BAB with a Cleric level in exchange for a flying mount and a bit of casting, plus real class features.

[Tengu_temp]

Since when a level 1 cleric has +4 BAB?

[Flickerdart]

Since when a level 1 cleric has +4 BAB?
Since I scrolled down too far to see that line. Damn, there goes that plan.

[Greymane]

Since when a level 1 cleric has +4 BAB?

Since you got yourself a DM crazy enough to allow you to take this flaw (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Compulsive_Killer_(DnD_Flaw)).

Close, but no cigar, though. You can enter in at level 2.

[Optimystik]

As full classes, no.

As dips, heck yes.

But that's my point. If you're using them as full classes, they lose; and if you're using them as dips, there are better PrCs out there to dip. The only time they shine is when certain (and by certain I mean "most") PrCs are banned in your campaign.

I did like the Favored Soul/PruC Paladin build though.

[Aquillion]

Since you got yourself a DM crazy enough to allow you to take this flaw (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Compulsive_Killer_(DnD_Flaw)).I think that the "in battle" part of that means it doesn't work, for the same reason you couldn't use Divine Power to qualify -- it's only a temporary advantage, not one you have all the time.

Although that's still a stupid-broken flaw. It's like giving someone bonus BAB and a free feat for being excessively dark and brooding... the wrong kind of player likes to play that kind of character anyway.

[Crow]

That's a bit harsh. The thing is... you're comparing them to straight full spellcasting or for more advanced PRCs, and of course they lose then. These are meant to replace core non-full-casting classes, of course they're going to be weak for anything but a short dip compared to full casters or any decent PRC published later. Compare the Prestige Bard to a regular bard, though, and it's not so bad -- even partial casting from the wiz/sorc list blows the bard list out of the water.

Paladins and Rangers give up a point or so of BAB and a few feats for a significantly enhanced spell list. On top of this, Paladins (and Rangers entering from Nature Domain clerics) get domains, which help a lot. And their spellcasting gets them more spells per level -- but they still get to learn the powerful unique spells for their class, often at a lower level and with more castings per day than they would get otherwise.

And if they enter another spellcasting PRC, they get to continue actually good spellcasting the whole way instead of the more limited one they get otherwise. This is noteworthy when using them to qualify for a PRC that requires their class features.

Are there better options elsewhere? Yes. But it does compare favorably to the straight core Bard / Paladin / Ranger, if used well... and I think that that's all it's supposed to do.

(Also, a fighter in his right mind will have multiclassed out of fighter into something better as soon as possible anyway. Fighter bonus feats are not that great.)

This man has nailed it.

[sonofzeal]

But that's my point. If you're using them as full classes, they lose; and if you're using them as dips, there are better PrCs out there to dip. The only time they shine is when certain (and by certain I mean "most") PrCs are banned in your campaign.

I did like the Favored Soul/PruC Paladin build though.
I see Prestigious Classes come up reasonably often in CharOp situations. They're generally used as touchstones to get into prestige classes specific to the base class, while minimizing level investment. Say, for example, your Warblade wanted to get into a PrC that required the "Special Mount" class feature. By taking Prestigious Paladin, he can get in with only two levels (and pick up some sweet stuff), rather than having to take five levels in the base Paladin class.

A little cheesy I'll admit, but it works and serves a purpose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In most of my games, I ban the Paladin and use the Prestegious Paladin as a template to make the different aligned paladins since I really don't like the variants listed, and I don't think a pally should be a base class.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm guessing all of these are intended to be teken by multiclass characters (eg: Rogue 3/Sorcerer 2 for the Bard, 3 full BAB levels and 1 Cleric/Druid level fot the Paladin and Ranger), so I don't think 1 or 2 Cleirc levels would work for this.

[Kroy]

Since when a level 1 cleric has +4 BAB?

Since you let Tippy make your character.

[Tempest Fennac]

Do any DMs apart from the one from Goblins allow that sort of thing?

[RebelRogue]

Actually, one campaign I'm currently DMing has an equal multiclass Cleric/Fighter (I didn't say it was optimal, but that's what he's doing), and for him the prestigious paladin makes a lot of sense (although I had to rework it to fit his alignment. Just a few tweakings of what to smite and so on, really).