Final Fantasy 4

[MrChris]

Inspired by the recent remake of Final Fantasy 4 on the DS, I dug into my archives and found my old copy of FF4 for the Playstation and started a new game. I'm playing the PS1 version instead of the DS version because it's supposed to be more or less identical to the original version of FF4 that was released in Japan.

I have to admit, I'm rather enjoying the game, even though the gameplay is extremely rudimentary by modern standards. You don't have any control over which characters are in your party at any given time, there's no real way to customize your characters' abilities, other than changing their equipment, and the plot is not particularly well developed (in those places where it's not entirely insane).

In spite of all this, however, I'm finding it to be pretty fun. While your party varies pretty wildly according to the dictates of the storyline (at least in the beginning of the game), I find it sort of comforting to not have any control over who's in the party. Sure, it means I can't necessarily min-max my way to victory, but it also means I won't accidentally screw myself over because I didn't obtain a particular skill or character earlier in the game. The gameplay challenge isn't so much building a killer party of characters so much as it is learning the best way to utilize the characters you happen to have available at the moment.

I'd also complain that the storyline runs on rails, but when I remember other RPGs that were available around the time FF4 came out, most of them tended to be light on plot and guidance for the player (the early Wizardry games, the Bard's Tale series), non-linear (Ultimas 1-6, Wasteland, many of the Gold Box AD&D games), or both. So while in some ways FF4 plays like the stereotypical linear Japanese-style RPG, I don't mind it so much if I keep in mind that at the time it came out, the plot-directed gameplay was actually fairly innovative, compared to many of its contemporaries. So while FF4 may not be the amazing console RPG experience that FF6 was, I still find it enjoyable as long as I consider it on its own terms, and don't expect it to have all the same gameplay elements as the other SNES-era Final Final games.

In any event, I'm interested to hear what other people have to say about the game, in any of its incarnations, so I thought I'd post here to try and start a discussion about FF4 as I play it.

Since I'm currently playing the game, I'll probably wind up talking most about whatever section I happen to be playing. At the moment I'm slogging through the Magnetic Cavern, which I recall being one of the most annoying gimmick dungeons in the game. It's especially annoying since it's the one section of the game so far where it would clearly be better to have a party full of spellcasters instead of fighters, and the only offensive spellcaster I have is Tellah, with his whopping 90 MP. Thanks a lot, Square.

[Oregano]

Having played the PS1 version and the DS version I have to say that the DS version is the superior one, much harder too.

It's a great game though and I'm glad Square Enix does remake it's games because they're great and also because they are usually the first time I get the chance to play 'em.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is such a great, classic game! Although FF6 has a better story and gameplay, FF4 will always hold a special place in my memory. It was my first Final Fantasy. Heck, probably my first real RPG. And even though the story is a little wonky in places, it gets bonus points for being EPIC shining Good vs hideously Evil. Plus, giant robots are always good. Also, recurring mind control = lulz. :smallamused:

I definitely recommend the PS1 version over the original SNES cartridge. For one, the "Hard-type" version of the game is way better than the "Easy-type". But here's the REAL REASON: They completely retranslated the game's script! The whole game reads much better now, and it makes the experience that much better compared to the old days of poorly translated Japanese games.

I kinda wanted to try the DS remake, but I don't have a DS. :smallannoyed::smallannoyed:

... ...

Ah, Magnet Cave! One of the most annoying dungeons in the game, right up there with the Dark Crystal cave with all the Trap Door monsters and the crushing wall boss. Not only is the Magnet Cave the most contrived dungeon in a FF game ever, but the Dark Elf boss totally makes no sense. By the SNES era, elves no longer exist in Final Fantasy games! And he basically comes out of nowhere (and he's really pissed off for some reason) just to make your quest to get the Earth Crystal more difficult: "You're here for the Crystal? Oops, some Elf came out of freakin' nowhere and stole it from us!" And it gives Edward something to do, that we don't care about, because he's Edward.

On the plus side, it's the only time you will EVER equip a bow on Cecil, which would be mildy interesting if Cecil didn't suck at archery. I'm positive that this dungeon is the only reason he can even equip them at all.

[Enlong]

This is such a great, classic game! Although FF6 has a better story and gameplay, FF4 will always hold a special place in my memory. It was my first Final Fantasy. Heck, probably my first real RPG. And even though the story is a little wonky in places, it gets bonus points for being EPIC shining Good vs hideously Evil. Plus, giant robots are always good. Also, recurring mind control = lulz. :smallamused:

I definitely recommend the PS1 version over the original SNES cartridge. For one, the "Hard-type" version of the game is way better than the "Easy-type". But here's the REAL REASON: They completely retranslated the game's script! The whole game reads much better now, and it makes the experience that much better compared to the old days of poorly translated Japanese games.

I kinda wanted to try the DS remake, but I don't have a DS. :smallannoyed::smallannoyed:

... ...

Ah, Magnet Cave! One of the most annoying dungeons in the game, right up there with the Dark Crystal cave with all the Trap Door monsters and the crushing wall boss. Not only is the Magnet Cave the most contrived dungeon in a FF game ever, but the Dark Elf boss totally makes no sense. By the SNES era, elves no longer exist in Final Fantasy games! And he basically comes out of nowhere (and he's really pissed off for some reason) just to make your quest to get the Earth Crystal more difficult: "You're here for the Crystal? Oops, some Elf came out of freakin' nowhere and stole it from us!" And it gives Edward something to do, that we don't care about, because he's Edward.

On the plus side, it's the only time you will EVER equip a bow on Cecil, which would be mildy interesting if Cecil didn't suck at archery. I'm positive that this dungeon is the only reason he can even equip them at all.

Would you belive that the DS remake makes Edward not only useful, but useful enough that I hated losing him after Fabul?


Also: get this, the Japanese-only, mobile phone sequel to FFIV? It's coming out on the Wii, in North America, this year!

[Mando Knight]

Also: get this, the Japanese-only, mobile phone sequel to FFIV? It's coming out on the Wii, in North America, this year!

What? Who told you that? When? WiiWare? *Must get*

[Assassin89]

I have only played the DS version, and I am near the end.
FFIV is one of my favorite final fantasy games I have played, since there is a good story.
I would enjoy seeing the sequel to FFIV.

[MrChris]

Oregano: Oddly enough, for the longest time I used to be annoyed at Square-Enix for constantly re-releasing the older Final Fantasy games, but I've recently come around to your way of thinking. One of the downsides with videogaming as a hobby is that so many classic games were made for machines which are now obsolete and often difficult to acquire. So if porting or remaking games on newer systems means that today's gamers can enjoy yesterday's classics, I'm all for it. And if the old Final Fantasy library gives S-E enough of a stable income to allow them to take risks with new franchises, so much the better.

Killian: I'm glad to hear they retranslated the script. As I've been playing, I've been thinking the dialogue was better than I remembered, so it's good to know I'm not going senile. I agree that the Dark Elf was kind of random, but I just chalked it up to Square's tendency to re-use certain iconic elements throughout the series. In FF1, the Dark Elf was the first really difficult boss, and the other major mid-game bosses were the elemental fiends. I've been assuming that FF4's inclusion of four fiends and one dark elf was a callback to the original game; they just change up the order a bit. And I hear you about Edward being useless. In games where you get to select your own party, I like experimenting with the "useless" or "underpowered" characters, because there's often some sort of way to get decent mileage out of them. Edward is not one of those characters, sadly. his ability to inflict status effects could actually be useful, but he's just too squishy for sustained combat. Ideally, he would be a good support character for inflicting negative status on enemies, especially if he were protected by a wall of meatshields. Most of the time he's in the party, though, the majority of your other party members are similarly squishy mages. What a waste.

Enlong: Speaking of Edward, I'm interested to know how the DS version improves him. A friend of mine has the DS one, and it sounds as though several of the characters' abilities (Cecil's Dark attack, Edward's Sing) have been made more useful. Is this actually the case?

---

Anyway, Magnet Cave. I just completed that dungeon, and it annoyed me intensely. A lot of the bosses in this game are gimmick bosses (the Mist Dragon's mist form and counterattack being the first such encounter), and once you understand what their gimmick is, the fight becomes much easier. The Magnet Cave is an entire gimmick dungeon, and a pointless one at that. The reason it's pointless is because of one simple factor that a lot of people seem to overlook: there's nothing wrong with running away. Sure, you may drop a couple hundred gil occasionally, but it's still cheaper than what you'd spend on tents to use at the save points if you tried to fight your way through the dungeon.

The Dark Elf is going to rampage over you during the first round of the boss fight anyway, so it doesn't really matter what sort of equipment you use. Then, once Edward uses the power of song to tame the force of magnetism, there's nothing to stop you from equipping all your spiffy mythril armor and weapons and knocking the Dark Elf into next week. Basically, you don't actually need to win any fights in the cave as long as the magnetic field is in effect. You can use non-metal equipment if you want, but it's really not necessary, hence the pointlessness of that entire business.

Also, I take back what I said about Edward being weak. His music apparently allows him to control the fundamental forces of the universe. Or one of them, at least. It's probably best not to talk too much smack about a guy like that.

[afroakuma]

This is still one of my favorite Final Fantasy games, and I think on a "classic" level takes home top prize.

Classic characters, classic music (the whole soundtrack just screams Final Fantasy), classic baddies (taken to excess by asspulling Astos for the Magnet Cave), plot tied to gameplay elements in a seamless fashion, the largest party available in any non-Tactics FF, a long adventure, sidequests that actually check on loose threads, a huge cast, some of the series' most memorable moments, four vehicles, three world maps and botched translations so awesome that they were forcibly retained for the later releases.

Not to mention it's a fantasy game that lets you fight robots and where the villain is an alien - and it still stays credible.

Regardless of graphics, or railroading, or skewy dialogue from time to time, it was my first FF and remains my sentimental favorite.

[Enlong]

What? Who told you that? When? WiiWare? *Must get*

Final Fantasy IV The After: Return of the Moon, I first heard of it on another forum, sometime this year, and yeah, WiiWare. It was originally on mobile phones, if you'll belive it. Oh, and it stars Cecil's son, and includes a system much like the combination techs from Chrono Trigger.

[Tengu_temp]

Ah, Final Fantasy 4, probably the most overrated of them all - while it was great and revolutionary for its time, it has aged rather badly - while FF5, which many consider inferior to 4, has much more cliche storyline, its gameplay, atmosphere and characters are way superior. The DS version probably is much better and fixes a lot of 4's problems, and the SNES version is still a good game, just not as good as legions of fans looking at it through the lens of nostalgia want you to believe, if ya ask me.

[Oregano]

Edward gets a cool regen ability in FFIV DS which makes him the best healer for a long while. His other abilities are useful but the regen ability(song of health or something) overshadows them all.

I liked Edward anyway, he may not have been that useful but I liked his characterisation, him at the ending cutscene thing was just awesome and heartwarming.

[afroakuma]

Oh, I agree: from a gameplay standpoint, FFIV is fun but not revolutionary or unique. I can't agree on atmosphere or characters, though. The best characterizations from FFV felt flat to me compared to most of the FFIV cast.

Ultimately, it boils down to taste. People all have differences of opinion.

[Oregano]

Well, FFIV was revolutionary in combat, it introduced the ATB we know and love.

[Totally Guy]

I got this when it hit the playstation and I went through it on the 2 player mode with my youngest brother. He was always Cecil and whichever other cool character there was and I got to be whoever else was in the party.

With just a little help I made that the first game my little brother played all the way through.

I loved the way that all the characters died at some point only to come back later to say "I'm ok really". Except Tellah. But the funniest were Yang and Cid.

I liked it when Cecil gained 9 levels in a single fight. When he becomes a paladin his level reverts to 1 and then sky rockets.

I liked it when we though Edward could be played as a healer then he managed to use up all our potions without us knowing.

A true paladin sheaths his sword!

[Dacia Brabant]

I loved the way that all the characters died at some point only to come back later to say "I'm ok really". Except Tellah. But the funniest were Yang and Cid.

Oh man the frying pan over the head was great, and we all know what Yang was really doing down there in the Sylph Cave. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

I tried playing the PS1 version but the constant loading times were unbearable. I don't think I would want to go back to the SNES version again though, the translation's just so bad and filled with Nintendo of America censorship nonsense, though despite all that they did manage to make some memorable characters. You have to admit that Cecil going from Dark Knight to Paladin is pretty cool even if you're not a fan of that class type.

One of these days I'm going to have to pick up a DS and get the remake.

[MrChris]

I also quite liked the class change, and all the plot elements leading up to it. Climbing the mountain, fighting the Fiend of Earth, overcoming Cecil's dark side, getting the holy sword, Cecil being redeemed and reborn as a 1st level paladin: it was all very Hero's Journey. Plus, this was back in the days when being a paladin was serious business. Granted, it wasn't as awesome as becoming a paladin in Quest for Glory 2, but it was still pretty cool in any case.

Something else just occured to me. Cecil climbs Mt. Ordeals to save Rosa and protect the world from Golbez, so he goes from being the offensively-oriented Dark Knight (whose only purpose was to do the bidding of his king) to being a Paladin, adding some additional defensive and healing abilities in combat which mirror his character development. Tellah, on the other hand, joins the journey up Mt. Ordeals for the sole purpose of gaining magical power so he can destroy Golbez. Sure, he regains all his spells (plus Meteo), but he doesn't get a spiffy class change, and, well, things don't work out too well for him in the end.

Actually, now that I think about it, Cecil is the only character who really benefits from climber Mt. Ordeals. The whole adventure really turns out to be an epic screwjob for Tellah, Palom, and Porom.

While I'm still not entirely happy with my complete lack of ability to control my characters' development in this game, I do like how their stats do match their characterization. Dark Knight Cecil feels constrained by his circumstances, expected to subsume his own personality to that of his king and his role as the wielder of the dark sword, so he has abysmal wisdom and willpower stats (and the better pieces of dark knight equipment diminish them even further). Once he's atoned for his crimes and become Paladin Cecil, though, his mental stats skyrocket, particularly his willpower. I like to think of it as indicating that he's become a stronger person by acting in accordance with his own moral code, whereas he was weaker as a dark knight because of the conflict between his morals and his duty. Of course, it may also just be because Cecil's willpower needs to be high if his new white magic is going to be at all useful.

The other major example of stats being influenced by characterization is of course Tellah. None of his stats seem to improve with experience, except of HP, and his vitality actually declines as he gains levels. Once he regains knowledge of all his spells, he should be a great all-around caster; the only problem is he's perpetually stuck with 90 MP, which every other magic-using character can quickly surpass. Once again, though, this fits entirely with his character development: he's a famous and learned sage, but he's also old and past his prime. In gameplay terms, this manifests in his ability to dish out massive damage with high-level black magic, as well as his inability to cast more than 2 or 3 high level spells without resting.

In my current playthrough, I've just gotten to the underworld. A friend of mine back in university once described FF4 as being a manual for how to extend a pen-and-paper RPG campaign if your plot wraps up faster than you expected. "What? Golbez got all the elemental crystals? Well, umm. . . luckily, he didn't get the OTHER four crystals that are underground! If you hurry, maybe you can still stop him!"

One thing I'm not clear on is how Rosa gained more than 15 levels while she was being held hostage by Golbez and Kain. I guess prison can really be a transformative experience. Not that I'm complaining: having a level 30 white mage with 250 MP has extended my party's longevity immensely.

I do have to issues with the frequent depiction of female characters (particularly love interests) in RPGs as healer/support characters, but I don't want to go into it right now. Luckily, that seems to be less common these days. I did like the twist that FF10 gave to the phenomenon, though. While Yuna was the primary healer in combat, in plot terms she was the one character the party revolved around. Rosa, by contrast, seems to live mostly to follow Cecil around and occasionally get kidnapped. Does her usefulness as a healer make up for her generally cliched characterization? I'm not sure that it does.

[Oregano]

Well Rosa can also dish out some hefty damage with a bow. That's good.

[MrChris]

Well Rosa can also dish out some hefty damage with a bow. That's good.

That's a good point; she's a spectacular healer who can deal out respectable physical damage on those rare occasions she's not healing everyone. She's actually a really great character, in terms of gameplay. I'm just not sure I like her characterization or her role in the plot.

On the other hand, none of the characters get a whole lot of development, by modern standards, so I guess I can't really complain too much.

One thing that would have made Cecil's character arc more interesting would be if the player got to spend a bit more time controlling him as a dark knight. By the time the game begins, Cecil is already doubting his role and feeling remorse for his action, so he's already on the road to redemption. That whole plotline might have had even more impact had the player had some time to get used to Cecil as an unstoppable badass carrying out his king's wishes, before he begins questioning the king's orders. Quite a few games have done that since then, including FF6 (briefly) and pretty much every game in the Suikoden series. If your PCs are going to switch sides partway through the game, it always helps to have a chance to see precisely what they're rebelling against.

Also, having just gotten Rydia in my party again, I have to say she's an absolute wrecking machine now. I do give Square credit for making the two major female characters two of the most effective characters in the game.

[Zen Monkey]

I'm going to have to go out and pick up the PS1 remakes of FF4 and FF6 now, having been thoroughly happy with them when they first came out and reminded of them by all of you. Yeah, they're simple by today's standards, but I'd often rather play something like X-Com or PS:Torment than alot of the 8-hour graphics demos that get passed off as quality games today.

FF1 might be the exception, loved it when it was new, but even my nostalgia powers may not save that one.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I haven't played much FFIV (I'll get around to it eventually) but if you like strong female characters, FFVI is actually a great one. The two most important female characters are practically broken, especially Terra. They beat out the closest the game has to a male lead by a wide margin in terms of plot importance and end-game power. Of course, that might be because the game doesn't really have a "main" character like Cecil or Bartz or Cloud, but an ensemble cast who all get focus at different times. Except the mascot characters, kupo.

[Dacia Brabant]

I do have to issues with the frequent depiction of female characters (particularly love interests) in RPGs as healer/support characters, but I don't want to go into it right now. Luckily, that seems to be less common these days. I did like the twist that FF10 gave to the phenomenon, though. While Yuna was the primary healer in combat, in plot terms she was the one character the party revolved around. Rosa, by contrast, seems to live mostly to follow Cecil around and occasionally get kidnapped. Does her usefulness as a healer make up for her generally cliched characterization? I'm not sure that it does.

As I recall Rosa did become a White Mage to protect Cecil, which makes sense considering his Dark Knight powers are dangerous to him. Sure that's a support role and a cliche, but every good damage-dealer should know that he's nothing without his healer to keep him going and their relationship seems to reflect that. Now reversing their genders and having Cecil be the White Mage and Rosa the Dark Knight/Paladin would be interesting, but that would necessitate major changes to Golbez and Kain and certain plot points like the kidnapping.

And though it's short there is a scene late in the game that strikes a blow on behalf of women's equality, and for what it's worth Troia/Toroia is ruled by a circle of women.

Maybe it's just me but I actually thought Square did a better job with this stuff back in the SNES days than the Sony era.

[Oregano]

Well despite the appearance of some characters(Tifa), they've never had a weak female character really, they've certainly had cliched staff chicks but they've practically always had a strong personality.

[Cubey]

Is that so? Rosa striked me as a pretty weak character. Not mechanically, but obviously plot-wise, what with her getting abducted by the bad guys every five minutes or so. And don't get me started on Garnet from FF IX...
If you want strong heroines in a FF game other than VI, look no farther than Faris. Actually, an even better case. Look no farther than Agrias.

But then, "striking a blow for women's equality" in videogames is a mostly unnecessary concept since the times of the first Metroid, and when trying to do so deliberately you usually come off as insultingly condescending instead. Not that I dislike strong female characters, on the contrary. But only when they're genuine, and not Affirmative Action Girls.

[Dacia Brabant]

Is that so? Rosa striked me as a pretty weak character. Not mechanically, but obviously plot-wise, what with her getting abducted by the bad guys every five minutes or so.

One time, she was abducted one time! Sheesh! :smalltongue: I mean c'mon, not only was she a weak point for Cecil but also for Kain, what villain wouldn't use that as leverage against both his chief opponent and his mind-controlled underling?

I'll agree with you on Faris and Agrias though, solid woman-warriors both.

[Oregano]

Yes but she never gave into them. Plus she travelled through the desert on her own early in the game(sure she got sick but she was on her own!). Rosa and Rydia almost pretty much boss the male characters around towards the end and when the men have the sexist idea that the women shouldn't fight they sneak on board anyway.

I'm not saying all their female characters are strong female characters but there's never really been a weak female.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not saying all their female characters are strong female characters but there's never really been a weak female.Rinoa. After her first couple of scenes, anyway. And I mean as a character, not mechanically, as her last Limit Break is nearly as broken as Squall's.

[tyckspoon]

Nerd-O, are you talking about Angel Wing or Wishing Star? Angel Wing isn't broken unless you go out of your way to make it so.. if you don't, Rinoa will spend like 80% of her turns casting useless status spells instead of Meteor. If it's Wishing Star, that's still not broken compared to Squall. A good Renzokuken will do Wishing Star-level damage even before the chance of triggering Lionheart.. and Wishing Star isn't even the best Angelo limit. That'd be Invincible Moon.

(And yes, Rinoa becomes a passive plot-toy not too far into the game. Somewhere after Squall chews her out for taking being in a revolutionary freedom group seriously.. attempting to give Edea the Odine bangle is probably the last proactive thing she does.)

[Oregano]

Rinoa. After her first couple of scenes, anyway. And I mean as a character, not mechanically, as her last Limit Break is nearly as broken as Squall's.

Good point, she starts out strong though and then just loses it after a certain point.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Nerd-O, are you talking about Angel Wing or Wishing Star? Angel Wing isn't broken unless you go out of your way to make it so.. if you don't, Rinoa will spend like 80% of her turns casting useless status spells instead of Meteor. If it's Wishing Star, that's still not broken compared to Squall. A good Renzokuken will do Wishing Star-level damage even before the chance of triggering Lionheart.. and Wishing Star isn't even the best Angelo limit. That'd be Invincible Moon.Angel Wing, and okay, breakable, not broken, how about that?

[Eldariel]

I just recently had the chance to play emulated FFIV hard type with a completely fanmade translation. Oh my god how awesome it is! FF2 is just a mere shadow of the game. Really, FFVI is my favourite Final Fantasy, but after this experience, I'll have to say that FFIV has taken a solid second place before FFVII.

The game mechanics are a bit more primitive, but I actually prefer great many things about it to more modern JRPGs (like how there're tons of overlaps in weapon proficiencies and different characters can actually (*gasp*) use the same weapons! Oh, and the whole Martinish character lifespan and the party size limit isn't artificial but the actual limit of combat capable characters around right now) and it's just a compelling story and even random encounters can make for exciting, enjoyable fights in the hard version (especially with the whole "solo opponents go berserk"-thing and very lethal counter attacks like Blaster).

[MrChris]

Final Fantasy 8 just got weird after the assassination attempt, and Rinoa's derailment is just one part of that. It's a shame, really, because I remember that sequence as being the first time Squall really showed much in the way of leadership ability or empathy. It would have been nice if both Squall and Rinoa had continued to get more character development, and if the plot hadn't suddenly veered off into nowhere with all the time-traveling sorceresses and monsters falling from the moon and whatnot.

Scylfing: you make a good point about Rosa's decision to become a white mage to help Cecil making sense in light of the self-destructive nature of Cecil's dark knight powers. It's not really made explicit in the dialogue, but that dynamic is borne out in the battle scenes during the relatively short time that both Rosa and Dark Knight Cecil are in the party. If he uses the Dark Sword attack too often, he requires pretty much constant healing.

I'm currently in the underworld, going through the Tower of Babil dungeon, and I'm noticing that Paladin Cecil also works really well with Rosa. Since Cecil will automatically use his Cover ability to protect critically-wounded characters from physical attacks, he can usually buy a little extra time for Rosa to heal wounded characters before they're killed.

Basically, when Cecil is a dark knight, the support goes one way: Cecil (potentially) burns through HP to kill the enemies, and Rosa heals him to keep him alive. When Cecil is a paladin, it's no longer a case of Rosa unilaterally supporting Cecil. Instead, Cecil and Rosa work together to keep the rest of the party alive. That's kind of a neat example of the way story elements are integrated with gameplay elements in FF4.

Assuming it's intentional on the part of the designers, of course. I may be reading too much into it. On the other hand, it doesn't strike me as being particularly far-fetched, given how much importance is attached to Cecil's class change by the other characters, and considering that Cecil's promotion isn't just an upgrade: his combat abilities as a paladin are considerably different from those available to him as a dark knight.

In terms of gameplay mechanics, another thing I like about FF4 (and FF6, which took it to an even greater degree) is that it does away with generic "fighter" characters. Each of the characters who specializes in physical combat has at least one special ability which gives them a unique role in combat. Early CRPGs tended to make fighter-types somewhat boring: in the original Wizardry trilogy, mages and priests had dozens of spells at their command, while fighters, thieves, and ninjas could only select "Fight" time and time again; the Bard's Tale games were even crazier in this regard. While Yang's flying kicks or Kain's death from above shtick might not be very visually impressive in this era of Limit Breaks and Unskippable Summoning Cutscenes, they were quite cool back in the day, and are still kind of fun now. It's rather gratifying to see Kain jump off the screen seconds before an area-effect spell hits the rest of the party, especially when you know that it's only a matter of time before he drops onto his target to inflict quadruple-digit damage.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Aw, but the SNES version had some great Woolseyisms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism)!

"You spoony bard" indeed :smallamused:

[Oregano]

Aw, but the SNES version had some great Woolseyisms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism)!

"You spoony bard" indeed :smallamused:

Indeed, and the DS remake keeps the woolseyisms.

[Enlong]

Indeed, and the DS remake keeps the woolseyisms.

"But the bard was spoony! We checked."

[afroakuma]

Well, that's like the original classic stupidity (I don't think it could ever be called a Woolseyism, but...) from the original Final Fantasy, which the fans shouted back in to its later rereleases:


I, Garland, will knock you all down! (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020216)

[MrChris]

Ahh, the classic questionable translations, combined with classic Nintendo corporate censorship. Actual references to death had to be rare and circumspect, even though the gameplay in most CRPGs can be summed up with the instructions "Kill enemies, and keep killing until you've saved the world." Man, imagine if that had been the tagline for Heroes. I'd probably still be watching it.

I remember that the American SNES version of FF4 even had its religious reference stripped out. I recall that the big building in Mysidia was dubbed the Tower of Wishes or some such, and inside there are a bunch of mages who look like they're praying. But they're not praying, they "wishing." Really intently. On their knees. But it's not a religious thing, really! I don't recall Rosa having the Pray command in that one, either.

Also, on the subject of death (or apparent death) in FF4, what's the deal with Yang's sacrifice, anyway? The cannons in the Tower of Babil are blowing up, and his response is to say "Leave this to me," kick everyone out of the room, and lock the door? Since the closed door could apparently contain the explosion, why doesn't he just leave with everyone else? Why does he need to be in the room? He a kung-fu fightin' monk in a medievalish fantasy world, and has demonstrated no mechanical aptitude at any point in the game; exactly what is he supposed to accomplish, locked in the control room for the tower's anachrotech supercannons?

I do like how in the PS1 version, when Palom and Porom turn to stone, Tellah tries to cast Esuna on them, which prompts an explanation as to why they can't be restored. On the other hand, I'm quite fond of the explanation I came up with back in the days of the SNES: namely, that if you unpetrify them, the room would continue to collapse and everyone would die. Among other things, I think that this explanation has a certain charming simplicity to it, and I expect that Mr. Occam and his razor agree with me.

Incidentally, I was always disappointed that Planescape: Torment didn't have a weapon called Occam's Straight Razor. Torment's failure to conform to this entirely unwarranted and unrealistic expectation on my part is widely regarded as the only significant blemish on what is otherwise a masterpiece of a game.

[tyckspoon]

I remember that the American SNES version of FF4 even had its religious reference stripped out. I recall that the big building in Mysidia was dubbed the Tower of Wishes or some such, and inside there are a bunch of mages who look like they're praying. But they're not praying, they "wishing." Really intently. On their knees. But it's not a religious thing, really! I don't recall Rosa having the Pray command in that one, either.

Also, on the subject of death (or apparent death) in FF4, what's the deal with Yang's sacrifice, anyway? The cannons in the Tower of Babil are blowing up, and his response is to say "Leave this to me," kick everyone out of the room, and lock the door? Since the closed door could apparently contain the explosion, why doesn't he just leave with everyone else? Why does he need to be in the room? He a kung-fu fightin' monk in a medievalish fantasy world, and has demonstrated no mechanical aptitude at any point in the game; exactly what is he supposed to accomplish, locked in the control room for the tower's anachrotech supercannons?


Rosa did have Pray, which is a little unusual since most of the other character-specific abilities got stripped out of the Easytype port that was the original US FFIV. As for Yang, he did what any self-respecting Martial Arts dude would do: he Kick'd the explosion into submission.

[Oregano]

Rosa did have Pray, which is a little unusual since most of the other character-specific abilities got stripped out of the Easytype port that was the original US FFIV. As for Yang, he did what any self-respecting Martial Arts dude would do: he Kick'd the explosion into submission.

That sounds about right. I think he damaged the guns enough to make sure they couldn't overload as much, presumably the damage would have been much more other wise...

[MrChris]

Rosa did have Pray, which is a little unusual since most of the other character-specific abilities got stripped out of the Easytype port that was the original US FFIV. As for Yang, he did what any self-respecting Martial Arts dude would do: he Kick'd the explosion into submission.

Yes, this sounds entirely plausible by the game's standards. There was probably some really cool boss fight against the explosions we never got to see, and Yang's Kick attack was the only way he could defeat all of them in time to prevent the entire tower from blowing up. He probably earned a crapload of gil and experience from that fight, too. It's a shame he wasn't in the party at the time so I didn't get any of it.

Oh, and I'd forgotten about Cid. Cid and his brilliant plan to jump off the airship with a bomb in order to seal the passage between the surface and the underworld. That scene could have used more Dr. Strangelove references, if you ask me. And how did he survive that? I can only assume that he was thrown clear of the blast. . . by the blast.

It seems that the primary purpose of having so many dudes blowing up in quick succession is to inject some quick n' cheap drama into the story, and also to make Rosa and Rydia cry. This last is important, because it turns out that a lady's tears are the only way to move the heart of a ninja. Or something like that. It's too bad that Edge is sort of a wuss compared to Yang. And the rest of the party. Hopefully he gets better when he gains a few levels. I also hope he's learned that it's a bad idea to attack the Fiend of Fire with the Blaze spell. I swear, the boy doesn't have the common sense the gods gave a cantaloupe. Maybe Rosa can Pray for him.

[Oregano]

Edge does become a lot more useful as he levels up and gets better equipment. He's still the most vulnerable at the end due to pathetic magic resistance but he can eventually dish out the damage.

[afroakuma]

...with the almighty SPOOOON!!!

[Oracle_Hunter]

...with the almighty SPOOOON!!!


:biggrin:

Oh, the Spoon of Yang. Good times.

Of course, I was a cheating bastard in the SNES version, so I was chucking Excaliburs and Holy Lances the whole time :smalltongue:

[Dacia Brabant]

I always wanted to be able to equip the Frying Pan on someone. Thankfully Chrono Cross came along and made that finally possible. :smalltongue:


I have to agree that the game's method of dispatching Cid was, well, absurd, especially when they were just going to have him come back. (Maybe someone used a Life PotionPhoenix Down on him.) With Yang though I always figured he somehow turned the cannon on itself or caused it to misfire--an explanation would've helped though yeah.

The twins' demise was probably the saddest but maybe makes the least sense considering the party should've been able to blow up one of the doors in that room for how powerful their magic was, but I guess it's not a good idea to think to hard about these things.

I remember reading that something on the order of 75 percent of the game's script had to be cut or condensed to fit the hardware's limitations. Man if that's true imagine how much deeper it could've been.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I have to agree that the game's method of dispatching Cid was, well, absurd, especially when they were just going to have him come back. (Maybe someone used a Life PotionPhoenix Down on him.) With Yang though I always figured he somehow turned the cannon on itself or caused it to misfire--an explanation would've helped though yeah.

Did Yang really die in the DS version? In SNES, he got boomed to the Slyph Cave - which is as silly as Cid's "death."

But seriously, Final Fantasy does not have a good track record (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=176) of this sort of thing. :smalltongue:

[Assassin89]

Did Yang really die in the DS version? In SNES, he got boomed to the Slyph Cave - which is as silly as Cid's "death."

But seriously, Final Fantasy does not have a good track record (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=176) of this sort of thing. :smalltongue:

He's not dead in the DS version, he's still arrives at the Sylph Cave.

When combating certain enemies, I developed some interesting strategies. For example, when the dark sages attack, I use reflect in order to cause them to kill each other.

[Mando Knight]

I always wanted to be able to equip the Frying Pan on someone. Thankfully Chrono Cross came along and made that finally possible. :smalltongue:

And then Super Mario RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG) jumped the timestream and beat Chrono Cross out by a couple o' years...

[Dacia Brabant]

And then Super Mario RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG) jumped the timestream and beat Chrono Cross out by a couple o' years...

Ah, well I never did play that one. That's amusing though, you mean you can do attacks in that game besides jumping on heads and throwing turtle shells? :smallwink:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah, well I never did play that one. That's amusing though, you mean you can do attacks in that game besides jumping on heads and throwing turtle shells? :smallwink:

My god yes! Bowser has a move where he chucks Mario at the enemies.

Oh, and Geno has guns-for-arms. And sometimes rocket punches!

[MrChris]

I remember reading that something on the order of 75 percent of the game's script had to be cut or condensed to fit the hardware's limitations. Man if that's true imagine how much deeper it could've been.

That interesting, if true. Years ago, when I was playing the SNES version, I got the impression that there was (or could have been) a lot more dialogue in some scenes than was actually the case. I do have the impression that as a written language, Japanese is a lot more compact than English, which would cut down on the amount of storage space used. I also seem to recall reading that translators used to run into problems because they couldn't change the number of size of dialogue boxes they had to work with; if this was indeed the case, I can see where that would require a massive cut in the amount of text you could have. I assume that today's translators don't have to labor under the same limitations, since video game localization is a much bigger business these days, and seems much more professionalized as well.





When combating certain enemies, I developed some interesting strategies. For example, when the dark sages attack, I use reflect in order to cause them to kill each other.

Yeah, I'm noticing that the random encounters in many areas become much easier with a little bit of planning, especially once you know which enemies have instant-death attacks and which ones have counterattacks which charm your characters. Have I mentioned I hate the Tower of Babil, by the way? I also find that things go much more smoothly if you're not shy about changing your characters' weapons in the middle of combat. Cecil and Kain have a wide variety of weapons, each of which seems to be super effective against at least one class of enemies. Swapping around their weapons to take advantage of each enemy's weakness allows each of them to kill most normal enemies in one shot. Actually, if I equip Kain with the Ogre Axe, he can one-shot just about anything with his Jump attack.

I've never played Super Mario RPG, because for some reason the whole Mario franchise doesn't seem to engage me these days; sort of weird, considering how much of my childhood revolved around Super Mario Brothers. Although as long as we're on the subject of Nintendo-owned RPG franchises, didn't Earthbound allow some characters to wield frying pans? Or was I just hallucinating that (or more likely hallucinating the entire game)?

[Mando Knight]

My god yes! Bowser has a move where he chucks Mario at the enemies.

Oh, and Geno has guns-for-arms. And sometimes rocket punches!

And getting through the forest is super-simple, all you have to do is follow his path there... for the rest of your gaming life! (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/382576)

Watch out, I know about Timed Hits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeKnowsAboutTimedHits)!

Undoubtedly one of the best RPGs. Ever. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperMarioRPG)

[MrChris]

I have discovered that when you beat Rubicant, there's a bit of dialogue which perfectly sums up the plot of Final Fantasy 4. I reproduce it here in its entirety:



Edge: Okay, let's go bust up Golbez.

Rydia: We need to get the Crystals first.

Edge: Whatever. Lead the way.



Also, after being dropped into the lower section of the tower, I beat a Queen Lamia and was rewarded with the most pointless equipment drop I've seen yet: a Lamia Harp. Mind you, the only character who could use harps hasn't been in my party since the earliest sections of the game, and will never be in my party again. And he already had an identical harp when he left the party in any case! I guess the designers just thought it would make sense for a lamia to carry one, regardless of how useless it is.

[Enlong]

I remember reading that something on the order of 75 percent of the game's script had to be cut or condensed to fit the hardware's limitations. Man if that's true imagine how much deeper it could've been.

Well, the DS version managed to restore some of the missing story. For example, y'can read the character's thoughts at various intervals when you pause the game, giving some insightful info from their point of view (sometimes), and after beating CPU, you get to play through a scene that wasn't in the original versions, where you find out about Cecil and Golbez's early childhood, and exactly when Golbez was turned by Zemus

[MrChris]

Well, the DS version managed to restore some of the missing story. For example, y'can read the character's thoughts at various intervals when you pause the game, giving some insightful info from their point of view (sometimes), [...]

That's kind of neat. I recall reading somewhere (probably TV Tropes) that those little glimpses of the characters' thoughts provides some useful insights into the enigma that is Kain. Especially once you get to the Sealed Cave.

The last time I played, I was just gearing up for the Sealed Cave by exploring the two optional dungeons in the underworld. I seem to recall this being approximately the point at which I stopped playing the SNES version, and I'm starting to see why. I'd thought I was somewhat overleveled, given how easily my party slaughtered Rubicant, but the encounters in the optional dungeons were pretty brutal. The Sylvan Cave, for example, is the first place in the game where Malboros appear, and everyone loves those, right? I know that the purpose of this segment is to gear up my party for yet another final confrontation with Golbez, but it's not particularly compelling. It's also the first time that random encounters have been serious threats, rather than speed bumps. As a result, I'm finding this section to be somethign of a slog.

On the bright side, after a trip to the land of summoned monsters, my party now has the best armor money can buy (the game provides so many weapons as loot from treasure chests that I don't have to buy them very often). I just need to gain another level or two, and I'll be ready to challenge Asura and Leviathan, which should be fun. Rydia needs some new summons in any case.

One of the most bizarre encounters in these dungeons is the Toad Lady. She's kind of like your local crazy cat lady, if the crazy cat lady were into toads instead of cats, and lived in a cave instead of a walk-up apartment. She accompanied by a group of toads who cast the Toad spell, heedless of whether they're casting it on a healthy character or one who's already a toad. So you get this crazy toad roulette, and you never know who's going to be a human and who's going to be a toad at the end. Neither the toads nor the Toad Lady appear to have any attacks which cause damage, though, so they're not dangerous in the least. Just a strange, sometimes annoying encounter which gives you a couple thousand free gil and experience points.

It's still better than the Malboros (who hit a character with every status effect in the book) or Fiends (who charm one of your characters every time they take damage). Still, as annoying as the enemies are at this stage, at least they require a certain degree of strategy and attention. And once I've gained a couple more levels so I'm prepared to bust up Golbez, I'm going to leave these optional dungeons behind and never look back.

Until I decide I want to get the Spoon, anyway.

[Enlong]

Oh yeah, I think I wrote that little thing about Kain into TVTropes. Likened his thoughts to an Apocalyptic Log.

You know the real weird thing about the Toad Witch? Try killing all her toads and leaving her alive. She then goes ahead and Toadifies herself! What?

[Surrealistik]

Oh yeah, I think I wrote that little thing about Kain into TVTropes. Likened his thoughts to an Apocalyptic Log.

You know the real weird thing about the Toad Witch? Try killing all her toads and leaving her alive. She then goes ahead and Toadifies herself! What?

Haha, yeah, I've noticed. Bitch is crazy.



Also, on the subject of death (or apparent death) in FF4, what's the deal with Yang's sacrifice, anyway? The cannons in the Tower of Babil are blowing up, and his response is to say "Leave this to me," kick everyone out of the room, and lock the door? Since the closed door could apparently contain the explosion, why doesn't he just leave with everyone else? Why does he need to be in the room? He a kung-fu fightin' monk in a medievalish fantasy world, and has demonstrated no mechanical aptitude at any point in the game; exactly what is he supposed to accomplish, locked in the control room for the tower's anachrotech supercannons?

I don't think they were blowing up so much as that they were impossible to stop due to the operators irreparably damaging the controls, so Yang had to kick the living crap out of the cannon mechanisms, causing the explosion. At least that's the sense I got from the DS version.



While I'm still not entirely happy with my complete lack of ability to control my characters' development in this game, I do like how their stats do match their characterization. Dark Knight Cecil feels constrained by his circumstances, expected to subsume his own personality to that of his king and his role as the wielder of the dark sword, so he has abysmal wisdom and willpower stats (and the better pieces of dark knight equipment diminish them even further).

The dark armour and weapons actually sap the willpower and spirit of their users. I expect the reason is to make them more susceptible to Golbez and Zemus' mental domination. It would also explain why all alternate weapons and armour were banned from Baron.


One thing that would have made Cecil's character arc more interesting would be if the player got to spend a bit more time controlling him as a dark knight. By the time the game begins, Cecil is already doubting his role and feeling remorse for his action, so he's already on the road to redemption. That whole plotline might have had even more impact had the player had some time to get used to Cecil as an unstoppable badass carrying out his king's wishes, before he begins questioning the king's orders. Quite a few games have done that since then, including FF6 (briefly) and pretty much every game in the Suikoden series. If your PCs are going to switch sides partway through the game, it always helps to have a chance to see precisely what they're rebelling against.

I think it would be impossible to effect that sort of change from a vantage of characterization as Cecil is essentially a good person, which would not permit him to commit atrocities for any length of time despite his considerable debt of gratitude to the King of Baron (who took him in as his own child when he was abandoned by Golbez). That said, you definitely see what you're rebelling against as Baron becomes increasingly belligerent and callously lays waste to all obstacles in its attempt to obtain the crystals, even going so far as to consort with and employ monsters.


I do have to issues with the frequent depiction of female characters (particularly love interests) in RPGs as healer/support characters, but I don't want to go into it right now. Luckily, that seems to be less common these days. I did like the twist that FF10 gave to the phenomenon, though. While Yuna was the primary healer in combat, in plot terms she was the one character the party revolved around. Rosa, by contrast, seems to live mostly to follow Cecil around and occasionally get kidnapped. Does her usefulness as a healer make up for her generally cliched characterization? I'm not sure that it does.

I don't think FF4 can be fairly accused of sexism at all. Rosa gets kidnapped once and requires rescuing, but that's about as far as the 'chauvinism' really goes. The vast majority of the women in the game are strong, and resilient individuals (just check out Yang's wife!). Sure, Rosa's tethered to Cecil as a love interest, but it's mutual, and there's nothing inherently wrong or objectionable about that. In the meanwhile Rydia is completely independent and unattached to anyone.

Mechanically Rosa is also a badass, and Rydia is easily and by far my greatest offensive weapon (she's not support. The rest of the party exists to keep her insane nukes coming). Both ladies are indispensable components of my final party, ranking number 1 and 2 respectively in terms of importance.

[Enlong]

Huh. I never made that connection between the story and Cecil's mental stats. That's a cool find.

Which makes me wonder even more about Dissidia. Does anyone know how Cecil justifies using the Dark Knight abilities again in that game?

[Cubey]

Huh. I never made that connection between the story and Cecil's mental stats. That's a cool find.


That's overanalyzing it if you ask me. I don't really think that's what writers have intended. Cecil's mental stats are low at first because he has no use for them - once he becomes a Paladin and can heal, he needs Wisdom to do so effectively. How high are these stats for other non-caster party members? Kain, Cid, Yang? Not very high, I guess. That doesn't mean they're constrained or weak-willed. Well, maybe with Kain having an easily flippable on/off switch on his mind control...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Aw, but the SNES version had some great Woolseyisms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism)!

"You spoony bard" indeed :smallamused:

I'm not sure if it is a "Woolseyism," but I always remember the "Puff-Puff massages" in the Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest games... :smallbiggrin:

Oh, equipping frying pans as weapons... I never saw that outside of Earthbound. Learn something new every day!

[Surrealistik]

That's overanalyzing it if you ask me. I don't really think that's what writers have intended. Cecil's mental stats are low at first because he has no use for them - once he becomes a Paladin and can heal, he needs Wisdom to do so effectively. How high are these stats for other non-caster party members? Kain, Cid, Yang? Not very high, I guess. That doesn't mean they're constrained or weak-willed. Well, maybe with Kain having an easily flippable on/off switch on his mind control...

I don't think it's a stretch at all. Dark weaponry/armor basically became the defacto standard of the Baron army, with everything else being banned by decree of the King (see the locked armour/weapon shop, I'm also pretty sure an NPC says as much) actually Cagnazzo the water fiend. When you consider this, in addition to the fact that even for a pure fighter, Cecil's Spirit (Willpower in the SNES version) rating was abysmal, and more powerful dark knight gear lowered it ever further, it becomes fairly obvious that the idea was to make the Baron army susceptible to Golbez and Zemus' mental domination. Further, it has been insinuated several times (King of Fabul, Mysidian Elder) throughout the game that the gear taints the soul of its user (which is an invitation to said domination, and why Kain and Golbez were subverted). The Deathbringer, the most powerful dark sword as a specific instance, reduced it to exactly 0. Clinching this, Cecil states that he regains a 'warmth' he had lost upon becoming a Dark Knight (DS version) when he ascends to paladinhood. While technically ambiguous, I think it's pretty apparent that this is in reference to his spirit (also reflected in his stats).



Which makes me wonder even more about Dissidia. Does anyone know how Cecil justifies using the Dark Knight abilities again in that game?

He doesn't. I think they're just there due to the rule of cool, because the dichotomy of his two sides was perceived by the developers to make him a more interesting fighter (and if the case, they're right in my opinion!).

[Enlong]

He doesn't. I think they're just there due to the rule of cool, because the dichotomy of his two sides was perceived by the developers to make him a more interesting fighter (and if the case, they're right in my opinion!).

Huh. I could've sworn that someone mentioned him vowing to "use the darkness in the service of the light". I thought maybe there was some longer story there... maybe I'll look for some translation of the story to see if there is.

'cause I don't think the idea is that Darkness as a force is truly evil. Look at Golbez, he's the "dark"est character in the game, and he's not evil, just weak-willed. And I think there's some significance to the fact that you can steal the Darkness augment from King Baron turned Odin. Maybe it really was the equipment that held the danger, not the abilities... I dunno, I'm rambling.

[Surrealistik]

Huh. I could've sworn that someone mentioned him vowing to "use the darkness in the service of the light". I thought maybe there was some longer story there... maybe I'll look for some translation of the story to see if there is.

You could be right as my knowledge of the Dissidia's storyline is admittedly cursory, but I think we both know the *real* reason for the inclusion of the Dark aspect ;).



'cause I don't think the idea is that Darkness as a force is truly evil. Look at
, he's the "dark"est character in the game, and he's not evil, just weak-willed. And I think there's some significance to the fact that you can steal the Darkness augment from King Baron turned Odin. Maybe it really was the equipment that held the danger, not the abilities... I dunno, I'm rambling.

I don't think it's that Golbez was weak-willed, so much as that the combination of his resentment and hatred of Cecil, and his Lunarian blood made him doubly susceptible to Zemus' control. His own personal demons and evil thoughts permitted him to be dominated as with Kain.

That aside, darkness seems to have a hard line association with evil in all of its forms, as the Elder correctly warned Cecil that he could never triumph over a true instance of it as long as he remained an unatoned Dark Knight.Zeromus would have been impossible to defeat had he been so at the time of the final conflict. This is exactly why Golbez couldn't defeat him; he relied on the powers of darkness, and was still tainted by unresolved evil despite regaining mastery of himself. Topping that is the fact that dark weaponry was largely, if not entirely ineffective against monsters of elemental evil and undead.

[Enlong]

Yeah, that's correct. Darkness is quite lined up with evil. Which makes me wonder even more about the storyline reason for Cecil's choice to use it again. (I do love the choice to use it, though, rule of cool justifies anything) Perhaps he decided that he couldn't do everything with light alone, or perhaps he thought that his shunning of the darkness was another form of cowardice... bah, I'm just speculating at this point. Though I would like to single out a line from Cecil's EX Burst
"Under the guidance of the moon, there is neither darkness nor light!"

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, that's correct. Darkness is quite lined up with evil. Which makes me wonder even more about the storyline reason for Cecil's choice to use it again. (I do love the choice to use it, though, rule of cool justifies anything) Perhaps he decided that he couldn't do everything with light alone, or perhaps he thought that his shunning of the darkness was another form of cowardice... bah, I'm just speculating at this point. Though I would like to single out a line from Cecil's EX Burst
"Under the guidance of the moon, there is neither darkness nor light!"

It's a bit of a conundrum to be sure, assuming we try and justify his powers in a way that's not completely reliant on the RoC. Perhaps his perspective is now a utilitarian/Machiavellian, if still ultimately benevolent one, where he's willing to utilize any and all methods available, despite the moral ambiguity or repugnance of some, so long as they ultimately serve the greater good.

[Enlong]

Hmm... I've been watching a subtitled version of Cecil's story in Dissidia, and found an interesting set of lines from him.

"Both darkness and light are my guiding powers, and therefore... I shall pray... to sanctify the dark power!"

He's definitely conflicted, but it seems that he realizes that both darkness and light are within him, so instead of relying on one and avoiding the other, he's going to work to make the power of darkness a force for good.