Druid builds

[Froogleyboy]

are there any good builds for druids?

[Neithan]

Yes. Human Druid with starting Wisdom 15.

Everything else is optional. ;)

[Eldariel]

Well, any race works. I'd prefer Con 14 for HP though. Otherwise you won't be much of a frontliner.

[magic9mushroom]

are there any good builds for druids?

Druid 20 with Natural Spell.

[sonofzeal]

List of feats for a couple focuses. Not all are necessary or even optimal for each focus, but it's a good starting point to tweak from.

Summoner
Spell Focus: Conjuration (requirement)
Augment Summoning (boosts power and durability)
Ashbound (boosts power and doubles duration)
Greenbound Summoning (flipping awesome)
Cloudy Conjuration (extra utility out of every summon spell)
- limited Marshal and/or Bard dip could be fun here, if not strictly recommended
- build idea: Druid 9 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Grappler
Improved Unarmed Strike (or Monk dip)
Improved Grapple (or Monk dip)
Weapon Focus: Grapple
Snatch (lose benefit when smaller than "Huge")
Improved Natural Attack: whichever (lose benefit when your form doesn't have that one)
Extend Spell (long-duration buffs are good for you)
Quicken Spell (improved action economy; mixes well with Enlarge Person while you're a bear, since your type doesn't change)
Martial Study (just about any Tiger Claw maneuver fits well here)
- Barbarian, Monk, and/or ToB make good dips here.
- build idea: Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Druid 18

[Os1ris09]

are there any good builds for druids?

Hehehehehehehehehe you will love this build if you focus on combat and neglect your animal companion.

Human Druid 5/ Warshaper 2/MMoF 7/Nature's Warrior 5

1st: Alertness
Human: Power Attack
3rd: Endurance
5th: Wildshape (YEAH) (Ranger5/Druid5)
6th: Natural Spell (Immune to crits and Stun) (Warshaper1)
7th: +4 STR and CON (YEAH) (Warshaper 2)
9th: Frozen Wild Shape (MMoF2)
12th: Assume Supernatural Ability (need to know what book its in though)
(MMoF5)
15th: Combat Reflex's (Nature's Warrior 1)
18th: Robilars Gambit (Nature's Warrior 4)

Excellent build to take advantage of two things.
1: TWELVE HEADED CRYOHYDRA (YEAH FOR 12 ATTACKS IN 1 AoP)
2: Can take any fighter on except for higher level fighters (aka 20+ pure fighters/ToB class's)

This build is melee focused and makes you a tank. HOWEVER you don't get a good animal companion and you dont get 4+ lvl spells. :smallfrown:
Other than that you get into the peoples faces and deal 12 attacks worth of damage from only one attack. You get to keep all of your attacks and your STR/DEX/CON changes to match new form. If all else fails you can take form of another creature and use its abilities to your advantage.

[mostlyharmful]

Dwarf is also a workable race.

Really Druid is the shining example of broken-out-of-the-box. Most tier 1 classes need a bit of skill but Druid is just 'Take Natural spell and don't commit suicide' which most can get behind.

[Eldariel]

Hehehehehehehehehe you will love this build if you focus on combat and neglect your animal companion.

Human Druid 5/ Warshaper 2/MMoF 7/Nature's Warrior 5

1st: Alertness
Human: Power Attack
3rd: Endurance
5th: Wildshape (YEAH) (Ranger5/Druid5)
6th: Natural Spell (Immune to crits and Stun) (Warshaper1)
7th: +4 STR and CON (YEAH) (Warshaper 2)
9th: Frozen Wild Shape (MMoF2)
12th: Assume Supernatural Ability (need to know what book its in though)
(MMoF5)
15th: Combat Reflex's (Nature's Warrior 1)
18th: Robilars Gambit (Nature's Warrior 4)

Excellent build to take advantage of two things.
1: TWELVE HEADED CRYOHYDRA (YEAH FOR 12 ATTACKS IN 1 AoP)
2: Can take any fighter on except for higher level fighters (aka 20+ pure fighters/ToB class's)

This build is melee focused and makes you a tank. HOWEVER you don't get a good animal companion and you dont get 4+ lvl spells. :smallfrown:
Other than that you get into the peoples faces and deal 12 attacks worth of damage from only one attack. You get to keep all of your attacks and your STR/DEX/CON changes to match new form. If all else fails you can take form of another creature and use its abilities to your advantage.

Same build works better as Druid 20: You get buff-spells of insane quality (and you can buff your animal companion to high heavens) and you get tons of summons and some of the most devastating spells in D&D (Control Winds FTW?).

[Os1ris09]

Same build works better as Druid 20: You get buff-spells of insane quality (and you can buff your animal companion to high heavens) and you get tons of summons and some of the most devastating spells in D&D (Control Winds FTW?).

But you dont get the extraordinary qualities like fast healing, etc. Granted you get better (and more awesome) spells and another tank. You also dont get the +4 to con/str. Other than those yea lvl 20 Druid is superior to the build i posted. But the difference is my build is designed to be a frontline tank. Elderials build is similar but not as focused because of the lack of extraordinary abilities and the extra str/con

[olentu]

But you dont get the extraordinary qualities like fast healing, etc. Granted you get better (and more awesome) spells and another tank. You also dont get the +4 to con/str. Other than those yea lvl 20 Druid is superior to the build i posted. But the difference is my build is designed to be a frontline tank. Elderials build is similar but not as focused because of the lack of extraordinary abilities and the extra str/con

I think there is a fourth level spell in the spell compendium that gives extraordinary special qualities, enhance wildshape or something like that. It also does some other stuff.

[Eldariel]

But you dont get the extraordinary qualities like fast healing, etc. Granted you get better (and more awesome) spells and another tank. You also dont get the +4 to con/str. Other than those yea lvl 20 Druid is superior to the build i posted. But the difference is my build is designed to be a frontline tank. Elderials build is similar but not as focused because of the lack of extraordinary abilities and the extra str/con

You can replicate all that with spells though; basically, Druid 20 can opt to be just good a tank while also being a full caster and having animal companion. Even just AC with Nature's Avatar + Animal Growth cast on it is going to wreck the house. Or any given Elemental Monolith. Or you Shapechanged into...anything - be a Pit Fiend for example (granted, that spell is busted in half).

Wildshape still holds up decently if you spend enough resources putting buffs on yourself (for example, you get much higher level Greater Magic Fangs than a multiclassed build thus giving you straight higher attack & damage bonuses).


It really boils down to "Master of Many Forms is decent, but Druid is broken".

[Bayar]

Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 10 / Druid 5.

Druid 20 is inherently broken, but Druid 10/ PS 10 is broken in a whole new way.

If your DM allows this, make him regret it. Although, you probably end up with a knee-crotch at the end of the day.

[Zergrusheddie]

Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 10 / Druid 5.

Druid 20 is inherently broken, but Druid 10/ PS 10 is broken in a whole new way.

If your DM allows this, make him regret it. Although, you probably end up with a knee-crotch at the end of the day.

Aye, PS is damn powerful. However, it is possible not to break it. Do not take a realm that has different time variation and do not abuse the Efreeti Wish thing. But other than that, the class is still ridiculous...

I would vote against going any PrC aside from PS. Master of Many Forms is great because you can turn into something like a War Troll at ECL 8 and go crazy, however you will miss those extra spells and your Animal Companion is a perfect target for the absolutely insane Animal only buffs.

[sonofzeal]

Dwarf is also a workable race.

Really Druid is the shining example of broken-out-of-the-box. Most tier 1 classes need a bit of skill but Druid is just 'Take Natural spell and don't commit suicide' which most can get behind.

Only sort-of true. I mean, they always do fine, but one of the "suggested" race choices is Elf. Seriously. In addition, at least in Core, almost all Wildshape forms have pathetic AC and there aren't many ways to improve it (a situation which changed with Wildling Clasps, but those aren't common knowledge in my gaming circles). And the Wildshape forms with the best attacks (mostly dinosaurs) are generally restricted by most DMs I know, citing the "must be familiar" clause, leaving a rather lackluster set of terrestrial animals to choose from. A further complication is that most Druids don't qualify for the combat feats that would make their Wild Shape forms effective. Taken together, this means that core-only druids are in a similar position as the Monk when it comes to physical combat. Granted they've got that in addition to decent spellcasting, but seriously - it does take good knowledge and effort to make an effective Wildshaping Druid when you can't just grab Fleshrakers with Wildling Clasps all over the place. Either way, wildshape is not broken "out of the box". It's useful, yes, but it'll get you killed fast unless you know what you're doing.

Animal Companions are a slightly different story. They're terribly unbalanced at 1st level, and even a suboptimal choice will just about double your combat potential, and an optimal choice can basically replace the party fighter. However, they do scale poorly, and by the time you get Wildshape they should be lagging. I've seen higher level Druids who reliably couldn't keep their animal companion alive through a single round of combat, and ended up not sending them in at all. By level 10, it starts taking good knowledge and effort to keep the Animal Companion effective, with good form and feat choices, and investing a decent portion of your income into gearing it up (an often-neglected strategy, as most newbs use their AC just as-written). They're useful, yes, but they gradually become obsolete unless you know what you're doing.

The one thing you can't really screw up is spellcasting... but honestly, as far as pure-spellcasters go, they're rather mediocre (except for the summoning, which is viable at all levels). Look at the Core 7th level Druid spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#seventhLevelDruidSpells) - all the good ones (except possibly Fire Storm) are available to the Cleric at equal or lower levels, and I think we can all agree that even the Cleric list loses out to the Sor/Wiz one for sheer power. The spell list has a fair degree of utility, of buffing, of healing, of damaging... but is not going to win any awards for any of those categories (until they get Shapechange).

Now, the Druid is a strong class. Even if you've messed up Wildshape and Animal Companion for combat purposes, both are still strong "utility" class features, and your spell list builds on that admirably. Any non-suicidal Druid can be a good "utility caster" and generally carry his weight. But they are very definitively not "broken-out-of-the-box", unless you consider Fleshrakers, Wildling Clasps, and Bite of the WereX to be "out of the box".

(disclaimer: this analysis is culled from many in-game observations of newbies playing Druids, and my own memories of Akbar the Halfling Druid, my first multi-session character who died to arrows while charging Yuan-Ti while in leopard form - thank you, AC 15. I've since played much more effective Druids, but it did take time and effort. And massive headaches from sorting through Wildshape->Polymorph->AlterForm tortured logic.)

[sonofzeal]

I would vote against going any PrC aside from PS. Master of Many Forms is great because you can turn into something like a War Troll at ECL 8 and go crazy, however you will miss those extra spells and your Animal Companion is a perfect target for the absolutely insane Animal only buffs.
Rogue1 / Druid 5 / Daggerspell Shaper 10 / Druid +4. Lose two spellcasting levels and most of your Animal Companion progression, but gain a healthy load of badassitude. And Badassitude Quotient just about doubles if Daggerspell Flurry works with Dagger Claws.

Druid 9 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Lost one spellcasting level and Wildshape progression (but you have Polar Bear form so no big loss) for solid Bardic Music (great for massive armies of summons), eleven levels of Bard spellcasting, and "unbound" is always nice for Mithral Breastplate with Wildling Clasps..

[Os1ris09]

You can replicate all that with spells though; basically, Druid 20 can opt to be just good a tank while also being a full caster and having animal companion. Even just AC with Nature's Avatar + Animal Growth cast on it is going to wreck the house. Or any given Elemental Monolith. Or you Shapechanged into...anything - be a Pit Fiend for example (granted, that spell is busted in half).

Wildshape still holds up decently if you spend enough resources putting buffs on yourself (for example, you get much higher level Greater Magic Fangs than a multiclassed build thus giving you straight higher attack & damage bonuses).


It really boils down to "Master of Many Forms is decent, but Druid is broken".

I thought i just said your build is superior:smallfrown:. But I do see where you're coming from I would much rather have the ability to do insane amounts of damage with small buff spells than have casting abilities. Especially if you already have a party cleric and wizard/sorcerer.
Another reason I would take my build to is incase you do not have a frontline fighter you can just focus on that yourself and save yourself some resources trying to get your animal companion to do the fighting for you. I guarantee that a PC cryohydra will out perform an animal companion of the same lvl (ex a 12lvl PC cryohydra will out perform a 12lvl Druid's animal companion)

[Froogleyboy]

This is a bit off topic but I dont wana start a new thread. Could someone post a picture of an Anthropomorphic baleen whale? =)

[Eldariel]

Well, just Druid 12 with Frozen Wildshape Cryohydras it up just fine; all you're missing is that Improved Combat Reflexes, which admittedly is tasty (but apparently available through that Enhanced Wildshape-spell).

EDIT: I'm not sure "official" pictures exist. That said, "whaleman" should be quite the easy archetype to find in some cartoon archives.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Animal Companions are a slightly different story. They're terribly unbalanced at 1st level, and even a suboptimal choice will just about double your combat potential, and an optimal choice can basically replace the party fighter. However, they do scale poorly, and by the time you get Wildshape they should be lagging. I've seen higher level Druids who reliably couldn't keep their animal companion alive through a single round of combat, and ended up not sending them in at all. By level 10, it starts taking good knowledge and effort to keep the Animal Companion effective, with good form and feat choices, and investing a decent portion of your income into gearing it up (an often-neglected strategy, as most newbs use their AC just as-written). They're useful, yes, but they gradually become obsolete unless you know what you're doing.So Animal Companions are broken the first 5 levels and good for the first 10. Keep those points in the progression in mind when thinking about how spellcasting is balanced:Level 1-5 you're weak, levels 5-10 you're balanced, levels 10-20 you're a God.
The one thing you can't really screw up is spellcasting... but honestly, as far as pure-spellcasters go, they're rather mediocre (except for the summoning, which is viable at all levels). Look at the Core 7th level Druid spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#seventhLevelDruidSpells) - all the good ones (except possibly Fire Storm) are available to the Cleric at equal or lower levels, and I think we can all agree that even the Cleric list loses out to the Sor/Wiz one for sheer power. The spell list has a fair degree of utility, of buffing, of healing, of damaging... but is not going to win any awards for any of those categories (until they get Shapechange).Yes, the Druid list is weaker, but it is still a full-caster list with real gems hidden on it. Ignoring the best non-core stuff Like Bite of the WereX and Venomfire, you still get Control Weather, Spellstaff, the SNA line, and of course Shapechange. It's not the greatest casting, I admit, but like any caster, if you can live through the first 5 levels, you'll be a God when you hit 11.

[Keld Denar]

Druid 9 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10.

Mostly illegal build. No evasion unless you get it from a ring. Then you need to put a wilding clasp on your ring or you'll lose most of your class abilities when you WS into something as the ring will meld and become non-functioning.

[sonofzeal]

Mostly illegal build. No evasion unless you get it from a ring. Then you need to put a wilding clasp on your ring or you'll lose most of your class abilities when you WS into something as the ring will meld and become non-functioning.
Ah, my mistake; I scanned that line, saw "Bardic Knowledge", and moved on. Shall we say.... Druid 8 / Monk 2 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9? Can still turn into a Polar Bear, can now Flurry-of-Claws (and get wis-to-AC for a much needed boost), and your saving throws will love you. You lose more spellcasting this way... but it should still be a highly playable build at all levels, and quite reasonable power-wise.

[Leon]

What do you want from your druid?

[Froogleyboy]

What do you want from your druid?

I'm not sure. I've never played one before. I'm ignoring all of the lvl. 20 builds. I'm thinking about multiclassing to blighter.

[Inhuman Bot]

A little off topic, but where are Planar shephards in? Bookwise, that is.

Also, as has been said, what do you want to do with your druid?

All around is really just pure druid with natural spell and decent wisdom.

[mikej]

A little off topic, but where are Planar shephards in? Bookwise, that is.

Faiths of Eberron, page 105

[Os1ris09]

I'm not sure. I've never played one before. I'm ignoring all of the lvl. 20 builds. I'm thinking about multiclassing to blighter.

I dont mean to be assanine when i state this. why didnt you list any restriction's in your original post. You could have saved us and yourself alot of time by putting exactly what you wanted for response's

[Froogleyboy]

well I just asked the DM and he said the campaign isnt going to 20th

[sonofzeal]

well I just asked the DM and he said the campaign isnt going to 20th
So? Most of these builds work just fine below 20th level. I wouldn't recommend the Fochlucan Lyrist in that context, but the Daggerspell Shaper is fun and easy to play, the Planar Sheppard becomes ridiculously powerful pretty fast (or is solidly effective at all levels if you're not trying to break it), Druid->Warshaper->MomF progresses quickly and is viable at all levels too.

We list the lvl20 versions because, well, that's convention. Even if the campaign doesn't go to lvl20, it's good to have an idea of how your character plans to progress in the future; otherwise you end up in dead ends and stalled progress. A good lvl20 build works at all the levels in between, even if there's something particularly magical at some specific level in there.

[Os1ris09]

well I just asked the DM and he said the campaign isnt going to 20th

Well if you're going to 12 lvl I would recommend straight druid w/ wilded dragonhide breastplate (if not full plate I'll post the build)

Non-Human feat progression
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Combat Reflex's
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Frozen Wildshape
12th: Assume supernatural abilities

Human Feat Progression
1st: Power Attack
Human: Combat Reflex's
3rd: improved Combat Reflex's
6th: natural Spell
9th: Frozen Wildshape
12th: Assume supernatural abilities

this is the same build as before just limited to what a melee druid would be but with better spells (6th at this point) and another semi tank (animal companion)

[nightwyrm]

I'm ignoring all of the lvl. 20 builds. I'm thinking about multiclassing to blighter.

DO NOT DO THAT!!!
That is possibly one of the very few ways to mess up a druid build.
Even if you don't go up to lv 20, just play a druid straight thru and you'll be more than fine.

[Animefunkmaster]

DO NOT DO THAT!!!
That is possibly one of the very few ways to mess up a druid build.
Even if you don't go up to lv 20, just play a druid straight thru and you'll be more than fine.

I'll second straight druid is superior to most of the druid builds out there (there really isn't any good dips for the druid to take over druid). Planar shepherd is the only exception.

Planarshepherd is broken for a variety of reasons. First, what are you giving up? Spellcasting -nope. BAB, Skills, HD -nope. Animal Companion -nope. Wildshape -not really (you do lose access to a few forms). Second, what are you gaining? Plane Shift, Planar bubble (even without a plane that has time factors, it is a free spell like ability), dr 10/magic, +1 cl when in manifest zones. Here is the big one, supercharged wildshaping, into magical beasts/elementals/OUTSIDERS. Third, and the kicker:


you gain all the elemental or outsider’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

This is probably the only thing better than straight druid.

[sonofzeal]

I'll second straight druid is superior to most of the druid builds out there (there really isn't any good dips for the druid to take over druid). Planar shepherd is the only exception.
I'd say that VoP Saint Monk1/Druid17 gives Druid20 a run for its money. A well-equipped character generally gains far more than VoP gives, but +8 enhancement bonus to Wis with Wis*2 to AC from Monk/Saint, followed by +15 to AC from VoP, on top of anything you'd already have... all your Wildshape natural attacks counting as +5 weapons on top of a flurry routine... Mind Shielding, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, and Regeneration on top of all the special defenses Saint gives with the massive saves even 1 level of Monk gives... and all this while still getting every Druid class feature that matters, including 9th level spells... yeah, I have a hard time seeing that as a bad trade.

And on a slightly less "omgwtfhax" note, I still like Rogue1/Druid5/DaggerspellShaper10/Druid+4 depending on the setting; it'll generally do better than straight Druid in dungeons or cities where large size is a liability, skillpoints are important, and there's plenty of opportunities to Sneak Attack. Also, depending on your interpretation, Daggerspell Flurry + Dagger Claws = free "Quicken Spell" when making an attack, Dex-mod times per day. Which is pretty Win. It's not "inarguably superior to a straight Druid in every context" good, but it's well in the "totally reasonable alternative that could work out really well for you" territory.

[Leon]

are there any good builds for druids?

Yes, like all classes there plenty of good builds.
My previous question was so i could get a feel on what you were after, now i know your after a Blighter type.

For it as much as i dislike the cookie cutter druid type its probably the best way to go. Druid 6 your choice of feats to suit and then let the world burn



As what i'd Suggest otherwise is the Variants from the SRD - the Druidic Avenger and the Hunter
Gives up what i consider to be excess junk and gains a different set of abilities, the PrC Fist of the Forest ties in well with these variants (its in Complete Champion)

This combination will give you your WIS, DEX and CON as Armour, Fast Movement, Favored enemies, tracking, rage, feral trance, improved unarmed attacks (inc a Ghost touch like one)

You lose Spontaneous Casting, Animal companion and wild shape
A Companion and the Spontaneous casting can be brought back to a Degree with select feats if your that keen on still having them
(Wild Cohort & Spontaneous Summoner Feats)

That or play a Shapeshift Druid from PHB2 - Fixed forms, unlimited times per day of use, quick to change, no AC (but once again if you really want it use the Wild Cohort)

[dspeyer]

While simple druid 20 is a powerful build, there are things that can beat it. From a build-to-20 perspective, levels 18-20 are disappointing (more spells per day, huge elementals and more hd for ws forms -- nothing special). This gives us three levels for dips. What's worth dipping?

Monk or Ninja.
Both give wis to ac, which you desperately want since it functions while wildshaped. Monk also gives you flurry, which might combine well with multiple natural weapons, but good luck making sense of RAW (I can't). On the downside, monk forces you to be LN, which might not mesh with everything else. Ninja gives you sudden strike (it's not much, but it stacks) and some skills.

Swordsage
Might give wis to ac at second level. Ask your DM about the "light armor" clause. Also gives lots of maneuvers. These get more powerful the later you take the class (but watch out for prerequisites). Also gives good skills.

Barbarian
Unlike most boosts, rage works in wildshape. The frenzy variant should be particularly nice. Consider the Extra Rage feat.

Fist of the Forest
This is a prestige class that requires three feats, two of which are useless (though one of those comes free with a level in monk). The important thing it grants is con to ac. This should stack with any wis to ac you get, and AFAICT, uses the con of the form you've wildshaped into.

Master of Many Forms
This prestige class was pretty much built for druids. One level in it gives you speech while wildshaped, which is a big help if you want to spend all your time as an animal. It also gives you humanoid shapes, which are pretty much the perfect disguise. Two levels gives you giant forms, which are handy for melee, especially if you like using weapons (just make sure you carry some large and huge sets of clothing, and set them on the ground before shaping -- everything on you merges). Three levels allows you to change forms as a swift action. Seven levels seriously cuts into your druid powers, but allows you to take on extraordinary abilities, such as a will'o'wisp's invisibility and immunity to magic.

[Os1ris09]

While simple druid 20 is a powerful build, there are things that can beat it. From a build-to-20 perspective, levels 18-20 are disappointing (more spells per day, huge elementals and more hd for ws forms -- nothing special). This gives us three levels for dips. What's worth dipping?

Monk or Ninja.
Both give wis to ac, which you desperately want since it functions while wildshaped. Monk also gives you flurry, which might combine well with multiple natural weapons, but good luck making sense of RAW (I can't). On the downside, monk forces you to be LN, which might not mesh with everything else. Ninja gives you sudden strike (it's not much, but it stacks) and some skills.

Swordsage
Might give wis to ac at second level. Ask your DM about the "light armor" clause. Also gives lots of maneuvers. These get more powerful the later you take the class (but watch out for prerequisites). Also gives good skills.

Barbarian
Unlike most boosts, rage works in wildshape. The frenzy variant should be particularly nice. Consider the Extra Rage feat.

Fist of the Forest
This is a prestige class that requires three feats, two of which are useless (though one of those comes free with a level in monk). The important thing it grants is con to ac. This should stack with any wis to ac you get, and AFAICT, uses the con of the form you've wildshaped into.

Master of Many Forms
This prestige class was pretty much built for druids. One level in it gives you speech while wildshaped, which is a big help if you want to spend all your time as an animal. It also gives you humanoid shapes, which are pretty much the perfect disguise. Two levels gives you giant forms, which are handy for melee, especially if you like using weapons (just make sure you carry some large and huge sets of clothing, and set them on the ground before shaping -- everything on you merges). Three levels allows you to change forms as a swift action. Seven levels seriously cuts into your druid powers, but allows you to take on extraordinary abilities, such as a will'o'wisp's invisibility and immunity to magic.

I dont know about that. A lvl 7 MMoF/13 druid would be godly with the right feats and equipmen. As long as you have another person who can cast spells and cover your lack thereof the party should be fine.

[wadledo]

I dont know about that. A lvl 7 MMoF/13 druid would be godly with the right feats and equipmen. As long as you have another person who can cast spells and cover your lack thereof the party should be fine.

Yes, but any spellcasting is better than 7 levels of moderately powerful melee abilities.

4 is considered the optimizers minimum, and even then, that's only in extreme cases.

[Eldariel]

I dunno, Druid 19 and Druid 20 give you more level 9 spells. I don't see how some trivial crap you can get as equipment could make up for that.

[mostlyharmful]

Only sort-of true. I mean, they always do fine, but one of the "suggested" race choices is Elf. Seriously. In addition, at least in Core, almost all Wildshape forms have pathetic AC and there aren't many ways to improve it (a situation which changed with Wildling Clasps, but those aren't common knowledge in my gaming circles).

Monks belt and ring of Blink, amulet of Wis and Cloak of Displacement, so long as your new form has didgits, a neck and a waist your team mates can slap them back onto you just fine. You may not be able to sneak so easily but for a combat form you don't need to. Leopard, Bear and Fleshraker are all able to use them fine so long as you can persuade your DM to let magic items work in the way they're writen. Or you could get Wilded Full DragonPlate. Also never forget your Barkskin and the rod of extend, cheap and easy.


And the Wildshape forms with the best attacks (mostly dinosaurs) are generally restricted by most DMs I know, citing the "must be familiar" clause, leaving a rather lackluster set of terrestrial animals to choose from. A further complication is that most Druids don't qualify for the combat feats that would make their Wild Shape forms effective. Taken together, this means that core-only druids are in a similar position as the Monk when it comes to physical combat.

Leopard and Bear do alright with AC boosters, not as uber as spatified druid certainly but workable, "must be familiar" is pretty much equivalent to "needs to be in a druid circle and have some down time" for me, if it exists then Druids will know about it and have tried it, the best of them will be handed down in organizations and when a Druid gets to a certain level they should get to hear about it so long as they don't live as complete hermits.

Druids qualify for power attack once they get wildshape (or before with a good roll set) and improved grapple does take a wasted feat but you don't have to specialize in melee yourself, you've got minions for that... alll the minions in the world....



Granted they've got that in addition to decent spellcasting, but seriously - it does take good knowledge and effort to make an effective Wildshaping Druid when you can't just grab Fleshrakers with Wildling Clasps all over the place. Either way, wildshape is not broken "out of the box". It's useful, yes, but it'll get you killed fast unless you know what you're doing.

Very strong class feature is how I'd put it. One of a Druid's three major features, any two would make a strong character, a druid gets three and some random beenies... and the Druid's got some of the best casting around, Summons and BC is where they shine.

SNA is stronger than the Summon monster line and adds a considerable versatility through the SLAs of what you summon. You also get a better versatility from the cleric since your spont line is always useful and includes healing, theirs is rapidly replaced with items since using Cleric slots for cure spells is strictly a downtime strategy.

Battlefield control spells are something a druid rocks at, Entangle to start with and leading in to Plant Growth and Spike Growth and then Wall of Thorns. On a related note never, ever, under any circumstances allow Control Winds in your game, ban it faster than Polymorph. Utter Plot wreckage will follow any druid allowed to use that one, it should be renamed Flatten Cities or maybe just Smite Carefully Created Plot.:smallyuk:


Animal Companions are a slightly different story. They're terribly unbalanced at 1st level, and even a suboptimal choice will just about double your combat potential, and an optimal choice can basically replace the party fighter.

As has been mentioned, ACs are great at low level when it's needed and alright when you're still playing the game at mid levels but once you reach high level and you're a full caster and a melee power house yourself it's just one more purely expendable minion. Ok, so it goes from rocks hard to vaguely useful, cool. Also the best choices (wolf/riding dog) are also the most obvious so most new players will take them.




The one thing you can't really screw up is spellcasting... but honestly, as far as pure-spellcasters go, they're rather mediocre (except for the summoning, which is viable at all levels). Look at the Core 7th level Druid spells - all the good ones (except possibly Fire Storm) are available to the Cleric at equal or lower levels, and I think we can all agree that even the Cleric list loses out to the Sor/Wiz one for sheer power. The spell list has a fair degree of utility, of buffing, of healing, of damaging... but is not going to win any awards for any of those categories (until they get Shapechange).

See above, Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Spellstaff, Antilife Shell, etc...... It isn't Wiz/Sorc but it is fun and can be powerful if you choose the right ones.

The Druids summons chimes perfectly with its buff list, it's animal companion and any animals you happen to meet int he adventure that the druid can charm, dominate or train... you can have almost as good an army of critters as the necro dude and then buff them.


Now, the Druid is a strong class. Even if you've messed up Wildshape and Animal Companion for combat purposes, both are still strong "utility" class features, and your spell list builds on that admirably. Any non-suicidal Druid can be a good "utility caster" and generally carry his weight. But they are very definitively not "broken-out-of-the-box", unless you consider Fleshrakers, Wildling Clasps, and Bite of the WereX to be "out of the box".

Druids are the easiest of the tier 1 powerhouses to build, they're full casters with two dropable stats and a free meatshield. They can sneak, melee, range attack, Battlefield Control, grab enough minions to steamroll virtually anything CRed to you...... synergy of class features, buffing and summoning minions, controlling the battlefield to funnel the enemy into them and direct damaging the survivors.


(disclaimer: this analysis is culled from many in-game observations of newbies playing Druids, and my own memories of Akbar the Halfling Druid, my first multi-session character who died to arrows while charging Yuan-Ti while in leopard form - thank you, AC 15. I've since played much more effective Druids, but it did take time and effort. And massive headaches from sorting through Wildshape->Polymorph->AlterForm tortured logic.)

Yes. If you charge an army on your own with no buffs on you are going to die. Druids are strong. they aren't unkillable.

[Os1ris09]

I dunno, Druid 19 and Druid 20 give you more level 9 spells. I don't see how some trivial crap you can get as equipment could make up for that.

While Lvl 7+ spells are really good they do not compare to the raw power of a wizards or sorcerer's spells. Plus if you have a cleric that didnt lose and CL your party is fine. My old group consisted of a Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, and me the druid. I took that build in and play tested it and well lets just say I really pissed of the DM with my ability to lock down the battle area, give the fighter a flanker, and the rogue at the same time, plus stop anything he was doing.:smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Cleric can't cast CL 20 Greater Magic Fangs though :( That spell is so awesome for shapeshifter it's not even funny. Free +5 natural weapons all day? Sounds good to me! Same with Barkskin and in general, Druid buffs; Druid is the only class truly good at buffing animals and natural weapons, so Cleric can't really cover it. Also, Druid spellcasting is probably the most devastating; not the most powerful, sure, but if you need to wipe out an army or destroy a city, it's easiest to just ask the Druid.

Also, Druid has the most spells that really benefit of high caster level. Just as an example, "Giant Vermin" can give you 3 Colossal Scorpions which matches statwise up to a CR 20 creature just fine (loses out on everything else, obviously, but you got 3 of them for a single level 4 spell). Thanks to your control spell arsenal, it's easy enough to keep the opponent groundbound (if dimensional travel is disabled, at any rate).


Sure, that thing can rip things up; I'm just pointing out that a Druid 20 does it better ;)

[mostlyharmful]

While Lvl 7+ spells are really good they do not compare to the raw power of a wizards or sorcerer's spells.

What? Shapechange and Foresight? Ok, the next one down's Elemental Swarm but that one's still solid. And that's just in core.

[Os1ris09]

Cleric can't cast CL 20 Greater Magic Fangs though :( That spell is so awesome for shapeshifter it's not even funny. Free +5 natural weapons all day? Sounds good to me! Same with Barkskin and in general, Druid buffs; Druid is the only class truly good at buffing animals and natural weapons, so Cleric can't really cover it. Also, Druid spellcasting is probably the most devastating; not the most powerful, sure, but if you need to wipe out an army or destroy a city, it's easiest to just ask the Druid.

Also, Druid has the most spells that really benefit of high caster level. Just as an example, "Giant Vermin" can give you 3 Colossal Scorpions which matches statwise up to a CR 20 creature just fine (loses out on everything else, obviously, but you got 3 of them for a single level 4 spell). Thanks to your control spell arsenal, it's easy enough to keep the opponent groundbound (if dimensional travel is disabled, at any rate).


Sure, that thing can rip things up; I'm just pointing out that a Druid 20 does it better ;)

Well I was just listing my favorite build. While I agree that lvl 9 spells is awesome I personally love getting into the guy/girls face who made me angry and stick it to him/her. :smallwink: