What that magic circle thingy really is

[GSFB]

Is anyone else thinking along these lines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)?

[Silverraptor]

So...what? Your saying it's a giant Doiley?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

nope. Its actually a triangle...not a doiley

[Lupy]

Yes. The source of hir ultimate arcane power is a doily.

However, it is a doily formed by all the planes, and viewed from above, which grants this power. :smallbiggrin:

The pentagram thingy is just there because they are associated with evil.

[ErrantMage]

Pentagram is also protection.

Though that was in reference really to the historical and canon sources of magical power.

[Froogleyboy]

The pentagram thingy is just there because they are associated with evil.
I, um, hate to brake it to you but pentagrams are NOT evil

[Tijne]

I thought pentagrams where a circle surrounding a star?
I'm not sure at all what a circle surrounding a triangle is...

[Optimystik]

I, um, hate to brake it to you but pentagrams are NOT evil

They are associated with evil in the media however, which is what he said.

For example, Magic: The Gathering 4th edition had to remove the pentagram from Unholy Strength (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=2133) at about the same time D&D was suffering backlash from religious conservatives.

[Zanaril]

We've seen the triangle-inside-a-circle thing before in a summoning spell, page 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), last panel.

[Optimystik]

I thought pentagrams where a circle surrounding a star?
I'm not sure at all what a circle surrounding a triangle is...

I guess it's safe to say there are no Geometers in OotS :smallsmile:

[JoseB]

I guess it's safe to say there are no Geometers in OotS :smallsmile:

Actually, as others have mentioned in other threads, in classic goetia (or demon summoning), the caster would draw a circle wherein he or she would stand, and draw a triangle away from the circle wherein the creature (well, usually a devil) being called would appear.

Of course, if you draw the triangle inside the circle where you summon... Interesting times would take place (which is exactly what has happened to Vaarsuvius, actually...)

And in comic 532, Lirian, the person being summoned, appears (correctly) within the triangle (although Dorukan should be inside his own circle, but that's nitpicking).

Here is an authentic illustration of a purported summoning sigil. The caster stands inside the big circle, and the summoned creature is supposed to appear inside the triangle on top. Here it is. (http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/02d/871/02d871c8-5af0-45b4-88b4-f501cf3effa4) There are a few pentagrams, but they are accesory to the main summoning symbol.

Illustration of how the thing was supposed to look like: here. (http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/Z/y/2/glossarymagick.jpg)

Observe that the "triangle sigil" is different in the first illustration and in the second (the first has a triangle with a circle inside, in the second you can glimpse, under the "imp" being summoned, a circle with a triangle inside).

(interesting fact: the pentagram was the symbol used by the followers of Pythagoras as a mark of belonging to his group).

Just my 2 eurocent!

[hamishspence]

BoVD- Demonologist prestige class- pic shows a fiend manifesting inside a circle with a triangle inside the circle.

Fiendish Codex 1: Magic: Pic shows Mialee summoning a nalfeshnee- she is inside a diagram- circle & triangle.

Dragon 336: Spells of the Demonomicon- shows an imprisoned babau demon- inside the triangle+circle diagram with Iggwilv standing outside it.

So, in D&D, from 3.0 onward- the diagram appears to be used either to keep fiends in, or possibly out, but in all cases, either the fiend or the wizard is inside the diagram- not two separate ones, but a single circle+triangle.

[sidhe3141]

Actually, as others have mentioned in other threads, in classic goetia (or demon summoning), the caster would draw a circle wherein he or she would stand, and draw a triangle away from the circle wherein the creature (well, usually a devil) being called would appear.

Of course, if you draw the triangle inside the circle where you summon... Interesting times would take place (which is exactly what has happened to Vaarsuvius, actually...)

And in comic 532, Lirian, the person being summoned, appears (correctly) within the triangle (although Dorukan should be inside his own circle, but that's nitpicking).

Well, the whole reason that the circle was used was to protect the caster from whatever was being summoned (although, alternately I suppose a circle could be used to contain the summoned entity). The spirits being joined to V are being summoned into xir body/mind/soul, so standing inside the triangle is correct.
And in Lirian's case, Dorukan doesn't need to protect himself from her, so he doesn't need a circle.

[Corwin Weber]

It's called a Thaumaturgic Triangle and is used in real world mysticism. If I remember right it's considered to be a general protective sigil and forms a barrier that otherworldly beings can't cross. (If you summon such a being inside that symbol, they're stuck there unless you let them out.)

A pentegram with one point up is a symbol of protection and was supposedly used to summon demons because it formed a barrier that they couldn't cross. (Like the triangle.) With two points up it becomes an inverted pentegram and has a reversed meaning. (IE, it is an evil symbol, and in some traditions symbolizes the Great Beast or some other demonic figure rending the heavens with its horns.)

[Ladorak]

So are you people saying Rich is an Alchemist?

Or maybe he just drew something based on how these things always look when people draw them?

Or maybe it's three points for three fiends, or three souls.

I fear you may be reading too much into this...

[Corwin Weber]

So are you people saying Rich is an Alchemist?

Or maybe he just drew something based on how these things always look when people draw them?

Or maybe it's three points for three fiends, or three souls.

I fear you may be reading too much into this...

Using a real world symbol in situations like this isn't at all uncommon. It carries social symbolism. People recognize it as 'magical' even if they don't know what it is. Look at all of the pentegrams in Doom, for example.

[Mr. Pin]

It is clearly a doily. It's not as if Rich Burlew would put two different mystic symbols within 600 strips of each other. seems foolproof, yes? after all, they BOTH lead to ultimate arcane power...

BUT! If you pay close attention, Vaarsuvius remarks that doilies are the gateway to ultimate cosmic power. obviously, that path will lead to V riding a surfboard along the cosmic winds and developing silvery skin, not growing long hair and Multiple personalities.

My guess is that when she sits down to tea with Xykon, some interestingly lacy cloth article will bring her the second part of the supreme power that is her birthright. And she'll serve as a herald to Galactus thereafter, in order to stop him from eating her family.

[Mando Knight]

BUT! If you pay close attention, Vaarsuvius remarks that doilies are the gateway to ultimate cosmic power. obviously, that path will lead to V riding a surfboard along the cosmic winds and developing silvery skin, not growing long hair and Multiple personalities.

What are you talking about? Ultimate Cosmic Power comes with itty bitty living space. Didn't Disney's Aladdin teach you anything? :smalltongue:

[DoctorJest]

I thought pentagrams where a circle surrounding a star?
I'm not sure at all what a circle surrounding a triangle is...

It's called a Thaumaturgic Triangle.
And no, I'm not making that up.

EDIT: Scooped!

[DoctorJest]

A pentegram with one point up is a symbol of protection and was supposedly used to summon demons because it formed a barrier that they couldn't cross. (Like the triangle.) With two points up it becomes an inverted pentegram and has a reversed meaning. (IE, it is an evil symbol, and in some traditions symbolizes the Great Beast or some other demonic figure rending the heavens with its horns.)

Not to nit pick, but the whole "point up" vs "point down" pentacle debate is really a modern invention. Traditionally, a pentacle is a pentacle is a pentacle. A pentacle drawn on the ground as a binding circle has no "up" point. it's orientation depends on how you're standing to look at it. A demon bound in a pentacle wouldn't suddenly escape because the summoner shifted 30 degrees to the right after all!

The pentacle is also called the Devil's Claw or the Witches Snare, as it was indeed believed that demons and witches and other mythological evil critters couldn't cross one, but would be trapped.

[JoseB]

So are you people saying Rich is an Alchemist?

Or maybe he just drew something based on how these things always look when people draw them?

Or maybe it's three points for three fiends, or three souls.

I fear you may be reading too much into this...

Oh, of course not. I am not suggesting at all that Rich is any kind of alchemist, goetic magician, or anything like that. I do not believe in alchemy, goetia, or magic, myself.

But it is the mark of a good writer to do research and insert the results of that research into the works being created. I think that is what we are seeing here: Rich did his research and is showing his work in a not-too-blatant way.

Just my 2 eurocent!