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ShadowFighter15
2009-03-07, 11:30 PM
I've been thinking about the eldritch power that a warlock has and I was wondering just how much control over it he has. I don't mean like metamagic'd invocation, I mean like if a warlock didn't think he was intimidating enough, that he'd learn to supplement it by threateningly surrounding himself with eldritch energy.

I just imagine a warlock who wanted to be threatening, but just couldn't pull it off normally might try something like this to compensate. Rules-wise it'd just be part of his normal intimidate skill, but story-wise he's surrounding himself in a nimbus of dark energy as a way of saying "Yes, I can kick your ass without lifting a finger, now are you going to do what I say or should I demonstrate?"



I've also been wondering how viable a dual-wielding, DEX-based warblade is. I'm thinking of rolling one up (just to have on stand-by for any ToB-using games I decide to try out) and my image of him is... basically a more realistic version of Kamina, personality-wise; so low wisdom and high charisma. The low-wisdom basically rules out swordsage, since it's one of that class' main ability scores and the personality seems much closer to the warblade one mentioned in the ToB. Could a dual-wielding dexer warblade work or should I try finding something else for this character idea.

AslanCross
2009-03-07, 11:37 PM
Wasn't there an invocation that boosts your social skills? I can't remember if it was just Bluff and Diplomacy though. I think it was Beguiling Influence.


As for the second one: TWF Warblade is much more viable than a TWF fighter, of course. Tiger Claw supports it a lot and allows you to TWF without the obvious full attack vs mobility conundrum that non-martial adepts suffer.

If you want to retain Kamina's leadership quality, you could have him go Tiger Claw/White Raven. Tiger Claw for his own combat ability, while White Raven allows him to give his allies openings.

EDIT: Beguiling Influence boosts Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy.

Pyron
2009-03-07, 11:40 PM
I've been thinking about the eldritch power that a warlock has and I was wondering just how much control over it he has. I don't mean like metamagic'd invocation, I mean like if a warlock didn't think he was intimidating enough, that he'd learn to supplement it by threateningly surrounding himself with eldritch energy.

I just imagine a warlock who wanted to be threatening, but just couldn't pull it off normally might try something like this to compensate. Rules-wise it'd just be part of his normal intimidate skill, but story-wise he's surrounding himself in a nimbus of dark energy as a way of saying "Yes, I can kick your ass without lifting a finger, now are you going to do what I say or should I demonstrate?"

I don't see why not. It's purely a fluff-based element. It's also supported, somewhat, by the Complete Arcane itself, here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85424.jpg)

Alleine
2009-03-08, 12:06 AM
I don't see why not. It's purely a fluff-based element. It's also supported, somewhat, by the Complete Arcane itself, here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85424.jpg)

QFT. Fluff is all you, you can do pretty much whatever you want with it as long as it doesn't affect mechanics.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-08, 03:47 AM
I don't see why not. It's purely a fluff-based element. It's also supported, somewhat, by the Complete Arcane itself, here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ca_gallery/85424.jpg)

I thought it'd be alright, just wanted to make sure (probably a holdover from when I came up with a bunch of ideas for Inquisitor, I wasn't sure if they were plausible in the 40k universe so I'd run them by The Conclave (an Inquisitor forums) and see what they had to say).

@AslanCross: Thanks for that, now I just need to work out manoeuvres. I was a bit put off Tiger Claw because of how the user is supposed to sort of tap into an inner bestial ferocity, but I suppose a swordsman could learn the manoeuvres a different way with the same result.

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-08, 04:06 AM
TWF with Warblade should work decently. Keen Kukris and Blood in the Water Stance can get nasty. However, most powerful damage dealing TWF builds tend to have extra damage. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5645781&postcount=15 is what I did, thanks to Mr. Keld Denar's advice.
For the short time I played it (stupid players who stopped playing) it did extremely well. Your Spells are weak, but the + 3/4d6 to everyone at such is extremely deadly. Alter Self: Lizardfolk adds +5 Natural Armor; add in a Chain Shirt and a good Dex and you can easily hit 21 AC even with Punishing Stance. Be careful though, it is a little bit of a Glass Cannon.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-08, 04:13 AM
I'm sort of going for a glass cannon, someone extremely fast who guts the enemy before they even know he's there. Get in quick; hit 'em in the nads and move onto the next one. I'd rather stick with a human character; bland I know, but I'll stick to humans until I've actually played a couple of campaigns (still on my first over at Myth Weavers).

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-08, 04:35 AM
I'm sort of going for a glass cannon, someone extremely fast who guts the enemy before they even know he's there. Get in quick; hit 'em in the nads and move onto the next one. I'd rather stick with a human character; bland I know, but I'll stick to humans until I've actually played a couple of campaigns (still on my first over at Myth Weavers).

Not a problem; take the Dragontouched Feat from Dragon Magic. It gives you the Dragonblood subtype, so you can qualify for the feat. You could just move the build down slightly or take a flaw to accommodate the extra feat. I played as a typical Human too because the DM was adding in a +1 LA for Silverbrow. It's very powerful, but it will probably not overshadow your team mates; they certainly won't complain when their damage increases.

Eldariel
2009-03-08, 05:40 AM
Protip: Stormguard Warrior allows TWFer to wreck things. It takes two turns, but it'll kill just about everyone (and between all your Pounce-abilities and swift action movement, they aren't getting away)

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-08, 06:13 AM
Protip: Stormguard Warrior allows TWFer to wreck things. It takes two turns, but it'll kill just about everyone (and between all your Pounce-abilities and swift action movement, they aren't getting away)

Eldariel shows up yet again to spout far better knowledge than I have. Damn you and your ability to relay superior information!:smallwink:

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-08, 06:23 AM
Stormguard Warrior was mentioned in a ToB thread I found on the Wizard's forums earlier today, but I didn't get around to actually reading it until you mentioned it and I think that's something he'll have to take ASAP.

I'm actually thinking of using a pure warblade, how would a longsword and short sword work for weaponry? I know the longsword'll bump the penalties up a bit, but I suppose he could go with paired short swords or a short sword and dagger or kukri until his BAB is high enough to compensate.

Dhavaer
2009-03-08, 06:27 AM
Stormguard Warrior was mentioned in a ToB thread I found on the Wizard's forums earlier today, but I didn't get around to actually reading it until you mentioned it and I think that's something he'll have to take ASAP.

I'm actually thinking of using a pure warblade, how would a longsword and short sword work for weaponry? I know the longsword'll bump the penalties up a bit, but I suppose he could go with paired short swords or a short sword and dagger or kukri until his BAB is high enough to compensate.

Using a one-handed weapon for TWF won't increase the penalties unless you're using two of them. A longsword and shortsword will have the normal -2/-2 penalty.

Eldariel
2009-03-08, 06:31 AM
I do suggest instead picking up a Shadow Hand stance (either through Swordsage dip or Martial Study+Martial Stance) and "Shadow Blade"-feat to focus the entire character on Dex; that way you get Dex to hit (Weapon Finesse) & damage. That forces you to use a Shadow Hand-weapon (such as Short Sword) in both hands though, but as said, you don't need to care about Str at that point.

Talic
2009-03-08, 06:42 AM
I'd recommend a light weapon, to reduce the level of feat-intensity that the build has... But yes, Stormguard warrior is definately the power way to go.

Also, make the dip in Swordsage as late as possible.
{table=header]Level | Initiator level | Highest power known
1 | 1 | 1
3 | 2 | 1
5 | 3 | 2
7 | 4 | 2
9 | 5 | 3
11 | 6 | 3
13 | 7 | 4[/table]
By this, Level 9 is the ideal, as many level 3 stances are quite good, and you'll be able to start with more good maneuvers.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-08, 07:03 AM
Using a one-handed weapon for TWF won't increase the penalties unless you're using two of them. A longsword and shortsword will have the normal -2/-2 penalty.

Ah, thanks for that; forgot that part of the TWF rules.

@Eldariel: Shadow Hand doesn't sit too well with my image; from what I understand, Shadow Hand is focusses on stealth and surprise (I may be wrong with this, I only skim-read it's manoeuvres) and I don't see this character being the subtle type.

@Talic: I can only see a couple of feats this build is needing at its base: Weapon Finesse and Stormguard Warrior. The former I can take as the human's 1st level bonus feat and the latter I can get whenever I manage to qualify for it. Only other feat I can think of using would be Adaptive Style. Beyond that it isn't too feat-intensive.

Eldariel
2009-03-08, 07:07 AM
@Eldariel: Shadow Hand doesn't sit too well with my image; from what I understand, Shadow Hand is focusses on stealth and surprise (I may be wrong with this, I only skim-read it's manoeuvres) and I don't see this character being the subtle type.

The suggestion isn't that you go indepth in Shadow Hand-skills, but rather that you study the basics as a complement to your combat style; mechanically getting Dex to damage means you need Strength for nothing and can focus your character entirely on Dex. A small dip study in the school really makes TWF work.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-08, 07:22 AM
I see what you mean; but the Shadow Blade feat only applies to attacks made with the preferred weapons of the Shadow Hand style. For flavour reasons I'm wanting this guy to pair a longsword (probably replacing it with a rapier later on) with some other weapon; meaning only about half of his attacks (if that) will benefit from Shadow Blade.

Eldariel
2009-03-08, 07:29 AM
Yeah, if you can't make do with a pair of Short Swords, it's out. Although Longsword isn't finessable, which does look like a dealbreaker for you.

Keld Denar
2009-03-08, 10:02 AM
You might want to pair your Stormguard Warrior with Double Hit and either Robilar's Gambit (level 12+) or Karmic Strike (much lower level). This allows you to attack with both weapons when you trigger an AoO, and you can forgo both of them to gain bonuses to hit and damage. KS and RG trigger AoOs when someone attacks you or hits you respectively, and you can technically have both. That means if an enemy attacks you 3 times, you get 6-12 AoOs which result in some pretty major bonuses.

That said, I don't really like Stormguard Warrior. I think its too reliant on your DM. Unless you have some kind of pounce (which you can get from Pouncing Charge maneuver), you could spend a round making all your attacks as touch attacks to focus up your SGW, only to have the enemy move away from you, or worse, get KSed out from underneath you by an overzealous party member. That or it ends up giving your opponents extra damage on the round you give up, and then horribly over-kill them when your turn is up again. Its just got a lot of wonky mechanical faults that make it kinda....meh in my book.

Roderick_BR
2009-03-08, 10:51 AM
Maybe you could ask your DM to gain a ciscunstance bonus? I did it once with a wizard, using prestidigitation to make myself glow, laughing like a maniac, and that after blowing up an entire warship with fireballs (he found the ammunation and powder room, and ignated that). "You won't die now. Instead, I'll roast you... slowly.... and my friend here will heal your burns, so we can start all again... It may take hours, days... I can already feel the BBQ smell... of course, if we do find out where your boss is, we'll go after him instead."

Hunter Noventa
2009-03-08, 03:07 PM
Using a one-handed weapon for TWF won't increase the penalties unless you're using two of them. A longsword and shortsword will have the normal -2/-2 penalty.

However, there is a nice little feat in Complete Adventurer called Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, lets you use two one-handed weapons as if they were light when doing TWF. I have a fighter using it to great effect with a pair of dwarven waraxes.

Keld Denar
2009-03-08, 03:11 PM
However, there is a nice little feat in Complete Adventurer called Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, lets you use two one-handed weapons as if they were light when doing TWF. I have a fighter using it to great effect with a pair of dwarven waraxes.

Base weapon damage plays such a small part in overall damage output, that OTWF is generally considered a bad investment. The only reason to really take it is so you can Power Attack with your offhand as well, and then you need a huge source of bonus to-hit because otherwise your accuracy will be lagging bad.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-09, 10:22 PM
Okay, using some of the suggestions here, I've put together a 10th level warblade character for a game over on Myth Weavers. The character sheet is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=104637) and all I need to work out is manoeuvres (equipment and HP I'll sort out later). Since this is my first ToB character; I have no idea whatsoever about what manoeuvres and stances to take.

Because of some of the feats I gave him, he has to have the following:
1 Iron Heart stance (Ironheart Aura)
1 White Raven stance (White Raven Defence)
2 Iron Heart manoeuvres (Stormguard Warrior @Keld: It's got a few different uses so I'm sure it'll get a bit of use)

If anyone has any suggestions for manoeuvres and stances, let me know. Oh, and it was a 36 point buy with the ability scores (and the two increases at levels 4 & 8 were both put into dex), so if you think I should shift some points around, let me know.

EDIT: He'll be using a longsword paired with a short sword (I'll probably get him some sort of strength-boosting item to get his longsword's attack bonus up near what his short sword'll have).

Fishy
2009-03-09, 11:28 PM
No Wolf Fang Strike? No Sudden Leap?

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-09, 11:38 PM
Those sound pretty good and like moves that would suit the concept I was going for.

Since this character's a 10th level warblade, he knows 8 manoeuvres and 3 stances. The two Fishy mentioned are probably going to be guaranteed ones (unless there are better versions of them that my character would have access to), so I just need another 6 manoeuvres (two of which need to be Iron Heart because of Stormguard Warrior) and 3 stances (one of which needs to be White Raven and another needs to be Iron Heart).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-09, 11:43 PM
For 3rd level maneuvers, nothing beats White Raven Tactics or Iron Heart Surge. Though as a word of warning, IHS needs a lot of DM rulings. It works in situations that it shouldn't, and doesn't in situations that it should.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-09, 11:47 PM
I forgot about IHS, I told myself that it would be one of the guaranteed manoeuvres when I first came up with the concept. Might take White Raven Tactics, though with the luck I've had with Initiative rolls in another game I'm currently in, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get used much.

Draz74
2009-03-10, 01:44 AM
White Raven Tactics is still great if you roll crappy initiative, because you can make a party member who rolls higher and gets great use out of their turns (e.g. the party Wizard) go twice in one round.

8 maneuvers and 3 stances? Start with ...

Iron Heart Surge
Wall of Blades
White Raven Tactics
Dancing Mongoose
Pouncing Charge
Sudden Leap

Blood in the Water
Punishing Stance

I'll give you 3 choices for your last stance (Bolstering Voice, Leading the Charge, Press the Advantage) and 6 choices for your last 2 maneuvers (Moment of Perfect Mind, Insightful Strike, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Mithral Tornado, Death from Above, Lion's Roar). You'll have to narrow it down on your own from there, based on character concept, Concentration and Jump skills, and party composition.

A way to improve your Will save is definitely good to have mechanically, though it sounds like it may not fit the character concept. If that isn't a problem, you have two choices from the above options: Moment of Perfect Mind plus a lot of ranks of Concentration, or Bolstering Voice (which your party will thank you for anyway).

Strangely, I find Level 1 White Raven stances more tempting than their higher-level rivals. Leading the Charge -- wow. Sucks on its own unless you have a melee-heavy party composition, but combined with Pouncing Charge and TWF it's pretty devastating. (Especially if you set things up with Stormguard Warrior-Combat Rhythm, and they try to run away from you, giving you a perfect opening for your pounce ... :smallamused:)

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm sure this build "had" Wolf Fang Strike at lower levels, but traded it out somewhere along the way. It just doesn't stay relevant forever, especially once you get cool enough standard action strikes to rival it.

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-10, 03:17 AM
Okay, I've gone over what you suggested and these are the manoeuvres and stances:

Manoeuvres known:
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart)
White Raven Tactics (White Raven)
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw)
Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw)
Mithral Tornado (Iron Heart)

Stances known:
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw)
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart)
Bolstering Voice (White Raven)

The only problem I seem to see is that White Raven Tactics requires one White Raven Manoeuvre to be known before it can be selected, I'm assuming that if you know a WR move then take WRT and later swap out that first WR move you don't lose WRT? If so I'll be able to hand-wave that that's how it's the only WR move he knows.


EDIT: Incidentally; making this character has shown me that, while the Tome of Battle is a good book, it sorely needs both an index and a properly organised manoeuvre list.

TK-Squared
2009-03-10, 07:14 AM
EDIT: Incidentally; making this character has shown me that, while the Tome of Battle is a good book, it sorely needs both an index and a properly organised manoeuvre list.

They're indexed quite well at the front of the maneuvers section and all maneuvers can be easily referenced through maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), separated by discipline.

Furthermore (for edits), Bloodclaw Master, if you want to Prestige Class out at some time, is a good class for TWF Tiger Claw specialists. It reduces the penalty of TWF Tiger Claw weapons to nothing eventually and lets you use full strength on your offhand weapon. This requires you be in a Tiger Claw stance, I believe.

FinalJustice
2009-03-10, 08:09 AM
The only problem I seem to see is that White Raven Tactics requires one White Raven Manoeuvre to be known before it can be selected, I'm assuming that if you know a WR move then take WRT and later swap out that first WR move you don't lose WRT? If so I'll be able to hand-wave that that's how it's the only WR move he knows.


You want to keep two White Raven maneuvers to grab White Raven Hammer later. No save stun is that good. Now, if you intend to go with Swooping Dragon Strike (is this the name?) to stun, you can trade out the first White Raven and keep just WRT. But, I warn you, boost your jump check to boot and grab Leaping Dragon Stance to get extra 10ft on jumps. Even so SDS has logistics problems with jumping over people's head (not that easy when facing a titan or a dragon, gotta climb some of them first, I advise the Slippers of Spider Climbing + Ring of Feather Fall kit).




EDIT: Incidentally; making this character has shown me that, while the Tome of Battle is a good book, it sorely needs both an index and a properly organised manoeuvre list.

Absolutely. I love ToB characters, but creating them at high level is a chore due to bad organized maneuvers and the whole 'trading out' and 'maneuver pre-requisite' thing.

AslanCross
2009-03-10, 08:10 AM
Okay, I've gone over what you suggested and these are the manoeuvres and stances:

Manoeuvres known:
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart)
White Raven Tactics (White Raven)
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw)
Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw)
Mithral Tornado (Iron Heart)

Stances known:
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw)
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart)
Bolstering Voice (White Raven)

The only problem I seem to see is that White Raven Tactics requires one White Raven Manoeuvre to be known before it can be selected, I'm assuming that if you know a WR move then take WRT and later swap out that first WR move you don't lose WRT? If so I'll be able to hand-wave that that's how it's the only WR move he knows.


EDIT: Incidentally; making this character has shown me that, while the Tome of Battle is a good book, it sorely needs both an index and a properly organised manoeuvre list.


While the general rule is that losing a prerequisite of a character option makes you lose the benefit, ToB specifically states maneuvers are exempted from this rule.

Also, you might have to take Wolf Fang Strike (unless you swapped it out at Lv 4), since Sudden Leap requires you to have one existing Tiger Claw maneuver. It's also a good vanilla attack to have, since you'll be using TWF.

kalt
2009-03-10, 08:23 AM
I'd recommend taking a peak at the beshadowed blade v2.0 over on the char op boards for some downright nasty TWF fun.

Keld Denar
2009-03-10, 10:06 AM
I recommend you peak over at CharOp anyway. There is a thread over there "Tome of Battle for Dummies" which has a ton of info posted, including...a level by level maneuver list sorted by school WITH number of prereq maneuvers. This helps a ton. You might have to search down a bit, but its all there. Try the "Some Handy Links" sticky at the top as well, and Ctr+F through it for "dummies".

Darrin
2009-03-10, 10:27 AM
Stances known:
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw)
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart)
Bolstering Voice (White Raven)


Is the general recommendation taking Bolstering Voice over Leading the Charge? LtC damage scales up as your IL increases, and you know it will get used almost every encounter at least on the first round. I guess most will saves are "save or lose", and this build doesn't have Moment of Perfect Mind... but you can buy an item to boost your Will save, and if it's something that just debuffs you, you can get rid of the condition with WRT. You're probably going to spend 95% of your time in Punishing Stance anyway... not sure Bolstering Voice would ever get used, unless you know you're up against spellcasters with Will save effects.



The only problem I seem to see is that White Raven Tactics requires one White Raven Manoeuvre to be known before it can be selected, I'm assuming that if you know a WR move then take WRT and later swap out that first WR move you don't lose WRT? If so I'll be able to hand-wave that that's how it's the only WR move he knows.


Useful tip: stances count as maneuvers for the purposes of prereqs. So taking Bolstering Voice or Leading the Charge lets you take WRT. Keeping those two lets you take Press the Advantage. Then you can pick up White Raven Hammer.

Person_Man
2009-03-10, 10:49 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned TWF with Aptitude weapon abuse. An Aptitude weapon (Tome of Battle) lets you apply a weapon specific feat to any weapon. Combine that with the Warblade's ability to refocus a feat (they can change an Exotic Weapon proficiency to a different exotic weapon - this can be abused (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)) and something like Lightning Maces, Anvil of Thunder, Three Mountains Style, and/or Boomerang Daze, and you're set. For example, a Keen Aptitude kukri combined with the Lightning Maces feat gives you an extra attack whenever you threaten a crit, which is 30% of the time.

Also, what books are available and what's the ECL?

Draz74
2009-03-10, 11:00 AM
Manoeuvres known:
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart)
White Raven Tactics (White Raven)
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw)
Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw)
Mithral Tornado (Iron Heart)

Even though you picked all the highest-level things I had recommended, you can just barely fit all of these in at Level 10. You have 2 Level 5 maneuvers and 2 Level 4 maneuvers and 2 Level 3 maneuvers. You "swapped out" four maneuvers to get to this point, three Level 1's (including Wolf Fang Strike) and one Level 2.


The only problem I seem to see is that White Raven Tactics requires one White Raven Manoeuvre to be known before it can be selected, I'm assuming that if you know a WR move then take WRT and later swap out that first WR move you don't lose WRT? If so I'll be able to hand-wave that that's how it's the only WR move he knows.
As other people have mentioned, there are actually two ways to deal with this. First, yeah, you could have swapped out something else (Leading the Attack, probably), and losing a maneuver's prerequisite due to swapping doesn't actually have a penalty. Second, stances actually count as maneuvers for purposes of prerequisites, so Bolstering Voice could also count as your prerequisite.


Furthermore (for edits), Bloodclaw Master, if you want to Prestige Class out at some time, is a good class for TWF Tiger Claw specialists. It reduces the penalty of TWF Tiger Claw weapons to nothing eventually and lets you use full strength on your offhand weapon. This requires you be in a Tiger Claw stance, I believe.
Bloodclaw Master is decent, but it slows down your maneuver advancement some. Also, I've never used it because all of its abilities require using Tiger Claw weapons, which include neither the longsword nor the short sword. They're all light weapons.

You will be able to qualify for it easily, though, and you will probably be in a Tiger Claw stance (Blood in the Water) most of the time anyway. (The reduced TWF penalties from the PrC actually don't depend on being in such a stance, but some other features do.) So you can take it if you don't mind switching weapons. But it's hardly required. :smallcool: (I think Swordsages need it more than Warblades, with their worse BAB.)


You want to keep two White Raven maneuvers to grab White Raven Hammer later. No save stun is that good. Now, if you intend to go with Swooping Dragon Strike (is this the name?) to stun, you can trade out the first White Raven and keep just WRT. But, I warn you, boost your jump check to boot and grab Leaping Dragon Stance to get extra 10ft on jumps. Even so SDS has logistics problems with jumping over people's head (not that easy when facing a titan or a dragon, gotta climb some of them first, I advise the Slippers of Spider Climbing + Ring of Feather Fall kit).
Some DMs who otherwise allow ToB ban White Raven Hammer, and I don't completely blame them.

But yeah, optimization-wise you should definitely get Swooping Dragon Strike and/or White Raven Hammer eventually. Great boss-killers. If you want White Raven Hammer you'll have to get another White Raven Maneuver sometime. Unfortunately my favorite option (Clarion Call) has the same prereq as Hammer, so my next recommendation would be, probably, Lion's Roar.


There is a thread over there "Tome of Battle for Dummies" which has a ton of info posted, including...a level by level maneuver list sorted by school WITH number of prereq maneuvers. This helps a ton. You might have to search down a bit, but its all there. Try the "Some Handy Links" sticky at the top as well, and Ctr+F through it for "dummies".
Link. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680285) I concur that the list of maneuvers sorted by prereqs is quite handy (about halfway down the page, at the end of the third post, inside a Spoiler block).


Is the general recommendation taking Bolstering Voice over Leading the Charge? LtC damage scales up as your IL increases, and you know it will get used almost every encounter at least on the first round. I guess most will saves are "save or lose", and this build doesn't have Moment of Perfect Mind... but you can buy an item to boost your Will save, and if it's something that just debuffs you, you can get rid of the condition with WRT. You're probably going to spend 95% of your time in Punishing Stance anyway... not sure Bolstering Voice would ever get used, unless you know you're up against spellcasters with Will save effects.

LtC vs BV: tough call, IMHO (with Pouncing Charge in the picture; without that I'd say BV is much better). Depends strongly on party composition (how many of them charge, and how many of them appreciate the Will save boost, and whether there's a Cleric also throwing around Morale bonuses. The key thing to remember with both of these is that they affect the whole party, though, not just the Warblade.

:smallconfused: 95% Punishing Stance? I'd expect Blood in the Water (if he can get Keen weapons, at least).
:smallconfused: You don't expect to go up against spellcasters with Will save effects?

ShadowFighter15
2009-03-10, 05:39 PM
I doubt he'll be taking levels in Bloodclaw Master; the reduced TWF-penalties only count for Tiger Claw weapons and I'm still visualising this guy as wielding a longsword and a short sword, from my understanding that won't get me the bonuses.

I found the Tome of Battle for Dummies thread a while ago; before I started this thread actually.

The ECL for the campaign (I found one a couple of nights ago) is 10 and the allowed sources can be found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=1723322#post1723322).


Even though you picked all the highest-level things I had recommended, you can just barely fit all of these in at Level 10. You have 2 Level 5 maneuvers and 2 Level 4 maneuvers and 2 Level 3 maneuvers. You "swapped out" four maneuvers to get to this point, three Level 1's (including Wolf Fang Strike) and one Level 2.
The two I chose were the ones that I thought best fit the character's personality and his own sense of combat. Death From Above fits with my high-mobility image of him and Mithral Tornado because he's a reckless sort who would easily get surrounded.

I'll keep Swooping Dragon Strike and White Raven Hammer in mind for later in the character's life. Swooping Dragon Strike especially (I don't know if this guy would be willing to stun someone if he can just straight out kill them/knock them unconscious).

I didn't take Leading the Charge because I don't know how many melee characters are going to be chosen for this. I may take it at later levels if there are enough melee characters to warrant it.