Regarding Belkar's Alignment

[Tal9922]

I know the topic has been discussed to death in various ways, even after Rich assured us several times he's chaotic evil, but I do feel like there's still room for debate, or at the very least, clarification regarding some aspects of the character.

Namely, isn't he more like a Neutral Evil?

I mean, Rich himself said that Belkar isn't devoted to the cause of chaos and evil or anything, just completely amoral and hateful/ bloodthirsty. So doesnt that fit in better with Neutral Evil, rather than Chaotic? Or is my understanding of alignments flawed somehow?

[Fireballing_Fun]

I know the topic has been discussed to death in various ways, even after Rich assured us several times he's chaotic evil, but I do feel like there's still room for debate, or at the very least, clarification regarding some aspects of the character.

Namely, isn't he more like a Neutral Evil?

I mean, Rich himself said that Belkar isn't devoted to the cause of chaos and evil or anything, just completely amoral and hateful/ bloodthirsty. So doesnt that fit in better with Neutral Evil, rather than Chaotic? Or is my understanding of alignments flawed somehow?

You don't have to be devoted to the cause of chaos to be of Chaotic alignment, rather you value freedom and what not.

I suppose it can be quite difficult to distinguish neutral evil from chaotic evil for a lot of the time, I suppose the stereotype of neutral evil is one motivated by wealth and/or power, Chaotic evil is more into violence.

[Silverraptor]

Actually, I think the only reasno he's classified as "Chaotic" is the fact he doesn't care much fore rules at all. If he was Neutral, he'd care about at least some rules. I think.

[NamonakiRei]

Hmm... You make a good point... But I'd say Belkar is CE. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#theNineAlignments) says:


Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.

Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer"

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.



Well, I think that



Belkar, as said on the NE part, doesn't shed tears fore those wom he kills, nor has love for order, codes, etc. He despices them. That sounds NE. But!
On the CE alignment there says That, if he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. That's how the Belkster is, and he would be WORSE if he Were actually commited to causing chaos, you say The Giant said he's not commited to chaos. But that doesn't make him less chaotic. Also, his plans aren't that good... not too coherent, ceirtanly haphazard on many ocasions.
And didn't Roy say somewhere that belkar could've easily killed them on their sleep? Roy did try for Belkar not to kill the other party members, and when Roy was not, Belkart almos changed sides, and he killed people he shouldn't.

So, while Belkar has a couple NE elements, those are also compatible with CE alignment.

[Assassin89]

Belkar is still Chaotic Evil, but he is more subtle now. This means that he is still the same munchkin we all know, but he is more inclined towards preservation while ignoring rules.

[Optimystik]

NE villains tend not to actively go out looking to cause mayhem like Belkar does. There are at least two definitely NE villains in the comic: Haera Bloodsoak and Leeky Windstaff. Both have very different attitudes to evil than Belkar does.

Haera wants V to kill people that have "slighted him." Compare that to Jephthon, who wants V to unmake reality and attack people that have done nothing towards him.

Similarly, Leeky's evil is dedicated to a cause: he's your typically militant extremist environmentalist. His ire, like Haera's, has a specific target - those who fail to revere nature by living in cities ("concrete abominations.")

Belkar has no rhyme or reason to his evil. He murders a gnome because he wants its donkey, kills innocent guards just to taunt a paladin, is loyal to his teammates, and both makes use of AND ignores a restraining order from the same lawyer. In short, he does exactly what he feels like doing with no moral or personal code guiding his actions. He's Chaotic to a tee.

[Querzis]

The Order/chaos axis is more a question of attitude then anything else. Sure, all evil alignement can end up doing the same thing. Lets say they all want to conquer the world. The LE character do it because he want to establish his rule on the world. The NE evil character do it to further the cause of evil. The CE character do it because its fun. You can base good/evil on actions but Order/chaos is all about how and why you do it.

So yeah, Belkar is most definitly chaotic evil. The point of chaos is that you simply follow your whims. A chaotic character, no matter if hes good, neutral or evil, dont do things for a cause or because they were raised to think that way. They do things because they feel like it. They dont have to value freedom, they just have to love freedom. They dont have to break rules, they just dont follow any rules. Off course, chaotic good character usually want to free people since they think freedom is great and, since they are good, they want everyone to be free just like them but chaotic evil characters? No, nothing else then their freedom matter to them. Belkar is most definitly chaotic and I would even say hes very chaotic. He never do anything else then follow his whims.

[The_Void]

In my opinion, he was Chaotic Evil for the first 600 or so strips, but is now Chaotic Neutral since his fake character development.

[Kish]

The last time we saw him, he made a special point of still being as vile as ever. But what does it matter? People have theorized that Belkar is suddenly not evil anymore whenever a strip shows him doing anything other than random wanton killing for a very long time, and people will do so for the rest of the comic's run.

[David Argall]

A minor point is his hatred of paladins, which is hardly unique to CE, but still fits best at the exact opposite alignment.

[Selene]

In my opinion, he was Chaotic Evil for the first 600 or so strips, but is now Chaotic Neutral since his fake character development.

I feel like if you're being compared to "a hypothetical offspring of Cruella deVille and Sauron" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) you probably need to do more than fake a little character development before you're in neutral territory.

[LuisDantas]

In my opinion, he was Chaotic Evil for the first 600 or so strips, but is now Chaotic Neutral since his fake character development.

Nope. Being good/neutral/evil is about more than just faking. Belkar is as evil as ever - he just realized that he must pretend otherwise.

If anything, he is even worse for that.

[magic9mushroom]

Belkar still wants to destroy society and kill thousands (5 kilonazis remember).

He has therefore certainly not gone towards good, and has only gone towards law in that he's willing to work within the system to save his own skin. Not out of any respect for society itself - "What's the point of their Society, anyway? It never did anything for me."

He has therefore transitioned from Stupid Evil to Smart Chaotic Evil.

[Janmorel]

Seeing as his fake character growth is the result of his conversations (or hallucinations thereof) with the Chaotic Lord Shojo, I'd say that he's still CE.

[bluewind95]

I think Belkar's change isn't an alignment one, but rather a... well... probably a wisdom one, regarding his actions. I think that the author decided that the character was, without Roy to keep him in check, veering towards the chaotic "stupid" side of the spectrum. So the "powers that be" (that is, the author himself) sent Belkar a hallucination to create the necessary character development so that the character would keep his alignment (chaotic evil, evil for fun and because he can be) but without ever going back to the chaotic "stupid" side of things. After all, a character like that becomes a burden to the story, rather than an asset, and characters are supposed to be assets to the story, rather than burdens. So Belkar has not changed alignments. He just is a lot smarter at being chaotic evil than he used to be.

[DBear]

nah, Neutral Evil is more "nothing personal, just business", such as the Yakuza or Mafia. Chaotic evil is for kicks, while Lawful Evil is for "the cause", such as a country or religion.

[Optimystik]

nah, Neutral Evil is more "nothing personal, just business", such as the Yakuza or Mafia. Chaotic evil is for kicks, while Lawful Evil is for "the cause", such as a country or religion.

Actually, the Mafia and Yakuza are universally recognized examples of Lawful Evil. Both organizations have rigid, overarching codes of respect and honor... concepts which Neutral Evil villains would find tiresome.

[Mr. Pin]

The alignment system doesn't cover everyone; in fact very few people fit neatly into the "malefactor" or "destroyer" roles. You should take a character's personality and try to fit a loose classification on it just because that makes things easier, not take a blurb from the PHB and try to shoehorn a character into it.

[lexcorp026]

I've always interpretted it as the Law/Chaos axis being the means and the Good/Evil axis being the ends.

Belkar is still interested in killing people without regards to individuals or purpose. That is evil.

For the first six hundred or so, Belkar regularly presented a threat within the party and to party agenda. His question to the Oracle reflected his desire to kill (among other people) Roy. He later killed the Oracle before Haley could speak with him, despite the Oracle being a useful tool to help further the party goals. According to Haley, Belkar always teetered the fence between asset and liability, leaving them unsure if he was worth having around. Half the reason she didn't boot him before that point was simply out of fear of immediate retaliation. Similarly in Roy's afterlife interview he states that he is well aware that Belkar is evil and that Belkar's presense in the party does not represent any condoning of his actions; Roy kept him around well aware that Belkar would never be turned good, but out of an idea that Belkar could be properly directed to commit his evil acts against better targets if he remained a part of the group. Belkar was chaotic to the tee, hating the confining rules and restricting presense of his own party to the point that he wanted a couple of them dead.

Now with the attitude change, this is a BIG alignment step for him. Yes, Belkar is just pretending to be following good motives. But why is he doing it? Because it makes it easier for him to fit in with society as a whole. Because it makes him more readily accepted and trusted within his party, a group which he now actually seems to have an interest in reuniting. Belkar is willing to abide by general society rules and accept leadership within a group, rather than buck authority in favor of individual freedom to his whims. And yes, while he is just pretending to be good, he has legitimately shown a desire to cooperate within the greater body if only because it will be beneficial to himself.

Increase in group cooperation. Increase in accepting directing leadership. Increase in acceptable society behavior. Sacrifice of a certain degree of individual freedom. And all done for personal gain. That's pretty much following the checklist for an alignment shift from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil.

I wouldn't say Belkar is actually Neutral Evil yet (if he was my PC I wouldn't let that alignment change happen so drastically so quickly). 600 pages of CE don't get outweighed by 35 of NE, especially when we've actually been following V's story for a portion of those. Let's wait and see how well and how long he can hold up this standard of behavior before we decide if he's actually been able to change himself and learn to cooperate. The guy doesn't get to stop being chaotic just for simply saying he wants to fit in better; he has to actually do it.

[RMS Oceanic]

In my opinion, he was Chaotic Evil for the first 600 or so strips, but is now Chaotic Neutral since his fake character development.

How does fake character development result in an alignment change? :smallconfused:

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. Just because you like him doesn't mean his nature will change.

1. Rarely keeps his word. Has no honor.
2. Lies and cheats anyone.
3. Most certainly attacks and kills an unarmed foe (those are the best kind!).
4. Will hurt and/or kill an innocent without a second thought. (Or for pleasure).
5. Uses torture to extract information and pleasure.
6. Will kill for sheer pleasure.
7. Is likely to help someone only on a whim.
8. Despises honor and authority and self-discipline. Views them as weaknesses.
9. Does not work well in a group. Constantly vying for power and/or command.
10. Will always take dirty money, etc.
11. Will betray a friend. After all, you can always get another friend.
12. Associates mostly with other evil alignments.

[Aaron]

How does fake character development result in an alignment change? :smallconfused:

It doesn't. Belkar is still pure CE. And comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)shows just how CE Belkar is. Belkar's just going to pretend to have character development, and then go killing random people when the rest of the party is not looking.

[kusje]

And comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)shows just how CE Belkar is.

Nitpick. 489 only shows the Evil scale.

[Kylarra]

I've always interpretted it as the Law/Chaos axis being the means and the Good/Evil axis being the ends.

Belkar is still interested in killing people without regards to individuals or purpose. That is evil.

For the first six hundred or so, Belkar regularly presented a threat within the party and to party agenda. His question to the Oracle reflected his desire to kill (among other people) Roy. He later killed the Oracle before Haley could speak with him, despite the Oracle being a useful tool to help further the party goals. According to Haley, Belkar always teetered the fence between asset and liability, leaving them unsure if he was worth having around. Half the reason she didn't boot him before that point was simply out of fear of immediate retaliation. Similarly in Roy's afterlife interview he states that he is well aware that Belkar is evil and that Belkar's presense in the party does not represent any condoning of his actions; Roy kept him around well aware that Belkar would never be turned good, but out of an idea that Belkar could be properly directed to commit his evil acts against better targets if he remained a part of the group. Belkar was chaotic to the tee, hating the confining rules and restricting presense of his own party to the point that he wanted a couple of them dead.

Now with the attitude change, this is a BIG alignment step for him. Yes, Belkar is just pretending to be following good motives. But why is he doing it? Because it makes it easier for him to fit in with society as a whole. Because it makes him more readily accepted and trusted within his party, a group which he now actually seems to have an interest in reuniting. Belkar is willing to abide by general society rules and accept leadership within a group, rather than buck authority in favor of individual freedom to his whims. And yes, while he is just pretending to be good, he has legitimately shown a desire to cooperate within the greater body if only because it will be beneficial to himself.

Increase in group cooperation. Increase in accepting directing leadership. Increase in acceptable society behavior. Sacrifice of a certain degree of individual freedom. And all done for personal gain. That's pretty much following the checklist for an alignment shift from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil.

I wouldn't say Belkar is actually Neutral Evil yet (if he was my PC I wouldn't let that alignment change happen so drastically so quickly). 600 pages of CE don't get outweighed by 35 of NE, especially when we've actually been following V's story for a portion of those. Let's wait and see how well and how long he can hold up this standard of behavior before we decide if he's actually been able to change himself and learn to cooperate. The guy doesn't get to stop being chaotic just for simply saying he wants to fit in better; he has to actually do it.Alternatively we could point out that since Shojo is the one advising him to do such things and Shojo was the leader of an entire city and presumably chaotic good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) that Belkar's newfound bluffing of the system is more of a ceasing to be chaotic stupid. He's still CE, just in a more party-apropos manner.

[multilis]

Nitpick. 489 only shows the Evil scale.
Nitpick, 489 *appears* to show an evil scale. Obviously Beklar is really GOOD, therefore Roy must be in an evil afterlife, and this is a scam to get Roy's help in controlling a gate so they have edge over the Good side.

Proof: The evil side uses *deception*. If the evil side appeared evil, there would be no deception, they would be honest. Therefore they must pretend to be non evil, to really be evil! (Eg Nale)

[JonahFalcon]

Nitpick, 489 *appears* to show an evil scale. Obviously Beklar is really GOOD, therefore Roy must be in an evil afterlife, and this is a scam to get Roy's help in controlling a gate so they have edge over the Good side.

Proof: The evil side uses *deception*. If the evil side appeared evil, there would be no deception, they would be honest. Therefore they must pretend to be non evil, to really be evil! (Eg Nale)

Well, Lawful Evil characters have no qualms about appearing evil. Then again, neither do some Neutral and Chaotic Evil characters... like ones who eat chips out of a bowl made from a kobold's head.

[bluewind95]

Alternatively we could point out that since Shojo is the one advising him to do such things and Shojo was the leader of an entire city and presumably chaotic good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) that Belkar's newfound bluffing of the system is more of a ceasing to be chaotic stupid. He's still CE, just in a more party-apropos manner.

I said the same thing, but no one ever listens to me. :smallfrown:

[Kylarra]

I said the same thing, but no one ever listens to me. :smallfrown:Well odds are no one's gonna listen to me either. :smallwink: But you're right, you did say it first.

[Godskook]

Personally, I think he did have an alignment change, but not to CN, like some are proposing, but rather to NE. Here's why:

Chaotic people have no regard for any rule that gets in their way.

Lawful people believe there are codes of conduct on behavior(various source for that code)

Neutral people have some balance of the two.

Now, there are only two reasons I can think of for why a person would respect others. One, they are neutral or better on the morality scale, which implies a measure of selflessness - something Belkar doesn't have. Two, they are neutral or more orderly on the ethics scale. This second option holds water with Belkar. He is now willing to respect others because respecting others helps get him what he wants.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the Giant is using a more precise alignment system because I'm starting to like the thought that Belkar's new alignment is the middle point between ultimate CE and truly TN.

I forget whose profile I found that link in though....

[V'icternus]

Nah, he's still Chaotic Evil through and through. If he ever met a powerful, Chaotic Evil Devil, he'd work for him for a couple of minutes, then stab his eyes out and use his various body parts for various things.


"Ah, gotta love my new back-scratcher!"

"Is... is that a Devil's hand?"

"No, it's a back-scratcher! Weren't you listening?"


But now, he's realised that if he keeps going on the path he's on, he wont be able to kill anyone, because they wont get involved with him. This way, he can get close to people, and then...

*Splorch*

[Snake-Aes]

It still irks me the first thing people thing on the order-chaos axis is abiding to laws.
Laws have nothing to do with it. Lawful characters have absolutely no boundaries with laws they don't agree with if they have the power to either change them or escape them. Chaotic characters are exactly the same.


Order-Chaos is better viewed, I think, as your own way of life. You are either better used to patterns and discipline, or you are out for what you want at that moment. Orderly characters tend to plan longer and maybe better, while chaotic characters "swing it".

If it is convenient for Belkar to pretend he is NOT a murderous sexy shoeless god of war, then he will pretend he is not a murderous sexy shoeless god of war.