Is V Damned?

[Fireballing_Fun]

In accepting the soul splice has not V, firstly 'physically' tainted his soul and denied himself any sort of Good afterlife, and secondly committed an 'evil' act or at least an act which will offend all Good Gods because the ultimate intention of the pact is to advance the agenda of the three fiends to the eventual destruction of Good.

Is the kicker that regardless of what happens the Good Gods will not touch him with a barge poll and indeed the only 'logical' choice is to essentially turn over to the 'dark side'.

[Silverraptor]

Thank you for addressing my concern! I was worried about that too. Won't this keep V's soul out of good after life?

[Kaytara]

Thank you for addressing my concern! I was worried about that too. Won't this keep V's soul out of good after life?

Selling your soul for all eternity, i.e. a Pact Certain, results in an instant alignment change to Lawful Evil.

However, this isn't really the case here. V isn't selling his soul permanently, he's renting it for a limited amount of time. Regardless of how much that's worse/better than a Pact Certain, the alignment change thing may not apply because it is specific to a Pact Certain rather than fiendish deals in general.
The action will probably nudge him significantly towards evil, but likely not damn him irredeemably for all eternity.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Selling your soul for all eternity, i.e. a Pact Certain, results in an instant alignment change to Lawful Evil.

However, this isn't really the case here. V isn't selling his soul permanently, he's renting it for a limited amount of time. Regardless of how much that's worse/better than a Pact Certain, the alignment change thing may not apply because it is specific to a Pact Certain rather than fiendish deals in general.
The action will probably nudge him significantly towards evil, but likely not damn him irredeemably for all eternity.

I dont feel that he deserves an alignment change, but as he has knowingly and wilfully allowed his soul to be spliced with that of three incredibly evil beings and in doing so has advanced the cause evil then I personally feel he is in a state of 'excommunication' and no good God will touch him until he atones.

[magic9mushroom]

I dont feel that he deserves an alignment change, but as he has knowingly and wilfully allowed his soul to be spliced with that of three incredibly evil beings and in doing so has advanced the cause evil then I personally feel he is in a state of 'excommunication' and no good God will touch him until he atones.

Noone cares whether a good god "will touch him" or not. In D&D religion is not necessary to go to a Good afterlife (and thank goodness for that!). You just go to the plane that matches your alignment.

That said, V is getting extraordinarily close to NE at the moment.

[factotum]

Thank you for addressing my concern! I was worried about that too. Won't this keep V's soul out of good after life?

That assumes he was ever intended for a Good afterlife...many people think V was always True Neutral, which is why he was such a ripe target for temptation.

And yes, there's a significant chance that V will do something so irredeemably evil while soul-spliced that he becomes damned himself, but I don't think the fiends require that to happen--I think their plan is a great deal more subtle than that.

[Vorgen]

Noone cares whether a good god "will touch him" or not. In D&D religion is not necessary to go to a Good afterlife (and thank goodness for that!). You just go to the plane that matches your alignment.

That said, V is getting extraordinarily close to NE at the moment.

Well, then what is the Wall of the Faithless there for then? The screaming souls of thousands of billions of the damned who followed no god slowly being eaten until they are simply consumed. Or is that just Forgotten Realms?

[Cúchulainn]

Noone cares whether a good god "will touch him" or not. In D&D religion is not necessary to go to a Good afterlife (and thank goodness for that!). You just go to the plane that matches your alignment.

That said, V is getting extraordinarily close to NE at the moment.

Well sure but there's the whole deal with the deva judging Roy like there's an interview process that goes down the line or something, that doesn't happen in D&D I'm pretty sure. If V somehow ends up waiting in line for a judgement in the good heavens, which is very unlikely but I don't know the process, he'll have to explain away the whole sellingof soul thing. "It was temporary" won't fly.

That said, I agree, NE.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think that is just FR, Vorgon (OotS seems to be using normal D&D afterlives looking at Roy's afterlife).

[Glome]

The Three Fiends themselves suggest that V is neutral and I don't believe that has changed here. While ultimately V ended up accepting the deal for the wrong reasons, it still wasn't for evil reasons and wasn't without hesitation. One action alone doesn't (usually) make someone evil anyway, I don't think this an exception here.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure V. is still slotted to go to one of the neutral planes, which would have a lot easier requirements than getting into the seven heavens.

[jamroar]

Well, then what is the Wall of the Faithless there for then? The screaming souls of thousands of billions of the damned who followed no god slowly being eaten until they are simply consumed. Or is that just Forgotten Realms?

That's just the Forgotten Realms. And also grotesquely unjust, as has been lampshaded in various FR material.

[Moofaa]

The Three Fiends themselves suggest that V is neutral and I don't believe that has changed here. While ultimately V ended up accepting the deal for the wrong reasons, it still wasn't for evil reasons and wasn't without hesitation. One action alone doesn't (usually) make someone evil anyway, I don't think this an exception here.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure V. is still slotted to go to one of the neutral planes, which would have a lot easier requirements than getting into the seven heavens.

I wouldn't say this is just one action alone pushing him to NE though, he did abandon his freinds on the ship when they needed him in a pursuit driven ultimately by his own ego.

Also theres the matter of what the fiends want him to do in their service once he finishes saving his family.

[imp_fireball]

I dont feel that he deserves an alignment change, but as he has knowingly and wilfully allowed his soul to be spliced with that of three incredibly evil beings and in doing so has advanced the cause evil then I personally feel he is in a state of 'excommunication' and no good God will touch him until he atones.

Technically, being 'good' is all about forgiveness unless you're using what I call the 'diablo theory' (which is probably in accordance to OotS universe), wherein there is a war between 'good' and 'evil' planes and its just a matter of taking sides with the addition that good and evil are prone to different forms of cruelty directed at different individuals, etc., etc.

[magic9mushroom]

Well sure but there's the whole deal with the deva judging Roy like there's an interview process that goes down the line or something, that doesn't happen in D&D I'm pretty sure. If V somehow ends up waiting in line for a judgement in the good heavens, which is very unlikely but I don't know the process, he'll have to explain away the whole sellingof soul thing. "It was temporary" won't fly.

That said, I agree, NE.

Remember though. She interviewed him based on actions that would affect what his alignment was. She didn't interview him based on religion. Which is what I'm getting at. As long as V isn't Evil when she dies then she won't go to an Evil plane.


Well, then what is the Wall of the Faithless there for then? The screaming souls of thousands of billions of the damned who followed no god slowly being eaten until they are simply consumed. Or is that just Forgotten Realms?

FR only, and I suspected that's what you were talking about from the start of the thread.

And I want to disembowel whoever came up with the idea.

[magic9mushroom]

I wouldn't say this is just one action alone pushing him to NE though, he did abandon his freinds on the ship when they needed him in a pursuit driven ultimately by his own ego.

Also theres the matter of what the fiends want him to do in their service once he finishes saving his family.

Correct, however Faustian Pacts Certain (which this is close to) are considered "consummate acts of evil" such that your alignment changes to Evil no matter what it was before, and can't be changed back unless you atone.

Selling your soul is a huge act, after all.

[snafu]

The underworld don't own V's soul outright; they've just got a limited-term indenture on it. It's not the same as a traditional pact where you go to hell forever. V is not necessarily damned at this point.

Still, making deals with devils is an evil thing to do. And I've no doubt that V is about to conduct herself in a spectacularly evil manner - even if her aims are good, in that she means to slay an evil creature threatening her family, she's sure to use enormously excessive force and go to great lengths to cause the dragon as much suffering in the process as possible. Once the soul-splice wears off I wouldn't be surprised to see V discover that Evil Feels Good and do more of it. It'll be the intoxicating thrill of power, of exerting one's own will over another. Long term, she might well end up in hell after all.

[kusje]

I wouldn't say this is just one action alone pushing him to NE though, he did abandon his freinds on the ship when they needed him in a pursuit driven ultimately by his own ego.

Also theres the matter of what the fiends want him to do in their service once he finishes saving his family.

You can't say he's evil for abandoning them. Not wanting to be friends anymore isn't an evil act. Besides, his stated goal was to look for haley/roy/belkar and protect the gates. He has no obligation to Azure city (don't forget, Azure city has forcibly captured him under false pretense and made him fight their battles.)

I agree with the fiends part though.

[Trebuchet]

Chance of redemption: 20%

I know from experience that our DM would not make it easy on any character who made such a bargain, and in any case it could never be undone, even if it there were atonement. Our DM isn't the Giant, of course, but the Giant is certainly making it clear that this deal is very serious business.

V made a deal with every kind of evil, and there was a choice. V's family and friends will almost certainly be appalled, and deny that they would want this transformation in order to save them. So V walked into an evil bargain, with no illusions. Wow. V might not be irredeemably evil, but the redeeming will be hard and chancy at best.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Noone cares whether a good god "will touch him" or not. In D&D religion is not necessary to go to a Good afterlife (and thank goodness for that!). You just go to the plane that matches your alignment.

That said, V is getting extraordinarily close to NE at the moment.

I care, V probably cares, and I sure you don't get to go to a plane that matches your alignment if you have offended the paragons of said alignment.

I am just a bit sad in that I like to have a dash of religious realism (is that an oxymoron).

[Fireballing_Fun]

PS: I've assumed that V is good aligned, so sorry if I am wrong!

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure s/he's Neutral. Or has been Neutral--somehow I doubt Super-Vaarsuvius would read "Not Evil" if someone cast Detect Evil on them.

[David Argall]

Well, there is all too good a chance you will be wrong. But on the available evidence, one can still insist V is good, CG in particular.

[GoC]

I know from experience that our DM would not make it easy on any character who made such a bargain, and in any case it could never be undone, even if it there were atonement.

You mean your DM would never let a character rent his soul, only sell it?
Makes sense. Rent has little in the way of consequences compared to a sell.

I'd say V is not damned. While his current alignment is evil she will switch back to neutral when the soul-splice ends. Of course, it's very likely that the addiction to power will claim her eventually.

Fireballing_Fun: You probably hold the record for the longest time between posts on this board.:smalleek:

[Raenir Salazar]

That's just the Forgotten Realms. And also grotesquely unjust, as has been lampshaded in various FR material.

how was it lampshaded? While I know of the Wall (Primarily from playing Mask of the Betrayer) I have almost never seen it mentioned at all in any books, or is it only mentioned in the book pertaining to Kelemvor's Ascension to godhood after the Time of Troubles?

[Zevox]

At this point, no. Lending her soul to the IFCC is not the same as permanently committing it to one of the evil planes. V's ultimate destination in the afterlife at this point is going to depend largely on three things:

1) How persistent the "alignment feedback" from the Soul Splice is. In other words, if she becomes permanently evil, or reverts to neutral after the splice ends. If she's permanently evil, she'll end up in one of the evil planes (Hell, Hades, or the Abyss, depending on which variety of evil she ends up as). If she reverts to neutral, she'll probably still end up in the True Neutral afterlife.
2) Whether the Elven God V worships will take her in if she does become permanently evil (which itself depends on if the Gods in the OotS world have any actual say in where a mortal goes for their afterlife or if it is 100% sorted by alignment).
3) Whether the IFCC have something up their sleeve to get ahold of V permanently we're not currently aware of.


Well, then what is the Wall of the Faithless there for then? The screaming souls of thousands of billions of the damned who followed no god slowly being eaten until they are simply consumed. Or is that just Forgotten Realms?
The Wall of the Faithless is strictly FR, yes, and frankly the worst part of their cosmology, one of the only parts I'd actually change myself.

I'm actually very confused on why you would think that would exist in the OotS given what we know about its afterlife already. Just look back at Roy's interview - he explicitly stated he doesn't really care about the Gods, and he got into Celestia, so I'm not sure what could have made you think that not following a God is a bad thing here. Plus we know V does worship an Elven God from when Elan tried to recruit her to worship Banjo, so even if the Wall did exist here, it wouldn't apply to her regardless.


how was it lampshaded? While I know of the Wall (Primarily from playing Mask of the Betrayer)
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Mask of the Betrayer. Many of the characters in that game, at least one of your party members included, were decrying the Wall as a horrible perversion of "justice" and attempting to get it torn down, remember?

Zevox

[Mr. Pin]

It's critical to understand that Vaarsuvius did do a bad thing- I don't think anyone would argue that- but she did it to save her family. Saving your family is, I think, a good enough reason for someone to cancel out the soul splice. Will the gods see it that way? Maybe. But from my perspective, V's actions were totally excusable.

[Fireballing_Fun]

I'd say V is not damned. While his current alignment is evil she will switch back to neutral when the soul-splice ends. Of course, it's very likely that the addiction to power will claim her eventually.


I would not say that his alignment is evil now, he just has the thoughts and feelings of three very people in his head and would most probably detect as evil.

I'd say he was damned because when he dies and goes to neutral good/lawful good/chaotic good his fellow deceased and passing Gods will see him and go... "oh you are the fellow who made a pact with that new fiendish trinity, who either a) have the potential to shaft us over if morons like you make pacts with them, b) are currently shafting us over because a moron, specifically you, made a pact with them".

That does not seem right, obviously D&D does not focus on cosmology but I'd personally rule that this act bars him from a good afterlife, instead he should end up in a sort of 'limbo' (though not one as harsh as that wall of death thinge).



Fireballing_Fun: You probably hold the record for the longest time between posts on this board.:smalleek:

Yes I know... strange I guess!

[Trebuchet]

I know from experience that our DM would not make it easy on any character who made such a bargain, and in any case it could never be undone, even if it there were atonement.


You mean your DM would never let a character rent his soul, only sell it?
Makes sense. Rent has little in the way of consequences compared to a sell.


Well, my last character did something very like V did. He did back out of the deal, meaning he didn't get any benefit, and didn't give any service in return. Still, he figured his chances of being damned were pretty high, and he was working hard on avoiding it. He couldn't undo the fact that he once decided to accept a demon's offer.

Vaarsuvius is of course a completely different character in a completely different setting, but I just can't see V getting off easily. This is too cool, too evil, and too dramatic a development to leave V unchanged. If the result is certain damnation, then what makes V's remaining story interesting? If it is truly temporary with no permanent cost, then it is still uninteresting. No, I think our favorite tormented elf will have to fight to reclaim a very tainted soul, and I am really looking forward to seeing how it will go.

[magic9mushroom]

I care, V probably cares, and I sure you don't get to go to a plane that matches your alignment if you have offended the paragons of said alignment.

I am just a bit sad in that I like to have a dash of religious realism (is that an oxymoron).

Your surety is misplaced. Especially since it's been stated in OotS that devoutness has nothing to do with which afterlife you go to.

Religious realism? Since anything that comes close to real-world religion gets deleted, I won't respond directly to that. PM me if you wish to discuss it further.

But the Greyhawk system seems to me fairer than the FR system.

[magic9mushroom]

I would not say that his alignment is evil now, he just has the thoughts and feelings of three very people in his head and would most probably detect as evil.

I'd say he was damned because when he dies and goes to neutral good/lawful good/chaotic good his fellow deceased and passing Gods will see him and go... "oh you are the fellow who made a pact with that new fiendish trinity, who either a) have the potential to shaft us over if morons like you make pacts with them, b) are currently shafting us over because a moron, specifically you, made a pact with them".

That does not seem right, obviously D&D does not focus on cosmology but I'd personally rule that this act bars him from a good afterlife, instead he should end up in a sort of 'limbo' (though not one as harsh as that wall of death thinge).

In D&D, when you die, you automatically drift to whichever outer plane fits your alignment best. The Gods aren't involved. The judging with Roy notably has no relation to religion and every relation to his alignment - ie, whether he's drifted to the right place or not.

Now, V's deal with the fiends probably is enough to make sure she never gets into a good afterlife, but not for God-pissed-off reasons. It's simply an act of consummate evil, which would push any Good character to Neutral and most Neutral characters to Evil. And she was already Neutral to begin with (Word of God in the adventure game).

[Fireballing_Fun]

Religious realism? Since anything that comes close to real-world religion gets deleted, I won't respond directly to that. PM me if you wish to discuss it further.


Really? That seems pathetic and extreme, surely roleplayers are not so highly strung on the subject of religion?

[Fireballing_Fun]

In D&D, when you die, you automatically drift to whichever outer plane fits your alignment best. The Gods aren't involved. The judging with Roy notably has no relation to religion and every relation to his alignment - ie, whether he's drifted to the right place or not.

Now, V's deal with the fiends probably is enough to make sure she never gets into a good afterlife, but not for God-pissed-off reasons. It's simply an act of consummate evil, which would push any Good character to Neutral and most Neutral characters to Evil. And she was already Neutral to begin with (Word of God in the adventure game).

See I don't like that, I've always preferred the idea that either your soul, sorry your characters soul drifts to, or is collected by the relevant God. Or ends up in limbo.

Or that your soul goes before an anubis or osiris like God (apoligies for a real world religious mention but as no one worships those gods anymore it should not count).

And despite the fact that I've raised this issue I don't consider V's act to be truly evil. It essentially 'sinful' in that it potentially aids evil in their war against Good, but morally speaking it's neutral.

[whatchamacallit]

If V were 'good' I'm sure it'd be a very troubling thought. I doubt the powers of the concordant opposition will be overly judgmental. As long as V doesn't reveal too much in the power or cause too much wanton destruction while under the effects of the bargain then there shouldn't be too many problems. After all s/he's just doing what's necesssary to survive while protecting hir own.

However if the 'power-drunk' effect of the bargain causes hir to lose too much of hir conscience or ethics then the slide into the temptation of 'evil' may possibly change hir final destination permenantly.

[whatchamacallit]

Or that your soul goes before an anubis or osiris like God (apoligies for a real world religious mention but as no one worships those gods anymore it should not count).


These religions are still practiced in real life.

[magic9mushroom]

See I don't like that, I've always preferred the idea that either your soul, sorry your characters soul drifts to, or is collected by the relevant God. Or ends up in limbo.

Or that your soul goes before an anubis or osiris like God (apoligies for a real world religious mention but as no one worships those gods anymore it should not count).

And despite the fact that I've raised this issue I don't consider V's act to be truly evil. It essentially 'sinful' in that it potentially aids evil in their war against Good, but morally speaking it's neutral.

I don't want to get a warning for talking about real-world religion, and I don't want the topic locked. I will PM you my response.

[David Argall]

V may prove to be damned by the plot, but she is not by the logic of the situation. For one thing, the idea of saving the soul of one threatened to go to hell is just too plot helpful. So it is about certain he can get out from under. Whether she will is another story.

[Iranon]

I don't think v has damned vself as such, but that might be cold comfort.

Characters in the comic are often aware they're in a comic, PC/NPC status and so on. This makes V one of the most important people by default, and the fiends have direct confirmation that V's heading for the gates. So V is quite a prize for the fiends.

They didn't specificy under which cirucumstances they'd take over V's soul. If they can have a fancy time stop effect during negotiation, they might be able to use such during the deal... and even if not, a few well-prepared archfiends could probably warp a mortal quite permanently in a short time when directly hijacking their soul.
Note that V expects simple torture, but dismisses it as an inconvenience with no lasting effects... even if it is going to be something that crude, that is dangerously cocky. I'd be more concerned about losing my sanity than temporary discomfort.
Then they could simply split their time up, one standard action at a time.

The fiends mention a non-competition deal with the evil gods. There might be other deals - for example that the gods can't interfere with people who bargain their souls to fiends...

So while V hasn't damned vself yet, v might have done enough to let other forces to that for v.

[Godskook]

V had 3 options, each containing an action or result that no Good god would approve of(that I'm aware of). The question is, which is the worst?

1)The option V took required a soul-renting deal with fiends.
2)Doing nothing would result in 2-3 souls being permenantly bound to an evil dragon
3)The fiend's alternative required V to commit suicide.

The biggest problem is that #2 is something that can't happen in the religions I'm aware of, so I have no way of measuring its evil compared to the others. It is possible that this event plays out similarly to what happens in "Constantine":

At the end of the movie, Constantine commits suicide(a damnable offense in the movie) to make Satan aware of Satan's son's treachery. Satan asks what he wants in return, offering longer life as a possibility, and Constantine instead asks for someone else's soul to be allowed into Heaven, essentially accepting his own damnation for the first time in the movie. As Satan attempts to take Constantine to hell, God redeems him for his selflessness, and as Constantine begins to float towards Heaven, Satan refuses to accept the current verdict by restoring Constantine's life.

Yet, without knowing the value placed on each option by Good gods, we can't easily decide which was the worst option.

[BlueWizard]

I think V may end up in the lower planes now.

[magic9mushroom]

V had 3 options, each containing an action or result that no Good god would approve of(that I'm aware of). The question is, which is the worst?

1)The option V took required a soul-renting deal with fiends.
2)Doing nothing would result in 2-3 souls being permenantly bound to an evil dragon
3)The fiend's alternative required V to commit suicide.

The biggest problem is that #2 is something that can't happen in the religions I'm aware of, so I have no way of measuring its evil compared to the others. It is possible that this event plays out similarly to what happens in "Constantine":

At the end of the movie, Constantine commits suicide(a damnable offense in the movie) to make Satan aware of Satan's son's treachery. Satan asks what he wants in return, offering longer life as a possibility, and Constantine instead asks for someone else's soul to be allowed into Heaven, essentially accepting his own damnation for the first time in the movie. As Satan attempts to take Constantine to hell, God redeems him for his selflessness, and as Constantine begins to float towards Heaven, Satan refuses to accept the current verdict by restoring Constantine's life.

Yet, without knowing the value placed on each option by Good gods, we can't easily decide which was the worst option.

A quibble:

Goodness/Evilness in D&D is objective. We don't care what the value that the Good gods place on each is, we care which is defined to be the most Good. Gods don't come into it.

[Arcane_Snowman]

A quibble:

Goodness/Evilness in D&D is objective. We don't care what the value that the Good gods place on each is, we care which is defined to be the most Good. Gods don't come into it. I have to agree with the talking Fungi: V has damned Vself by striking a dealing with the anthropomorphic manifestations of evil.

[Lissibith]

I'm of the depends-on-what-he-does-now camp.

I'm not super familiar with D&D. Do evil acts committed while under another's influence count against yourself if you allowed the dominating spell to be cast?

[Fireballing_Fun]

A quibble:

Goodness/Evilness in D&D is objective. We don't care what the value that the Good gods place on each is, we care which is defined to be the most Good. Gods don't come into it.

Are the Gods subjects of alignment or the authors of it?

If the former (and I suppose it is) then wouldn't the alignment shift of a God make for a brilliant campaign idea? Hmm

[Arcane_Snowman]

I'm of the depends-on-what-he-does-now camp.

I'm not super familiar with D&D. Do evil acts committed while under another's influence count against yourself if you allowed the dominating spell to be cast? Technically he isn't being dominated: as he was notified by the fiends, he is simply receiving suggestions from his more amoral gestalt parts. It's still his choice to act upon them.

[magic9mushroom]

Are the Gods subjects of alignment or the authors of it?

If the former (and I suppose it is) then wouldn't the alignment shift of a God make for a brilliant campaign idea? Hmm

Subjects of it. Let me quote the Fiendish Codex II for lack of a better example:


A state of raw chaos was intolerable to the universe, so a force
arose to combat it—the power of law. From this principle of abstract
order, a number of beings coalesced to combat the demons.
These new deities of law...


On that day, the deities began to see that law and chaos were not
the only principles in the universe. Good and evil were natural forces
in the cosmos as well. So the gods separated themselves from one
other on that basis. Deities such as Hecate and Set offered patronage
to Asmodeus’s poisoned angels, while Heironeous and some of the
others drew back from them still more.

However, deities being outsiders with few exceptions, they can't change alignment.

[Fireballing_Fun]

However, deities being outsiders with few exceptions, they can't change alignment.

Pffh.. thats what I say!

It could make for a cool plot so there!
(Maybe for a minor and non-primordial deity).

[magic9mushroom]

Pffh.. thats what I say!

It could make for a cool plot so there!
(Maybe for a minor and non-primordial deity).

IE, Bahamut, Tiamat, or Vecna.

I agree that it would be interesting.

[Fireballing_Fun]

IE, Bahamut, Tiamat, or Vecna.

I agree that it would be interesting.


I am not up on the rules concerning the death of deities and the ascension to Godhood but what about this, you have an evil demi-God, through the ages his power diminishes. A party of good adventurers storm his last temple, (or his last major temple). They destroy it. The God dies. The last survivor of the adventuring party ascends to God-hood claiming the vanquish Gods portfolio (which was not in itself evil).

However the previous God is not truely dead, but rather in a state of divine coma or has survived as a non-sentient remnant? As he slowly recovers (his temple is still active afterall) the usurper good Good finds himself increasingly drawn towards evil and has a major personality crises.

As time goes on, certain people find themselves able to become Priests of the former God, or worship the current God in his 'aspect' as the older evil God.

Holy Schziophrenia batman!

Can't tell it is a brilliant idea or a pile of faecees.

[magic9mushroom]

Great idea, not new though. The idea of "you kill it, you bought it" has been around for a very long time, and has been in D&D since Deities and Demigods.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Great idea, not new though. The idea of "you kill it, you bought it" has been around for a very long time, and has been in D&D since Deities and Demigods.

Don't make me pffh you again!

[magic9mushroom]

Don't make me pffh you again!

What? I'm just playfully pointing out to you that you're reinventing the wheel.

[Fireballing_Fun]

What? I'm just playfully pointing out to you that you're reinventing the wheel.

Pffh!

I did warn you, but you had to try your luck!

[magic9mushroom]

Pffh!

I did warn you, but you had to try your luck!

Me no get it.

:/

[Fireballing_Fun]

Me no get it.

:/

Erm... sorry... its just me being silly!

[Undead Prince]

Perusing the Book of Vile Darkness...



EVIL ACTS

GREED

Greed is so simple a motivation that it hardly seems worth
mentioning. Yet it drives villains perhaps more than any
other factor. Greed is tied into most of the types of evil
behavior mentioned here. Ambition taken too far—particularly
advancement at the expense of others—can manifest
itself as greed. Lust for wealth, power, or prestige can lead to
jealousy, theft, murder, betrayal, and a host of other evils.

VENGEANCE

Revenge is a powerful force. An act of vengeance does not
have to be evil, but the evil mindset usually redefines the
concept as “revenge at any price.” Vengeance without limits
can quickly lead to all sorts of evil acts.

CONSORTING WITH FIENDS

If characters can be judged by the company they keep, then
those who deal with fiends—demons and devils—are
surely evil beings themselves. Fiends are the ultimate expression of evil given animate form—literally evil incarnate.
Destroying a fiend is always a good act. Allowing a
fiend to exist, let alone summoning one or helping one, is
clearly evil. Occasionally, a spellcaster may summon a fiendish creature to accomplish some task. Such an act is evil, but not terribly so.
However, some characters, particularly those who
worship demons or devils or see them as valuable allies, may
work with (or for) fiends to further their own ends. Worse
still, some mortals sell their souls to fiends in order to gain
more power or support. Although dealing with fiends or
selling souls is risky at best, the lust for power is a temptation too strong for some to resist. But fiends have great power, infinite life spans, and a delight for double-crossing others, so it’s not surprising that most characters who ask for a fiend’s aid end up on the wrong end of the deals they make.

CASTING EVIL SPELLS

Evil spells may create undead, inflict undue suffering, harm another’s soul, or produce any of a slew of similar effects.
Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting
a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an
evil purpose. But the path of evil magic leads quickly to corruption and destruction.

BRINGING DESPAIR

Evil creatures often enjoy spreading pain and misery to
others. Some do this because breaking the spirits of others
makes them feel superior; others sow despair for the sheer
joy it provides them.

Sometimes encouraging misery runs counter to other evil
goals. For example, a blackguard interested in bringing
despair might leave his enemies alive but wounded,
defeated, and broken (and maybe even cursed or magically
corrupted). However, refusing to finish off one’s foes isn’t
always the wisest course of action, because the blackguard’s
enemies might heal themselves and oppose him again, with
a vengeance.

Similarly, a misery-loving fiend might tell a captured foe
his plans before he kills her, just to revel in his victim’s
despair. Such a creature wants its enemies to realize how
utterly defeated they are.

And If V decides to take both irony and revenge one step further...


DAMNING OR HARMING SOULS

While harming one’s enemies physically is not inherently
villainous, harming their souls is always evil. Only the
foulest of villains could actually want to cause pain to
another creature’s eternal aspect. Creatures without corrupt
hearts simply dispatch their foes quickly, believing that sending a villain off to the justice of the afterlife is punishment enough. But evil beings like to capture foes and torture them to death, and some even prefer to torture the souls of their foes, never granting them the release of death. Worse still, some evil beings use their foul magic to destroy an opponent’s soul, ending his or her existence altogether.

V has half of the entire evil act pantheon under his belt.

He's on the fast-track to total perdition, that's for sure. If not already there.

Apart from the above, BoVD has an interesting lineup of villain types. Curiously, most of them have distinct representatives in the OOTS world:

THE BOORISH THUG - Thog
THE TYRANT - Xykon, Redcloak, Lord Tyrinar
THE SCHEMING LIAR - Nale
THE PSYCHOPATH - Xykon, Belkar
THE SOPHISTICATE - Kubota
THE MONSTER (my personal fav) - ABD ("what Agrattanath really enjoys is killing the children of his dead foes slowly and then feasting on their quivering hearts")
THE UNEXPECTED VILLAIN - Vaarsuvius
And finally, THE MISGUIDED FOOL - Miko, Vaarsuvius

Honestly, they fit to a "t". The Giant must have really studied the Book - and indeed, it makes a cameo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) in the strip.

Such a pity it was not updated to 3.5. What a font of delicious lore.

[hamishspence]

Given that numerous feats and spells from it have been updated in subsequent sourcebooks, it can be treated as valid, except where later books directly contradict it.

Unfortunately, monsters and prestige classes may require the DM to do the updating job, since there is no online 3.5 rules update for it.

[rxmd]

(EDITed because of a mixup with the forum software confusing two posts.)

(The content of this post was basically that we don't know whether Tiamat exists at all; all that we know is that dragons have a goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) and that there's a Dragon in the Southern pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html); as corrected by another poster, though, there's a direct reference to a five-headed dragon goddess in #331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html))

[hamishspence]

Actually- we do. Go back to the Oracle strips. Tiamat is shown. In SoD, the 5 headed dragon goddess is referred to as "T" for short.

[rxmd]

Actually- we do. Go back to the Oracle strips. Tiamat is shown and mentioned by name.
OK, she's shown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). I stand corrected. Where did you find the name mentioned?

(EDIT: OK, I see your other edit now. That could of course be Takhisis or whoever, but I guess nobody reads Dragonlance nowadays :smallredface:)

[hamishspence]

sorry, I thought the Oracle mentioned her by name. Still "Five headed Mistress of Dragons" is pretty close, and in standard D&D setting this defaults to Tiamat.

[rxmd]

Fine, now we've got that cleared up :smallsmile:

[Zevox]

Tiamat is mentioned by name as one of the gods of the West in "The Crayons of Time" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) strips. "Marduk, Tiamat and the gods of the West," Shojo says.

Zevox

[harami2000]

Selling your soul for all eternity, i.e. a Pact Certain, results in an instant alignment change to Lawful Evil.

However, this isn't really the case here. V isn't selling his soul permanently, he's renting it for a limited amount of time. Regardless of how much that's worse/better than a Pact Certain, the alignment change thing may not apply because it is specific to a Pact Certain rather than fiendish deals in general.
The action will probably nudge him significantly towards evil, but likely not damn him irredeemably for all eternity.
Not particularly sure on what "get your soul" means in 633 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) (as opposed to "be able to use you for a soul splice"). If that's "full control of your conscience", then kiss goodbye permanently since it only takes a round to voluntarily agree to that.

On the other hand, V might just wake up on the island and find out this has all been a delusional nightmare due to stress and lack of sleep. :smallsmile: