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Crabs Magee
2009-03-08, 02:58 PM
So in 4e my group, I have an over-zealous paladin of Bahamut (much like an Avenger) that the party keeps running into. They don't like each other, and have fought on many occasions, but they haven't killed each other because the paladin's code forbids it (you know...being lawful good and all...). I have houseruled that you must be the same alignment as your deity (unless your deity is unaligned) to worship them/use your Divine powers. If you lose this trait, you fall and lose any power that has the Divine keyword.

Anyway, the party is mostly evil. They are being sent to infiltrate and steal from a temple of (you know it) Bahamut. I want my Paladin-guy to (attempt to) stop them, but I need a way to make him fall.

So here's my questions: a.) how do I get him to fall, and b.) what would that look like? Like Miko's fall? I was thinking he could become really mad at one of the PC's and make a killing blow, thus breaking the law....but that seems kinda lame...

So...advise me!

holywhippet
2009-03-08, 03:33 PM
There is no actual "fallen paladin" mechanism in 4E. AFAIK there is no atonement spell equivalent either. With DM fiat you could rule that they lose their power if they fail to uphold the tenets of their faith. For Bahamut these are justice, honor, nobility and protection. Maybe while he's chasing the party he fails to protect someone or something important? The problem is, it really needs to be a deliberate act and not just an oversight or accident.

Falling by killing one of the PCs is iffy. If they are evildoers he should be trying to arrest them with killing being an option if they don't surrender (you can turn a killing blow into a disabling blow). They'd need to seriously anger him in order for him to forget his vows.

Crabs Magee
2009-03-08, 03:52 PM
There is no actual "fallen paladin" mechanism in 4E. AFAIK there is no atonement spell equivalent either. With DM fiat you could rule that they lose their power if they fail to uphold the tenets of their faith. For Bahamut these are justice, honor, nobility and protection. Maybe while he's chasing the party he fails to protect someone or something important? The problem is, it really needs to be a deliberate act and not just an oversight or accident.

I know all this. I houseruled that you can fall. And the point is, as the DM I'm trying to make him fall.


Falling by killing one of the PCs is iffy. If they are evildoers he should be trying to arrest them with killing being an option if they don't surrender (you can turn a killing blow into a disabling blow). They'd need to seriously anger him in order for him to forget his vows.

I know. Thats why I'm suggesting that. The serious anger thing isn't a problem - the PC's and this guy absolutely hate each other. If the PC's make him angry enough (desecrating the temple of his patron, talking loads of crap, etc) he may just forget his vows for a second and deliberately kill one of them (the PC would be resurrected, of course).

Totally Guy
2009-03-08, 04:03 PM
If you lose this trait, you fall and lose any power that has the Divine keyword.

Isn't that every single paladin power?

As long as he's your guy and not one of the PC's should be ok.

I'd have him try knock someone unconcious, if he can't do that with his powers maybe some poison. Then have him hold the individual, PC or NPC as a hostage with the threat of a Coup-de-gras should they continue to do bad themselves.

Swordguy
2009-03-09, 04:08 AM
Does your PC want his paladin to fall? If he doesn't, and you're going to force it on him without the benefit of a discussion ("look, man...the rest of the group wants to play evils PC, and we don't want to have interparty conflict. Can you roll up a new PC or something, and I'll let you play the pally in the next game, and I'll through a bit of extra loot your way for the trouble"), then you're, frankly, a crappy GM. He's justified in walking out completely on you for that sort of shennanigans.

Now, if you've spoken with him, and he told you and the rest of the group to take a flying leap, then you're more within your rights (though it's still kinda crappy to forcibly hose a character). But you really need to talk to him first. Heck, he might ENJOY getting to play a fallen paladin - but it needs to be his choice, not yours.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-09, 04:19 AM
Sword Guy, the Paladin is a DM character. What else does his code ban him from doing?

Swordguy
2009-03-09, 05:02 AM
Sword Guy, the Paladin is a DM character. What else does his code ban him from doing?

Ah...damn it. I read "I have a...Paladin" as "I have a Paladin n my group", since he's the GM and running a GMPC isn't the norm.

Well then, now that I look like an idiot, if you're the GM and running the NPC, you can have him fall any way you like - even if it's clearly a mistake. People make those sometimes, even if they're suboptimal. If you feel a need to justify it more, the fastest and easiest way to pull this off is to force the Paladin to choose between a catastrophic Lawful act, and a catastrophic Good act. Fixing a Paladin into a binary choice where both choices result in an alignment shift is a time-honored way to force a Paladin to fall.

Alternatively, you can have him "corrupted" by your PC. Have him do evil things over time, and if the PCs ask, point out that he feels friendship to the evil PCs, and admires their "insert objectively evil but quasi-good quality here". He becomes more and more evil, eventually falls, and it's because of the corrupting influence of your PCs. They'll LOVE that if they're playing evil characters.

Fishy
2009-03-09, 05:55 AM
1) Fallen paladins, wooooo, yaaaay.

2) 'Falling' really ought to be something that happens over a long period of time. Not one encounter, and certainly not in one swing of a sword.

But with that out of the way, let's break it down. Paladins of Bahamut believe in Justice, Honor, Nobility, and Protection. It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, to live by their word and by their promises, and to work for the common good of all man/elf/dwarf/lizardkind.

A Fallen Paladin of Bahamut, therefore, is somebody who doesn't care about anybody else. He doesn't believe in Justice- He's not interested in what's good for the common man, only what's good for himself. He doesn't believe in Honor- He's happy to lie, cheat and steal to get what he wants, because he doesn't care about what other people think about him. He doesn't believe in Nobility- He doesn't respect authority, and he only follows orders when they're suitable to his personal agenda. And he doesn't care about Protection- The strong can use their power to do whatever they want, without justification. That's what it's for.

So, the easiest way to do this is to pick something for your paladin to fixate on, until it becomes more important to him than his faith and his duty. Traditionally, it's the BBEG, or the party, in this case. Slowly, he stops hunting the PCs in order to save the world, and starts hunting the PCs because he wants to hunt them.

But really, it could be anything. Power, fame, love, alcohol, gambling- for Miko, it was the gods, oddly enough. It could be grilled cheese sandwiches for all that it matters. Put your paladin in a position where he disobeys orders, breaks his oaths, and abandons the people he swore to protect- all in order to get a grilled cheese sandwich, and boom.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-09, 06:11 AM
I thought it was more about Shojo conditioning Miko to act how dshe did wit his lies then coming undone that lead to Miko's fall? Falling ove grilled cheeese sandwiches would be interresting if you could set it up, though. :smalltongue:

Being serious, the Miko reference and Fishy's explanation gave me an idea; while the PCs break into the temple, have an attack on the town. This would give the Paladin a choice between defending the valuables whch the PCs are after, or dashing off to defend the townspeople. Based on the idea that he's class the valuables, and his vendetta against the PCs, as more important then the townspeople, he could fall then.

(Incidentally, are there NPC classes in the 4th Edition? If there are only level 0 people, ignoring them whle they are being attacked would be even more selfish because they would be weaker then Commoners. :smalltongue:)

Narmoth
2009-03-09, 06:45 AM
One encounter last session (3.5 D&D, some houserules) comes to mind:
My character, a blackguard and former paladin of St.Cuhbert comes to the temple of St.Cuhbert to get some healing potions. He hasn't yet been kicked out of the temple, as his fall was unknown for them. Then he did a lot to anger St.Cuhbert, and they are, unknown to the bg, starting to catch up.

So, when I come to the temple, a squad of guards, a cleric and a paladin on horseback are waiting for me. Now, I have 20 ranks invested in diplomacy, and play a honorable black knight type of blackguard. I don't kill innocents, and I try to get out of fighting with diplomacy rather than fight in a town who's ruler we are allied with (the rest fo the group are neutral)
So, while I start negotiating with the cleric, who's the one in charge, the paladin charges me. While I'm flatfooted, have no weapon readied, and are unable to defend myself.
This would be an example of unhonorable conduct by a NPC paladin that could be part to a fall.

Undead Prince
2009-03-09, 07:21 AM
Oh ye gods, how I loathe 4th ed...

Anyway. What sort of Paladin code forbids to kill evil creatures?! After detecting alignment, he should have no problem killing everyone in the party who's Evil. As for the rest, any form of preventive imprisonment is okay, since they're obviously criminals. Then, deliver them for judgment to the proper authorities.

To make him fall? Entrapment into committing evil acts for good causes. E.g. "kill one innocent to save many" situation. A couple of those, and he'll fall harder than a ton of bricks.

hewhosaysfish
2009-03-09, 09:37 AM
Anyway. What sort of Paladin code forbids to kill evil creatures?!

That depends largely on whether the DM/group is using "hard" Good and Evil or "soft" Good and Evil.
The guy who dedicates his entire life to helping the poor is unarguably Good (except on the Internet, where there is nothing that can't be argued about); the guy who strangles women for kicks is unarguably Evil; the guy who just farts around all day is obviously pretty Neutral.
The guy who regularly gives a bit of money to charity? Is he good enough to be Good (soft)? Or is he just Neutral (hard)? The guy who gobs in hamburger of customers he doesn't like the look of? Evil (soft) or Neutral(hard)?

From your confusion (and apparent indignation) I'd guess you generally go for the hard interpretation.

And even if hard alignments are in play, the Paladin may be obligated to take criminals in alive (you mention it yourself below).
In any judicial and/or political system that I would be inclined to call both Lawful and Good then even Stabby "Babyeater" McPuppykicker, the most heinous criminal imaginable, would be arrested and tried instead of killed in the street (assuming he allowed himself to be...).


After detecting alignment, he should have no problem killing everyone in the party who's Evil. As for the rest, any form of preventive imprisonment is okay, since they're obviously criminals. Then, deliver them for judgment to the proper authorities.

There is no Detect Evil in 4e. People felt that it spoilt to many mystey plots or something. Oh and encouraged people to play the type of paladin that inspired Rich to create Miko.

Narmoth
2009-03-09, 09:50 AM
Even with "hard" alignments, the paladin code demands that the paladin fights honorably in 3.5
That's why he can't use poison. Therefore he should let the evil characters get a chance to:
1. Surrender
2. Prepare themselves to fight him, not by buffing up, but at least by letting them draw weapons.

The paladin in my example failed to give any of it to the blackguard

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-09, 10:01 AM
Leave it up to the party.

Challenge the party to frame him for the robbery/desecration of the temple. If they can come up with a plausible frame up scenario, reward them by having some high ranking holy warriors of Bahamut (paladins, clerics, avengers, etc.) who are not personally acquainted with this particular Paladin show up and apprehend him, with the assistance of the party. Have him witness the leader of this group personally thanking the party leader and perhaps offering a reward for service to Bahamut.

The Paladin will be compelled to seek justice, which is clearly being miscarried, and protect the innocent from the future deeds of your party - he can't let the party get away. However he will also be duty and honor bound to submit to a trial to defend himself against the false accusations leveled against him - compelling him to stay in custody and obey his captors. It will put him in an impossible situation. He will simultaneously be required by his code to escape and apprehend the party, but also to not escape and prove his innocence.

xPANCAKEx
2009-03-09, 10:10 AM
Make it personal for the paladin

set up a scenario where the PCs have a chance to really piss him off by doing something to antagonise. Give them info as to where he family/a loved one lives/destroy something VERY dear to him (the orphanarium where he grew up with a cyclops). If they take it - personalise it for the paladin - have him swear vengence as they escape.

The more he seeks vegence, and less justice, the closer to the edge he gets - then you just have to give him a suitable climactic nudge over it

why do you want him to fall anyway?

Tengu_temp
2009-03-09, 10:56 AM
That depends largely on whether the DM/group is using "hard" Good and Evil or "soft" Good and Evil.

What about mixing those? I use soft Good and hard Evil, and know there's at least one person on these forums who does the opposite. Needless to say, we don't agree.

Flickerdart
2009-03-09, 03:16 PM
Violating Justice, Honor, Nobility and Protection all in one go? Nothing easier. The Paladin hates the party, right? So, preferably through political intrigue (as he still thinks he's a Paladin, thus, no killing, and also violates Honor) he takes over a local duchy or what have you, violating Nobility. He does this in order to direct the troops normally stationed as protection from, say, orc invaders, to run the PCs down and gut them, violating Protection. After the PCs defeat the troops, he has no choice but to give up...except he's too far in to quit. He decides that the PCs are worth the costs, and frees a group of bandits from the prison on the condition that they kill the PCs, breaking the vow to Justice.

Then I suppose you could have the PCs save the duchy from awful destruction by orcs and get a lot of land and serfs to their name. A fair end to a campaign.

Telonius
2009-03-09, 03:35 PM
Impersonate his superior and order a Code Red, maybe?

hamishspence
2009-03-09, 03:38 PM
I lead toward soft alignment for everyone except paladins, unless they are taking Exalted feats/PRCs. As in- occasional small evil act will not cause Good character to immediately drop to neutral, Good can be the friendly neighbour who contributed a lot of time and effort to helping community, not just the Hero, etc.

Going by BoED, a paladin does not Fall for refusing to obey evil orders. They're Lawful, but not that lawful.