The lethality of nWoD

[Attilargh]

I'm a fan of the new World of Darkness and have heard now and then that the fights in it can get pretty lethal. Now, I know the rules involved but lack any meaningful experience of the system, so what I'd like to know is just how badly an average mortal will get hurt if you pick a fight. Math is welcome, at least in moderation.

[xPANCAKEx]

also - as another outsider to the system, how lethal is it in comparison to GURPS?

[Comet]

Can't really go into detail with math, but here's my experience on the matter.

It's lethal, but not that lethal. My gripes are mainly with firearm combat, melee seems fine.

Assuming that the fighters are competent, normal guys with moderately effective firearms. In other words, two dots of firearms and two dots of whichever attribute influences shooting (dexterity? Been a while since I ran a game). The weapon gives a couple of points extra damage, but that really doesn't matter.

In my experience, firefights tend to involve a lot of "scratching" and "grazing". That is to say, the damage output per turn is only a couple of points of lethal damage. Considering that the average person can take up to seven points of damage, these small hits tend to make combat a long process. This is especially true for supernatural creatures, but even mortals tend to receive only minor wounds.

The combat is really well balanced and fun, but it doesn't seem violent enough. In my opinion, when someone pulls a pistol in a horror game, people should go down in a couple of turns. It should be brutal, messy and brief. This wasn't the case with NWoD. Continuously describing the attacks as "nearly hitting you" or "grazing your leg" got pretty tedious at times.

Just my personal experience, dunno if others are feeling the same way.

[GolemsVoice]

Judging from what I have experienced as a player, supernatural creatures can take a lot of normal attacks. That is, a LOT, either because they resist, or regenerate, or are immune to parts of it. On the other hand, depending on what creature you encounter, combat can be really deadly really fast, because many of the supernatural foes are pretty nasty.
But as Conjob says, combat between mortals aremd with handguns or melee weapons is, while far deadlier than D&D, for example, not that dangerous. Dangerous enough, though, to make a fight an option the players might consider to avoid.
I myself like the way fights between mortals are. Bloody enough to make them risky, and to make sure that you really want to avoid getting hurt, but merciful enough that people can have fights and have a reasonable chance that, unless their character does something stupid or has very bad luck, thy will survive the fight and will still be able to continue investigating.

[hiryuu]

In the few games of nWoD I have played, I have seen people drop in a single round from a light pistol, and I've seen people get grazed by shotguns. On average, people tended to take 3-4 damage per shot, which means about two hits took most normal people down (which is about where it should be).

Remember that damage from a weapon adds dice to the attack, so a firearm that does 3 damage adds three dice to your attack. You "average" firearms user will be rolling maybe 7-8 dice (2 Dex, 2 Firearms, 1 Specialty, 2-3 from weapon, some guns give you the 9-again or 8-again rule!). You average firearms user shouldn't be able to bring someone down instantly, because in reality, an average firearms user can't do that unless he or she is extremely lucky.

Also, don't forget that lethal damage is a jerk, because pacing in a game like that is very different from D&D. It heals 1 every two days for your average mortal, and two days in a WoD game should run two sessions at least.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By contrast, GURPS is an incredibly lethal game system. An average human has 10 hit points, and guns tend to do between 3d6 and 6d6, with semi-auto and burst-fire rules able to do massive rates of fire compared to other weapons. Now, Armor in GURPS isn't a chance of mitigation, it is Damage Reduction. So if you are wearing an armor with DR 10, and you get shot for 16 damage, you just took 6 out of your 10 damage. Make a HT check for system shock, and you have a -6 penalty on all actions for the next round. So yea, one hit can cripple or kill in GURPS.

[NeoVid]

Useful statistics:

To have at least a 50% chance of success, you need 3 dice. 4 dice jumps you up to 75%, and 6 dice to about 88%. So people with decent combat skills can usually count on doing some damage every turn.

Remember armor or defense can cut dicepools a lot, but guns usually don't allow defense.

The system is balanced somewhat in favor of offense.

Supernaturals- or combat-optimized characters of any type- really throw off the odds, so watch out.

The game in general isn't all that deadly. Just remember to give ordinary humans plenty of time to heal.

[Semidi]

Tip:

To increase lethality of firearms do this:

Add the bonuses of the weapon to the the number of successes (if any success are achieved), not the number of the dice pool. That way, taking a bullet from an assault rifle will almost certainly be deadly without full combat armor.

For instance: someone with firearms 3 and dex 3 shoots someone in riot gear with an assault rifle (I think that's minus 3) so it's (3 + 3 - 3 = 3) The shooter gets 1 success giving the person shot and 4 for the gun resulting in 5 lethal damage (if the target isn't a vamp.).

[Attilargh]

So the rules portray gunfights more like, say, Band of Brothers as opposed to Leone's spaghetti westerns. That's good to know, and actually pretty much what I want out of a game, too. Quick, messy death has shock value and sounds cool on paper, but I don't know if that's quite what I want out of a game. After all, fight scenes are cool, and it'd be a right hassle to have to shoehorn a new character in just because of some bad luck.

[Selrahc]

Someone who really goes for gun combat can probably kill someone if it is important to do so. Say you have an FBI sniper attempting to take out a kidnapper:
4 skill +4 dex +4 for a sniper rifle +1 for a speciality in that gun +3 for willpower +2 for aiming + 2 successes for 9 again (Approx) = 8 health levels per shot on average. Perhaps more if they have some merits. Armour piercing.

Someone who doesn't focus on gun combat and finds themselves in an impromptu firefight is going to be a lot less powerful. If a guy who has a little bit of training is in say, a warehouse shootout with a pistol then he would be taking a fair few shots to do much damage. Personally, I'd do the first few turns all at the same time before, and narrate the three grazes that are likely to ensue as two misses and a proper hit.
2 skill + 2 dex + 3 for the gun -1 or more for range/environmental conditions = 2 successes on average.

Someone who is incompetent with guns *can* still do real damage. Imagine a frightened woman grabs a shotgun from the wall, and uses it to halt an intruder in their tracks. After a few rounds of tension the intruder attempts to seize the gun. The woman lets fly with the shotgun, dealing him a devastating wound in the stomach.
2 dex + 4 for the gun + 3 for willpower + 2 for point blank + 2 for aiming -1 for no firearms skill +1 success for 9 again (approx)= 5 successes on average.

[lisiecki]

I'm a fan of the new World of Darkness and have heard now and then that the fights in it can get pretty lethal. Now, I know the rules involved but lack any meaningful experience of the system, so what I'd like to know is just how badly an average mortal will get hurt if you pick a fight. Math is welcome, at least in moderation.

Its more lethaler than the OWoD was.
All the combats I've been in have taken a hand full of rounds, and end with one side dear or very messed up.

Of corse many of the games that i played in had combats that lasted 30+ min with divided dice pools and such.


Say you have an FBI sniper attempting to take out a kidnapper:
4 skill +4 dex +4 for a sniper rifle +1 for a speciality in that gun +3 for willpower +2 for aiming + 2 for 9 again (Approx) = 8 health levels per shot on average. Perhaps more if they have some merits. Armour piercing.


13 levels with the Sniper merit