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kalt
2009-03-09, 08:49 AM
Well last nights session was at best unique... The DM jumped us with 5 drow assasins (I'd think Rogue ~7-8), each had taken potions of bull str, cats grace, and haste, that dropped darkness on the party and proceeded to kill everyone within the span of a single round. So I learned Rogues that can create darkness as an immediate action can get their damage up fairly quickly.

So anyway 2 of the 5 people at the table just got frustrated said f*** it and left. I myself was more than slightly annoyed, but had enough beer in me to just not care that much and I know the other 2 were miffed as well. As a little backstory lets just say TPK's have not been a rare occurance and I think the two that left aren't coming back. So now our party of 5 is down to a party of 3 and I'm a little curious on what people think I should try out. Of the two remaining people one will be a dread necromancer(was a dread necromancer) and the other wants to play a warlock(was a duskblade). So any thoughts? I'm going to have to say lets think optimized because god knows I guess I need it. The other point I find weird is that the DM likes to say players characters are optimized and I have yet to see one hit the table, yet he is most certainly throwing enemies at us that are and it is starting to get a little frustrating. [Rant /end]

Douglas
2009-03-09, 08:59 AM
So you want an optimized character. What kind, and what level?

There's CoDzilla, batman wizard/Incantatrix, Ubercharger, and any number of other possibilities.

Edit: Also, it sounds like your DM needs to read the rules better. Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) works even against darkvision, so you would have had concealment from the drow and you can't sneak attack targets that have concealment.

kamikasei
2009-03-09, 09:07 AM
You're not going to singlehandedly stave off TPK, independent of the builds of the other players. Talk to the DM. Tell him you feel he's running the game too lethally for your tastes, and you simply don't want to get in to an optimization race.

That said, perhaps a crusader for sustainable minor healing?

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-09, 09:16 AM
I agree with Crusader. Core Druid would provide you with a meat shield in the form of a companion if you didn't want to be a melee warrior. To be fair, I can see why the other players cleared off; it sounds like the DM intended to get a TPK.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-09, 09:21 AM
Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. The goal shouldnb't be to optimize enough to win encounters, the goal should be to optimize enough to survive them. Something like going Necropolitan or something for the Undead type, grabbing Wizard levels for Celerity and Contingency, and building off of that to ensure that you never die.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 09:25 AM
For Dread Necro & Warlock, I only see one right choice: Druid. Druid 20. That'll make you a Panzerwagen x 2 just happens to also be a perfectly capable controller & divinist & world annihilator & sneak; just what the party needs as while Dread Necro can have some toys, they're pretty fragile. Best of all, PHB only, no work required. Although Natural Bond, Greenbound Summoning (although you're about to reach Rashemi Elemental Summoning-levels now), Frozen Wildshape & Nightbringer Initiate couldn't hurt.

Boosted AC, Sneak-skills (to go with your superb Spot/Listen/Survival), insanely awesome summons, Cryohydra Wildshape for melee & a bunch of offensive spells (Enervation, anyone?) sounds solid. The only thing you're missing is Trapfinding (which is a pretty big problem looking at your party & by the sound of your DM); Summon Elemental Reserve Feat could help, but it doesn't sound like your DM is pulling punches which might mean that triggering a trap from afar is just as big a problem as stepping on it. That leaves you with either burning a feat on it (take the feat "Planar Touchstone" [PlH] - choose "Catalogues of Enlightenment" as your site, which grants you a Domain Granted Power - pick Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) or dipping a level of Ninja for free Wis to AC, Sudden Strike & Trapfinding - you'd still either need to buy ranks cross class or pick Able Learner though (most likely the latter).

Best would be if one of the other tools did something useful in that regard though. Then again, since you're the only sneak and the only character with decent spot in the party along with the only decent frontliner, chances are you'd be in the front.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-09, 09:37 AM
while Dread Necro can have some toys, they're pretty fragile.Uh, no. It's pretty easy to have your monsters with +6 hp/HD as a DN, and you can be animating stuff with 2x your CL in HD. At level 7 that's 175 HP. That's anything but fragile.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-09, 09:38 AM
The Warlock could take Summon Swarm as an Invocation for trap disarming.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 09:47 AM
Uh, no. It's pretty easy to have your monsters with +6 hp/HD as a DN, and you can be animating stuff with 2x your CL in HD. At level 7 that's 175 HP. That's anything but fragile.

Mmm, true - I didn't account for the means to boost UD HP/HD. That changes things...but not my suggestion; after all, a Druid is everything else too.

Person_Man
2009-03-09, 09:58 AM
Several things:

You cannot be attacked if your enemy does not have line of sight. You can avoid line of sight by using burrow or earth glide or something similar, and tremorsense to see. The is generally referred to as a mole build, and it's been optimized on various threads.

Similarly, your enemy has no reason to attack you if they're not aware of your presence. So Hide in Plain Site + Darkstalker + high Hide/Move Silently means that you won't be attacked (unless they use an area of attack ability, and you're just caught up in it, or you attack them and reveal your presence).

If your DM is big into ambushes, then you need a high Initiative and Spot/Listen checks. Consider a Dex/Wis build, like a Psychic Warrior or Swordsage. Keep an eye out for items and spells and whatnot that boost these.

In terms of build, I'd need to know your ECL and books available to be of any real help.

kalt
2009-03-09, 10:13 AM
Well the drow could see through their own darkness through one of the feats they had (I believe it is in DotU). The dread necromancer is in fact fragile, but the things he animates are far from it. He has 2 cloud giants and actually just picked up a large green dragon. He has rod of undead mastery as well and all his feats are centered around his undead that he summons/animates. A druid is what I was originally leaning towards as well, but I'd love to see a solid psychic warrior build. Ohh we are 9th level and all books are a go and we can't use flaws. We have a total of 74 points to buy attributes (1 point = 1 point) and this adventure arc goes to 18 but he has a followup adventure that goes to 21. I honestly think he did not realize how effective the assasins would be and by the time he did realize it people were already more than a little pissed.

streakster
2009-03-09, 10:19 AM
May I recommend a Pixie for the Warlock? Bit of LA, but it makes you well-nigh impossible to kill.

kalt
2009-03-09, 10:43 AM
I think that would be a decent idea, but don't know if the DM would allow it. He was already getting pretty whiney with a +2LA so I don't know if a Pixie (at what +4 or something) would fly (go go pun!).

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-09, 10:45 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106541 could give you some Psychic Warrior help (my LA 0 Gnoll would be good for a natural weapon-based build because it already has a bite attack).

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-03-09, 11:47 AM
honestly this sounds like a problem that is going to be solved less by good character build and more by talking to the DM. Even if he didn't intend for them to be that awesome, he could still have salvaged it by having the assassins decide to capture you instead of killing you or even by fudging rolls when he realized that he was going to TPK all of you.

Of course, if he meant to TPK you, then it's pretty clear that there's nothing you could do to get around it, b/c he will likely just build an encounter to defeat your weaknesses and kill you.

I recommend talking to him. If it's the first problem, he may fix it and you won't have to worry about it.

If it's the second problem, you should either a) leave or b) deliberately build the worst character possible (but one that will be moderately fun to play/RP). I recommend a Kobold Sorcerer with 11 Cha and all its stats in Intelligence with high ranks and Skill Focus in Craft: (Rocking Chair). Give him whatever Dex you want and outfit him with a suit of Splint Mail and a Tower Shield. Just go crazy with the RP.

The point of this, of course, is to spite the DM. Then, when you've had your fun, leave.

-JM

kalt
2009-03-09, 02:26 PM
Hmm well I'm not sure I want to spite him because I do quite enjoy the majority of the people I play with. The problem I see now though is that we most certainly lost 2 players and I have a feeling they have absolutely no desire to come back. I guess I could just use some advice with optimization to try to fill the gaping whole that is left. I mean I guess a dread necromancer can put enough hitpoints in front of us to be a quasi meatshield. The warlock i'm up in the air about because if he plays his invocations right it could be really useful. Yet that leaves skill monkey&healer wide open and the healing part I think is pretty vital.

Falling Out
2009-03-09, 02:46 PM
Just a thought...but it seems optimized or not you might be in trouble. It has already been pointed out that the DM broke the RAW to have that happen so even optimizing RAW on your end cannot possibly compare to a DM that a) clearly intends to kill characters and b) is willing to break rules to do so.

Now, this is within the DM's right to take rules as they please....

1) Darkness negates darkvision so concealment and line of sight issues means no sneak attack (or attacks...or at least 50% miss and no sneak attack)

2) Darkness is a Spell-like ability and unless quickened (special feat needed to quicken and needs caster level 10+) it takes a standard action to use

3) Ambush means surprise round which means only 1 standard action allowed - hard to get flanking, cannot move, only 1 attack OR spell-like ability (see above)

So that sounds like 3 rules broken or bent simply to kill players. If he foreshodowed it well and the party stupidly walked into a place they really know they should not have...fine. But otherwise, you really might want to chat with the DM.

Fair is Fair...and when it isn't...?

krossbow
2009-03-09, 02:55 PM
My group had a similiar experience with one of our DMs.


After some issues like that, We basically told him that we had decided to have one of the Player characters move up to DM for the next campaign.






Unfortunately, he of course got infuriated over his demotion and refused to play a player character, but frankly in situations like this you'll have alot more fun if you simply change the DM. If you have a new DM you also might be able to possibly talk one or two of your players that left into coming back.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 03:04 PM
Get Healing Belt [MiC] for everyone to look partially into the Healing, and use Wands of Lesser Vigor. Other than that, pack Scroll of Revivify [SpC] or two; much cheaper than actual revival, and no levels lost to boot. But yea, Druid sounds like it hits the sweet spot. It has decent skills (I do suggest high Int one though and probably using feats to expand your skill list to properly cover the monkey role), is a great frontliner and packs superb offensive and defensive spellcasting to boot, and comes with a free Fighter.

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-03-09, 03:40 PM
I wouldn't say automatically that the DM is out to kill the PCs, but I would suggest that it's possible. It's also possible that he forgot how those rules work. I for one would not have remembered off-hand that you only get a standard action during a surprise round, nor that Drow can neither see in Darkness nor cast it the way it was used. Thus, without looking those things up, I could see how the DM might have accidentally made the encounter much too deadly.

On the other side of that, however, it is the DM's responsibility to realize when he's made a mistake like that and own up to it, either by adjusting the encounter (fudging an attack roll or two to allow the PCs a chance to fight) or just out-and-out apologizing and hitting the undo button or somesuch. Ultimately, if the DM didn't mean to kill you, he should be willing to fix the problem that led to him killing you (and, if he's willing to admit that his mistake shouldn't happen, possibly un-killing you).

That's why you need to have a conversation with the DM. B/c if the DM is trying to kill you, then you may need to switch DMs (since you like your group). It's one thing to make your level 10 party fight a CR 11 monster just to challenge them and see if they can pull it out, but its another entire to have them fight a Tarrasque or something from which they have no reasonable chance of victory. If the party has no chance, its either railroading or something has gone wrong.

-JM

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't say automatically that the DM is out to kill the PCs, but I would suggest that it's possible. It's also possible that he forgot how those rules work. I for one would not have remembered off-hand that you only get a standard action during a surprise round, nor that Drow can neither see in Darkness nor cast it the way it was used. Thus, without looking those things up, I could see how the DM might have accidentally made the encounter much too deadly.

Meh, it may just be that the party lacks Spot. Both the things they normally lack were available as feats for Drow in Drow of the Underdark; swift Darkness & seeing in Darkness. The party wasn't outmuscled, it was hit in a soft spot. That might happen when a party has a soft spot. Even just Listening Lorecall on (second level 10 min/level spell, easy enough to keep online all the time) would've given them Blindsight thus denying the Drow the surprise round (you can charge as a standard action provided that you're limited to standard action and if they had even Light Weapon Pounce, that's all it takes for a full attack on the surprise round).

kalt
2009-03-09, 04:14 PM
Yes we did have a certain soft spot in that point. I also believe that they did have the two feats you were talking about. It wasn't even so much that they had those feats alone is that they were fully buffed with some nasty potions (haste, cats grace, bull strength). One problem was that I had played a druid and he cried cheese so i switched and now I get hit with this crap.:smallmad: I'm a little upset that it looks like it, atleast partially, wrecked his campaign which was pretty fun.

I'm certain the DM did plan the encounter to be challenging, but I don't think he designed it to be impossible and now everyone is paying for it. So if you had to fill out the rest of the party what would you recommend?

Skaven
2009-03-09, 06:05 PM
Sounds like the problem lies with your DM and not you in anyway.

Really, from that little story alone, I can tell it doesnt matter what you are going to play, and the more thought you put into your character, the more disappointed you will be when you die.. again.

kalt
2009-03-09, 06:12 PM
yes I'd tend to agree, but I guess what I'm asking is now since we are down to 3 and we have a warlock and a dread necromancer what do you think would be the best thing to fill the gap. I'm just trying to make it managable and you are correct it was entirely the DM's fault and I think he gets that now, though sadly we are 2 down.

krossbow
2009-03-09, 06:24 PM
make that druid again. If he cries foul again, tell him that as long as his NPCs use non-core feats, you have no issues using a druid.

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-09, 06:33 PM
If Pixie Warlock is out, who about trying a Karsite Dragonfire Adept? The goal of this build is to maximize every defense possible. A Karsite (ToM) has SR equal to a drow, all the advantages of a human (free feat and skill points), and the ability to heal when it absorbs a spell. Best of all it starts proficient with Medium armor, and since humanoids with any armor proficiency automatically get Shield Proficiency, you're automatically equipped to use a Tower Shield.

Invocations do suffer ACF, but it's not a problem if you pick 24-hour long buffs from your Draconic Invocation list. Dragonbreath is supernatural and doesn't trigger Spell resistance, so rest easy as you superheat your drow assassin friends into melty little puddles.

In short, you'll be able to max out your AC, take advantage of the nice saving throws DFA's get, get relevant ability bonuses with no negatives and be ready to pick up the best 24 hour duration flight abilities anywhere. All while pumping out area damage every round from a safe distance, covered by a tower shield you never have to drop or lower. :smallsmile:

Skaven
2009-03-09, 06:34 PM
In that case I would personally go for something either

a, Big and tough that can soak up hits and deal them. Probably a Barbarian or Fighter. I'm fond of Minotaur's for this role. that's just me though, heh. Read one too many Kaz novels.

or

b, Something that can evade hits and use skills. Probably an AC optimised Rogueish build.

kalt
2009-03-09, 06:42 PM
hmm any thoughts on arcane trickster? I've never played one before and was browsing through some books and while my AC wouldn't be great I'd assume they are kinda nasty to pin down.

tyckspoon
2009-03-09, 06:56 PM
Best of all it starts proficient with Medium armor, and since humanoids with any armor proficiency automatically get Shield Proficiency, you're automatically equipped to use a Tower Shield.


This only works if you are (A) using a race with racial hit dice and (B) that race normally wears or is noted as proficient with armor. If you don't have racial hit dice, your proficiencies are by class instead, which does not automatically couple armor and shield proficiencies (although classes that have armor proficiency usually *do* have shield proficiency, there is nothing that forces it- even in the core classes, Rogues can wear light armor but don't have shield proficiency. And Fighters are the only class that gets Tower Shield proficiency as a bonus- it's a separate category from light and heavy shields.)

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 07:14 PM
Sounds like the problem lies with your DM and not you in anyway.

Really, from that little story alone, I can tell it doesnt matter what you are going to play, and the more thought you put into your character, the more disappointed you will be when you die.. again.

Then again, let's not be too harsh; if you're up against the Drow in the underdark, a level appropriate ambush (such as this here) is precisely what you should be expecting...en masse. So I think he's just offering logical, and by the numbers fair challenge that just petered out since the party happened to not be prepared for ambushes in a sitiuation where they definitely should have been (y'know, if drow are to be expected, etc.).

So I'd say the fault lies equally on both sides (of course, this is a conclusion reached through insufficient data to properly analyse all the factors and thus might be way out there; still, I'm a bit shocked by how the forum seems to unanimously judge the DM here when it's fully possible that there was nothing unfair in what he was doing). If it's clearly a lethal campaign and a level-appropriate encounter, no fudging necessary; death is a part of the game.


Arcane Trickster is fine (although I personally vastly prefer Unseen Seer [CMage]; bit less Sneak Attack, but more skillpoints and you need only 1 Rogue-level to enter making you a better caster). For example, Concealment grants you immunity to critical hits and it's easy to acquire through spells. You can also gain auxillary senses through the same means (Blindsight, for example). And it handles the Rogue-crap. You wouldn't tank or buff too much, although Unseen Seer could be made a decent buffer with spell choices (as you can maintain full caster level with Practiced Spellcaster, and get full spells -1 level for the Rogue), but you'd definitely handle the arcane control and skills - and indeed Sneak Attacking if need be.

kalt
2009-03-09, 07:25 PM
hmm that sounds like a decent idea. Would you mind posting a rough build we are 9 going to 18-21. Umm in terms of the encounter I think he knows he screwed up rather royally. For some odd reason he thinks we are optimized when I think we are very far from it. In second darkness drow aren't quite the same as you are thinking, but sorta similar I guess. Neat adventure arc and really i'm not sure if we could have done much to avoid getting pounced like that, but you live you learn I guess, minus 2 people of course. I think total deaths for this adventure are floating right around 8 or so.

Hmm looking that up that seems pretty darn steep losing out on the CL for nondivination spells especially when I figure in the average enemy does have SR of a somewhat decent amount.

Triaxx
2009-03-09, 07:49 PM
Well, the first thing is always to talk to the DM. If he's doing this on purpose, then you should politely explain exactly where you're going to shove the Monster Encyclopedia. (MM 1-5) should he decide not to tone it down and play nice. I'll leave the details to you.

kalt
2009-03-09, 08:57 PM
Well after looking over some classes I think a whispergnome Dragonfire Adept could be pretty fun.

Samb
2009-03-09, 09:42 PM
Lets assume the DM isn't trying to kill you and just sucks at improvising.

If you are short on players the best way to solve this short of getting more player is to go gestalt. You get the best of both classes but you don't get to more actions, so it will turn you 3 PC party into effectively a 5 party.

Need a tank? fighter/cleric is prolly the best combo around. Other combos are fighter/psiwarrior for psionic body and improved toughness--> lots of HP, loads of feats. If you don't need that many feats (yeah right) fighter/mage or sorcerer is the best gish around.

Just remember to tell your DM that gestalt is in place because you guys don't have enough players and that it is NOT for NPCs.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 10:05 PM
Hmm looking that up that seems pretty darn steep losing out on the CL for nondivination spells especially when I figure in the average enemy does have SR of a somewhat decent amount.

That's where Practiced Spellcaster comes in; it mitigates the adjustment beautifully allowing you to cast precisely at your character level (Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 10 means 4 lost levels, precisely as much as Practiced Spellcaster adds). The build would be simple:

Generic Race Rogue 1/Wizard 4 (or 5 if you want Spontaneous Divination)/Unseen Seer 10/Rest Does Not Matter

Race: Human gets you the best skill list through Able Learner though so that's probably that.

Feats: Pick up Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard and Able Learner (if Human). Beyond that, it's all open; Darkstalker for your stealth skills, mayhap? Quicken Spell, most certainly later on. Extend Spell could see some use (although level 9 means you can sleep without it). Nymph's Kiss [BoED] for extra Cha-base and skills? Chain Spell [CArc] for quick mass buffs & dispels? Craven for a bit of extra Sneak Attack damage... If you're really into that Ray Sneak Attack thing, entering Spellwarp Sniper and picking up Point Blank Shot (prerequisite to do so) is a fine plan, provided you've got Able Learner.

Skills: You've got a lot of wiggle room and the entire Rogue-list to play with so go to town; just don't forget to max Concentration (Spellcraft is also a good idea) and you're good.

Samakain
2009-03-10, 12:11 AM
make like the other two players and book it, your DM sounds like a self serving ass who is doing it for his own aggrandizement and not to provide an entertaining game for players : \ . Bastards like that bug the crap outta me.

yes i know i'm not helping but as said earlier, this story is just going to repeat itself when the douche needs another ego trip to make him feel better : \

Sa

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-10, 02:50 AM
This only works if you are (A) using a race with racial hit dice and (B) that race normally wears or is noted as proficient with armor. If you don't have racial hit dice, your proficiencies are by class instead, which does not automatically couple armor and shield proficiencies (although classes that have armor proficiency usually *do* have shield proficiency, there is nothing that forces it- even in the core classes, Rogues can wear light armor but don't have shield proficiency. And Fighters are the only class that gets Tower Shield proficiency as a bonus- it's a separate category from light and heavy shields.)

So, you're arguing that you don't get the traits of a type unless you have at least one Racial Hit Die? I've never heard that rule before. Wouldn't that mean that Pixies with class levels lack low-light vision (racial trait and they have no HD) and do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe? I really don't think that makes much sense.

Or contrarily, are you arguing that a Karsite can never take advantage of their racial armor and weapon proficiencies, because they only apply if you have racial hit die and class level armor/weapon/shield proficiencies have priority? In that case, I would argue that line of reasoning leads to elven wizards also being unable to use their long swords or longbows for the same reason.

As for the Shield proficiency, if this were a feat you were being granted I'd agree. Tower Shield Proficiency is a separate feat from the normal proficiency feat. However a proficiency granted by type or class is a discrete entity from Feat granted proficiency. In every case when describing armor and shield proficiencies by class or type the RAW goes out of it's way to explicitly state when a granted shield proficiency does not include Tower Shields, and in this case it does not exclude them. So I cannot see a reason why it shouldn't apply, but many reasons why it should.

kalt
2009-03-10, 08:28 AM
So I think I'm going to have to ask if I can pull the Druid back out of retirement. Looking at the party we are now lacking divine and atleast partial meatshield. I can't help but think that this would cover most of the bases.

woodenbandman
2009-03-10, 09:02 AM
There are a few things you can do with your party to increase your versatility. For that warlock, tell him that Eldritch Disciple is by no means out of his reach, and it's a pretty awesome class. Your Dread Necro can get everyone healed with his Tomb Tainted Soul healing. He can also create an infinite buffer between you and your enemies with his cool skeletons if he optimizes his turning properly.

If you get the Warlock to go Eldritch Disciple you'll have a bit of divine casting which can be good, so you can take up a secondary divine casting role (because medium divine casting x2 ~= full divine casting). Maybe go Ruby Knight Vindicator, Seeker of the Misty Isle, or even just Chameleon. You'll probably want to go 'Vindicator, because they're the most versatile divine meleeist that I know, between their paladin-like smiting maneuvers, eventual 9th level divine spells, and extra swift actions to use with Law/Travel devotion, which you should definitely obtain through some method. Your domains should be either Planning and Undeath if you go for DMM persist, or Travel and Undeath if you go for DMM quicken, or Travel and some other domain like War which will improve your combat ability.

I have to say though that your DM did something of a **** move, there. I think I'd have thrown a less challenging ambush at you first so that you expect it, THEN bring the big guns to bear. I'm not sure he meant to be a ****, he could've just made a mistake, but if this is normal behavior, then I suggest you try and replace him as a DM.

kalt
2009-03-10, 09:44 AM
Yes the DM was a bit of a douche that's for sure and now we all are paying for it even with just attitude alone. Eldritch disciple would be a pretty neat role for the warlock to play I think but I have no idea what he wants to do with his character. A RKV would be a pretty cool character to play and I haven't tried that one yet either. The dread necromancer is fairly optimized I'd say because he has focused on just animating and turning alone. I am a little worried about the skill monkey and just overall arcane/divine diversity role though. I know a lock can play a decent face with beguiling influence.

Khanderas
2009-03-10, 10:18 AM
I agree with Crusader. Core Druid would provide you with a meat shield in the form of a companion if you didn't want to be a melee warrior. To be fair, I can see why the other players cleared off; it sounds like the DM intended to get a TPK.
Looks like an intended TPK to me as well.
If the players go X levels in "kill anything class", the opponents will be d10 enemies of x+3 levels with supriseround. Repeat until TPK.

The actual OP example mentioned was much like rocks fall everyone dies. Except this time it was "ninjas fall everybody dies". (Dark rogues who attacks in the darkness is ninja enough to me)

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-03-10, 10:27 AM
Beguiler can serve the skill-monkey and arcane caster roles if that interests you. You get an awful lot of the good arcane spells (save-or-sucks) and you get a large number of skill points (and Int as a caster-stat).

I'm not all that familiar with Dread Necro, is it primarily divine or arcane? Warlock is still kinda strange to me (not strange in that i don't like the decision, just strange in that I don't understand all the options it gives you). If DN is more arcane, then Druid seems like a reasonable choice to me.

You can even fill more arcane holes by using Spell Focus (illusion) and Shadow PrCs to use Shadow Evoc/Conj with the Beguiler.

-JM

kalt
2009-03-10, 11:04 AM
Now a shadowcraft mage I think might be an interesting idea. The dread necromancer is like a super focused necromancer with a spell list that leaves a whole lot to be desired. A beguiler is another thought. A Druid PC I think would be good as well, but if I could sucker the DM into NPC'ing a cleric the shadowcraft mage is more my style.

tyckspoon
2009-03-10, 12:06 PM
Or contrarily, are you arguing that a Karsite can never take advantage of their racial armor and weapon proficiencies, because they only apply if you have racial hit die and class level armor/weapon/shield proficiencies have priority? In that case, I would argue that line of reasoning leads to elven wizards also being unable to use their long swords or longbows for the same reason.


It's this. Because the Type description does specifically state that class-based proficiency overrides the type-based proficiency. Essentially, I parse this
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class as meaning "if you have a character class, ignore the rest of this paragraph." Including the bit about shields. It's certainly the intent of the rule, despite there being multiple ways to interpret the text. And it wouldn't apply to an Elf's bonus proficiencies, because those are from race and not type and (more importantly) contain no reference to anything overriding or negating them. Racial proficiencies are just bonuses; type proficiencies are what you have if you don't have anything else- IE, you have no class level, which means racial hit dice instead.

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-10, 02:40 PM
... And it wouldn't apply to an Elf's bonus proficiencies, because those are from race and not type and (more importantly) contain no reference to anything overriding or negating them. ...

Karsite weapon, armor and shield are from race as well. It's just that the question of whether or not their medium armor proficiency includes shield proficiency is answered in the humanoid type, and not specifically the Karsite text.


Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.


You will note the bolded section, since (I believe?) we are in agreement that at the very least Karsites do have Medium Armor proficiency, even if they have character classes and no Racial HD. Nothing about the first sentence negates the rest of the paragraph. If a Karsite is proficient with armor because of race, then logically they are proficient with shields.

Samb
2009-03-10, 03:05 PM
Go gestalt!!! You will enjoy not having to worry about being less specialized when you multiclass and you can increase your party effectviness by 50%. If your DM is as open to optomized PCs as he claims then he would allow this.

kalt
2009-03-10, 08:59 PM
Okay well I have talked to the DM and already have this character approved. I think I am going to go play a shadowcraft mage. Well this seems like a prime class to take a focuses spellcaster for, but what the heck do I ban. I mean I have shadow conjuration so do I really ban Conjuration?! That sounds so blasphemous it was hard to type :smalleek: I mean typically I'd be thinking necromancy, enchantment, and evocation but I'm just not sure with shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Some advice would be great.

Eldariel
2009-03-10, 09:03 PM
You have the correct list. There aren't really other options unless you get the other party members to handle Dispelling, in which case you can rid yourself of Abjuration saving Enchantment/Necromancy. Evocation is completely replaced by Shadowcraft Mage. Conjuration is unfortunately only partially so you cannot really ban it even with SCM.

kalt
2009-03-12, 01:15 PM
So my DM contacted me last night and requested that I try out a Dual progression (Divine/Arcane) class. Well problem is, I have never done this before or even kind of attempted it. Most of our party is evil so an Ur-Priest(the only arcane/divine that I can think of atm) might not be out of the question. How good are these type of characters to actually play in anyones experience? I know from a theory point at level 20 they can be nasty, but how about until then? Can someone give me a rough build with feats: all books included: level 9-21 or so. I really appreciate the help.

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-12, 06:47 PM
So my DM contacted me last night and requested that I try out a Dual progression (Divine/Arcane) class. Well problem is, I have never done this before or even kind of attempted it. Most of our party is evil so an Ur-Priest(the only arcane/divine that I can think of atm) might not be out of the question. How good are these type of characters to actually play in anyones experience? I know from a theory point at level 20 they can be nasty, but how about until then? Can someone give me a rough build with feats: all books included: level 9-21 or so. I really appreciate the help.

Name: "Glaivelock Disciple of Hellfire"
Build: Pixie
Starting Ability Scores: STR -4, DEX +8, CON +0, INT +6, WIS +4, CHA +6
Cheese Points: 2
Minimum Playable Level: 5
Power Break: 6

{table=head]ECL | Right Class | BAB | Warlock | Cleric | Skill Pts | Feats | Ability Increase | Special abilities
1 | Level Adjustment | +0 | | | | Flaw: Slow | |
2 | Level Adjustment | +0 | | | | Flaw: Vulnerable | |
3 | Level Adjustment | +0 | | | | +Dodge, Weapon Finesse | |
4 | Level Adjustment | +0 | | | | +Flyby Attack,Darkstalker | |
5 | Cloistered Cleric | +.75 | | 1st | 24 | Su Trans(Eld. Blast) | | Cleric Spellcasting, Turn or rebuke undead
6 | Warlock | +1.5 | 1st | | 4 | | | Warlock Invocations, Eldritch Blast
7 | Warlock | +2.25 | 2nd | | 4 | Practiced Spellcaster | | Detect Magic at will
8 | Cloistered Cleric | +3 | | 2nd | 6 | | Dexterity +1 |
9 | Cloistered Cleric | +3.75 | | 3rd | 6 | | |
10 | Eldritch Disciple | +4.5 | 3rd | | 2 | Travel Devotion | | Gift of the Divine patron I
11 | Eldritch Disciple | +5.25 | 4th | 4th | 2 | | |
12 | Eldritch Disciple | +6 | 5th | 5th | 2 | | Dexterity +1 |
13 | Eldritch Disciple | +6.75 | 6th | 6th | 2 | Empower SLA | | Gift of the Divine Patron II
14 | Eldritch Disciple | +7.5 | 7th | 7th | 2 | | | Eldritch Spellweave
15 | Hellfire Warlock | +8.25 | 8th | | 4 | | | Hellfire Blast +2d6
16 | Hellfire Warlock | +9 | 9th | | 4 | Maximize SLA | Dexterity +1 | Hellfire Blast +4d6, Hellfire Infusion, Resist Fire 10
17 | Hellfire Warlock | +9.75 | 10th | | 4 | | | Hellfire Blast +6d6, Hellfire Shield
18 | Eldritch Disciple | +10.5 | 11th | 8th | 2 | | |
19 | Eldritch Disciple | +11.25 | 12th | 9th | 2 | Quicken SLA | | Gift of the divine patron III
20 | Eldritch Disciple | +12 | 13th | 10th | 2 | | Dexterity +1 |
Ttl | | +12 | 13th | 10th | 72 | | |
[/table]

Offense: While not as strictly powerful as a pure warlock or cleric this build is still a potent adversary at range, but especially in melee. Eldritch Glaive and Eldritch Chain are chosen when they become useful and they make it easy to spread around 6d6 Eldritch+6d6 Hellfire damage to multiple targets in a fashion that is almost impossible to avoid. Access to clerical buff spells including the Big Three along with Pixie SLA's make this build feel almost like a spontaneous caster.

Also noteworthy is the effect of using all three of this builds 3/day SLA Metamagic's all in one round as applied to the Eldritch Glaive. Assuming Divine Power is active and all eight touch attacks land the resulting damage totals 288 + 72d6 (half of which is Eldritch and the other half Hellfire, neither of which has a RAW resistance value.)

Defense: Pixie is king here. With their super Dexterity adding to AC and Reflex saves, greater invisibility at will as a free action, native Flight 60', DR 10/cold iron, and 15+class level SR it's tough to find an attack they don't have some kind of defense against. Even making a melee attack of any kind is dangerous: Eldritch Shield lets this build launch a 12d6 reprisal as an immediate action. Stealth is also good, with Darkstalker letting you approach foes countering invisibility with blind-sight, scent or other super-senses.

This build like many pixie warlock builds revolves around the concept of making yourself tough, but not impossible to hit. At the same time, it has an easy time connecting with it's primary attack in virtually all cases, even if the damage is not phenomenal.

Weaknesses: Fortitude save for this build is very, very low. Pixies aren't penalized in their Constitution so it's recommend extra attention is spent here to compensate. It also suffers from the curse of all Mystic Theurge builds, in that it gives up too much to be adequate at two things at once. It also lacks a cheesy method to prevent Con damage from using Hellfire, but that's easily dealt with via restoration magic or items.


In general, Mystic Theurge type builds are bad, and non-optimal. In D&D spellcasting increases in power exponentially, so a Cleric 10/Wizard 10 is not the equal of a Wizard 12, let alone a Wizard 20. YMMV, of course. If you do use one, be sure the synergy of both abilities and action is absolutely perfect.

Thajocoth
2009-03-12, 07:13 PM
You can probably get the other players back if someone else is running the campaign, but you might lose the DM in the process. Might I recommend suggesting round-robin style DMing? This is where everyone takes turns DMing. The other 2 might come back in that case too... Or, at worst, skip every 6th session.

On similar, irrelevant notes from campaigns I've been in:
I had a TPK once. This GM has a tendency to push the limits of the party... Not trying to kill us, but trying to come very very close. He had a path magically open for only 24 hours, and room after room of monsters within. We could leave at any point, and before the last battle that we were in, of 5 people, 2 were against continuing and 2 were for it, and the Paladin flipped a coin. Now poor Moorale's head (my Dwarven Fighter) is on a Sahuagin's pike. He died with no regrets.

I've also nearly TPKed a party with assassins once. The party all slept in seperate rooms. They were level 3. 2 level 2 Elven Archers blocked the stairs while 3 level 8 Doppleganger Assassins snuck in with intent to coup de grace. I only did that because I knew the trancing Elf and Drow would see their attackers coming, but the Drow actually failed their perception check and the Elf waited just long enough to scream that the Genasi was 1 round from coup. My plan if I ever TPK is to declare the damage nonlethal and capture them. I already have a place in the world they'd wake up... Though I guess I can only use that once.