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Saintjebus
2009-03-10, 11:44 AM
So, I keep hearing about nightsticks, and I don't have Libris Mortis. I know they are supposedly very cheesy, but what do they do?

Riffington
2009-03-10, 11:50 AM
They give you more turn attempts (4).
If you assume that you can have multiple nightsticks and that each will give you more turn attempts, then anything that makes use of turn attempts becomes much cheaper. For example, divine metamagic.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-03-10, 11:55 AM
they give you extra turn undead attempts per day. This is used to power divine metamagic, which allows you to cast metamagiced spells without using higher spell slots but it costs you turn attempts. With a lot of sticks, that means a lot of free metamagic.

Aquillion
2009-03-10, 12:08 PM
Divine Metamagic lets you burn daily turn attempts to fuel metamagic.

Nightsticks (if you allow them to stack) let you buy as many daily turning attempts as you want, fairly cheaply, using just some gold.

So, in effect, a DMM cleric with nightsticks can use as much metamagic as they want, nearly for free -- such as Persistent Spell, which normally has a prohibitively high metamagic cost, but with thist trick lets them make buffs last all day. This results in clerics with all-day persistent Divine Power, basically giving them full BAB. Plus, well, all their other buffs, too -- buffs meant to last for about 30 seconds, which together make them a better fighter than the fighter, all the time. While still having full Cleric casting with the ability to add unlimited metamagic to it if they want.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-10, 12:26 PM
As the others have said, they grant anyone who can use it 4 more Turn/Rebuke Undead attempts per day. While that isn't too bad by itself (though it is basically a feat you can grab with a minor expenditure of GP), the problem comes when you stack them, which is generally (I believe) accepted as both RAW and super-cheesy.

So if they are ever allowed in a game, the DM will either rule that they don't stack, or it's going to be a higly optimized, power game where cheese will be needed to survive.

Person_Man
2009-03-10, 01:32 PM
It's also worth mentioning that Nightsticks perfectly demonstrate one of the weakest parts of 3.5, and the strongest parts of 4E. Resource management. In 3.5 every class has a different amount of resources, which can be supplemented by various feats and items, which are very loosely scaled by level and gp. In 4E, everyone has the same number of at will/per encounter/per day powers, feats all grant minor bonuses, and magic items are scaled by level.

Now I prefer 3.5, because I find it far more interesting. But you have to give credit where credit is due.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-10, 05:24 PM
To clarify, the cheesiness arises from the wording in the description of the Nightstick, which states that "anyone who possesses the rod" gains the extra Turn/Rebuke Undead uses. This naturally lead to people who carry around 3 or 4 (or more) of them because the only requirement is possessing one, not wielding it.

And in this case, possession in nine tenths of the RAW. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


(I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist. :smalltongue:)

Aquillion
2009-03-11, 12:50 AM
As the others have said, they grant anyone who can use it 4 more Turn/Rebuke Undead attempts per day. While that isn't too bad by itself (though it is basically a feat you can grab with a minor expenditure of GP), the problem comes when you stack them, which is generally (I believe) accepted as both RAW and super-cheesy.

So if they are ever allowed in a game, the DM will either rule that they don't stack, or it's going to be a higly optimized, power game where cheese will be needed to survive.Even then, they're not that bad on their own. One of the odd things about the DMM + Persist + Nightsticks combo is that none of the individual parts are really that broken on their own...

Normally, DMM is very useful but not overpowering. It gives you a use for something that is usually pretty useless (turning attempts), but with the usual number of turning attempts you're not getting much more than you could get out of a few metamagic rods from it.

Persistent Spell is normally too expensive to be very useful.

And Nightsticks? Sure, they replace a feat with a cheap gold cost, but (without DMM or the like) they replace a feat that sucks. Turning is just not very powerful, so (if you're a writer who doesn't know about DMM or other uses for turning attempts), why are you going to worry so much about potentially giving players unlimited turning? You could probably give a cleric the ability to turn undead for free and it still wouldn't be that useful except at really low levels.

It's just when you combine them that you get the silliness...

tyckspoon
2009-03-11, 01:45 AM
To clarify, the cheesiness arises from the wording in the description of the Nightstick, which states that "anyone who possesses the rod" gains the extra Turn/Rebuke Undead uses. This naturally lead to people who carry around 3 or 4 (or more) of them because the only requirement is possessing one, not wielding it.


More technically correct, the cheesiness is because the Nightstick grants you Extra Turning, which is one of the feats that can stack with itself. A requirement to actually hold the rod to make use of the extra turning attempts would just lead to people cycling through pairs of them in hand while going through the morning routine instead of leaving them in the backpack.. DMM: Persist clerics don't really care how they have to use Nightsticks as long as the method doesn't screw with the few minutes or so of casting they need to get set up for the day. Other DMM applications (Quicken, Chain, Empower, etc, etc.. you know, the less broken ones) could be hampered by a 'you must wield this object' requirement.

Frosty
2009-03-11, 02:01 AM
I limit 2 Nightsticks per character.

Mark Hall
2009-03-11, 02:10 AM
I don't limit the number of nightsticks a person can carry, but don't allow them to be used for DMM.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-11, 12:15 PM
More technically correct, the cheesiness is because the Nightstick grants you Extra Turning, which is one of the feats that can stack with itself.

Incorrect, although that feat is required to craft one.


Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of that ability per day.

Pirate_King
2009-03-11, 04:02 PM
They could have come up with a better name; I thought this thread was about cudgels used by watchmen.

Fixer
2009-03-12, 06:35 AM
I don't limit the number of nightsticks a person can carry, but don't allow them to be used for DMM.
I just don't allow nightsticks. I don't see them as a sensible item. Positive energy comes from a cleric of a good (or benevolently neutral) diety. How is that going to get stored in 'batteries' for a cheap price? Sure, wizards can do all sorts of crazy things, but divine magic, especially the equivalent of 'turning', is strictly the domain of clerics and divinities. A cleric might be able to make a nightstick if their deity allows them, but I just say the gods say 'no, you have to keep worshiping me to get your positive energy bursts'.

So, no nightsticks for my players. I haven't heard any complaints.