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Crossfiyah
2009-03-10, 12:40 PM
I had a thought that I wanted to run a major quest in a similar vein to the popular DotA game on Warcraft III. It will involve defending a town on three seperate fronts. Anyway, I designed these six monsters to represent six of the heroes in that game, and I want to make sure none of them are over or under-powered. They're all Elites, but they could easily be converted to regular monsters if a non-hero version was desired. Thank you for your commentary,

Pudge, Flesh Golem
Level 12 Elite Brute
Large natural animate (construct)
XP 1,400
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +5; darkvision
Rot (Disease) - aura 2; All creatures that enter or start their turn in the aura take 10 damage and are slowed unless they are immune to disease.
HP 304; Bloodied 152
AC 26; Fortitude 29, Reflex 21, Will 22
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6; can’t shift
Action Points 1
BM - Cleaver (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +16 vs. AC (+18 while bloodied); 2d8 + 5 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
M - Double Attack (standard; at-will)
Pudge makes two cleaver attacks.
M - Golem Rampage (standard; recharge 5, 6)
Pudge moves up to its speed plus 2 and can move through enemies’ spaces, provoking opportunity attacks as normal. When it enters a creature’s space (ally or enemy), Pudge makes a cleaver attack against that creature. The creature remains in its space, and Pudge must leave the space after it attacks. Pudge must end its rampage in an unoccupied space.
M - Dismember (standard, recharge 5, 6)
Targets restrained creatures. +16 vs. AC (18 while bloodied); 4d8 + 5 damage, and ongoing 10 damage until the creature is no longer restrained.
R - Meat Hook (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10; +16 vs. Reflex (+18 while bloodied); 2d8 + 5 damage, and the target is pulled to a square adjacent to Pudge and restrained (save ends). Pudge can only have one creature restrained at a time.
Flesh Heap
When Pudge starts his turn in a square in which a creature was previously killed, he can add their corpse to his bulk. Pudge gains +1 to AC and Fortitude, as well as 10 hit points for every creature absorbed.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages —
Str 20 (+11) Dex 7 (+4) Wis 8 (+5)
Con 22 (+12) Int 3 (+2) Cha 3 (+2)'
Equipment cleaver, meathook

Nevermore, Shadow Fiend
Level 11 Elite Artillery
Large elemental humanoid (demon)
XP 1,200
Initiative +11 Senses Perception +14; darkvision
Presence of the Dark Lord aura 10, enemies take a -2 penalty to AC and Fortitude.
HP 180; Bloodied 90
AC 25; Fortitude 23, Reflex 27, Will 25
Immune disease, poison Resist 15 necrotic, 15 variable (2/encounter)
Speed 7
M - Claw (standard; at-will) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 2; +13 vs. AC; 1d8 + 3 necrotic damage,
R - Shadowraze (standard; at-will) ✦ Necrotic
Ranged 5/10/20; +16 vs. Fortitude; Does varying damage depending on the distance from the target, also see necromastery.
1-5: 3d6 + 5 necrotic damage
6-10: 2d8 + 5 necrotic damage
11-20: 2d6 + 5 necrotic damage
C - Requiem of Souls (standard; recharges whenever Nevermore absorbs a soul)
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +16 vs. Fortitude; Nevermore expels the souls he has absorbed, dealing 1d10 + 5 necrotic damage, plus 1d10 necrotic damage for each additional soul released, and the target is slowed and weakened (save ends both). Miss: Half damage.
Necromastery
Whenever one of Nevermore's allies is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, or one of Nevermore's enemies is killed within his line of sight, he can absorb their soul into his being (maximum of 8). For every soul Nevermore absorbs, he deals +1 damage on all attacks. Nevermore starts with 2 souls absorbed.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Common, Abyssal, telepathy 20
Str 14 (+7) Dex 22 (+11) Wis 18 (+9)
Con 18 (+9) Int 14 (+7) Cha 9 (+4)

Mercurial, Spectre
Level 12 Elite Skirmisher
Medium shadow humanoid
XP 1,400
Initiative +14 Senses Perception +8; darkvision
Dispersion aura 2, any enemies within the aura take one-half of any damage taken by Mercurial.
HP 242; Bloodied 121
AC 28; Fortitude 26, Reflex 28, Will 24
Immune fear, charm Resist 15 necrotic
Speed 8
Saving Throws +2
Action Points 1
BM - Whip (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+17 vs. AC; 1d8 + 4 damage, also see desolate.
R - Spectral Dagger (standard; recharge 5, 6)
Ranged 10; +15 vs. Reflex; 1d8 + 4 damage, and the target is slowed (save ends) and marked. While the target is marked, Mercurial can move towards the target without incurring attacks of opportunity. Mercurial gains insubstantial qualities and can move across difficult terrain without penalty while moving towards a marked foe.
C - Haunt (standard; encounter)
Close burst 10, targets all enemies; +13 vs. Will; On a hit, a haunting image of Mercurial appears in a space adjacent to the target. The images have the same statistics as Mercurial, except that they are treated as minions, they have 1 hit point each, they cannot be damaged by a miss, and they may only attack the creature they appeared beside initially. On Mercurial's action, the images move closer to the target if possible and make a basic melee attack, getting the benefit of desolate if applicable. An image offers no experience upon death.
Desolate
Mercurial does an extra 2d8 damage to any target it attacks with its whip when the target has no adjacent allies.
Alignment Evil Languages telepathy 20
Str 20 (+11) Dex 24 (+13) Wis 15 (+8)
Con 17 (+9) Int 14 (+8) Cha 20 (+11)
Equipment whip

Barathrum, Spritbreaker
Level 11 Elite Lurker
Medium natural humanoid
XP 1,200
Initiative +12 Senses Perception +13; darkvision
Empowering Haste aura 5. Allies within the aura gain a +2 move speed bonus. In addition, Barathrum may add the number of spaces moved during a charge to his damage.
HP 180; Bloodied 90
AC 27; Fortitude 30, Reflex 24, Will 22
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 (10 while charging)
Action Points 1
BM - Battleaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+16 vs. AC; 1d10 + 8 damage and the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.
M - Charge of Darkness (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+16 vs. AC; Barathrum must charge as part of this attack; 1d10 + 8 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Barathrum's next turn, pushed 3 squares, and knocked prone.
M - Nether Strike (standard, recharge 5,6) ✦ Weapon
+16 vs. AC; Barathrum shifts up to 6 squares as part of the attack; 2d10+14 damage, and the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.
Combat Advantage
Barathrum deals an extra 3d6 damage with its attacks against any target it has combat advantage against.
Second Wind (standard; encounter) ✦ Healing
Barathrum spends a healing surge and regains 45 hit points. Barathrum gains a +2 bonus to all defenses until the start of his next turn.
Alignment Evil Languages Common
Skills Athletics +19, Stealth +13
Str 28 (+14) Dex 16 (+8) Wis 16 (+8)
Con 18 (+9) Int 9 (+4) Cha 8 (+4)
Equipment battleaxe

Balanar, Night Stalker
Level 12 Elite Soldier
Large shadow humanoid (undead)
XP 1,400
Initiative +11 Senses Perception +11; darkvision
HP 248; Bloodied 124
AC 30; Fortitude 30, Reflex 25, Will 24
Immune disease, fear Resist 15 necrotic
Saving Throws +2
Speed 5 see also hunter in the night
Action Points 1
BM - Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +19 vs. AC; 2d6 + 8 damage.
M - Void (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +17 vs. Fort; 2d6 + 8 damage; If the target is in a zone of darkness, the target is slowed (save ends).
M - Crippling Fear (standard; recharge 4, 5 ,6) ✦ Fear
Reach 2; +17 vs. Will; 2d6 + 8 damage; and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends). If the target is in a zone of darkness, the target is stricken with fear (save ends). Until the fear ends, the target cannot use encounter or daily powers.
C - Darkness (minor; sustain minor; at-will) ✦ Zone
Close burst 2; this power creates a zone of darkness that remains in place until the end of Balanar's next turn. The zone blocks line of sight for all creatures except Balanar. Any creature entirely within the area (except Balanar) is blinded.
Hunter in the Night
Balanar is most at home in the darkness. As such, he can move through zones of darkness without movement cost. Additionally, if he ends his movement in a zone of darkness, he may take an additional standard, move, or minor action.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Abyssal
Str 26 (+14) Dex 16 (+9) Wis 11 (+6)
Con 20 (+11) Int 15 (+8) Cha 14 (+8)

Atropos, Bane Elemental
Level 11 Elite Controller
Large elemental magical beast (psychic)
XP 1,200
Initiative +10 Senses Perception +15; darkvision
HP 234; Bloodied 117
AC 27; Fortitude 27, Reflex 27, Will 27
Immune disease, poison Resist 25 psychic, 25 necrotic
Speed 6
Saving Throws +2
Action Points 1
BM - Slam (standard; at-will)
+16 vs. AC; 1d8 + 5 damage.
BR - Energy Bolt (standard; at-will) ✦ Psychic
+15 vs. Reflex; 2d6 + 5 psychic damage
R - Enfeeble (minor; at-will) ✦ Fear
Ranged 10; +15 vs. Will; The target is weakened (save ends).
R - Brain Sap (standard; recharge 6) ✦ Psychic
Ranged 5; +15 vs. Will; 3d8 + 5 psychic damage, and Atropos can spend a healing surge to regain the same number of hit points.
R - Nightmare (standard; recharge 6) ✦ Psychic
Ranged 5; +15 vs. Will; the target is dazed and takes 10 ongoing psychic damage (save ends). First failed save: The target becomes slowed and dazed (save ends). Second failed save: The target falls unconscious (save ends). The target cannot be attacked by Atropos or his allies until it saves.
R - Fiend's Grip (standard; recharge 6) ✦ Necrotic
Ranged 5; +15 vs. Reflex; On a hit, the target is grabbed by a dark appartion's hand. The hand has the same defenses as Atropos, and Atropos can make a secondary attack each round as a minor action until the target escapes. Secondary Attack: +15 vs. Will; On a hit, the target takes 3d8 + 5 necrotic damage and Atropos steals one of the target's healing surges.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Common, Abyssal
Skills Arcana +15, Religion +15
Str 21 (+10) Dex 21 (+10) Wis 21 (+10)
Con 21 (+10) Int 21 (+10) Cha 21 (+10)

Yakk
2009-03-10, 01:27 PM
So I don't feel like doing it, but I can tell you my method to balance monsters.

It is based on damage budgeting. It lets you compare two creatures.

First, work out the tactics of the creature. A creature can be designed to use bad tactics, or good tactics -- and that can change how the critter balances. (Look in the MM for examples).

The first pass doesn't take into account any status effects. You just work out how much damage the creature could do against AC 14+Level and NAD 12+Level targets over ~6 rounds.

The creature is assumed to be bloodied for 3/6 rounds. For each 'pip' on refresh abilities, you get an extra use of the power. You use action points, naturally.

Powers that are likely to hit more than one target are not credited for all the damage they do -- as doing 10 damage to two targets is worse than doing 20 damage to one. I use the rule of thumb 'full credit for 1 target, then 50% credit for damage to targets beyond the first'. Guess how many targets an area power hits -- blast 2/3 should hit 2 or 3, blast 4/5 should hit 3 or 4. This can depend on the creature's other abilities.

---

Now we get to status effects. The idea here is that we attempt to figure out how much they hinder the players. Work out how many rounds, on average, each status effect lands -- and figure out how much they hinder.

Stunned takes the player out for a round. Dazed about half-takes-out the player. Prone probably weakens the player by about 25%. Immobalized, depending on the anticipated tactics, might be anywhere from 25% to 75%.

Each 'turn' you eat from a player gives you +1 round of lifespan before you die, and fractional after that. To be lazy, just scale your 6 round damage output by this number (but in practice, you should scale the 'typical for your level' damage output instead, as a creature that does no damage but stuns 4 players per round reliably is insanely powerful, yet would show up as a 0 when using the naive approach).

You can compare the damage budget from 6 rounds against the typical HP of a same-level monster. You can also compare it against other similar level monsters.

Elites should be about 1.75x as threatening as same-level non-Elites, and have twice as many HP, and have the small defense boost over a normal critter.

Naturally, this doesn't include everything in the balancing of a monster. But it can pull out a bunch of variables and keep you from accidentally designing a monster that has ridiculous damage output, or has abysmal damage output.

The "status effect" part of this is more jury-rigged and less credible. But it can be better than nothing.

...

As a flavour thing, I'm against buffing Elite Brute AC. Avoid buffing the "weak" defence of an Elite as a general rule, and for a Brute that includes AC. They are supposed to be punching bags for high-damage, low-accuracy powers.

...

Hope that helps.

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-10, 01:37 PM
I had a thought that I wanted to run a major quest in a similar vein to the popular DotA game on Warcraft III. It will involve defending a town on three seperate fronts.

That is a really cool idea. I'll spot check those monsters for balance sanity when I get home, but I wanna hear more about this quest. Are you going to have minions trickling in with the occasional normal monster, followed by one of these big bad elite guys from a random direction - and then a short rest. Rinse repeat?

Crossfiyah
2009-03-10, 02:42 PM
Essentially yes, there will be three fronts, and the party will choose which to attack, and they may battle as many as they choose. If they win the fight without retreating, then the wave is slowed on that front.

It will happen around level 10. A demon-infused Orc named Bel Selkar will be sieging the city because it is home to the statue of Moradin, one of 11 statues across the planes that house a piece of Tharzidun's heart. If they get to the city and break it, the heart piece is freed.

Now, I plan on having NPCs support the heroes on all fronts, and they're going to be assaulted by regular enemies as well as these "demons" on each front as well, with reinforcements every so many rounds.

Suleman
2009-03-11, 10:54 AM
I've been toying with the same idea, I also considered making player character mechanics for them, but I never got around to it. It's a shame that I suck at making monsters, so I have no way to balance them out. These really are just thrown out of a hat, so they are not even remotely balanced.

The one I spent most time thinking about was Mogul Khan, The Axe.

Level ? Elite Brute
Medium natural humanoid, orc (infernal)

Counter Helix
(Melee) Immediate reaction, At-Will, (weapon)
Close Burst 1
Trigger: You are the main target of an attack. Area Of Effect attacks do not count.
Attack: Str vs AC
Damage: 1[W]+Str, ½ con modifier on miss

Berserker's Call
(Melee) Standard, Recharge ?
Closer Burst 2
Attack: Cha vs Will
Effect: All affected targets will attempt to make a basic attack against Mogul Khan on their turn if their turn comes before Mogul Khan's next turn. Mogul Khan gains Resist 10/physical until the beginning of his next turn

Battle Hunger
(Ranged) Standard, Recharge ?
Attack: Cha vs Will
Effect: d6+Cha ongoing psychic damage, save ends. If the target reduces a creature to 0 hp, the effect ends.

Culling Blade
(Melee) Standard, Recharge ?, Weapon
Attack: Str vs Fortitude
Damage: 3[W]+STR damage
If the target is bloodied, Culling Blade will deal maximum damage on hit.

Crossfiyah
2009-03-11, 01:44 PM
Hmm. I would revamp it to be using monster mechanics. I just don't know how efficient the player aspects would work for such a limited creature.

Counter Helix could be an immediate reaction, and you can have Axe make a basic melee attack against any adjacent enemy who attacks him with a melee attack. Ranged attacks too if you wanted, I'm not entirely sure how the actual ability works.

Berserker's call could slide all targets in a close burst to spots adjacent to Axe, mark them, and he can gain resistance of a certain amount until the end of his next turn.

Battle Hunger could do ongoing damage until the target kills something. You could surround him with minions in that case.

Finally, I like what you did with Culling blade. Maybe reword it though. Reduces a creature to its bloodied value. If its bloodied, reduce it to 0 HP.

That'd be what I did at least. He'd be a soldier, of course.

Suleman
2009-03-11, 03:09 PM
Hmm. I would revamp it to be using monster mechanics. I just don't know how efficient the player aspects would work for such a limited creature.

Counter Helix could be an immediate reaction, and you can have Axe make a basic melee attack against any adjacent enemy who attacks him with a melee attack. Ranged attacks too if you wanted, I'm not entirely sure how the actual ability works.

Berserker's call could slide all targets in a close burst to spots adjacent to Axe, mark them, and he can gain resistance of a certain amount until the end of his next turn.

Battle Hunger could do ongoing damage until the target kills something. You could surround him with minions in that case.

Finally, I like what you did with Culling blade. Maybe reword it though. Reduces a creature to its bloodied value. If its bloodied, reduce it to 0 HP.

That'd be what I did at least. He'd be a soldier, of course.
That would make Culling Blade fearsome beyond belief. Especially as a monster ability. I just wanted to make it more powerful against bloodied opponents.
Mmyeess, Berserker's Call could work like that. That's certainly better than my version. The game version prevents the affected enemies from doing anything else, but a mark is a good enough deterrent.
Counter Helix is supposed to be an AoE effect. That's one of its charms. Each attack towards Axe endangers not only you but also your allies. Hmm. Maybe the DnD version could damage Axe's allies as well, making him something of a wild card. Worth thinking about.
After checking the DMG's monster role explanations, I agree, Soldier would fit best. Axe is just known for being one tough cookie, so I figured the Brute's hp would work for him. But, Soldier is more appropriate.

I saw a 4e modification of the Diablo games some time ago on these forums, and that one featured leveling up powers. One possibility would be that the player character had signature powers in addition to his class powers that he could then pick and level up at certain levels. Some normal class features (or perhaps levelling them would need feats? Who knows.) might be cut to make room, but not too many.
For example, leveling up Berserker's call would increase its AoE and/or the amount of damage resistance gained during it. Levelling Counter Helix could improve its damage from unmodified [W] to [W]+Str to Con damage on miss and so on and so forth.
I wrote "in addition to his class powers", largely because playing a character with just four powers could get boring.

Crossfiyah
2009-03-11, 03:46 PM
I see what you mean.

As for Culling Blade, make it an encounter, and its not entirely dissimilar to a power of the Nightwalker.

Suleman
2009-03-12, 04:06 PM
Man, this topic really fired me up. Many dota elements could be translated rather well to 4e. Of course, stuff like +stat items are out of the question, and some skills, like summoning ones, can't be done in the exact same way.
A good way to begin is by dividing the heroes to monster roles. These are not all, of course.

Lurker
Broodmother, Stealth Assassin, Lifestealer, Templar Assassin, (Phantom Lancer), Goblin Techies, Nerubian Assassin, (Nerubian Weaver), Bounty Hunter

Artillery
Lord Of Olympia, Priestess Of The Moon, Tormented Soul, Lightning Revenant, Dwarven Sniper, Slayer, Death Prophet,

Controller
(Keeper Of The Light), Crystal Maiden, Silencer, Faerie Dragon

Skirmisher
Phantom Assassin, Bone Fletcher, (Phantom Lancer), Anti-Mage, (Nerubian Weaver)

Soldier
Chaos Knight, Sacred Warrior,

Brute
Skeleton King, Rogue Knight, Doombringer, Pandaren Brewmaster, Centaur Warchief, Tidehunter, Magnataur

Leader
Vengeful Spirit, (Keeper Of The Light), Shadow Priest, Warlock,

???
Treant Protector (Lurker, Leader, Brute!)