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newbDM
2009-03-10, 03:28 PM
I currently have a small-sized kobold rogue/fighter PC, who specializes in using his three natural weapons to sneak attack.

He is a stealthy character, but once he has popped out he is exposed for the rest of the encounter.

Can the pros here please suggests some fun tricks, items, etc to help him get flanking and/or sneak attacks on enemies?

So far he has been trying to flank whenever possible, and that is about it. He is also being used more and more to scout ahead of the group, which is leaving him more and more without a flank buddy.

Any ideas would be appreciated. Those that would be especially koboldy in nature would exceptionally preferred! :smallbiggrin:


All I have heard about so far are:

I believe the Blinking ability allows you to get your sneak attacks. is this true? If so, what different ways can I go about this?
I keep thinking about the idea of buying and/or catching an aggressive animal or beast to train as a flanking buddy. Is this a doable idea at all?
Perhaps mix the two ideas above, and train a blink dog as a mount?




As always, thanks in advance for any help!

RTGoodman
2009-03-10, 03:45 PM
I believe the Blinking ability allows you to get your sneak attacks. is this true? If so, what different ways can I go about this?

Er, well, the ring of blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking) is probably a good bet. :smallwink: It's a little expensive but otherwise it works. For best results, pick up that feat that allows you to ignore magical miss chances (Pierce Magical Concealment, I think, from CArc) so your own attacks won't miss because of the blinking.

Otherwise, there are actually a TON of ways to get sneak attack. As long as your opponent is denied their Dex bonus to AC, you're golden, and there are a ton of ways to do that via spells from friendly spellcasters, stealth, fear effects, some mundane items I think (the net), magical and alchemical items, and all sorts of other stuff. Take a look at the Condition Summaries (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) in the SRD and see how many of those conditions can result in SA, and then just find ways to achieve them.


I keep thinking about the idea of buying and/or catching an aggressive animal or beast to train as a flanking buddy. Is this a doable idea at all?

The Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat is what you're looking for.


Perhaps mix the two ideas above, and train a blink dog as a mount?

Maybe, but you really don't have to do TOO much work to get SA. Flanking with another party member is just as easy and much less expensive (either via money or feats) than finding a flanking animal buddy, and as long as you have a caster with web, sleep, black tentacles, grease, or any other number of spells, you should be good.

Leewei
2009-03-10, 08:56 PM
Blind opponents generally lose Dexterity (exceptions: Blindsight, Sightless, Blind Fight feat, Uncanny Dodge).
Opponents moving faster than 2x (exceptions: Run feat, Uncanny Dodge).
Opponents making Balance checks (exceptions: Balance 5+ ranks, Uncanny Dodge).
Opponents that are paralyzed or have a stat reduced to 0.
Opponents you have successfully feinted.
Opponents flat-footed due to spells such as distract assailant (exception: Uncanny Dodge).
Opponents flat-footed due to not acting before you in the first round of combat (exception: Uncanny Dodge).

newbDM
2009-03-10, 09:02 PM
Otherwise, there are actually a TON of ways to get sneak attack. As long as your opponent is denied their Dex bonus to AC, you're golden, and there are a ton of ways to do that via spells from friendly spellcasters, stealth, fear effects, some mundane items I think (the net), magical and alchemical items, and all sorts of other stuff.

Is there a list somewhere of said items, alchemical items, magic items, and other ways such as friendly spells? WotC has so many books to shift through.

And how does a fear affect grant a sneak attack?



Er, well, the ring of blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking) is probably a good bet. :smallwink: It's a little expensive but otherwise it works. For best results, pick up that feat that allows you to ignore magical miss chances (Pierce Magical Concealment, I think, from CArc) so your own attacks won't miss because of the blinking.

Oh, there is a chance that your own attacks will miss? I never knew that. Kind of makes it useless.

Thanks for the info, though!



The Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat is what you're looking for.

Thank you for linking me to that!

I thought those articles disappeared with WotC's 3.x purging.



Maybe, but you really don't have to do TOO much work to get SA. Flanking with another party member is just as easy and much less expensive (either via money or feats) than finding a flanking animal buddy, and as long as you have a caster with web, sleep, black tentacles, grease, or any other number of spells, you should be good.

Well, I really can not depend on my party for help in that department.

The other rogue sort of has it out for him too boot.

And again, he is functioning more and more like a scout, so he will be on his own more and more often.

tigerhawkvok
2009-03-10, 09:09 PM
Take the "Improved Feint" feat and train some bluff. Improved feint lets you feint as a move-action, which is a bluff vs. sense motive check. If you successfully feint, then your opponent is rendered flat-footed (denied dex bonus to AC) and is susceptible to sneak attacks. I've found this to be far and away the best way to pull it off.

Also, a generous DM might let you interpret haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) as giving you a second move action (or move action in addition to full-round), which makes boots of haste invaluable. However, this is DM dependent.

newbDM
2009-03-10, 09:26 PM
Take the "Improved Feint" feat and train some bluff. Improved feint lets you feint as a move-action, which is a bluff vs. sense motive check. If you successfully feint, then your opponent is rendered flat-footed (denied dex bonus to AC) and is susceptible to sneak attacks. I've found this to be far and away the best way to pull it off.

Also, a generous DM might let you interpret haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) as giving you a second move action (or move action in addition to full-round), which makes boots of haste invaluable. However, this is DM dependent.

Thank you for the information.

I did know about that method, but the problem is that he is based on a full-attack claw+claw+bite sneak attack routine. At best with that feat I can feint as a move action, which means he will still only get one attack.

I will look into that haste item to see if I can still get the full attack routine, though. Is that a regularly debated item?

Person_Man
2009-03-10, 09:27 PM
Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

monty
2009-03-10, 10:38 PM
Take the "Improved Feint" feat and train some bluff. Improved feint lets you feint as a move-action, which is a bluff vs. sense motive check. If you successfully feint, then your opponent is rendered flat-footed (denied dex bonus to AC) and is susceptible to sneak attacks. I've found this to be far and away the best way to pull it off.

/obligatory
http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg
One attack a round won't cut it. There's lots of better ways to get SA (see Person_Man's list).

tigerhawkvok
2009-03-10, 11:03 PM
/obligatory
http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg
One attack a round won't cut it. There's lots of better ways to get SA (see Person_Man's list).

There's only so far "relying on the optimal party makeup" will take you. Feint + good careful use of positioning is reliable and doesn't need anything other than "another random party member". Invisibility, spells up the wazzo, etc, are all grand but often rather complicated. The OP was looking at items to pull this off -- if you can't get a dedicated flanker, then this feat is the next best thing. I stand by it.

Anyway, he's already multiclassing, how much of an XP penalty do you want! Though probably half of my gripe is all the side-books -- 3/4 of the DMs I've played with don't allow any but the core books, so its definitely one of those things I work within (though this leads to other flexibilities, such as half of them [and myself when I DM] treating Haste as giving an extra move action). Though the dog idea is pretty good.

monty
2009-03-10, 11:19 PM
There's only so far "relying on the optimal party makeup" will take you. Feint + good careful use of positioning is reliable and doesn't need anything other than "another random party member". Invisibility, spells up the wazzo, etc, are all grand but often rather complicated. The OP was looking at items to pull this off -- if you can't get a dedicated flanker, then this feat is the next best thing. I stand by it.

Problems:
1. Can't fight at range. The rogue is a glass cannon. You don't want to be in your enemy's face if you don't have to. If there's someone else to distract him, then why aren't they flanking for you?
2. You only get one attack. Short of something like Snap Kick (which burns another two feats unless you already have IUS for some reason), you won't be getting more out of a standard action melee. This results in relatively poor damage in addition to leaving yourself wide open to attack.

If you're by yourself, you're better off taking potshots with a bow or something. Just as much damage, but a lot safer. If you're not by yourself, you have so many better options it's not funny.

newbDM
2009-03-10, 11:27 PM
Thank you Person_Man for your list!

I will see into which methods can be obtained by him.



There's only so far "relying on the optimal party makeup" will take you. Feint + good careful use of positioning is reliable and doesn't need anything other than "another random party member". Invisibility, spells up the wazzo, etc, are all grand but often rather complicated. The OP was looking at items to pull this off -- if you can't get a dedicated flanker, then this feat is the next best thing. I stand by it.

Anyway, he's already multiclassing, how much of an XP penalty do you want! Though probably half of my gripe is all the side-books -- 3/4 of the DMs I've played with don't allow any but the core books, so its definitely one of those things I work within (though this leads to other flexibilities, such as half of them [and myself when I DM] treating Haste as giving an extra move action). Though the dog idea is pretty good.

Yeah, I was hoping for items/magic items/alchemical items/etc that would do the trick.

Again, the character is is based around his three sneak attacks. Because of this I do not want to depend on other people/party members. Sure, using them when a situation is available is a good idea, but I do not want him to need it.


I do not plan on making him a spellcaster, so casting spells himself is out of the picture.

I looked into the wand of armor lock, but it only works for one round/level, and the DC is too low to be dependable.

I am currently trying to find an item in the Magic Item Compendium that lets yous summon things, so I can flank. So far I have only found the Amulet of Vermin, which is only 1/day, and the only medium sized creature has only 13 HP. :smallfrown:


edit:
Alchemical items have been mentioned a few times as an option, so can anyone please tell me which items? I just went through CrystalKeep.com's Equipment list PDF, but I saw no item which aided SA in the alchemical items section.

TheOz
2009-03-10, 11:29 PM
If I might add my spare change in here as well... It seems like you've got almost all the mechanics stuff covered, so I'm going to make a different suggestion based on the way my odd little group tends to do things.

Role-play, role-play, role-play. Root for bonuses, stances, nooks and crannies, enemy weaknesses, anything you can find that might give you an advantage. If the DM tells you the fighter just hit the gnoll on the leg, tell him you attack the second he is thrown off balance, or you try with your first claw to make his leg buckle by clawing the wound, then aim for his throat once he falls. You'd be surprised how many extra sneak attack dice that can get you, without ever needing to crack open a book or use a skill roll.

If you want to add a bit of combat mechanics into it, try readying an action. Say you go on full defence until you see the gnoll turn his attention on the casting mage, or use a spot check to find a chink in his armor you can poke at and use to create a pressure point in his armor that will bother him. It might not give extra damage, but it might give the gnoll a -1 or -2 penalty on attacks due to the irritation. And it's the little things that count in a fight, not just damage-dealing. Take it from someone who plays rogue-types almost exclusively.

Of course, those things might not work if you've got a stodgy DM who sticks to exactly what the book says. I leave those kinds of games, personally, out of boredom.

RTGoodman
2009-03-10, 11:37 PM
edit:
Alchemical items have been mentioned a few times as an option, so can anyone please tell me which items? I just went through CrystalKeep.com's Equipment list PDF, but I saw no item which aided SA in the alchemical items section.

Well, from the SRD, smokesticks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) I think would work provided you could actually bypass the concealment, and tanglefoot bags (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag) definitely work. I'm pretty sure there are also some that momentarily blind opponents, some that create smoke, and all kinds of stuff like that. I'm AFB right now, but I think there's probably stuff in Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, maybe Dungeonscape, maybe Arms & Equipment Guide, and maybe Draconomicon or Races of the Dragon (whichever has those kobold grenades).

Curmudgeon
2009-03-11, 02:10 AM
The Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat is what you're looking for. No, that isn't going to work reliably.
The animal cohort is generally friendly to you and is willing to follow you and adventure with you. If given proper training, the animal cohort will willingly serve as your mount, guardian, and companion. (See the description of the Handle Animal skill on page 74 of the Player's Handbook for more details on training animals.)
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You can teach an animal to attack, but there is no way in the rules to teach it to attack in a flanking position. As it's only "generally friendly to you" the DM plays the animal -- not you -- so you don't get to keep it where you want it.

Bayar
2009-03-11, 02:55 AM
Tell your arcane caster to cast Grease.

???

Sneak attacks galore !

Disclaimer: Attempting to do this with someone who has 5 or more class skills in Balance might actually lead to your health points to drop in a painful way.

Darrin
2009-03-11, 09:29 AM
I am currently trying to find an item in the Magic Item Compendium that lets yous summon things, so I can flank. So far I have only found the Amulet of Vermin, which is only 1/day, and the only medium sized creature has only 13 HP. :smallfrown:


Aberrant Sphere (MIC p. 149) can summon some creatures and is fairly cheap (2800 GP). You could get a choker 3/day, which is small and a little light on HP but it has 10' reach and improved grab. Carrion Crawler 1/day isn't bad, either... 8 tentacle attacks with a Fort save vs paralysis. DC is only 13, but on 8 attacks, well... everyone blows a save eventually.

In Core, it's hard to find anything better than a Bag of Tricks. Very easy on the pocket book (3000 GP or 6300 gp), and so long as it's Rust or Tan, the animals will be large enough to threaten.

Also in Core are the Figurines of Wondrous Power. In general, not as many uses/day or uses/week as the Bag of Tricks and a lot pricier, but darned useful. The golden lions are probably best as flankers/grapplers, and each one (they come in pairs) can be used 1/day.

Outside of Core, there are some other Figurines that might be worth considering:

Ghostwalk has the Bone Ape (1/week, 10000 GP) and Jet Snake (2/week, 12000 GP).

Sandstorm has the Gold Beetle (11500 GP) and Ivory Camel (8500 GP), but what's really nice is neither of these has a limitation on uses per day/week/etc., just a total duration per week (24 hours for the gold beetle and 12 for the ivory camel). If only used in combat where 1 round = 6 seconds, you essentially have unlimited use.

On the WotC website there are a couple more:

Beastly Boar gives you a fiendish dire boar (2/week, 10000 GP). Great stats and a +17 grapple check.

Dark Beauty gives you a winged fiendish unicorn (1/week, 25000 GP), a little too expensive but it can cast cure spells and neutralize poison.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030613a

And the gold standard for Figurine of Wondrous Whoopass:

That Damn Limestone Crab (2/week, 10000 GP). This thing is a walking TPK in a shell.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040320a (magic items)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a (monster stats)

Another magic item if you have access to FR-specific books... Instrument of the Winds (Magic of Faerun, p. 161). If you can make a DC 15 Perform check, summon a large air elemental at will.



Alchemical items have been mentioned a few times as an option, so can anyone please tell me which items? I just went through CrystalKeep.com's Equipment list PDF, but I saw no item which aided SA in the alchemical items section.

It's not alchemical, but you'll want to take a look at Marbles on page 24 of the Arms & Equipment Guide. They are deployed like caltrops (standard action to spread in a 5' square) but work as a mini-grease spell. Target has to make a balance check and may fall, but even if they make it, unless they have 5 ranks in Balance they are treated as flat-footed when attacked in that square. If you want to deploy these and still attack in the same round, then you might want to consider buying a monkey/babboon and training them to roll marbles under a target you specify as a trick. Ordering an animal to perform a trick is a move action. You can speed this up to a free action if it's an animal companion or wild cohort (pick up a level of Silverwood Outrider to order them as a free action).

As for alchemical items... I've been compiling a list of these but unfortunately it's not done. What I can tell you is you'll want to look at items that cause blindness, and one of the better ones are flash pellets. These were last printed in Complete Adventurer (p. 118) and so are one of the few blinding items that is completely under 3.5 rules. 50 GP, essentially a thrown weapon with a 5' range increment. Throw it at an opponent's square or at a grid intersection, 5' radius burst, and anyone within 5' must make a Fort save DC 15 or is blinded for 1 round and then dazed the following round. Ok, the save DC isn't all that great, but it isn't all that bad, either... everyone blows a save eventually. If you want to combine this with melee attacks, picking up the Rapid Shot feat allows you to make an extra ranged attack per round with a -2 penalty on your other attacks (which do *not* have to be ranged attacks).

Savage Species has something called a Flash Tube, which is a bit like a flash pellet on nuclear steroids. Thrown as a grenade-like weapon, which explodes in a 60' radius burst. Fort save DC 13 (kinda pathetic) or blinded for 1d3 rounds. The big drawback here is with that kind of burst radius, you're just as likely to blind yourself and allies.

Oriental Adventures has these flashpowder eggshell grenades, but they're not worth it since they can only be used when thrown into an open flame (although a friendly neighborhood flaming sphere or summon elemental reserve feat might come in handy). Fort save DC is only 10 (why bother?), but blindness lasts 1d4 rounds.

If your DM allows material from Dragon magazine, then there are a couple more alchemical items of interest:

Dragon #298 (the one with the cheesecake Drow on the cover) has a flashstone. 30 GP so it's cheaper than the flash pellet, range increment 10' I believe, 15' diameter burst, Fort save DC 16. Better than the flash pellet pretty much all the way around.

Dragon #334 has something called burning dust, related somewhat to alchemical fire. Thrown weapon, target 5' square, anyone within 5' (so it sounds like a 15' diameter burst) makes Fort save DC 12 or blinded and sickened for 1d6 rounds.

Darrin
2009-03-11, 09:43 AM
No, that isn't going to work reliably. You can teach an animal to attack, but there is no way in the rules to teach it to attack in a flanking position. As it's only "generally friendly to you" the DM plays the animal -- not you -- so you don't get to keep it where you want it.

Teach it to Pin instead:



Pin (DC 15): The animal attempts to grapple and pin a designated creature.


Link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

Person_Man suggests dogs, but mules are cheap (8 GP) and much better grapplers. Large creature with +9 grapple bonus. Grappled creatures lose their Dex bonus to everyone except the creature grappling them.

Also a nice combo: Blurstrike weapon + Scorpion's Grasp. Blurstrike (RotW) causes opponent to be flat-footed on the first attack. Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) works a lot like Improved Grab, giving you a free grapple check and you also have the option to continue attacking while not treating yourself as grappled. The target however is still treated as grappled, so he loses his dex bonus, and you can continue the rest of your attacks and get sneak attack on all of them.

Person_Man
2009-03-11, 12:56 PM
Teach it to Pin instead:
Link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

Person_Man suggests dogs, but mules are cheap (8 GP) and much better grapplers. Large creature with +9 grapple bonus. Grappled creatures lose their Dex bonus to everyone except the creature grappling them.

Well, that's just freaking hilarious and awesome. I must now play an Assassin who has an army of loyal mule minions to gang tackle my enemies so that I may destroy them!

...Despicable..
2009-03-11, 01:04 PM
Well, that's just freaking hilarious and awesome. I must now play an Assassin who has an army of loyal mule minions to gang tackle my enemies so that I may destroy them!

Wow, that character sounds like a real ass.

Animefunkmaster
2009-03-11, 01:20 PM
To add to the list:

Planar Handbook Feats:
Neraph's Throw: target of a thrown weapon is caught flat footed no save. One thrown weapon per target, per round.
Neraph's Charge: Insta-flat (again, no save) foot on the target at the end of a charge (with pounce this gets nasty) only works on an opponent once (but really, do you need more than once?)

newbDM
2009-03-11, 03:50 PM
Thank you all for the help so far. Much appreciated! When i get back home tonight I will take a careful read of the newer posts.



Oh, I have been looking through the PrC I wanted, and have decided to drop it. So now I am completely open to possible PrCs and/or multiclassing.

I am thinking perhaps going the cleric route, since his deity has the Trickery Domain. So by level three of cleric he can get Invisibility, and just spam that constantly on himself. I am imagining Cleric3/Fighter2/Rogue2, and then possibly jumping into a PrC?

Would cleric levels be good for this at all? Are there any spells he would have access to that would help? I know Grease is Bard and Sor/Wiz only.

Although I will be lacking in Rogue levels, I am thinking I can make up for it with SA feats like Dragonfire Strike and Craven?

Plus, couldn't rebuked undead make good flanking buddies?......he is CN......>_>

Darrin
2009-03-11, 10:31 PM
I am thinking perhaps going the cleric route, since his deity has the Trickery Domain. So by level three of cleric he can get Invisibility, and just spam that constantly on himself. I am imagining Cleric3/Fighter2/Rogue2, and then possibly jumping into a PrC?


The problem with multiclassing cleric is you invariably wind up with something weaker than just straight cleric. I guess I'm confused by what you're trying to accomplish now... are you trying to optimize sneak attack? If so, then taking all those cleric and fighter levels is taking you in the wrong direction. If you want a cleric with rogue-ish abilities, then a straight cleric with the Kobold and Trickery domain pretty darned effective. If you want a cleric with sneak attack progression, then Rogue 3/Cleric 17 with the Sacred Outlaw feat is probably best.



Would cleric levels be good for this at all? Are there any spells he would have access to that would help? I know Grease is Bard and Sor/Wiz only.


Clerics don't get grease, but they do get ice slick (Frostburn) which is darned near the same thing. (Druids get path of frost, which isn't as good, but then they're already drowning in awesome.)

VirOath
2009-03-12, 03:55 AM
I can add a few things. Spell casting yourself is easy as pie IF you have a good Cha score and been stacking UMD ranks. Doing this opens up ANY wand and scroll to you. Not only that, but it's good to invest in Wands over Scrolls. Wands are easier to use, aren't hit with ASP (Which you will likely have unless you have a 36 dex, which is the marker that +8 AC bracers beat maxed out armor.). You can pay more to have wands above the minimum caster level, and even have meta magic feats applied, and even higher stat wizards and clerics make them (Heighten, Extend and in a rare case Enlarge are the three best to pay for the spell level increase).

It's expensive, but it does open about a million doors on sneak attacks. Armor Lock, Grease, Web (or Web then Grease XD), Hold Monster, and about a million other stun, daze, frighten or other effects that deny dex bonus (Or buff yourself, improved invisibility hehehe). It's coming close to being a true spell caster, and it doesn't cost levels or exp. It is very expensive, again. DO NOT TRY IN A POOR PARTY!

But honestly, I don't feel like a rogue if I don't have UMD. I can't count the number of times that it has saved my hide. (Not just spell casting, being able to fake out magic, emulating different alignments. There is almost no limit to the skill.)

Another good item for sneak attacks is The Deck of Illusions! Having the chance of dropping a red dragon rocks (Anything that might not be threatened by it may fail a Dragon Fear check), and any other illusions will threaten a person, allowing you to flank them. Just so long as they don't make the will save to disbelieve.

Now another thing you can do for an instant flanker in your pocket is to grab up wands or scrolls of Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster. They don't have to be high level ones. Using III or IV to summon lower level mobs in bulk gives you more staying time with the HP issue.


And one final thing about the whole animal companion thing. It will work. Giving the Order "Flank whatever I attack." is something that is not only easy to train, but it's a common tactic used by pack hunters in the wild. Orders like "Defend this person." are really simple and easy for pets to follow, bought and trained with gold or feats/class.

Another thing for full time flanking partners is the various items that summon Elementals. Most of them can be reused, you only have to prepare a bit before hand. And that shouldn't be an issue if you are sneaking along. You can even get these put into a weapon at a +1 enchant level, upto a +5 depending on size (Magic Item Compendium).

And if you have a druid in the party then they are going to LOVE having a Large Air Elemental drop on the field for them. It makes the spell Call Lightning kick royal butt!


That's all I can think of for now, that I don't think has been mentioned.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-12, 06:42 AM
I am thinking perhaps going the cleric route, since his deity has the Trickery Domain. So by level three of cleric he can get Invisibility, and just spam that constantly on himself. Cleric works very well for a single level dip, because domain powers make the class very front-loaded. Beyond that you're just making yourself a weak Cleric instead of something else.

For best synergy with Rogue, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is the way to go. You pick up three domains, including Knowledge, and only lose 2 skill points compared to Rogue. Complete Champion added both domain feats and rules for trading a Clerical domain for the associated feat. So you could pick Travel as one of your domains, and then trade it for Travel Devotion. This gives you the ability to move your speed as a swift action 1/day. But then you can also channel your (otherwise useless) turn undead attempts into (3 + CHA mod)/2 more uses of this feat. This lets you move into flanking position and then do a full round of sneak attacks, or do a Spring Attack-type maneuver without having that feat. You can also pick Magic as your other domain. By having a level of Cleric you can automatically use all wands with spells on the Cleric list; Magic also lets you use all wands with spells on the Wizard list. This means you've gained access to most of what Use Magic Device is used for without having any ranks in the skill.

So forget casting Invisibility from your own spell list. Take a single level dip, select the Magic Domain, and get yourself a wand of Greater Invisibility. Then sneak attack away!

If you find a good reason to actually pursue the Rogue/Cleric combo (and there are some -- just not what you suggested), consider taking the Sacred Outlaw feat (from Dragon # 357). That lets you stack Cleric and Rogue levels for both sneak attack dice and undead turning.

Darrin
2009-03-12, 07:56 AM
Now another thing you can do for an instant flanker in your pocket is to grab up wands or scrolls of Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster. They don't have to be high level ones. Using III or IV to summon lower level mobs in bulk gives you more staying time with the HP issue.


You'll want to be careful with the wands, scrolls and summon spells because they require an entire round to cast, which can allow your enemies time to interrupt you before your next turn starts.



And one final thing about the whole animal companion thing. It will work. Giving the Order "Flank whatever I attack." is something that is not only easy to train, but it's a common tactic used by pack hunters in the wild.

"Flank" is not a trick defined by the rules. Animals can be ordered to attack a specific target, but not from a particular square. Whether or not an animal is smart enough to move into a flanking position or use pack tactics would probably be up to the DM (hawks, cats, etc. aren't normally pack hunters). It's not unreasonable to create a Flank trick, but it would be up to the DM.

VirOath
2009-03-12, 01:34 PM
On the note about scrolls and wands, yes, scrolls can be interrupted. But wands are standard actions that do not provoke an AoO and can be held in the off hand normally without impacting normal combat. Unless you are dual wielding, and I have no idea how it would affect natural weapon attacks.

Wands become killer with the Quickdraw feat as well. It's almost a must for an item dependent rogue.



And yes, you can't control exactly which square or hex a dog will attack from. But there are 6 squares in a grid that will provide a flank attack for you, and an animal would use it's natural tactics BUT include you into them. So if you are using a pack hunter, it should always flank your target, you just can't tell it exactly where to flank.

But it would continue to move around it if you started shifting, to maintain it's own flanking bonus.

And pack hunters aren't limited to wolves and dogs. Lions, Hyenas, and even dolphins (for aquatic campaigns) are pack hunters. And there are many more, almost every animal that is not solitary is a pack hunter. And the DMG adds much more choice to what you get, like adding Dire or Celestial templates or getting a horde of giant ants.

No trick is needed. It's basic instinct.

Edit:

It looks like I'll need to expand on the usefulness of UMD, since it goes beyond just 'using' magic. Another great function of it is to effectively change your alignment's reaction to magic. This means that you can change you alignment to be the appropriate type to what you are fighting to avoid effects (Alignment based damage like Unholy, Chaos or Law, Anti-Alignment bonuses like Unholy Aura, everybody's favorite alignment based spells Holy Word and Blasphemy and so on.). You can use a free action to make the check, which you can either know to do through a bit of knowledge skill usage or Meta gaming. No check is required for another hour, you can make another attempt every time you are faced with it, and if you have a high UMD skill you can even swap your alignment to meet the spells being tossed by your allies as well, preventing this tactic from restricting them. It's really annoying to casters.

It also allows you to use magic items requiring a certain class feature. Like if an item requires you to expend a use of Turn Undead, you just make the check to emulate a 1st level cleric and you are good. Doing this also lets you use wands and first level scrolls on a cleric's spell list without checks for an hour. You don't gain any of the features, so you can't turn undead, but you are treated as though you did have it for the purposes of using or interacting with magic. Again, a check every hour to maintain that setting, but it can be dropped or changed at any time. (You can even use it to emulate high enough to use relic weapons for free, but the moment you fail that check the god will know, and they might be a bit upset. Use at own peril.)

You can even use it to fake out magic in other ways, emulating subtypes (Only undead and golems can open this door. Anything living is Petrified, Disintegrated, Harmed, Shocking Grasped and about 50 other spell effects), though you can never actually heal from negative energy this way, or gain immunities to mind affecting or the like. You can use it to trick magic runes that require you to have a stat of a certain score. One hour for each check.

UMD is a skill, it's a key that opens the lock at is magic without any fuss. You don't even need to know what you are doing! It runs off of complete intent. And it's not limited there, be creative.

Zherog
2009-03-12, 01:45 PM
Blind opponents generally lose Dexterity (exceptions: Blindsight, Sightless, Blind Fight feat, Uncanny Dodge).
Opponents moving faster than 2x (exceptions: Run feat, Uncanny Dodge).

Uncanny dodge does not protect against these. Uncanny dodge protects against being flat-footed and being struck by an invisible target. Being blinded causes you to lose your Dex to AC, rather than making you flat-footed. Same for a creature who is running.

Not mentioned yet (though rare) is to strike a creature without a climb speed while it's making a Climb check.

Magnor Criol
2009-03-12, 02:41 PM
Anything actually contributory to this thread I have to say has already been said, so I'll merely point out this:

Wow, that character sounds like a real ass.

Despicable wins this thread.

monty
2009-03-12, 02:44 PM
On the note about scrolls and wands, yes, scrolls can be interrupted. But wands are standard actions that do not provoke an AoO and can be held in the off hand normally without impacting normal combat.

Wrong.ten characters


...casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)

VirOath
2009-03-12, 02:52 PM
Ok, thanks for the correction. But the point behind it still stands. A Wand does not require a concentration check if you take damage, does not provoke AoO (Edit: Not sure on this one now that I think about it) and does not suffer from ASF chance.

Never knew it took a full round to use a summon monster wand though, must have over looked it. But you would want to wait till the next round to move anyways, so you could move and flank with it without exposing yourself.

And it's still a great tactic to use to prepare.


But thanks for catching that Monty ^_^

newbDM
2009-03-15, 08:59 AM
I just want to say thank you to you all.


Yesterday I tried one of the options you all suggested. With two pouches of marbles (4sp worth) things got pretty interesting.

First off, I got an entire thee natural attack routine on a "chaotic evil lite" CN party member, dropping him dead instantly. >_>

Afterward, I knocked over the module's BBEG monster twice on his face. The first time I got a full-attack three natural attack route plus sneak attack damage on him. Sadly, the other two rouges in the party and their players are completely worthless, so instead sneak attacking him and killing him in the first/second round of combat, it went downhill and my character got killed. :smallfurious:

So I am extremely disappointed that I could not put more of these suggestions to use. I already had plans for a pet named Death Donkey to help me pin. :smallfrown: