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View Full Version : Qarr's reliability in the alternate plan



Kaytara
2009-03-10, 04:38 PM
- 635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html): Fiend: "The imp has agreed to serve you in this matter, and as a Lawful creature, he can't go back on that promise."
- 583 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0583.html): Therkla (about Qarr and herself): "Our master DID order us to lure you here and kill you."
- 594 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html): Kubota: "Qarr? Qarr, where the hell are you? You were supposed to be my back-up in there."
- 599 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html): Hinjo: "Speaking of searching, any word on the imp yet?"
Lien: "No, sir. I've used Detect Evil to scan every inch of the ship, Kubota's ship, and the island."
Qarr: "And here I thought the hardest part would be getting back aboard a ship with two paladins."
- 625 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html): Qarr: "You smoked my boss... Where I'm from, that puts you at the top of the food chain."

Connect the dots, and this is the story you get:
Kubota could order Qarr around, ergo Qarr served Kubota. During the giant devil fight, Qarr had free run of the surroundings, as the two paladins were tied up. He did not show up to help Kubota out of a very dangerous situation despite the latter expecting him to do so. Qarr did not try to return to the ship afterwards (which already implies that he must have been on it at some point in the recent past) due to the presence of two paladins there, so the only way he could know exactly in what fashion Kubota perished would be by having directly witnessed it, which would also be consistent with him considering Vaarsuvius to be an opportunity.

While none of that is new, it is an interesting context for the fiends' assertion that, as a Lawful Evil creature, he cannot go back on his promise to serve a mortal, yet it seems Qarr did just that when he left his master without back-up at the most crucial moment and then apparently hung around to watch.

Either the fiends are flat out lying, or, more likely, their claim is technically true but the Lawful Evil devil in question would still be able to exploit loopholes in the (hastily-worded due to time pressure) explicit orders at will.
Regardless of the conclusion, this renders the certainty of Qarr's assistance with the alternative plan even more suspect than it already was.

I just thought I'd bring that out here for consideration, since I saw so many people arguing that Lawfulness is in Qarr's blood and he would be unable to refuse an order from Vaarsuvius. Assuming that's the case, it seems that Qarr would still be perfectly able to find a way to ruin the plan if he wanted.

Never even mind the fact that Qarr did not explicitly swear fealty to V. "Let me help" is very different from "I hereby swear to serve you, in sickness and in health, etc...."

hamishspence
2009-03-10, 04:43 PM
Given that failure to provide an offered benefit- that is to say, having lied about it, invalidates a Pact Certain, that would suggest that it is possible for LE fiends to lie, given that this is a contingency.

They don't tend to approve of it, but its possible. One archdevil is even called Lord of Lies (Baalzebul) So, yes, the IFCC's comment of Qaar's obedience might not be correct.

JonestheSpy
2009-03-10, 04:54 PM
Especially when you consider that the plan contained a strong possiblity of Qarr getting speared by a paladin, I really don't think that it was a sure thing by any means.

I think the IFCC was just messing with V's head, planting the doubt that maybe V had other options to save hir family, just to bring the pride aspect to the fore and make V's eventual fall that much easier.

JonahFalcon
2009-03-10, 05:29 PM
Here we go again.

"They must have been trying to trick V, so she's BLAMELESS! She had no choice!"

She had a choice. She took the easier, most cowardly one.

Stop rationalizing.

Lira
2009-03-10, 05:34 PM
Here we go again.

"They must have been trying to trick V, so she's BLAMELESS! She had no choice!"

She had a choice. She took the easier, most cowardly one.

Stop rationalizing.
You're completely missing the point of the topic. Read the second to last paragraph again.

[TS] Shadow
2009-03-10, 05:35 PM
I think that Qarr would be relalible. If he was willing to help before the IFCC, he'd be willing to help after. However, I'm interested in his role in the story from here on. I'm sure we'll see more of him, but I want to know what he'll do.

David Argall
2009-03-10, 05:35 PM
Yes, it does appear that Qarr has neither made any agreement that requires he do any major service for V, nor that he would be all that bound by any he did enter into.

However, this is likely not a major weakness to the plan. Qarr would likely agree to the plan and carry out his part of the duties for something like becoming V's familiar, a position V would likely freely offer. So this is likely just a detail.

JonahFalcon
2009-03-10, 05:38 PM
No, it's called "narrative".

It's lazy writing to force a character into something. The fact is, Rich let us know that

1. Qarr wanted to help, and was just as surprised as anyone when the trio appeared. He was resigned to the fact that V wasn't going to get any answer.

2. V wanted the Faustian deal.. She twisted Qarr's arm to get the application.

3. The trio told V the alternative for a reason: to force V to make a MORAL CHOICE. There can be no moral choice when there's no choice.

Godskook
2009-03-10, 05:58 PM
3. The trio told V the alternative for a reason: to force V to make a MORAL CHOICE. There can be no moral choice when there's no choice.

Logic - flawless

Premise - wrong.

V always had a choice. Just because the deal was his only option to save his family doesn't mean that was his only option. He could've turned the deal down, and accepted things as they were, that he had no control over his family's safety. Sure, that is tragic, but its a choice. So prior to the fiend's alternative, V could choose:

Faustian deal

or

family dies, souls bound to dragon*

*This, as I see it, is the hitch. This is a danger I'm unfamiliar with(it doesn't exist in my personal religion), so I'm not sure of how grevious that is, compared to a Faustian deal. It is possible that without the fiend's alternative, this deal could go the same way as Constantine's deal with Satan in "Constantine", but like I said, I'm not really sure how grevious that threat is in OotS or D&D in general.

Kaytara
2009-03-10, 06:14 PM
...Huh.

Considering that I didn't say a single word about Vaarsuvius' choice and the implications thereof, only about why this is another flaw in the plan suggested by the fiends, could we stop this from developing into another discussion about the bargain? There are threads for that, after all.

To make things clearer, I am more curious about this might say about the fiends, as well as OotS fiends in general and how they compare to stock DnD fiends.
If the fiends are capable of lying (the two non-Lawful ones most certainly should be), it raises the question of what else they may have lied about.
I think the "which fiend is which?" ambiguity has a very good reason - it's there to keep the reader (and, on the other side of the fourth wall, whoever they're making a bargain with) guessing about which fiend can be "trusted" on account of being lawful.

derfenrirwolv
2009-03-10, 06:14 PM
Either the fiends are flat out lying, or, more likely, their claim is technically true but the Lawful Evil devil in question would still be able to exploit loopholes in the (hastily-worded due to time pressure) explicit orders at will.
Regardless of the conclusion, this renders the certainty of Qarr's assistance with the alternative plan even more suspect than it already was.


Well, they're not exactly lying, they're giving a one sided assessment of the situation. In other words, they're skewing the truth horribly (not unlike a certain vulpine based news organization.)

Even as a lawful being, Qarr can go back on his word once he realizes the implications of an offer he hasn't even sealed yet. "Sure i'll deliver a message for you" the realization that he'll die for the act gives him more than adequate reason to pull out, especially when he hasn't received anything for it yet.

So, you need Qaar to undertake a suicide mission. (50%). You need him to be able to FIND the boats. The boat is an object, not a location, and if you can't see it, you don't know where it is. You then need Durkon to have a scroll. Then you need andraius to be willing to listen to generic dwarf 479, and be prepared to fight a very dangerous opponent. Even an epic caster would have trouble with Momma BD. If he's not loaded for bear with the spells he prepared this morning he's in trouble. There's also the problem of preventing a dragon from leaving. Even if he has dimensional anchor memorized , she can simply fly off until it wears off. Andraius would have to keep teleporting to keep up, then maybe launch a quickened spell.

Each of those in and of themselves is likely, with the exception of the Qarr suicide. ALL of them working gets a little risky. If you have a 90% chance of guessing left or right at 4 intersections, you only have a 66% chance of getting there.

Even IF they all work, the big factor is time. I don't think Qaar and teleport "to the boats". He'd have to port a few times looking around. Durkon's unlikely to be on deck in his metal armor, they'll have to wait for him to get there. It would take at least 30 seconds (5 rounds) of discussion before the dwarf decided it wasn't a trap and sent the message.

The chances of it WORKING are iffy. The chances of it working *in time* are horrifically low. If that was V's reason, it would have been the RIGHT reason. Instead he chose the wrong reasons.

He has chosen...poorly.











The thing is V doesn't call them on it. The plan is a LOT less sure than V doing it himself*. If THAT was why V had chosen to splice his soul, it would have been a mitigated act of evil, if an act of evil at all. Making it about his pride made it a pretty horrific sin.

GSFB
2009-03-10, 07:11 PM
Qarr wanted to help, and was just as surprised as anyone when the trio appeared.

Assumption. Qarr appears to be surprised, but there is no evidence he actually IS surprised. It could be an act to help lead V to damnation. It is entirely possible Qarr and the IFCC were in cahoots all along.

Would Qarr have actually helped V had V chosen the alternative? Depends. What would be in it for Qarr? What would be in it for the IFCC?

Just because one is "lawful," doesn't mean one is 100% bound to act in a certain way. Qarr and the IFCC have their own motivations, and will act in order to further their goals. As a "lawful" being, about all Qarr can truly be expected to do is act according to a plan that is calculated to achieve a desired result. If that meant following through with V in order to advance the plan, then Qarr would do it. If that meant cutting losses by abandoning V's corpse and moving on to "plan B," then so be it.