Why do so many people want V to do horrible things to his-her family?

[silas the monk]

I'd love for
V to lose control of the Soul Splice after ABD's dead, Fiends take over, and wreck havoc on V's family.
Karmariffic!

I don't want to single Narazil out but it seems he is not the only one. I DO NOT understand this point of view. Could we have some explanation?

Edit: Reasons people have cited
I'm still trying to understand these reasons. If I did I would probably collate them.


"we" merely believe that it is inevitable ..........Don't blame the messenger(s).
People are evil.
For the same reason we don't want V to simply teleport to Xykon, kill him and Redcloak, and end their threat. That would be boring, and a poor direction for the story. Having V in some way harm (physically or psychologically) those he rented his soul to save would be karmic, ironic, and interesting. It would propel the story further into different territory, and really help V evolve as a character. Of course, the family could be harmed by someone/thing else, and this is just an option. But having the family simply be saved, and V dismiss the splice, with little-to-no consequences (aside from his brief time with the three fiends), would be boring.
Fireballing_Fun: V may do something horrible to his family mistakenly, because he is still trying/learning to control the three spliced souls, that obviously could heavily influence him into doing something he would very much regret.
Because most people are slightly sadistic, and need to get it out of their system via stick figure violence. :smalleek:
If anyone 'wants' V to commit such an act, they want it for the further drama and action it could add to the story...... In fiction- well, without conflict you have no plot and violence ( or the threat thereof) is the most ready type of 'conflict' you can use (but not always the most interesting).
People want to see Vaarsuvius kill the family because people like violence, and to some, violence is more important than plot development......And, yes, there is an element of sadistic evil here.
Because V has been a jerk since the Azure City fell? Karma.
If V walks away, family intact, does the time, and carries on with life, it's boring. If V harms/kills some loved ones, and then goes (double) guilt-crazy, it's almost cliché.
The people who -do- want bad things to happen to hir family, see this as a path of no return for V, ......V will forever be twisted and evil. even after the soul splice ends.
The reason, evil should be punished.

[Laughing Dragon]

You are a victim of the Cassandra Effect ... "we" do not want V to kill hir family, "we" merely believe that it is inevitable due to the circumstances in which V finds hirself (and by extention, the circumstances in which V's family will find hem).

Their reaction to hem (in hes current state) will set off a chain reaction in V, which (due to the splice) will lead to only one possible outcome ... i.e. their deaths.

Don't blame the messenger(s).

[Ghastly Epigram]

"we" do not want V to kill hir family,

Judging from the wording of the quote in the OP ("I'd love for"), and indeed several other posts hanging around, this actually seems to be exactly the case for some people.

[Ikialev]

Or.

People are evil.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Why is V going to do anything horrible to his family?

That makes no sense!

[MammonAzrael]

For the same reason we don't want V to simply teleport to Xykon, kill him and Redcloak, and end their threat. That would be boring, and a poor direction for the story.

Having V in some way harm (physically or psychologically) those he rented his soul to save would be karmic, ironic, and interesting. It would propel the story further into different territory, and really help V evolve as a character. Of course, the family could be harmed by someone/thing else, and this is just an option. But having the family simply be saved, and V dismiss the splice, with little-to-no consequences (aside from his brief time with the three fiends), would be boring.

Fireballing_Fun: V may do something horrible to his family mistakenly, because he is still trying/learning to control the three spliced souls, that obviously could heavily influence him into doing something he would very much regret.

[Zanaril]

Because most people are slightly sadistic, and need to get it out of their system via stick figure violence. :smalleek:

[TowerWizard]

The reasons posted above are all good. It is the interesting choise. But it is also highly expected, since, as people have said, it would be boring if he just saved them. Thus, people expect them not to be saved, so in fact the best way to handle this may be to just save them and GET ON WITH THE STORY!

I have read these strips for a long time, as I imagine everyone else here has. I understand that this was inevitable, since the reference to this dragon was a loose end that just waited to be resolved (and consume time). When I saw the black dragon, I just sighed, since this means yet another few months with sidestories. I found V interesting once, but I don't like the way this is playing out. If he/she/it had any mental capacity, doesn't he/she/it realise that it would be a VERY BAD IDEA to strike such a deal? Yes, he/she/it may save his/hers/its family, but, most likely, condemn an untold number of innocent people to a horrifying death at the same time. Besides, I always thought of V as one of the good guys. And, lastly, there was another way of saving the family. I simply don't like this.

When is Roy going to be resurrected? Where is Elan? What about the Monster in the Dark? Xykon? I don't even want to count the number of strips that have passed with nothing but sidestories. I have even begun reading "the Battle for Gobwin knob", since those strips at least seems to lead somewhere. With OotS, it's like Rich don't know what's gonna happen and have just improvised ever since he realised how popular the strips are.

WHAT ABOUT THE MAIN STORY?

[Curris]

In addition, I feel that despite all of V's power previously, and current magical might, V is, in actuality, weak. All characters have flaws, and although V is a magical juggernaut, hir has a very lax control of self-motivation. Perhaps I am using the wrong words, but someone mentioned that V has always taken the quick easy way to power. V's Strong Neutral stance doesn't help either.

Point of my argument? I suspect that V will be more subtly corrupted by the three in the splice, not enough to harm the family, but to know that their power, and the power of evil will always be better than what he could achieve on his own. And he will fall again. . .

Ultimately, the splicers and the fiends won't make V do anything. V will do it hirself.

[Selene]

Or.

People are evil.

I'm going to endorse this theory.

[TheBST]

WHAT ABOUT THE MAIN STORY?

Journey, not destination, sir.

If anyone 'wants' V to commit such an act, they want it for the further drama and action it could add to the story. In the real world- totally reprehensible, to root for whatever causes more carnage for your own entertainment. In fiction- well, without conflict you have no plot and violence ( or the threat thereof) is the most ready type of 'conflict' you can use (but not always the most interesting). Some readers want more of this kind of action, but if that means an unhappy ending for some characters or a redshirt or two being picked off, so be it.

[Occasional Sage]

Or.

People are evil.

My name is Occasional Sage, and I approve this message.

[Mr. Pin]

People want to see Vaarsuvius kill the family because people like violence, and to some, violence is more important than plot development. This is why Belkar Bitterleaf is cooler than everyone else, and this is why Emo Hailey was frowned upon so heavily by some.

And, yes, there is an element of sadistic evil here.

[silas the monk]

People are evil.

Is the idea here that evil people like evil story lines or that a really, really evil V killing his family is a logical outcome? I think the post is ambiguous (and all those that quoted it).

Actually given that the dragon will be alive the next round and V's family is low on HP, their death IS logical. However I really want them to survive. There is plenty of scope for drama in the family row that ensues (and Oh dear the family first aid kit probably got burned by the acid).

[Ryver]

Because V has been a jerk since the Azure City fell? Karma.

I don't agree with that line of reasoning. I think V deserves a good slap upside the face, little more.

I think that we all know that something bad is going to happen as a result of the soul splice. What that is, we don't know. Having V's family harmed as a direct result would be the ironic (and probably obvious) choice of consequence.

If V walks away, family intact, does the time, and carries on with life, it's boring.
If V harms/kills some loved ones, and then goes (double) guilt-crazy, it's almost cliché.

Personally, I'm hoping for an option that I would never have considered. I know Rich will not disappoint.

[TowerWizard]

Journey, not destination, sir.

You are right, I want to read about the journey. The journey to end the influence of Xykon. He havn't even shown his face for hundreds of strips. Character development is all well and good, but c'mon! Get on with the main story already!

[TBone]

I think its pretty simple. This story arc could best be described as "V's descent..."

The people who -don't- want bad things to happen to hir family, want V to be redeemed or redeemable at some point. They want to believe that V will turn back to neutrality and rejoin the OOTS and have some more wacky adventures with hir friends. V may have consequences of hir deal with the devil to answer for later, but V will not become some kind of monster/evil antagonist.

The people who -do- want bad things to happen to hir family, see this as a path of no return for V, however there is always a sliver of hope for redemption if V does in fact save hir family with this deal with the devil. By V killing, harming, defiling hir family while under the throws of the soul splice, it removes any hope of redemption from V's character. V will forever be twisted and evil. even after the soul splice ends.

Even Raistlin eventually was redeemed in the end, and he is the classic example that V's character is now playing out.

Simply put, if you wish harm on the family, you want V to forever be changed and twisted by these events for evil. If you want V to simply succeed and return to the OOTS as an androgynous glass cannon with questionable morales, you want the family to live.

Now, in the context of the overall story, these "side" arcs have all had each character change in some way, both in appearance and action. So it is doubtful that V is going to ever go back to being V, as we knew hir. Not everyone changes for the better.

It is classic cannon for magic users to be corrupted by the power they wield. This is why "evil wizard" is a staple nemesis in D & D, where as "evil knight" is always a lackey of said wizard.

[Kaytara]

If he/she/it had any mental capacity, doesn't he/she/it realise that it would be a VERY BAD IDEA to strike such a deal? Yes, he/she/it may save his/hers/its family, but, most likely, condemn an untold number of innocent people to a horrifying death at the same time.

I must humbly point out that, to the best of V's knowledge, he was only condemning his own soul by that bargain, and only for a limited time to boot. As for the fiends' greater plan, evil is trying to defeat good all the time. There is no particular reason to expect that their success with V, of all things, will immediately grant them a free ticket to world domination. Don't forget that there are forces of pure Good out there, as well.

As for the rest of your post, I'm always puzzled when people want to "get back to the main story". Who says it's the main story? Just because the scope of that particular story arc is more epic than the rest doesn't say a thing about its importance. More to the point, it's the story about the Order of the Stick, as individuals, not JUST about their adventures together. The personal trials the characters go through are in every way as crucial and important as their accomplishments in certain quests.

I think it would be easier for you if you stop being so fixated on the idea that the OotS has a grand "main plot" of some kind and that anything that isn't directly related to the Gates is just unnecessary filler material, and instead enjoy the actual story as it's being told.

[Morty]

WHAT ABOUT THE MAIN STORY?

Why, it's in motion. The current arc of the main story is V's descent into evil. Or the lack of it, we'll see. Really, one might think that after two hundreds strips in which OoTS isn't fighting Xykon as in the Dungeon of Dorukan storyline people would start to realize that everything not directly related to fighting Xykon over the gates isn't sidetrack filler material.

[silas the monk]

People want to see Vaarsuvius kill the family because people like violence, and to some, violence is more important than plot development. This is why Belkar Bitterleaf is cooler than everyone else
Yes I think Belkar is funny. However I think he is funny because he represents a very common, almost iconic type of roleplayer. He is the sort who optimizes his attack bonus, his AC etc so he can kill as many as possible. If other characters are holding a conversation with NPC, he kills the NPCs. He thinks killing as many as possible is the be all and end all of the "game". He thinks he is cool, because he is a game mechanically optimized psychopath. I know players like that and he is funny because he is such a good representation of them.

I wrote that in the present tense, but actually since his recent character development things are more complicated. But actually his character development was a brilliant idea for how such a character might deepen. As such it just makes my Belkar point even more so.

Now the last thing I want to happen is for V to become a Belkar II. In fact although V has become increasingly casual about killing, he has always had a justification (unlike Belkar). Even when he disintegrated Kubota - a clearly chaotic evil act in my book - he had a justification. (As it happens the justification made even more sense from the point of view of the reader rather than internally but that was a joke in itself.) If V harms his family he is undermining his justification for accepting the soul splice and I think that would be really against V's character.

[Silverraptor]

I surmise that the reason why SO many people want V to do bad things to his family are probably the same kind of people who would've wanted Miko to kill Belkar. The reason, evil should be punished. There are some people out there that think that evil must have a consquence for their actions and the consequence for V accepting the fiends deal is having to kill his/her family.

Also, people are expecting Rich to do something like this. But as I've noticed, Rich likes to do unexpected things to us. The fact we're expecting this intices Rich into doing something different, which is what I will be expecting, something different. If he does go through with V hurting his/her family. Then he did something I wasn't expecting. It's a win-win for me because I like surprises.:smallbiggrin:

[Illieas]

Just to be clear to people the terming "V killing her family" would be hubris not karma.

because it has all the elements of greek tragedy. It is like odeipus combined with monkey paw.

S/he made a deal with an evil entity to get something out of it but doing so did the very thing s/he wanted to prevent. It's classic it is drama.

Bacially people can see a nearly complete sundae and want to place that cherry to complete it.

killing her family and soul bind them to demons is quite possibly the worst way for the deal to pan out with the most amount of suffering for this and thus the best outcome for hubris.

one last comparision Using the Movie Stranger than fiction

lots of movie plot spoilers...You have been warned

Stranger than fiction is movie about author killing off the main character. the reasoning was that he would die because he never lived his childhood and by saving childs life and dying, he let a child live the childhood that the main character didn't. This was to make the book great. Instead of making this epic book she decided to not kill the main character instead going to the touchy feely route of everyone lives which is still good but not great.

if you think it that way the people that want her to kill her family would actually be the ones that want a epic but sad story.

while the opposite want and happy but good story.

[Kaytara]

Simply put, if you wish harm on the family, you want V to forever be changed and twisted by these events for evil. If you want V to simply succeed and return to the OOTS as an androgynous glass cannon with questionable morales, you want the family to live.

I agree with this. He's emotionally fragile right now and another nudge will cause him to snap completely, while a different nudge may start him on the path to learning from his mistakes.
Personally, though, I don't see the former scenario happening. As you said, V failing at this point would likely be a point of no return for V - goodbye Vaarsuvius the protagonist, hello Vaarsuvius the deranged villain. There's no way he'd be able to rejoin the Order in that state, and didn't Rich confirm somewhere that the reunion WILL happen eventually? Aside from that, we have no major high-level spellcasting character ready to jump in and fill V's shoes as the party nuker, so I don't see that happening.

I disagree, however, with the idea that V succeeding at this point can only enable a return to status quo. Regardless of how this turns out, V will never be the same. To start with, he just had a revelation about his own motivations that is likely to significantly change his perception of himself.
Succeeding in saving his family with certain dramatic complications could easily feed some more character development in a positive direction for a change without returning V to the status of the same androgynous haughty atomic bomb.

[JonahFalcon]

Why do you care so much about V? It's just a FICTIONAL CHARACTER.

What I want is smart writing and no cop out resolutions.

[Calmness]

Well, V just did a literal deal with the devil and there should be consequences for her actions. Karma as they say, otherwise she won't learn anything.

[silas the monk]

Why do you care so much about V? It's just a FICTIONAL CHARACTER.
Surely the mark of good fiction is when people do care about the characters.

[David Argall]

I'm always puzzled when people want to "get back to the main story". Who says it's the main story? Just because the scope of that particular story arc is more epic than the rest doesn't say a thing about its importance.
While I am willing to question the idea that the main story has got to be better than any side quest, what we are reading here is a whole book of side quests. We could have saved about 150 strips by Haley just realizing after a month that sitting around was not working and going out and finding the rest of the party. We will see some changes of course [The starmetal sidequest got Roy his fancy sword for example.], but essentially the plot has gone nowhere this entire book. Xykon is still sitting in Azure City, which he was ready to leave at the start of it. So no, we are not making any progress on the main story. We are spinning wheels.

Now I question whether we should actually care. Archie has been chasing Veronica for about 70 years. Dagwood has been on the job for at least that long. Prince Valiant has been wandering around the early Middle Ages for just as long. Do we really care that none of them seem to be making any progress on the "main plot"? If the diversions are good stuff, why should we care that we are not moving the main plot at all? [Mind you, I deem the entire idea of dead Roy and scattered party bad, but that would be the case if we were advancing the main plot or not.]



With OotS, it's like Rich don't know what's gonna happen and have just improvised ever since he realised how popular the strips are.

Not at all. It may be a bad plan, but this is clearly planned out. But our writer has a tendency to overdo things. He kind of confesses that Haley had her voice problems for about twice as long as she should have. He is just doing the same with dead Roy.

Now as to the question of this thread, I can't say I want anything to happen to the family, but something must happen to cause V to lose her new-found power, and quickly. And the family is the likely victim of that.
Nor does the story seem to read right if V's victory is not in some way flawed. This does not demand their deaths, but something V won't like has to happen.

[silas the monk]

Now as to the question of this thread, I can't say I want anything to happen to the family, but something must happen to cause V to lose her new-found power, and quickly. And the family is the likely victim of that.
Nor does the story seem to read right if V's victory is not in some way flawed. This does not demand their deaths, but something V won't like has to happen.

Agreed. The OP was asking why some people were rooting for V to actually kill/torture her family. Let me put it another way. For all their flaws, V, the ABD, the baker, the green-haired elf child, the auburn-haired elf child are all characters with further potential for interesting development. Ideally I would like to see all of them develop further - though that may be asking too much. What I do not want to see is that the only one left standing is V sans sanity after having committed unspeakable acts. That seems excessive and to me just gross. Others seem to disagree with me and I am still trying to understand why.

[Trazoi]

I don't want V to do nasty things to V's family just for giggles. That would be an extremely weak way to show V had turned evil. It's my most hated attribute of over-the-top evil characters; I don't get why some people think that evil equates to complete and utter jerkass. Someone can be the blackest evil and still love their family.

If V inadvertantly does something to hurt V's family, then that might work storywise, and is what I'm more expecting to see.

[MickJay]

Agreed. The OP was asking why some people were rooting for V to actually kill/torture her family. Let me put it another way. For all their flaws, V, the ABD, the baker, the green-haired elf child, the auburn-haired elf child are all characters with further potential for interesting development. Ideally I would like to see all of them develop further - though that may be asking too much. What I do not want to see is that the only one left standing is V sans sanity after having committed unspeakable acts. That seems excessive and to me just gross. Others seem to disagree with me and I am still trying to understand why.

Not every character with potential for development has to be developed, sometimes this potential is there only to create the impression that the character will be important - so that his/her death will be more dramatic and important.

V losing everything because of his bad choice(s) would be more dramatic than a happy (not really deserved) ending; V was constantly showing that he did not learn anything through his experiences and is continuing to make same mistakes; I can't really see him getting rewarded for that.

[Illieas]

Agreed. The OP was asking why some people were rooting for V to actually kill/torture her family. Let me put it another way. For all their flaws, V, the ABD, the baker, the green-haired elf child, the auburn-haired elf child are all characters with further potential for interesting development. Ideally I would like to see all of them develop further - though that may be asking too much. What I do not want to see is that the only one left standing is V sans sanity after having committed unspeakable acts. That seems excessive and to me just gross. Others seem to disagree with me and I am still trying to understand why.

It is because you have emotion interest in V. He feel for hir in the his circumstance. Like in real life most people would think that was the most terrible thing to ever happen and wouldn't wish that on anyone

But the people you wonder about see it in a narrative. The idea is that it is story and making the best story entails drama and adversity the best of which is usually something horrific. many exist in the strip one which was the fall of Azure city worst of which was the paladin slaying each other cause of bouncing ball. She on a narrative standpoint on railroad trip to a greek tragedy. The idea is that her hubris must be punished. In a story stand point killing his family will place hir to deal with hir flaws at the very forefront and have real character development. This is not to say that happy ending will not occur as dead people can easily be resurrected or even then ghost has been able to contact people as well. But the opposite of having the demon deal their punishment later or none at all stagnates that development.

I hope this helps you see what other people are seeing

[TowerWizard]

I must humbly point out that, to the best of V's knowledge, he was only condemning his own soul by that bargain, and only for a limited time to boot. As for the fiends' greater plan, evil is trying to defeat good all the time. There is no particular reason to expect that their success with V, of all things, will immediately grant them a free ticket to world domination. Don't forget that there are forces of pure Good out there, as well.

This is like saying that someone who agrees to lend a sword to an angry murderer isn't responsible for the ensuing carnage. And the notion that there are pure goodness out there is just hogwash. V still has made a pact with devils. S/he is beyond redemption and pity for ever, even if The Seven Angels prevent hir from doing naughty things.

As I see it, V was the only one who really cared about saving the world. I think V will find Roy with the power of the Soul Splice, since this is the best chance s/he is likely to have. This is probably also the last good thing s/he will bring to the now broken Order.

Come to think about it, that may be the hidden meta-reason behind all this in the first place: to make sure V can find Roy already, so we can GET ON WITH THE MAIN STORY!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html)

[Assassin89]

As was said by Rich (I think) many time before, evil beings are allowed to love. Evil is not going to cause V to kill her family, especially since V want to get on with the main story.

[Selene]

I want the story to be interesting, but murdered innocent family members crosses the line into depressing. V's partner and children are innocents. V is the one who should reap the karmic consequences, not them.

[Narazil]

Wauw. I feel special.

Anyhoos, I'll try to defend my point of view.

I don't want to see V's family get hurt because I'm a sadistic bastard, but actually because I think it would be an incredibly awesome scene, and make OOTS even more dark and gloomy. I mean, we already have the kids hurt and on the ground, looking up on their parent stringed to the tree.
If V defeats the Dragon, and fails his/her Will save, the 3 Demondevils there gets control, and, well, they're evil. Very evil. The have free access through V to 3 most likely untainted souls.

[Kaytara]

This is like saying that someone who agrees to lend a sword to an angry murderer isn't responsible for the ensuing carnage. And the notion that there are pure goodness out there is just hogwash. V still has made a pact with devils. S/he is beyond redemption and pity for ever, even if The Seven Angels prevent hir from doing naughty things.


Not a valid comparison. If you don't know that saying "there's no such thing as fairies" causes a fairy to die somewhere, then you don't know it. You didn't consider that aspect when making the decision, so you can't be accused of having decided maliciously based on the existence of that aspect.

And I think you misunderstood my second point. I didn't mean that a bunch of Pure Good angels would swoop down and stop V before he did anything bad. I read your post to mean that Vaarsuvius shouldn't take the bargain because the fiends have stated their intentions to bring down the forces of Good. I was simply replying that Evil has always been trying to do that and V doesn't have much additional responsibility simply because this group of fiends is the same as any other in that regard.

[DigoDragon]

Evil is just much more entertaining then cookies and milk. :smallamused:
That and it just seems a fitting payment for what he bought to destroy the MBD.

[Erloas]

Not a valid comparison. If you don't know that saying "there's no such thing as fairies" causes a fairy to die somewhere, then you don't know it. You didn't consider that aspect when making the decision, so you can't be accused of having decided maliciously based on the existence of that aspect.
The difference is that giving large amounts of power to someone that is evil, which V was fully aware, has a much larger chance of directly leading to known acts of evil. Where as your example with the fairies is something completely unrelated and doesn't follow any logical conditions of existence for anything else. The chance of saying something doesn't exist causing that thing to die isn't common and isn't know, but giving a dangerous person a weapon and having that weapon used for bad things is common and expected. Now if we were in a universe where disbelief in something caused it to die and was a well known fact, and you were just disbelieving in something because you had never seen it yourself, well then there could be a directly link to cause and effect and the blame would go to the person doing the killing.


As for V, I think it is highly unlikely he will harm his family in any way. However I think it is highly likely that the dragon is not yet dead and could easily kill the family with a single AE before V can finish off the dragon. Which would also lead to the fact that even with ultimate arcane power V was still unable to save his family.
The other likely outcome is that V does save them but the splice ends before V can teleport out of the elven lands and rejoin any of the rest of the OOTS. V's family would ask V to give up adventuring because of the danger it puts V, and it seems the entire rest of the family as well, and settles down. Forcing V to choose between advancing his arcane power or having the family he made this deal to protect.

[TowerWizard]

Not a valid comparison. If you don't know that saying "there's no such thing as fairies" causes a fairy to die somewhere, then you don't know it. You didn't consider that aspect when making the decision, so you can't be accused of having decided maliciously based on the existence of that aspect.

Of course it is a valid comparison. Erloas beat me to objecting, but I felt like backing him up anyway. V isn't so that stupid s/he doesn't realise the consequences that are bound to happen (or they should, at least).