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View Full Version : Stuttgart Amok shooting ends directly at my workplace(sadly, no joke)



faerwain
2009-03-11, 12:33 PM
I don’t know if it already hit the international news, and the reports are still confused (contradictory, in some cases), but some of you maybe heard of the guy who ran amok near Stuttgart until he was shot in another city where he fled to with a hostage. It seems that he murdered 15-17 people.

Fact is: The place where he was killed after shooting two more people (and to some sources, injuring two officers) was on the other side of the street of the warehouse I work in. Approx. 20 metres from our big doors, which would have very likely be wide open if the weather would have been already sunnier.
He actually ran past 3 of my colleagues who were smoking at the door and quickly retreated indoors when they realized the gun in his hand.
(This may have likely been the point of time where he went to the car shop besides us and killed two more passer-bys, and they actually were arguing at this moment if the noises they heard before were gunshots.)

But before we go on, an important disclaimer: Do not bring politics into this thread! I want to tell you about what we experienced today, let’s talk about that and not weapon laws or the like. We all know the playground is no place for these discussions.

I simply start chronologically how it was from my point of view, and bring a summary of the yet-known data at the end:
It was our lunch break, and I was standing in the inner courtyard with two colleagues. To our right, there was the warehouse, and to the left, behind our office building and some bushes, the expressway. The first thing we noticed were two helicopters hovering over two corners of our company ground. We didn’t give it much a look, until we realized that, after the first one some moments ago, the rushing by of emergency units on the expressway didn’t stop, and they seemed to be mostly patrol cars. At this time we took a closer look and saw that they weren’t SAR as expected, but police helicopters. While we were wondering, another co-worker appeared and told us he heard at the news that an amok shooting at a school near Stuttgart had occurred, so this was probably the reason.

Now, I have to confess, while we found the news horrible, we still cracked some jokes all the time(even some time later, when the situation became more intense) and I think that’s somehow naturally as a tensionbreaker. And I, for one, recognized that I really had to let it sink in some time before understanding the situation. So, when he told us people were warned to stop for hikers in black clothes, the girls gave me a look and an “Aha!” because, you know- Metal-Fan and stuff?

But then came slowly the idea:”...Wait a minute. Why do the search our area?” We went back inside, and that was the moment where I just stood: “Now, whaaat the crap?!?”
Straight ahead, on the other side of the warehouse (a comparatively narrow part), a crowd was standing at the windows of the doors, and I could see our parking and good issue area all flashing in blue lights, covered with police cars and officers – equipped with automatic guns and bullet-proof vests.

Most of us eventually got back to work, but it became increasingly confusing and uneasy when we started to get rumours and pieces of actual information. It became quickly clear, that, yes, we seem to have the amok shooter run around outside our building.
And I can tell you, it is not a totally comforting situation when your boss walks around and tells: “All doors are kept to be closed!”

Looking through the door window you could see ambulances, and I heard something from colleagues working at the windows about bodies lying on the ground. One time you heard rumours about two people shot at the car shop, than that he shot down 2 police officers. Sadly, both seems to be true according to the latest news, though the officers were only injured
.
Mind you, this happened literally on the other side of the street, and we didn’t know anything for sure. And it’s not like our warehouse would be high security, so maybe you can imagine the situation a little. Some of our bosses seemed to have contact to the police, but it was all not really clear. Then came along, that in the big supermarket next to us(again, we are talking about 100 metres, maybe) there would have been 3 people shot dead. It was not really fun to look around for my colleague, who, as many of us, uses to go there in his break and didn’t appear back. Finally, a supervisor came along telling us “They got him”.

Problem was, there was sometimes said to be 2 or 3 of them, and my co-worker, who was one of the smoking outside from above, told me there were first two people running by, and then a third one(the one were they actually saw a gun.) Another colleague came back from upstairs and mentioned: “For having him, they still bring in busloads of SEK.” (SWAT, for you American fellows.)

Getting the order ”No one leaves until the police allows to.” didn’t help to ease our minds. At least, the missing co-worker called in with his cell-phone: He really had been at the super-market, and police wouldn’t let anybody out.
When we were finally allowed to leave, we were surprised by the fact that only cars were able to pass, all pedestrians had to remain on the company ground, which was guarded by the police.

Now, I realize that I may have not been telling it very exciting, but maybe you can imagine a little how we felt.

What was scary: - We knew that a maniac who had already killed around ten pupils at a school was running around outside armed. We saw police, ambulances and victims literally at our door. We definitively knew how not very difficult it is to enter our storage.

-We did not know if we get correct informations, rumours or made up stuff. We did not know where some colleagues were, but most probably at a place were a fatal shooting was said to have occurred.

-We did not really know, if it was over, even when we went outside. Rumours about 2 or 3 involved, backed up by what some saw. Police still bringing in reinforcements. Police only allowing cars to leave, which both indicated ongoing search, and, in an ugly thought, not wanting to give somebody new targets to shoot. Media talking about a machine gun used, when our witnesses saw a hand gun.

What colleagues witnessed: Some people heard gunshots, and saw two foreign sounding people running by, followed by one definitively armed man. Two others actually came around a corner, back from mentioned supermarket, only to run into a SWAT team rushing them back where they shortly afterwards heard the shoot-out.

What media says right now: At the moment, they still talk about a single person(hopefully, that’s true. That would make the two other guys running away from him). Motive unclear.
A 17 year old, who shoots around 10 people at the school he graduated from a year ago with one of his father guns.(Info on used weapon unclear.) Shoots the gardener of a nearby psychiaric clinic, takes a hostage and forces him/her to drive him 40 kilometres to another town where he releases the hostage. Goes into a car shop and kills two passer-bys.
While it was first said that he was shot dead, now some report he killed himself after the police wounded him.

What is still unsettling: Besides, of course, of the horror he caused: To realize how damn close we got. He passed some of us. He killed at our front door, at the shop we walk by every day. Some higher temperature, and we would have been sitting outside, having the big doors open where another hundred people would have worked and been easy targets. It’s the supermarket we go to every day.

Damn.

randman22222
2009-03-11, 12:54 PM
Words are failing me here, but what I can say is that I sympathise with you. This will probably be the most traumatic thing to occur in your life, won't it? :smalleek:

I have no idea where blame should be put. Did society do this to this person?
Or, were it another society, would he still have gone and killed random people?
This isn't a new phenomenon; the concept of Amok precedes recorded history.
It's a morbid, sick mystery. :smallannoyed:

Dirk Kris
2009-03-11, 01:06 PM
I heard about this news story on the radio here this morning, in the US. They said it was the worst school-related shooting in Germany's history.

Faerwain, I would have been terrified. And reading this, even knowing that it's over, my heart was still pounding. I'm sure I'm not alone in being glad that you are still with us, and sorry that you had to go through such a harrowing experience.

*hugs* from across the Playground and the big pond.

Lycan 01
2009-03-11, 05:37 PM
Wow. Thats horrible... But its good to know that you came out of it okay, at least. :smallsmile:

Headless_Ninja
2009-03-11, 06:21 PM
I can't imagine how terrified you must have been. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's really, really glad you're both Ok and feeling able to talk about it. Adding some *hugs* of my own.
I really feel for you, and for everyone else affected by this terrible, terrible crime.

Trog
2009-03-12, 02:09 AM
That's truly horrible. I can only imagine how surreal it must have been... must still be, for you. Know that I'm glad that you and those closest to you escaped any physical harm, faerwain. Thank you for telling us. Hopefully that will help you put this behind you as quickly as you may.


I have no idea where blame should be put. Did society do this to this person?
Or, were it another society, would he still have gone and killed random people?
Faerwain lives in the very same society and he doesn't go around shooting people. The shooter is obviously to blame here. And no other. :smallannoyed:

Felixaar
2009-03-12, 02:14 AM
:smalleek: glad you are okay.

also,



Faerwain lives in the very same society and he doesn't go around shooting people. The shooter is obviously to blame here. And no other. :smallannoyed:

I agree.

randman22222
2009-03-12, 07:24 AM
That's truly horrible. I can only imagine how surreal it must have been... must still be, for you. Know that I'm glad that you and those closest to you escaped any physical harm, faerwain. Thank you for telling us. Hopefully that will help you put this behind you as quickly as you may.


Faerwain lives in the very same society and he doesn't go around shooting people. The shooter is obviously to blame here. And no other. :smallannoyed:

I wish it was that simple...

Syka
2009-03-12, 11:42 AM
Rand, maybe some people pushed him over the edge, but ultimately the blame and responsibility lays with the person. He is the one that chose to pick up the gun to kill innocent people, he chose to deal with his problems in a violent manner.

I play violent video games, listen to metal (and other 'violent') music, and I have been picked on. I know many other people who fit the same profile. But not matter how you frame it- it's the persons fault. Maybe they had some sort of psychiatric problem, but that isn't societies fault.



faerwain, I'm so glad you are OK. :smalleek: Stuff like that is frightening. At least he can't do any more damage.

randman22222
2009-03-12, 11:51 AM
Rand, maybe some people pushed him over the edge, but ultimately the blame and responsibility lays with the person. He is the one that chose to pick up the gun to kill innocent people, he chose to deal with his problems in a violent manner.

I play violent video games, listen to metal (and other 'violent') music, and I have been picked on. I know many other people who fit the same profile. But not matter how you frame it- it's the persons fault. Maybe they had some sort of psychiatric problem, but that isn't societies fault.



faerwain, I'm so glad you are OK. :smalleek: Stuff like that is frightening. At least he can't do any more damage.

If he had some sort of mental disorder, then no, it really wasn't any society's fault. I never claimed that the fault lands squarely on society's shoulders, but you can't say that it all falls on him. Just the majority. Society DOES exert pressures on individuals; no one can deny that. Certain individuals may be more or less affected by that. Society's pressures are far from reasonable. In fact, a lot of society's demands, when not random and/or neutral, are wrong.

That said, I do not know the whole circumstances, but if the person was relatively sane, then we can't say that we, as a society, aren't at least slightly to blame. We can't run away from our own shortcomings. :smallannoyed:

Jack Squat
2009-03-12, 12:29 PM
If he had some sort of mental disorder, then no, it really wasn't any society's fault. I never claimed that the fault lands squarely on society's shoulders, but you can't say that it all falls on him. Just the majority. Society DOES exert pressures on individuals; no one can deny that. Certain individuals may be more or less affected by that. Society's pressures are far from reasonable. In fact, a lot of society's demands, when not random and/or neutral, are wrong.

That said, I do not know the whole circumstances, but if the person was relatively sane, then we can't say that we, as a society, aren't at least slightly to blame. We can't run away from our own shortcomings. :smallannoyed:

Because as a society we could have known and prevented it from happening....right.

Latest article I've found says that he did give a warning...on an internet chat room to someone in Bavaria hours before it happened. It also says the person he was talking with didn't take him seriously and replied "TLL", which, according to the article is synonymous with LOL. I've never seen the use before, and can't find it on a quick search, can anyone verify this?

It also mentions that 15 of his father's guns, and violent video games were found. I think that the "society is at fault" argument is about as valid as "violent video games" or "it's the gun's fault" are.

The societal problem I see is that he wasn't taken seriously on the Internet. Although even if he was, he probably couldn't have been stopped in time. I mean, I guess it's possible, but unless they knew what town he was from and what school he went to, it'd be practically futile.

There's nothing mentioning past psychological problems, or anything that could have been an indicator, apart from the chat log. I didn't know him (obviously), so I can't say if his behavior had changed any, or if he just pushed all his hate in until he couldn't make a logical decision anymore. It's a tragedy, but one with no clear cause.

I agree with everyone saying it's his fault. Until people step forward saying his behavior changed, or there were other signs, I'm not going to change that opinion.

faerwain: I can't think of much to say; I know what it's like to have that security blanket removed (cop was shot and killed at my high school two years ago, halloween night). It's going to take a bit to settle back into the norm, but just continue on with your day as best you can, keeping this event as a reminder of how short and precious or time on earth really is.

Dragonrider
2009-03-12, 12:33 PM
This is kind of nature vs. nurture, isn't it? :smalltongue:

I mean, "society" can mean any number of things. His familial background most likely had some influence on his actions, and that coupled with his own probable mental instability produces issues. But not always issues on this scale.

Trog
2009-03-12, 12:44 PM
Oh what complete bull****. :smallfurious: Yeah he had a mental disorder all right. The kind that makes you go and kill a bunch of people!

Is life hard? You bet your ass it is. But did society make him load the weapon? No. Did society make him pull the trigger? No. Did society make him go to the next location and pull the trigger again? No.

That is the last I'll say on it. I prefer to show faerwain, his coworkers, and those people who got killed some respect and drop this ridiculous discussion altogether. :smallannoyed:

faerwain
2009-03-12, 05:34 PM
Okay, here is going to stand a larger text over the weekend, but the server really hates me these days.

A quick,"but honest "Thank you" to all of you, and I will write more soon, if server will (and working early shift ended)

The Neoclassic
2009-03-12, 06:45 PM
But did society make him load the weapon? No. Did society make him pull the trigger? No. Did society make him go to the next location and pull the trigger again? No.

I don't think that is what was being suggested.


That is the last I'll say on it. I prefer to show faerwain, his coworkers, and those people who got killed some respect and drop this ridiculous discussion altogether. :smallannoyed:

I don't think the discussion is ridiculous. To the contrary, understanding why horrendous crimes are committed is vital, if only to try to prevent such tragedies from occuring in the future. This is the case even if all of the blame is 100% the shooter's and no societal influences nudged him in the slightest; in such a case, how to identify such individuals and keep them away from weapons, for example, could be valuable. However, you are correct in that this isn't really the place for such a discussion (not politics, necessarily, but too associated with strong emotions and personal beliefs for probably being allowed on this forum, not to mention it doesn't fit with the main purpose of this thread).

This is extraordinarily sad, and my condolences to your community. I can't imagine how my own town would be impacted if a dozen people were shot by such a madman.

Syka
2009-03-12, 06:53 PM
The reason I'm inclined to say that it wasn't societies fault is the fact that stuff like this has been happening for millenia. It is able to happen on a larger scale nowadays due to technology (cars, weapons, etc). But the ultimate human nature behind it (that there are just some people that will, in the words of Alfred, want to watch the world burn) hasn't changed.

Some people just don't have the self-restraint or ability to regualte their emotions or thought processes.

Society can put pressure to be a certain way but I've never seen society pressure someone to become a mass murderer.

It's not nature vs. nurture. It's a matter of saying "Video games/society/music/whatever caused action X to happen" when really Person A chose to do action X.

It's the age old argument- do violent video games make kids more violent or are violent children more drawn to violent video games. Either way, unless there is a mental problem, the video game isn't going to encourage you to pick up a gun and kill your classmates.

Classmates are a lot different then zombies or soldiers.

Cheers~

rankrath
2009-03-12, 07:15 PM
I don't think the discussion is ridiculous. To the contrary, understanding why horrendous crimes are committed is vital, if only to try to prevent such tragedies from occuring in the future. This is the case even if all of the blame is 100% the shooter's and no societal influences nudged him in the slightest; in such a case, how to identify such individuals and keep them away from weapons, for example, could be valuable. However, you are correct in that this isn't really the place for such a discussion (not politics, necessarily, but too associated with strong emotions and personal beliefs for probably being allowed on this forum, not to mention it doesn't fit with the main purpose of this thread).


^ this. But on the subject of why, I did a paper on massacres for my psych class, and concluded that it took a number of different factors. The most important was a mixture of crazy (not enough shooters have survived to figure out what), but close behind were a broken/abusive home and social life. This isolates the shooter, as he/she has no place to seek refuge. In some cases, drug addictions were contributing factors. But basically, take a person predisposed towards violence, remove any safe harbor at home, remove friends as a support network, and you get a tragedy.

My condolences to those who lost dear ones in this tragedy.

KilltheToy
2009-03-12, 07:46 PM
Ah, that. I heard about that just today, actually. The weapon was, according to Wikipedia, a Berretta 92FS, which is a really good pistol. The US and French armies both use it as their standard issue side-arm.

Personally, I was kina irked by the newspaper account of the shooting. It quoted a 17-year old named Aki who said he played Counter-Strike with the shooter. It described Counter-Strike as "a game where you kill people to complete missions" :smallmad:.
They're terrorists! Is it not OK to shoot them? Even the terrorists have a reason for shooting to kill. They're being shot at by the CTs, so it makes sense they'd, I don't know, SHOOT BACK?!.
But that's a discussion for another day.

LCR
2009-03-12, 08:07 PM
I don't know whether this is just selective media coverage, but why do these shootings seem to occur almost exclusively in the US and in Germany?
I can't think of any easy explanation, considering the differences between both countries.
And what exactly put him over the edge?
Why did the family or rather the father, who's member of the local shooter's club (Schützenverein) own a collection of fifteen (!) guns?
How can one prevent these shootings? Is that possible at all?
There are many questions that need to be answered in time to come.

I also find it rather irritating, how confusing the media coverage was, heavily relying on sources like Twitter, which led to rumours being spread over supposedly reliable sources like DPA or AP.

Jack Squat
2009-03-12, 08:37 PM
I believe there was one in Finland last year. I'm sure they happen in other countries, but they tend not to get reported.

15 guns isn't really that much, at least not over here...especially if he was interested in the history of old military surplus rifles (Springfield, Mosin Nagant, Mauser -from several different countries-, FAL, ...). Add to that a target rifle, a shotgun or two (slug/hunting and trap/skeet), a .22LR pistol and Rifle from when he was learning/teaching his kids, and at least the 92 F/S, probably one or two more in the way of pistols.


I don't think we could prevent these shootings. You can't really get into someone's head and see whether or not they'll snap, and if so, when. I mean, even it were possible to keep people from having guns, they'd just resort to knives, home-made explosives, or a pointed stick.

The best we can do is minimize what happens, and it looks like that the school going into lockdown did do that to a point. I guess I'll shut up about herding the students like cattle into tiny rooms with no escape then.

Lupy
2009-03-12, 08:53 PM
Wow. :smalleek: I feel it for you, my Uncle was at Virginia Tech during the killings last year, and we didn't know where he was, we were terrified. :smallfrown:

Oh, and it did make international news, we heard about it Stateside.

And I'm glad you and your friends are okay Faerwain.

Rutskarn
2009-03-12, 09:14 PM
Holy crap, that's terrifying.

I really, really can't think of anything else to add. I don't have to say that I'm glad you're alright; that's pretty much assumed.

Still, I can only imagine how disturbing that whole experience was.

Groundhog
2009-03-12, 10:25 PM
I'm not going to debate what caused the guy to do it, since it's in his own head and we'll probably never find out for sure.

Faerwain, I'm really sorry that you had to experience that. Something very similar happened to me last year, so I know how terrifying it is.