Some things that people are forgetting...

[Vaarsuvius4181]

1) Just because V used a 10th lvl spell, that does not mean he is not epic

2) Everyone is complaining about the "no punchline" and this is DEFINETALY not the first comic without one, and he said in dungeon crawling fools that he would do that sometimes

3)quickened disintegrate is a very powerful spell, so top saying that it didnt even affect the dragon

PS id appreciate if people didnt just shoot down theory's because quite a long time ago i said that V would get black robes as a result of a raistlin shoutout, and people said that was a dumb idea. So i am respectfully saying dont shoot them down so quickly.

Thanks for taking the time to read, and Have a nice day.

[MammonAzrael]

Yes, it is possible that V did not cast that quickened Disintergrate with a 10th level slot, if he has some way of reducing the SL increase of Quicken Spell. However, if he does not, and used a 10th level slot, then he is indeed epic, since you can't get 10th level slots pre-epic. And considering that he has three epic level souls spliced to him, and gains their power, its rather odd to think he isn't epic. That doesn't mean that he gained knowledge of any epic spells, but since he obviously learned Disjunction because of the splice, it's safe to assume that he learned epic spells, as well.

Quickened Disintegrate is a powerful spell, but pales compared to other options if V's only goal was to dispatch the ABD ASAP. Disintegrate caps out at 40d6 damage ~ 140 damage (240 max). And that's on a failed save. ABDs have much more HP than that. Yes, the QD affected the ABD, but not in any significant manner, and probably was cast specifically because the ABD requested it when they first met, not out of a desire to disable/kill the ABD.

[King of Nowhere]

Finger of death outdamage disintegrate both in case of passed and failed save, but V already cast a spell that level. He needed a quickened spell, and maybe he can't quicken 7th level spell. Now, assuming the dragon saves with a natural 2, disintegrate has an average expectation of 22,44 (including the touch attack, assuming it hits in a 2) damage. I don't know the elemental resistances of an ABD, but adsuming none a maximized quickened fireball would have an expectation of 31,5 damage.
Yet a quickened disintegrate is much more spectacular, has a deeper significance for both V and the dragon (morale can be taken into account), and you can hope for massive damage if you're lucky. That's enough to compensate.
Surprisingly, the single strongest spell at hand would have been a maximized, empowered, and quickened magic missle, for 35 damage.
Can you think of a better quickened spell I missed?

[Ozark]

"No punchline"? What, am I seriously the only one thought "Quickened Disintegrate" was hilarious?

[Mr. Pin]

Finger of death outdamage disintegrate both in case of passed and failed save, but V already cast a spell that level. He needed a quickened spell, and maybe he can't quicken 7th level spell. Now, assuming the dragon saves with a natural 2, disintegrate has an average expectation of 22,44 (including the touch attack, assuming it hits in a 2) damage. I don't know the elemental resistances of an ABD, but adsuming none a maximized quickened fireball would have an expectation of 31,5 damage.
Yet a quickened disintegrate is much more spectacular, has a deeper significance for both V and the dragon (morale can be taken into account), and you can hope for massive damage if you're lucky. That's enough to compensate.
Surprisingly, the single strongest spell at hand would have been a maximized, empowered, and quickened magic missle, for 35 damage.
Can you think of a better quickened spell I missed?

The ABD really won't make the save- not with the caster level on V. So the 40d6 or whatever from the disintegrate beats 35 pretty easily, and it beats the 60 from a Maxed quickened fireball pretty good, too.

[MammonAzrael]

Can you think of a better quickened spell I missed?

Momento Mori (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/momentoMori.htm), an epic spell that Haera Bloodsoak is implied to know in the fourth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

In the non-epic world, a Quickened Hold Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonster.htm) would ensure the ABD doesn't go anywhere, and also prevents it from teleporting, breathing acid to finish off V's family, etc.

A Quickened Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm), likewise, would have nearly the same effect, except that V wouldn't be able to gloat and show off his new power to the ABD.

A Quickened Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) would've been hilarious, especially if the ABD became the same type of lizard V had been.

A Quickened, Heightened Mind Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindFog.htm) could have helped insure that future Will SoD landed.

A Quickened Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) around his family could also work, assuming Rich ruled that due to it's large diameter it could protect all three.

Hell, one of the best options would be a Quickened Reach Shivering Touch. :smalltongue: But I would be surprised if a spell of that cheesiness was used. But really, V should focus on spells that don't allow saves at all, since the ABD has great save modifiers.


The ABD really won't make the save- not with the caster level on V. So the 40d6 or whatever from the disintegrate beats 35 pretty easily, and it beats the 60 from a Maxed quickened fireball pretty good, too.

Save DCs don't care about V's CL. It's still going to be 10 + Spell Level (6) + V's Int modifier (6-7) = 22 or 23. And an ABD has a +23 to Fort saves.

[Tokiko Mima]

Can you think of a better quickened spell I missed?

Shivering Touch? I think V just used Disintegrate for ironies sake. Which means he can throw away 10th level spells just to make a point. Considering V's caster level is probably closer to 100 than it is to 50 that means the Dragon should run right now. On the off chance V decides to help his children instead of slay the dragon, ABD might make it to someplace V would find difficult to get to like say the Lower levels of the Abyss.

[Silverraptor]

"No punchline"? What, am I seriously the only one thought "Quickened Disintegrate" was hilarious?

Also as mentioned in a different thread, the dragon said, "Say Disintigrate again Varrsuvius, for me" which V did. I was cracking up when someone directed my notice to it.

[Warren Dew]

I think V just used Disintegrate for ironies sake. Which means he can throw away 10th level spells just to make a point.

It would also make the last little panel a very subtle punch line.

In fairness, damage rate is more important than spell slot efficiency here. The dragon can still do a lot of damage too, and teleporting away might be problematic for Vaarsuvius.

I think tactically, a quickened dimensional anchor would be better, but I guess we'll see in the next comic.

[Finwe]

Save DCs don't care about V's CL. It's still going to be 10 + Spell Level (6) + V's Int modifier (6-7) = 22 or 23. And an ABD has a +23 to Fort saves.

It's entirely plausible that the save will be based on the int modifier of the soul whose slot the spell came from.

[Selene]

quite a long time ago i said that V would get black robes as a result of a raistlin shoutout, and people said that was a dumb idea.

Really? Then they're dumb people. :smalltongue: I would have been sorely disappointed if he didn't get the black robes. I've been waiting for that ever since I decided he was neutral.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Save DCs don't care about V's CL. It's still going to be 10 + Spell Level (6) + V's Int modifier (6-7) = 22 or 23. And an ABD has a +23 to Fort saves.
I'd say it's likely that the soul splice would have an effect here. The spells are coming from the other casters, why not use their intelligence/charisma mod, Spell Focus, and so on. Heck, there might even be a simple "just because" boost to the DC as a side effect of the splice. This is supposed to represent the the ultimate in arcane power, after all.

[MammonAzrael]

It's entirely plausible that the save will be based on the int modifier of the soul whose slot the spell came from.


I'd say it's likely that the soul splice would have an effect here. The spells are coming from the other casters, why not use their intelligence/charisma mod, Spell Focus, and so on. Heck, there might even be a simple "just because" boost to the DC as a side effect of the splice. This is supposed to represent the the ultimate in arcane power, after all.

Very true. The save DCs probably are based on their original caster's mods and feat, and thus are probably a good 5 to 10 higher than V's spells. But they still don't care about V's current caster level.

[Insert Name Here]

As far as the dragon teleporting out goes, the sorcerer could have the counterspell feat chain (among them immediate counterspell) stopping it's escape.

[magic9mushroom]

As far as the dragon teleporting out goes, the sorcerer could have the counterspell feat chain (among them immediate counterspell) stopping it's escape.

Are you referring to Reactive Counterspell?

[Insert Name Here]

Probably, yes. I'm not familiar with that kind of build or the feats that build it.

[Surprise!]

Disintegration is probably her favorite attack spell. As a wizard who has barred evocation, there are not many imposing options. You can see the smile on her face as she gets to add the spell in; getting the last word in is always satisfying. I like to think she gets a particular joy out of the act of disintegrating her targets.

Not that doing so with the power to would be an evil act. More...neutral.

[King of Nowhere]

I didn't knew of that memento mori. Basically, it's a quickened finger of death with a higher saving throw. Yeah, it would have been really effective, with more than 50% chance of terminating the dragon (I don't wnat to know how someone can possibly get a 75 on spellcraft, though). But it is not so strongly implied that the necromancer had it ("ended lives with but a tought" may signify that she wouldn't think twice before killing).
The other spells do nothing at all if the dragon saves.
Quickened dimensional anchor could have been a good choice, seeing as how the dragon can now escape.

[magic9mushroom]

Disintegration is probably her favorite attack spell. As a wizard who has barred evocation, there are not many imposing options. You can see the smile on her face as she gets to add the spell in; getting the last word in is always satisfying. I like to think she gets a particular joy out of the act of disintegrating her targets.

Not that doing so with the power to would be an evil act. More...neutral.

Barred evocation? She's SPECIALISED in evocation.

[MammonAzrael]

I didn't knew of that memento mori. Basically, it's a quickened finger of death with a higher saving throw. Yeah, it would have been really effective, with more than 50% chance of terminating the dragon (I don't wnat to know how someone can possibly get a 75 on spellcraft, though). But it is not so strongly implied that the necromancer had it ("ended lives with but a tought" may signify that she wouldn't think twice before killing).
The other spells do nothing at all if the dragon saves.
Quickened dimensional anchor could have been a good choice, seeing as how the dragon can now escape.

Yes, Dimensional Anchor would've been a fine choice to Quicken, but the problem with it is that it leaves the ABD full functional on the next round. The reason I suggested the spells I did is because the neutralize the ABD, ensuring that V's family isn't nuked in either crossfire or desperation.

As for Memento Mori, its true that the hint is open to interpretation, but given that she is an epic level Necromancer, it would be surprising if she didn't know it, even without the hint that she might. As for making the DC, it is very possible that V can't make any epic spell DCs, since s/he doesn't have access to epic level magic items to boost hir Spellcraft. (And s/he isn't really regarded as a good optimizer, so it's highly unlikely for V to have a crazy high Spellcraft anyways)

[DimJim]

And for people talking about V using dimensional anchor first, Disjunction makes the target do a Will save with a DC of 25, and if you fail it, you lose spellcasting abilities forever, with no way to get them back.

[MammonAzrael]

And for people talking about V using dimensional anchor first, Disjunction makes the target do a Will save with a DC of 25, and if you fail it, you lose spellcasting abilities forever, with no way to get them back.


That is only if you disjunction an artifact.
I believe it is the person who cast the disjunction on the artifact that risks losing their casting abilities, not anyone else.

[King of Nowhere]

Having casually read the text of disjunction last week, I can rectify that Disjunction has a small chance of destroing an artifact, and in that case, you have to make a saving throw or lose spellcasting. Unless they changed it, since I've got only the 3.0 manual.


Yes, Dimensional Anchor would've been a fine choice to Quicken, but the problem with it is that it leaves the ABD full functional on the next round. The reason I suggested the spells I did is because the neutralize the ABD, ensuring that V's family isn't nuked in either crossfire or desperation.

As for Memento Mori, its true that the hint is open to interpretation, but given that she is an epic level Necromancer, it would be surprising if she didn't know it, even without the hint that she might. As for making the DC, it is very possible that V can't make any epic spell DCs, since s/he doesn't have access to epic level magic items to boost hir Spellcraft.

Yes, I agree with almost everything. I still find the chances that she has memento mori are quite even, because this is oots and memento mori may not exist at all. If v had it, it would have been foolish not to cast it, so I bet that if the necromancer knew it, V still cannot use it.
It is also possible that V gained a lot of powers, but not full knowledge of them. Like the monster in the darkness could cause an heartquake, but didn't knew it, maybe V don't know what epic spells he can cast.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

"No punchline"? What, am I seriously the only one thought "Quickened Disintegrate" was hilarious?

Apparently.

[Mr. Pin]

Very true. The save DCs probably are based on their original caster's mods and feat, and thus are probably a good 5 to 10 higher than V's spells. But they still don't care about V's current caster level.

Yeah, my bad, a grave error on my part. a better phrase might have been "overall save DC". even with a +23 to fort (possibly even more with the sorcerer levels?) 10 plus 10 (the spell level) plus another 10 for the relevant ability (assuming a very epic caster) and adding another 5 for feats, items, or other means of DC buffing, equals 35, which seems like a reasonably hard save to make, even for the ABD. Plus, it seems in line with the story to assume a failure.

[Arachu]

Isn't V a Diviner who barred Conjuration? I remember V being a Diviner :smallyuk:

...I'm pretty sure...

[Kroy]

Isn't V a Diviner who barred Conjuration? I remember V being a Diviner :smallyuk:

...I'm pretty sure...
S/He is an evoker who barred necromancy and conjuration. Refer to CLG for more details.

[Mando Knight]

S/He is an evoker who barred necromancy and conjuration.

Hence why two of the spliced souls are a Conjurer and a Necromancer: like the Sorcerer/Archmage covers V's natural weakness in Spells Per Day and preparation, the other two provide (quite powerful) spells that V can't cast on V's own.

[Ariko]

Apparently.

Well I found it funny too. Because of the dragon's first words to V on the island. As already mentioned in this thread.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

plus 10 (the spell level)
No. Metamagic feats don't actually change the level of the spell. So although it takes up a 10th-level spell slot, quickened disintegrate remains just a 6th-level spell.

The exception to the above is, of course, Heighten Spell, whose sole function is to raise the level of the spell to which it is applied, resulting in things such as a higher save DC.

[Dixieboy]

No. Metamagic feats don't actually change the level of the spell.
Heighten spell does :smallbiggrin:

Anyway: I have a thing that some people also seem to have missed when talking about V against the ABD, V is just a squishy as he was before, the dragon needs about one round with good rolls to put him in the negative hit points zone.

V is a glass ninja, he is completely OP as long as you don't actually hit him.

[Prak]

"No punchline"? What, am I seriously the only one thought "Quickened Disintegrate" was hilarious?

No, I thought it was hilarious too, along with the look on the dragon's face when her AMF got shattered.

[Caractacus]

Heighten spell does :smallbiggrin:

Anyway: I have a thing that some people also seem to have missed when talking about V against the ABD, V is just a squishy as he was before, the dragon needs about one round with good rolls to put him in the negative hit points zone.

V is a glass ninja, he is completely OP as long as you don't actually hit him.

But couldn't V respond in any way to such a physical attack? The dragon does still have to close the distance to a flying V after all.

I was under the impression that one of the major reasons that V was trounced on the island was that there was no spell-casting available when the dragon got close. Can't V cast defensively? (I have no clear grasp of the rules though - I played AD&D, me...)

[Flickerdart]

But couldn't V respond in any way to such a physical attack? The dragon does still have to close the distance to a flying V after all.

I was under the impression that one of the major reasons that V was trounced on the island was that there was no spell-casting available when the dragon got close. Can't V cast defensively? (I have no clear grasp of the rules though - I played AD&D, me...)
Casting defensively doesn't stop an enemy with superior speed from catching up to you and grappling you. Once in a grapple, it's a lot harder to cast, even with epic spells.

[Prak]

Casting defensively doesn't stop an enemy with superior speed from catching up to you and grappling you. Once in a grapple, it's a lot harder to cast, even with epic spells.

unless you have momento mori

[Yuki Akuma]

Casting defensively doesn't stop an enemy with superior speed from catching up to you and grappling you. Once in a grapple, it's a lot harder to cast, even with epic spells.

Unless that epic spell is Let Go Of Me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/letGoOfMe.htm).

[Optimystik]

Ugh, of all the terrible ways to escape a grapple. Don't you guys realize Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensiondoor.htm) has no somatic component?

[factotum]

Anyway: I have a thing that some people also seem to have missed when talking about V against the ABD, V is just a squishy as he was before, the dragon needs about one round with good rolls to put him in the negative hit points zone.


We don't actually know that...for all we know V's effective character level is 100 or so (not over 9000--that would be silly :smallsmile:), giving him as many hit points as the dragon. Furthermore, even if V *is* still squishy as he was before, the dragon wasn't able to kill him on the island using a full body slam with all her weight behind it...

[Estrosiath]

There are no rules for body slamming, except for Bull rush. In order to attack V, the dragon will need to move (which means he will only get one attack during that round instead of his full complement), whereas D can tranquilly move normally while casting two spells perround.

The thing that is certainly more difficult to deal with for V is the breath weapon... Unless he teleported somewhere else and cast a few defensive spells before popping in.