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View Full Version : It's not an ANCIENT black dragon folks! Get it right!



Estrosiath
2009-03-12, 12:29 AM
Black dragons cast spells as sorcerers.
Sorcerers get access to 6th level spells at 12th level.
An ancient black dragon's CL is 11th level.
A WYRM black dragon's CL is 13th level.

Ergo, the Black dragon mother is a Wyrm black dragon. More hit points, higher fort save, etc...

Unless by sheer happenstance it's an Ancient black dragon with one level of sorcerer. But if you go down that path, it could also be a hatchling with 12th levels of sorcerer...

The Linker
2009-03-12, 12:34 AM
Well, the imp himself does say it's an ancient black dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) -- of course, he might not be especially knowledgeable about dragons and the ages thereof from a glance, but still.

Also on the same page, the dragon says she has a "passion for the arcane arts... even morese than others of my kind." I always wondered what that meant. I think that could be Rich's way of telling us she IS an ancient black dragon with one (or more!) sorcerer level(s).

magic9mushroom
2009-03-12, 12:39 AM
Black dragons cast spells as sorcerers.
Sorcerers get access to 6th level spells at 12th level.
An ancient black dragon's CL is 11th level.
A WYRM black dragon's CL is 13th level.

Ergo, the Black dragon mother is a Wyrm black dragon. More hit points, higher fort save, etc...

Unless by sheer happenstance it's an Ancient black dragon with one level of sorcerer. But if you go down that path, it could also be a hatchling with 12th levels of sorcerer...

It isn't sheer happenstance, it SAYS that it's especially interested in the arcane arts. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that means class levels of sorcerer. 3 levels by the way, Greater Teleport is 7th level.

And the Imp calls it ancient.

Porthos
2009-03-12, 12:49 AM
magic9mushroom and The Linker are exactly right. It IS an Ancient Black Dragon.

Qarr identifies her as such (and really, he ought to know since he deals with Big Evil Critters) and the Ancient Black Dragon herself says that she is more skilled in magic than normal for her race.

I think a certain Monty Python skit about people complaining about inaccuracies (http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode16.htm#6) comes to mind right about now. :smallbiggrin:

BlueWizard
2009-03-12, 02:21 AM
VERY dangerous!

Greep
2009-03-12, 02:28 AM
{Scrubbed}

BlueWizard
2009-03-12, 02:30 AM
Tread softly now.

Estrosiath
2009-03-12, 02:53 AM
My mistake :) Guess it has a few levels of sorcerer!

Feefers
2009-03-12, 03:22 AM
I think it was mentioned before, but I wouldn't personally bring up a black dragons age, she might be touchy about it...

The Glyphstone
2009-03-12, 09:29 AM
Considering that draconic society (such as it is) and social status (among themselves) weighs pretty heavily on age, she probably wouldn't mind. Her weight, ont he other hand....tread carefully there...

Laughing Dragon
2009-03-12, 09:49 AM
So ... is it completly unreasonable to suggest that the Dragon might have levels in WIZARD? Actually composing lists of spells that apply to a specific situation? Or even a Sorcerer/Wizard multiclass? That would certianally explain the "more skilled in magic" comment.

Estrosiath
2009-03-12, 10:00 AM
If she's an ancient dragon and already took 3 levels of sorcerer, I don't think she'd take wizard levels. Not much of a point in it really when you have natural sorcerer spellcasting abilities.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-03-12, 10:06 AM
So ... is it completly unreasonable to suggest that the Dragon might have levels in WIZARD? Actually composing lists of spells that apply to a specific situation? Or even a Sorcerer/Wizard multiclass? That would certianally explain the "more skilled in magic" comment.
Wizard spellcasting does not stack with racial sorcerous spellcasting. So for wizardry to come in at a level where it would actually mean something, she'd have to have so many levels as to be ridiculously Epic herself.

Why would she have to have Wizard levels anyway?

The Glyphstone
2009-03-12, 11:31 AM
Probably because of the stereotype that wizards have to study for their magical power, but sorcerers just randomly develop new spells without actually having to work for them. Not like a spontaneous sorcerer could do research on how to hone their natural talents or anything.

Kyouhen
2009-03-12, 03:43 PM
Having just read through the Draconomicon for unrelated reasons, it's actually impossible for her to be a Wyrm. They said her son was at most a Young Adult, which puts him at 100 years tops. Ancient female dragons are infertile, and the Ancient category lasts about 200 years. She can't be any older than 900. :smalltongue:

King of Nowhere
2009-03-12, 06:00 PM
You know, the monster manual report the average stats of a common monster. There can be monster with uber stats (like adventurers are humanoids with better stats than average), or monsters with experience and thus extra levels or hit dice.
Be creative! Don't limit yourself to what is written in a book!

hamishspence
2009-03-12, 06:03 PM
yes- an Elite Ancient dragon with levels in Sorcerer (and best stat in Charisma) would be better at magic, though less tough, than a Wyrm.

GSFB
2009-03-12, 06:06 PM
The ABD could also have levels in a Prestige Class that offers +1 caster level benefits that stack with her inherent racial caster level. There are several listed in the Draconomicon that might apply.

hamishspence
2009-03-12, 06:11 PM
also, once its past 20HD (or Old, in Draconomicon: I'd say, whichever comes first) it can take epic feats. Most aren't all that powerful, unless its caster level is much higher than we've seen evidence for.

Volkov
2009-03-12, 07:38 PM
I'm kind of hoping that it has at least a ECL of 30 so that it can provide a bit of a fight for V. But I know that won't happen.

Warren Dew
2009-03-12, 10:14 PM
Also on the same page, the dragon says she has a "passion for the arcane arts... even morese than others of my kind." I always wondered what that meant. I think that could be Rich's way of telling us she IS an ancient black dragon with one (or more!) sorcerer level(s).

Nice catch ... and some people say the strip has nothing to do with D&D mechanics. I really like the way the mechanics are used to deepen the narrative.

factotum
2009-03-13, 02:43 AM
Not like a spontaneous sorcerer could do research on how to hone their natural talents or anything.

Well, we know that in OotS-world sorcerers most certainly CAN research spells at least--remember "Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage"?

BlueWizard
2009-03-13, 02:45 AM
I'm ready for more!!! :smallbiggrin:

Yehomer
2009-03-13, 04:25 AM
also, once its past 20HD (or Old, in Draconomicon: I'd say, whichever comes first) it can take epic feats. Most aren't all that powerful, unless its caster level is much higher than we've seen evidence for.

Even if she can take epic feats, she can't take epic spellcasting.

Prerequisite
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.



So even if she does have some Epic feats, no epic spells for her...

Cantrip
2009-03-13, 04:26 AM
Or it could just be an Ancient Dragon with the Loredrake "Template" (+2 Sorcerer spellcasting) and 1 level in Sorcerer. Doesn't matter either way.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-13, 06:06 AM
Probably because of the stereotype that wizards have to study for their magical power, but sorcerers just randomly develop new spells without actually having to work for them. Not like a spontaneous sorcerer could do research on how to hone their natural talents or anything.

That's sarcasm, right?

DrGonzo
2009-03-13, 06:15 AM
That's sarcasm, right?

I sure hope so, or maybe he's used to playing really lazy sorcerers..

Laughing Dragon
2009-03-13, 08:18 AM
My only point is that the static nature of a sorcerer's spell list cannot, by definition, equal the flexability of a wizard.

I prefer playing sorcerers, btw ... I just admit their limitations.