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Zergrusheddie
2009-03-12, 01:48 AM
Does such a thing exist? Scorching Ray is one of my favorite spells and I think that a Ray specialist would be pretty nifty. I understand it would not be as efficient as THF Fighter or Batman, but I was just wondering if anyone has ever done something like it?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Ascension
2009-03-12, 01:56 AM
I give you Rayman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78410) and Rayman 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79347) for other (3.5) explorations of this general idea.

Kris Strife
2009-03-12, 01:58 AM
Probably warmage for the base for the added damage.

RTGoodman
2009-03-12, 02:07 AM
Probably warmage for the base for the added damage.

Eh, probably not. Warmage could be okay, but Wizard is probably still your best bet. There's a lot of support for rays out there (feats, PrCs, and I think there's even a spell called tracer ray or something that gives you a bonus on ranged touch attacks with rays), and Wizards have the added bonus of, well, being good at everything.

The probably build to start with would be like Tippy's Cindy build - I think that's the one that uses a combination of various metamagics and stuff to do like a bajillion d6 damage with orb of fire or something. I can't seem to find the actual build, though, so you'll have to wait on someone else get you a link.

Frosty
2009-03-12, 02:31 AM
Cindy probably favors Enervation over Orb of Fire. :smalltongue:

RTGoodman
2009-03-12, 02:34 AM
Cindy probably favors Enervation over Orb of Fire. :smalltongue:

I could have sworn I've seen it mentioned with something like a maximized empowered split ray fell-draining orb of fire or something. I think the orb is one of those no-save-and-sucks (if you hit, it's damage and some condition, basically), and it ends up being a ridiculous amount of damage, a negative level or something, and stuff like that.

Either way, my point is, metamagic'ing the bejeesus out of a single spell is probably the best way to make a build out of that single spell. Well, unless we're talking Force Missile Mage, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

EDIT: Also, before I forget it, OCULAR SPELL (from Lords of Madness). Because nothing says "awesome" like shooting scorching rays out of your eyes.

tyckspoon
2009-03-12, 02:47 AM
Cindy probably favors Enervation over Orb of Fire. :smalltongue:

Orb of Fire is probably better, actually. Things can be outright immune to negative levels (and are, with relatively high frequency thanks to either innate resistances or magic) but the Piercing Cold and Searing Fire feats mean there is very little that can be completely immune to an appropriately metamagic'd Orb. And the Split Twinned Fell Draining Orb applies a couple of negative levels anyway.. best of both worlds.

Dhavaer
2009-03-12, 04:44 AM
I think the orb is one of those no-save-and-sucks (if you hit, it's damage and some condition, basically)

There's a reflex save against the condition; I think dazed.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-12, 06:00 AM
I don't believe Orbs can be split rayed. Twinned and repeated, sure.

And Fell Drain doesn't double with Split Ray.

In any case, since Warmage wouldn't go very well with Incantatrix, here's a build:

Gray Elf Focused Evoker 10/Incantatrix 10

Feats (7 + 6 Metamagic + 2 Flaw): Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray), Split Ray, Empower Spell, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Maximise Spell, Quicken Spell, Iron Will, Energy Substitution (fire), Energy Admixture (fire), Fell Drain, Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell), Easy Metamagic (Repeat Spell), Easy Metamagic (Energy Admixture), Easy Metamagic (Maximise Spell)

Can cast Empowered Energy Admixed Fell Draining Maximised Repeated Split Twinned Scorching Ray, out of a 4th level slot, followed by an Empowered Energy Admixed Fell Draining Maximised Quickened Repeated Split Twinned Scorching Ray from a 6th level slot.

Doing 1536 +128d6 damage, assuming the 32 rays all hit. And 8 negative levels. Ow.

Personally, I'd give up Maximise and EMM Maximise for Spell Mastery/Signature Spell (Scorching Ray), though it's up to you. I'd also swap the Energy Sub and Admixture for cold, that way almost nothing can resist both halves.

Eldariel
2009-03-12, 09:23 AM
Arcane Thesis is the trick to any spell specialist. Incantatrix is the other to any spell specialist using lots of metamagic. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 can cast:
Empowered Split Ray Twinned Maximized Energy Admixtured Searing Piercing Invisible Energy Substituted Enervated Sanctum Fell Draining Chained Quickened Scorching Ray

from a level 2 slot given enough feats. It does...a lot of damage. Doubled something like four times, then Maximized, then multiplied by 1.5 twice, then chained and so on. Oh, and it's a Fire/Cold spell and both halves pierce immunity & resistance. And it hits ~20 targets. So yeah, it ain't bad.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-12, 05:13 PM
There's also this build (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=22841). Note that feat freed up by Oytug hole is for Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray

BlueWizard
2009-03-12, 05:35 PM
I agree, Arcane Thesis seems the way to go. A player just presented me with the concept, and it seems pretty badass.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-12, 09:26 PM
Arcane Thesis is the trick to any spell specialist. Incantatrix is the other to any spell specialist using lots of metamagic. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 can cast:
Empowered Split Ray Twinned Maximized Energy Admixtured Searing Piercing Invisible Energy Substituted Enervated Sanctum Fell Draining Chained Quickened Scorching Ray

from a level 2 slot given enough feats. It does...a lot of damage. Doubled something like four times, then Maximized, then multiplied by 1.5 twice, then chained and so on. Oh, and it's a Fire/Cold spell and both halves pierce immunity & resistance. And it hits ~20 targets. So yeah, it ain't bad.

Illegal. Chain Spell can't apply to Scorching Ray, as it's not a single-target spell.

Also, Split Ray doesn't double it, it only adds 1 more ray. So doubled 2 times, or 3 if you include Quicken allowing another spell. Why not Repeat it?

And you can't get the level below 5 without using either Metamagic School Focus (which is only 3/day) or Sudden Metamagic (which is 1/day). Unless you're assuming Arcane Thesis can reduce MM below 0, which is ruled out in the PHB itself.

Why Sanctum?

Where's Invisible from?

RTGoodman
2009-03-12, 09:35 PM
Why Sanctum?

Where's Invisible from?

Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane) makes your spells more effective while you're in your "home base," and I think might be +0 spell levels. Invisible Spell is from Cityscape and, IIRC, is also +0. It makes the effects of your spells invisible.

Eldariel
2009-03-12, 09:39 PM
Illegal. Chain Spell can't apply to Scorching Ray, as it's not a single-target spell.

Psh, I didn't mean use that specific build, I was just listing the first metamagic feats that increase effect off the top of my head.


Also, Split Ray doesn't double it, it only adds 1 more ray. So doubled 2 times, or 3 if you include Quicken allowing another spell. Why not Repeat it?

And you can't get the level below 5 without using either Metamagic School Focus (which is only 3/day) or Sudden Metamagic (which is 1/day). Unless you're assuming Arcane Thesis can reduce MM below 0, which is ruled out in the PHB itself.

Arcane Thesis specifically allows any metamagic adjustments as long as the end level isn't under the spell's original level. Specific trumps generic, so it works.


Why Sanctum?

To lower adjustment.


Where's Invisible from?

Cityscape.

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-13, 08:20 AM
So is Scorching Ray the way to go if you want to deal damage with magic?

Eldariel
2009-03-13, 08:23 AM
Depends. It does have the highest capped damage/level of the common spells (12d6 on level 2). However, as it allows Spell Resistance, is Fire-damage and has a short range, there're other considerations to keep in mind. But yeah, as far as raw damage/level goes, Scorching Ray wins.

Person_Man
2009-03-13, 09:09 AM
My preferred blaster build is Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 6/Stormcaster 5/Whatever X. Stormcaster (Stormwrack) loses 1 caster level in it's progression, but it gains +2 to cast most energy spells, and any enemy hit by an electrical spell takes extra damage and must Save or be Stunned. Combine with Energy Substitution, Born of three Thunders (Complete Arcane), and Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness), and every energy spell you cast is 50% electricicy, 50% sonic, deals extra damage, your enemy must Save twice or be Stunned, and if your enemy is Stunned they must Save or be knocked Prone, in addition to the spells normal effects.

Specific builds aside, I think it's important to understand the nature of combat in D&D. There is no single spell that is most optimal. It's an elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors, and you need to understand what beats what. Area of effect is good against numerous enemies, touch attack is good against single enemies, etc. Also note that many enemies have Spell Resistance or Immunities. If that's the case, you need to have spells that ignore SR, such as Power Word or the various Orb or Summon spells.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-14, 09:47 AM
Arcane Thesis specifically allows any metamagic adjustments as long as the end level isn't under the spell's original level. Specific trumps generic, so it works.

But it doesn't SAY that it can give a metamagic negative level adjustment. PHB SAYS that a metamagic increases the level of a spell. You lose.

In any case, it's obviously not RAI. If you're going to pull stinky cheese like that, you might as well go Pun-Pun.


Cityscape.
Thx.

AdamSmasher
2009-03-14, 10:56 AM
Sacrifice split ray, you don't need it.

You need to be casting a maximized, empowered Moonbow. :smallamused:

With Arcane Thesis, of course.

monty
2009-03-14, 11:01 AM
But it doesn't SAY that it can give a metamagic negative level adjustment. PHB SAYS that a metamagic increases the level of a spell. You lose.

In any case, it's obviously not RAI. If you're going to pull stinky cheese like that, you might as well go Pun-Pun.

Arcane Thesis specifically says that it cannot reduce the spell below its original level. The only way this would be possible is if it were possible to get negative adjustments. The fact that it specifies that very strongly implies that negative adjustments are allowed (as long as they are balanced by positive ones).

Eldariel
2009-03-14, 01:50 PM
But it doesn't SAY that it can give a metamagic negative level adjustment. PHB SAYS that a metamagic increases the level of a spell. You lose.

"You lose" is not courteous in the least. Anyways, PHB says that metamagic increases the level of a spell, but since +0 metamagic that obviously doesn't increase a spell's level exists, it's pretty obvious that that's nothing more than a direction-giving statement to make metamagic easier for players to understand.


In any case, it's obviously not RAI. If you're going to pull stinky cheese like that, you might as well go Pun-Pun.

Actually, they have even applied an errata to the ability - the errata maintained this functionality. It begins to seem to me like it were intentional. The only limit they placed is that the spell can't be cast from a slot lower than its original slot. They could've just said "this benefit cannot give metamagic negative adjustment", but they specifically omitted such a statement.

kpenguin
2009-03-14, 02:01 PM
You could try playing an artificer and build around stacking metamagics on wands.

TempusCCK
2009-03-14, 02:59 PM
In any case, it's obviously not RAI. If you're going to pull stinky cheese like that, you might as well go Pun-Pun.

This amuses me greatly. Pun Pun is technically legal, and it only abuses gate-loops instead of meta-magic reducers. You think the writers of Arcane Thesis intended for people to cast spells that deal 1000+ damage from a 4th level slot? Cheese is cheese, but apparently some cheese isn't as bad as others, even though, in the end, both are abusing the system.

Talic
2009-03-15, 01:23 AM
To Clarify:

Cindy, by use of incantatrix, easy metamagic (Dragon magazine feat, available through Crystal Keep), Arcane thesis, and others, allows for pretty abusive exploits of metamagic reducers.

The build is designed to be flexible. Yes, it can metamagic up an enervate for 22 negative levels...

Or it can hit an orb of X for enough damage to drop a great wyrm (any standard MM Dragon).

It has access to all the standard batman abuses (use gate for solars instead of wish), as well as new ones (warweaver spreading of high level buffs, such as Mindblank, to an entire party), and more.

All while having a rather impressive defensive suite. Prior to level 11 however, it's just a batman wizard.

Cindy was designed to show that an optimized blaster wizard could be effective, through the abuse of metamagic reducers.

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-15, 09:57 AM
The above ideas are all pretty sound. I would add in Arcane Trickster to the mix. Since Scorching Ray only benefits from a max of 11 caster levels, the couple missed caster levels are well, well worth the 24 sneak attack dice you'd be getting at ECL 20. And with wizard levels there are plenty of ways to get those sneak attack dice. You can blink, used improved invisibility, good old fashioned grease, or, oh yeah, impromptu sneak attack.

SoD
2009-03-15, 05:07 PM
What does Easy Metamagic (x) do?

monty
2009-03-15, 05:09 PM
What does Easy Metamagic (x) do?

Reduces the adjustment of a metamagic feat by 1, to a minimum of +1. For example, Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell) would make Quicken only a +3 metamagic.

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 05:10 PM
What does Easy Metamagic (x) do?

Lowers the cost of applying X Metamagic Feat by 1 to the minimum of 1. Same as Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon, except doesn't require Dragonblood to take.