PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] So about this Wild Shape...



AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-12, 07:21 PM
I posted a few days ago about my Kobold Druid, Tom-Tom, but the biggest downfall is that I've never actually played a Druid before outside of Neverwinter Nights etc. so while I can grasp the idea of using spells while Wildshaped through the Natural Spell feat, I'm at a loss as to what exactly to Wild Shape into, and why exactly I would. Since most of the possibilities I see at first glance have less AC than I do, and all my magical items no longer function while I'm wild shaped, (At least that's the impression I get from the description!) I just don't see it.

I can understand flying creatures and raining down spells out of reach, but I've taken 1 level of cleric and I can base DMM 2 Quickened Spells per day (DM isnt allowing Nightsticks unless we offer rather lucrative favours *cough*) with the idea of casting buffs on myself or debuffs on enemies to make my timid Kobold into a beefy machine.

Right now I can't see the appeal, but at the same time I'm almost certain that I'm missing the bigger picture.

So what I'm asking is this:

A) What do I Wild Shape into? I know it's anything with the Animal type, and ALL books are available to choose from. A list would be nice if anyone could kindly help me out. Doesn't need to be specific as I'm a smart person and I can work things out as to why it would work, I just need pointing in the right direction. There's just a very large selection and I get rather overwhelmed.

B) Would the PHB 2 Druid be better for a more melee-based character? I'm guessing not but like I said I'm not 100% certain on how things work. I just don't like the idea of losing the ability to cast spells while shifted though.

C) Is it even useful to Wild Shape as soon as you get the ability? I have a base AC of 20 with just normal Studded Leather, and can hit things with my buffed up 3d6 Greatclub (4d6 if I Enlarge myself from Strength domain) and most things don't match up to that attack wise. I keep my HP when Wild Shaped, so I'm looking at losing a lot of AC. Is it just for utility and mobility at lower levels?

D) Like I say I really do think I'm missing something big and rather crucial. Apparently a Druid is the most powerful "core-only" class (possibly second to wizard, but thats usually personal opinion) and while I chose it for the concept of a Kobold druid rather than its power, the fact that I can't see how it can be so powerful is obviously showing that I'm missing something. Enlighten me? :smallredface:

Thanks in advance. I know I'm asking a lot but I can't think of a better bunch of people to help me understand what scouring through the books doesn't give me.

Edit: I'd prefer not to multiclass out of Druid. While yes I'd like to be melee based and some prestiges would help that, losing out on Druid spellcasting (especially with other source spells available) I would be missing out on too much of a good thing. If I just wanted to go pure melee I would have chosen that kind of class :smallwink: MoMF is good and all, but it doesn't match the ability to have Call Lightning, amongst other nasties, come from a Sparrow.

Talya
2009-03-12, 07:39 PM
Start with the Fleshraker Dinosaur (MM3). Your AC troubles go away, and you can charge, pounce, trip, pin, and poison--all in one round.

If you're that good at melee outside wildshape, chances are you put a lot of ability points into physical abilities, which probably was a waste.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-12, 07:48 PM
Start with the Fleshraker Dinosaur (MM3). Your AC troubles go away, and you can charge, pounce, trip, pin, and poison--all in one round.

If you're that good at melee outside wildshape, chances are you put a lot of ability points into physical abilities, which probably was a waste.

I have a strength of 9 :) the ability to hit things comes from flanking and level 1 cleric buffs, Shillelagh and a Greatclub.

Edit: Oh and one other character is a Trip Fighter with that one-handed chain I can't remember what it's called. So there's another -4 AC to the target.

Os1ris09
2009-03-12, 07:54 PM
My advice is take the Frozen Wildshape feat and the prestige class of Master of Many Forms to lvl 10. you get to wildshape into a dragon with all their extraordinary abilities and a cryohydra with all their extraordinary abilities. Great for melee focused people. Trust me I would know got a lot of responses like that to my ranger. LOL:smallbiggrin:

CthulhuM
2009-03-12, 08:44 PM
Wild shape really comes into its own in conjunction with certain specialized gear, and the ability to shift into large forms.

In terms of gear, I'm thinking of armor with the beastskin or wild properties. Both allow you to keep your armor bonus while wild shaped - beastskin is +2 and requires you spend an use of wild shape to activate it, wild is +3 and doesn't. There are also wilding clasps, which are 4000gp magic items that you can attach to any other magic item you own, causing it to remain on your body and active so long as your new form can wear it.

And large forms... well, they open up a wide array of nasty choices. The Druid Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400) has a pretty solid rundown of the best available forms. Actually, the druid handbook has a pretty solid rundown of more or less everything you need to know to optimize your druid - it's one of the better optimization handbooks I've found.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-12, 09:09 PM
Since most of the possibilities I see at first glance have less AC than I do, and all my magical items no longer function while I'm wild shaped, (At least that's the impression I get from the description!) I just don't see it. I generally recommend dumping AC as a Druid. Actually, I generally recommend dumping AC as anyone without Heavy Armor and at least a +1 Dex. Wilding Armor is worth the investment once you can afford it, since you can then wear Dwarven Mountain Plate(RoS) and get the massive bonus to AC without any of the penalties, but otherwise, AC is hard enough to max anyways. As for magic items, they only stop working when you wear them while shifting. Its much better to drop them, Wildshape, then put the newly resized belt/necklaces back on.
I can understand flying creatures and raining down spells out of reach, but I've taken 1 level of cleric and I can base DMM 2 Quickened Spells per day (DM isnt allowing Nightsticks unless we offer rather lucrative favours *cough*) with the idea of casting buffs on myself or debuffs on enemies to make my timid Kobold into a beefy machine.You can buff yourself as a bear much better than as a Kobold. 20+ str and Large size are far better than 9 Str and Small size, in melee.
Right now I can't see the appeal, but at the same time I'm almost certain that I'm missing the bigger picture.

So what I'm asking is this:

A) What do I Wild Shape into? I know it's anything with the Animal type, and ALL books are available to choose from. A list would be nice if anyone could kindly help me out. Doesn't need to be specific as I'm a smart person and I can work things out as to why it would work, I just need pointing in the right direction. There's just a very large selection and I get rather overwhelmed.Bears, Cats, and Dinosaurs. I can give you a level-by-level list, but other than a few exceptions(Rhino, Croc), all of the best options are one of those. Fleshraker is a great low-level example(and could be nice for a 'theme' Druid who only turns into reptiles).
B) Would the PHB 2 Druid be better for a more melee-based character? I'm guessing not but like I said I'm not 100% certain on how things work. I just don't like the idea of losing the ability to cast spells while shifted though.PHBII is generally regarded as a nerf. 5 hours shifted is generally 3/4 fights. By level 7, you can spend all your waking hours as a Large Brown Bear. By 8th, you can sleep as a bird, too. All-day shifting is not that great, especially if you have to give up your AC for it.
C) Is it even useful to Wild Shape as soon as you get the ability? I have a base AC of 20 with just normal Studded Leather, and can hit things with my buffed up 3d6 Greatclub (4d6 if I Enlarge myself from Strength domain) and most things don't match up to that attack wise. I keep my HP when Wild Shaped, so I'm looking at losing a lot of AC. Is it just for utility and mobility at lower levels?At 5th, it's mostly for utility and endurance. When you get Natural Spell at 6th, you shouldn't spend any time on the road as a Kobold. The animal's stats will probably be universally better than yours, except AC, so rather than boosting your Club, look at the Bite of the WereX spells to make you+Companion both godlike killing machines.
D) Like I say I really do think I'm missing something big and rather crucial. Apparently a Druid is the most powerful "core-only" class (possibly second to wizard, but thats usually personal opinion) and while I chose it for the concept of a Kobold druid rather than its power, the fact that I can't see how it can be so powerful is obviously showing that I'm missing something. Enlighten me? :smallredface:I'd like to see your build, that you're so effective in melee before Wildshape. The key to Wildshape is that a normal meleer needs Str, Con, Dex, and some Int. A normal caster needs Stat and some Dex/Con. A Druid needs Wis and some Con. All the stats that meleers need, a Druid gets through turning into a bear. A normal meleer likes having a way to increase size. A Druid gets Large for free at level 7, and Huge at 15th, something that only a couple other classes can do without needing LA. And then there's the versatility. With a standard action, you can change from a Charger to a Grappler to a Poisoner. From 6-15, Wildshape is one of the best melee options out there, on par with entire classes. Past 15, it still would be, except melee no longer matters.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-12, 09:36 PM
Thank you all for your information. As I've read what you have made the cogs in my mind start to turn and it's starting to make sense.

As for my little guy, his stats are:

9 STR
20 DEX
14 CON
10 INT
15 WIS
16 CHA

As for hitting with his Club, +2 BaB, +1 Divine Favour, +1 Shillelagh, +2 For Flanking, he's usually tanking with a Trip Fighter so hits things on the floor for another theoretical +4 to hit, +1 size negates the STR penalty. I usually throw in a Bulls Strength too if it's a nasty foe for another +2. (We're in Expedition to Undermountain, so there are plenty of those)

So that's a total of +12 to hit with his Greatclub that now smacks for 3d6+2, or adding another d6 to that if he decides to Enlarge Person up to medium size. Grated he can only do it -all- for 1 minute per day, but that lasts long enough to fight the BBEG of the specific area we're in :smallbiggrin: Also as a roleplaying perspective he doesn't actually remember anything after he buffs himself up (or Wild Shapes in combat), so he comes around seeing a room full of dead people and a half crushed skull on the end of his Club, shrugs not knowing what happened, and wanders off petting his animal companion.

Gorbash
2009-03-12, 09:49 PM
You should consider swapping Dex and Con. Since you'll use wild shape, there's really no need for Dex, but you'll want to keep your con score as high as possible, since your HP doesn't change once you wild shape into an animal.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-12, 09:51 PM
9 STR
20 DEX
14 CON
10 INT
15 WIS
16 CHA...

What? You're a primary caster. Why is Cha higher than your casting stat? Come to that, why would you put an 18 in anything but Wis, let alone in something that not only do you have a +2 to, but goes away when you use one of your primary abilities?

If I was building a Kobold Druid for 5th level+ with those rolls and DMM, I'd go with 18 Wis, 16 Cha, 13 Con, 9 Str, 12 Dex, and 16 Int. Then you take a -1 to Con to make your resistance bonus to saves higher. If FF isn't allowed, swap Con and Int.

Nohwl
2009-03-12, 10:01 PM
maybe angel made a typo and meant wisdom was 20 and not dexterity.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-12, 10:01 PM
You should consider swapping Dex and Con. Since you'll use wild shape, there's really no need for Dex, but you'll want to keep your con score as high as possible, since your HP doesn't change once you wild shape into an animal.


What? You're a primary caster. Why is Cha higher than your casting stat? Come to that, why would you put an 18 in anything but Wis, let alone in something that not only do you have a +2 to, but goes away when you use one of your primary abilities?

If I was building a Kobold Druid for 5th level+ with those rolls and DMM, I'd go with 18 Wis, 16 Cha, 13 Con, 9 Str, 12 Dex, and 16 Int. Then you take a -1 to Con to make your resistance bonus to saves higher. If FF isn't allowed, swap Con and Int.

@ Gorbash - My DM allowed a +4 to Dex for a Kobold instead of +2, to make up for their 2 negatives and not-much-else to make up for it. I'd be swapping a 16 for a 16. The reason I like the Dex is a backup just in case I can't Wild Shape or have run out of spells.

@ Sstoopidtallkid - I can see what you're getting at but I didn't want to min-max this character, it's more of a roleplaying perspective. 15 WIS is fine for a primary-buffing melee Druid. I can use stat items and/or Owls Wisdom potions if I really need something to land, and being a Druid doesn't come naturally to a Kobold - neither does any wisdom-based class for that matter.

Besides we have a spell-based Cleric and a Wizard in the party for direct spellcasting. I put high stat into Cha for RP reasons and for enough turning without having to spend another feat on extra turning. This allows me 10 turn attempts from a single Cleric level and Undeath domain, which is enough to Quicken 2 spells. As much as I love the DMM mechanic, it's game breaking so I wanted to keep it to a minimum.

I'm not really asking how to make an all-powerful Druid, I just wanted to understand how the Wild Shape fits into the role (and I understand it better now) and what useful animals there are out there to best take advantage of that.

CthulhuM
2009-03-12, 10:36 PM
Ugh, accidental repost.

Skaven
2009-03-13, 06:37 AM
Your stats are fine, I took a Kobold to epic with the same mindset whose stats were worse than yours. She was also wildshape focused. It was rough in the early levels, but it gets better.

Nothing surprises some Bandits who think they've cornered a 'weak and pathetic little Kobold' as when that Kobold suddenly turns into a bear bigger than them. :)

Hugely fun characters!

Gorbash
2009-03-13, 08:12 AM
The reason I like the Dex is a backup just in case I can't Wild Shape or have run out of spells

Trust me, that almost never happens. Ok, you might run out of spells, since your Wis isn't representative, but wild shape lasts hour/lvl and you won't be able to be wild shaped for whole day only on 5th lvl, because then it lasts 5 hours and you can use it 1/day, on 6th lvl you can already be wildhsaped for 12 hours. But since I assume you'll want to talk at some point grab Extra Wild Shape and you're set. Or just cast Echo Skull periodically and keep it around your neck.

There is some truth in this motivational:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/motivator1835286.jpg

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-13, 09:41 AM
Druids aren't proficient with a Greatclub, and you cannot cast Shillelagh on anything but a normal club or quarterstaff. Druids cannot wear studded leather, it includes metal studs and they are prohibited from using any weapons or armor that include metal parts.

Dipping Cleric for Divine Metamagic is not worth it. You have to spend two feats on Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic as per errata, and you miss out on a level of spellcasting, Wild Shaping, and Animal Companion abilities.

Your animal companion is your beefy character until you get Wild Shape: Large, from levels 1-7 you're a back row character. At level 4 you get a Fleshraker companion, which will have 6 HD with the feat Natural Bond (CV), and it will be a more powerful combatant than anything but a Totemist. Prepare Enrage Animal (SC), give it Ability Focus: Poison and Virulent Poison (SS), and remember that its DC increases with its HD, and it will be a destroyer of worlds. Another good spell to prepare is (Mass) Snake's Swiftness for your companion or the party fighter as needed, and Creeping Cold with (Rod of) Extend Spell will deal more damage than anything you can do in melee. Maybe even get a wooden Tower Shield for those levels so you can use it for cover and be immune to attacks while you're casting spells. Remember that you may gain total cover from it, but that doesn't mean it gives other creatures cover from your abilities.

In the mid to late levels you want to get a Monk's Belt, which you can put on after Wild Shaping into a beefy combat form, to get your Wisdom bonus +1 to AC and a 1d8 (medium) unarmed strike. If there's an arcane spellcaster in the party have him put Mage Armor on you and your companion, probably using charges from your Lesser Rod of Extend to do it, you can buy him a 1st level Pearl of Power if he complains about using too many 1st level spells/day on it. At level 8 in Dire Lion or Polar Bear form you should have an AC of 24 without any effort, assuming Wis 16 starting out and increasing it at levels 4 and 8.

Gorbash
2009-03-14, 07:56 AM
it includes metal studs and they are prohibited from using any weapons or armor that include metal parts

Not entirely true. They can use scimitars, sickles and spears.


hich will have 6 HD with the feat Natural Bond (CV)

Natural Bond is useless to Druids who don't lose Animal Companion progression since the bonus can't exceed the actual druid level.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-14, 08:05 AM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/motivator1835286.jpg You sir, win this thread. :smallbiggrin:

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-14, 10:50 AM
Druids aren't proficient with a Greatclub, and you cannot cast Shillelagh on anything but a normal club or quarterstaff. Druids cannot wear studded leather, it includes metal studs and they are prohibited from using any weapons or armor that include metal parts.
With the one level of Cleric I'm proficient with all simple weapons, and a Greatclub as is written is just a 2handed version of a regular club - a simple weapon. It's DMs common sense ruling that a greatclub is still a "club" in all sense of the word. Just because its a bigger stick doesnt change the fact that its still a stick.
As for druids not wearing studded leather, you kidding me? Studs don't have to be metal at all. Sure it costs more, but an extra 50gp on top of the price of the armour is nothing.


Dipping Cleric for Divine Metamagic is not worth it. You have to spend two feats on Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic as per errata, and you miss out on a level of spellcasting, Wild Shaping, and Animal Companion abilities.
One level in the grand scheme of things is more than worth being able to Quicken at least 2 spells for free even at level 1 which frees up round after round of buffing up is priceless. The rounds you would spend casting spells you can hit things instead without buying magical items to do it for you. It also fits the very strong roleplay aspect I have with this character.

tyckspoon
2009-03-14, 10:57 AM
Natural Bond is useless to Druids who don't lose Animal Companion progression since the bonus can't exceed the actual druid level.

It can also be used to counter some of the effective druid level penalty for having a more advanced base creature, which is how most people wind up using it since most other things that sacrifice AC progression lose too much of it for Natural Bond to make much difference. Or were never really worth it to start with, like the Ranger's 1/2 level thing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-14, 01:26 PM
Not entirely true. They can use scimitars, sickles and spears.
Right, I meant armor and shield, not weapons.


Natural Bond is useless to Druids who don't lose Animal Companion progression since the bonus can't exceed the actual druid level.
You can choose to apply your own bonuses and penalties in whatever order you choose. You can get a [level -3] companion and apply the penalty first, then apply the bonus from Natural Bond to make up for it.


As for the Cleric level for DMM: Quicken, you're spending two feats for a 2/day ability to Quicken, and you lost a dump stat. Those feats could have been Companion Spellbond and Natural Bond, and without losing that level of druid abilities your animal companion would be a better combatant than you were with those buffs, but all day long. Don't discount the power of your animal companion, it's a stronger combatant than most PCs, especially if you get a Fleshraker or a Dire Eagle (RoS): "I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/E4IVQ7hQwmd9fuZnPsj.gif

wadledo
2009-03-14, 01:40 PM
9 STR
20 DEX
14 CON
10 INT
15 WIS
16 CHA

Even if you're not going for optimization, I'd argue that this is not very good way to go about it.
If you were to put the CHA at 15 and the WIS a 16, you could eventually put the +1 Stat in CHA, thus giving both a Fluff and Crunch aspect to the character(I'm getting better at dealing with people, so my CHA went up!).
This way, you can also put that +1 in WIS if you find yourself not working to your own expectations.


Also, you said you didn't want to be overpowered.
So why are you going cleric as well?:smallconfused:
If you could find a PrC that combines the two classes(not unimaginable, given the way your DM seems to be home ruling), you'd be the most powerful thing on the table. Ever.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-14, 04:39 PM
Even if you're not going for optimization, I'd argue that this is not very good way to go about it.
If you were to put the CHA at 15 and the WIS a 16, you could eventually put the +1 Stat in CHA, thus giving both a Fluff and Crunch aspect to the character(I'm getting better at dealing with people, so my CHA went up!).
This way, you can also put that +1 in WIS if you find yourself not working to your own expectations.


Also, you said you didn't want to be overpowered.
So why are you going cleric as well?:smallconfused:
If you could find a PrC that combines the two classes(not unimaginable, given the way your DM seems to be home ruling), you'd be the most powerful thing on the table. Ever.

Surely changing the "not going for optimization" is optimizing the not optimizing :smalltongue:

My Kobold is more charismatic than he is wise. Is that really so hard to understand?

I picked cleric because he tried to be religious but the way he goes into an attacking frenzy (hence choosing quicken rather than persist, which would have been a LOT worse, persisted Bite of the X anyone?) and kills everything around him (including party members if they don't stand still) they cast him out.

He only quickens his level 1 clerical spells. So its not overpowered at all.

I didn't ask how to build my Druid, I just asked about some good Wild Shape targets because looking through 4 monster manuals and countless source books I was overwhelmed.