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Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-12, 11:13 PM
I want to build a 10th level ubercharger quickly. I have never really built one before, but my idea was a Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/X 9.
Feats: Mounted Combat (1st), Ride by Attack (Human), Spirited Charge (Flaw), Power Attack (Flaw), Leap Attack (3rd), Rest Free

Please help!

All source material is open, as long as you state where it is from.

Douglas
2009-03-12, 11:15 PM
You're forgetting Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior).

Os1ris09
2009-03-12, 11:44 PM
Shock Trooper forgot book one of the complete's. Maybe take Monkey Grip (complete warrior) and get a Large Lance for more damage or a Large Glaive.
Umm...... 2 LVLs of Fighter for bonus Feats So your lvl would look like this:

Barbarian 8/Fighter 2

Feats:
1st Power Attack
3rd: Monkey Grip
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Leap Attack
human feat: Mounted Combat
BFF: Spirited Charge
BFF: Ride-By-Attack

Personally I would have chosen orc as my race and not done the mounted combat stuff but hey the way your building it works too. Good luck hope this helps:smallbiggrin:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-13, 12:46 AM
Thanks for the help. I eventually decided on Barb 1/Fghtr 2/Scout 8. It did around 500 damage with each of its 3 attacks :smallbiggrin:.

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-13, 12:56 AM
Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 9.

Take psionic lion's charge.

Two pounces on one charge. Add in Twin Power for another pounce, and Quicken Link Power on the preceding round for another one.

Four pounces on one charge. It'll bleed you dry PDQ, though.

Once you hit psywar 10, nab metamorphosis and make yourself a psychoactive skin of proteus. Turn your psicrystal into a hydra, and share your psionic lion's charges with it while mounted.

Muahahahaha...

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-13, 01:58 AM
Dratted double-posts.

Heliomance
2009-03-13, 04:15 AM
Hit up Frenzied Berserker for Supreme Power Attack. I've heard it's possible to get a 48:1 return on Power Attack if you try hard enough.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-13, 05:59 AM
Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 9.

Take psionic lion's charge.

Two pounces on one charge. Add in Twin Power for another pounce, and Quicken Power for another one.

Four pounces on one charge. It'll bleed you dry PDQ, though.

Once you hit psywar 10, nab metamorphosis and make yourself a psychoactive skin of proteus. Turn your psicrystal into a hydra, and share your psionic lion's charges with it while mounted.

Muahahahaha...

Could you please explain this? The four pounces i mean :smallconfused:

Prime32
2009-03-13, 06:19 AM
Then there's cavalierCW, for the big multipliers.


Could you please explain this? The four pounces i mean :smallconfused:I don't believe I've seen this strategy before. There may be some rule I missed which prevents it.
Psionic lion's charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm) lets you make a full attack in the round that you charge. It does not appear to modify the charge itself, just let you attack as well. You use Quicken Power and Twin Power to cast it four times in a round.

I worked on a Guren SEITEN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qyN9uAjDEU&fmt=18) build once, - a druid/hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade wildshaped into a giant bat, carrying a fleshraker companion with the Battle Jump feat under the effects of venomfire. The druid threw its companion into enemy spaces as a full attack, and each attack was converted into a full attack by the fleshraker. I'll have to add multi-lion's charge as well :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-03-13, 06:24 AM
That Lion's Charge trick doesn't work. Lion's Charge is a swift action to manifest, and you can only use 1 swift action per round. No quickened for you! However, I don't see why the Twinned Power thing wouldn't work, so I guess you could get 2 full attacks on a charge with it? That... seems pretty good. :smallwink:

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-13, 07:11 AM
That Lion's Charge trick doesn't work. Lion's Charge is a swift action to manifest, and you can only use 1 swift action per round. No quickened for you! However, I don't see why the Twinned Power thing wouldn't work, so I guess you could get 2 full attacks on a charge with it? That... seems pretty good. :smallwink:

If you twin dominate monsters, you have the monster dominated twice?

IMHO, does not work. If you charge, you full attack. You charge one, you full attack. Cannot be made more.

Swooper
2009-03-13, 07:14 AM
Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 9.

Take psionic lion's charge.

Two pounces on one charge. Add in Twin Power for another pounce, and Quicken Power for another one.

Four pounces on one charge. It'll bleed you dry PDQ, though.

Once you hit psywar 10, nab metamorphosis and make yourself a psychoactive skin of proteus. Turn your psicrystal into a hydra, and share your psionic lion's charges with it while mounted.

Muahahahaha...
:smalleek:

You don't seriously expect to get this past a sober DM, do you?

Edit: ^^^ What he said.

Dyllan
2009-03-13, 07:55 AM
You've never seen the multiple pounce thing used because it doesn't work.

Lion's Charge: ...When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round...

Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack...

The other pounce abilities are worded the same. All of these abilities allow you to follow a pounce with a full attack. None of them grant you extra attacks though - so you're still limited to one full attack a round.

jcsw
2009-03-13, 08:05 AM
When people say multipouncer build, they refer to the shadow pounce ability of the telfemmar (sp?) shadowlord, which can initiate full attacks for free at the end of a teleport.
The basic idea is to use swift, move and standard action teleports in the same round to get multiple full attacks at once...

Prime32
2009-03-13, 08:13 AM
That Lion's Charge trick doesn't work. Lion's Charge is a swift action to manifest, and you can only use 1 swift action per round. No quickened for you! However, I don't see why the Twinned Power thing wouldn't work, so I guess you could get 2 full attacks on a charge with it? That... seems pretty good. :smallwink:
Unless its been errata'd, a quickened power is a free action, not a swift action (you still have to expend your psionic focus, so it remains tricky to manifest three powers per round).



You've never seen the multiple pounce thing used because it doesn't work.

Lion's Charge: ...When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round...

Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack...

The other pounce abilities are worded the same. All of these abilities allow you to follow a pounce with a full attack. None of them grant you extra attacks though - so you're still limited to one full attack a round.
If they didn't grant you extra attacks, how would you be able to charge-attack and full-attack in the same round anyway?:smalltongue:

Yes, it's usually more efficient to go for the *Bamf!* build at this point.

Dyllan
2009-03-13, 08:35 AM
If they didn't grant you extra attacks, how would you be able to charge-attack and full-attack in the same round anyway?:smalltongue:


They modify the charge action to allow for a full attack at the end of it. This isn't in addition to whatever attack(s) you usually get with a charge, however, or you'd be getting a single attack plus a full attack with pounce. Therefore adding pounce replaces your single attack on a charge with a full attack, but then adding a different form of pounce would replace your full attack from the first pounce with a full attack from the second pounce. They're not additive.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-13, 09:00 AM
Unless its been errata'd, a quickened power is a free action, not a swift action (you still have to expend your psionic focus, so it remains tricky to manifest three powers per round).


If a quickened spell is a swift action, why should a quickened power be a free?

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-13, 10:06 AM
I realized this morning that Quickened Power wouldn't work. A Link Power at the end of the preceding round would, however.

After all, psionic lion's charge has an instantaneous duration, and effects with instantaneous durations always stack. :cool:

[edit] Also, you get the full attack in addition to the charge. Which means you can use it before or after (or during) the charge, and you gain an additional full attack each time you manifest the power. Generally, you can only manifest it once, but metafeats circumvent the normal rules (which, in this case, means multiple full attacks in addition to the regular charge; if you can pounce via another ability as well, that's just gravy).

Dyllan
2009-03-13, 10:52 AM
[edit] Also, you get the full attack in addition to the charge. Which means you can use it before or after (or during) the charge, and you gain an additional full attack each time you manifest the power. Generally, you can only manifest it once, but metafeats circumvent the normal rules (which, in this case, means multiple full attacks in addition to the regular charge; if you can pounce via another ability as well, that's just gravy).
Per the SRD for Psionc's Lion Charge:


You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion. When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round.

By RAW, I can see the argument that this means you can charge, make your normal action at the end of the charge, and then full attack. I would argue you can't full attack before the charge, because it says "when you charge." If you full attack first, you haven't charged, so that was your full round action and your initiative is over. If you interpret it this way, then you could use another form of pounce and this one together to get two full attacks.

However, I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI are that you gain the Pounce ability to get a full attack instead of your single attack at the end of a charge. It's just not worded very well.

NeoVid
2009-03-14, 05:11 AM
Let's see... you could use the Tiger Claw maneuver Sudden Leap to trigger the Battle Jump feat as a swift action, couldn't you? Also, you're likely to have the TC stance that gives you +10 feet to all jumps, so you'd succeed almost automatically...

And isn't there an enchantment that gives a weapon a crazy damage multiplier on the charge? I can't remember.

hamishspence
2009-03-14, 05:19 AM
Page 59, XPH: "Manifesting a quickened power is a swift action"

Prime32
2009-03-14, 08:22 AM
However, I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI are that you gain the Pounce ability to get a full attack instead of your single attack at the end of a charge. It's just not worded very well.
Note that beyond level 5, this would make the power stronger. If you full attack after the charge, that's one thing. If the full attack is part of the charge, you add things like valorous weapons and Spirited Charge (as well as the standard +2 attack bonus) to each attack.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-14, 08:15 PM
Unless its been errata'd, a quickened power is a free action, not a swift action Errata are corrections of errors. But rules changes are obviously not limited to error fixes, or there could be no new feats or class abilities that provide exceptions to the usual rules. Complete Arcane says this (on page 86):
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description in the Player’s Handbook). And Expanded Psionics Handbook says this:
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. So by psionics-magic transparency, if a quickened spell is a swift action (not a free action), then a quickened power is also a swift action (not a free action).

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-14, 08:22 PM
Well, I did change the Quicken Power feat to the Link Power feat, because that certainly works.

In any case, psionic lion's charge is instantaneous, and it adds a full attack on a round when you charge (rather than modifying your charge), so they do stack together.

It's pretty powerful, but requires a lot of pp spent, which psywars just don't have. (Usually.)

(Also, Quickened powers are swift actions, as per the XPH and SRD. Thus, a Quickened psionic lion's charge is pretty redundant.)

Seffbasilisk
2009-03-14, 08:28 PM
I'd also recommend looking into a Heartseeking Amulet. 3/day turn a melee attack into a touch attack. Helps negate the to-hit penalties of Power Attack.

herrhauptmann
2009-03-15, 12:57 AM
Try being a Bariaur (BoED, various monster manuals and planar books).
It's like a centaur, but human/ram instead of human/horse. Take a few mounted combat feats and wield a lance, in addition to the regular uber-charger feats.
Plus, leap attack will now work with your mounted combat feats because you are your mount. No more arguing whether a paladin can make use of his leap attack while riding on the back of his horse.

On the downside, you'll need a lot space to do this and you'll have an ECL of +2.

MustacheFart
2009-03-15, 01:47 AM
Personally, I am a fan of using the Goliath race (Races of Stone). They're only a +1 LA which you can buy off and they're Powerful Build ability is really nice.

Combo them with a Greathammer from MM4 (19-20/x4) for lots of destruction. Personally, my favorite thing to do someone already mentioned. Basically, get the Sudden Leap maneuver from ToB. This let's you as a swift action make a jump. Then combo this with the Battle Jump feat which lets you make a charge on an opponent if you fall on him I think its, what 5 or 10 feet? Then with pounce you truly do get 2 full attacks in a round.

Simply put, it would go like this: Charge foe; use leap attack; make full attack; use Sudden Leap maneuver; use Battle Jump feat; and finally, make another full attack!

Do the above with a keen Greathammer (17-20/x4) and...well I've yet to have an enemy survive lol.

Like people metioned, anyway you can pump the damage bonus from PA is the way to go. Frenzied Berzerker + Favored Power Attack = really nice!

To add insult to injury, combo it all with Robilar's Gambit. I mean it isn't like Uberchargers are going to have great AC after a charge anyway.

Samb
2009-03-15, 03:20 AM
I'm building a sundering/charger myself and I use half-giant psiwarrior/fighter. If you use a barbarian I would say the only benefits would be for frenzied berserker, but then you have less feats to go around and you need the feats. To be honest I don't see why you picked the feats you picked.

Feats needed for awesome charger: power attack, leap attack, reckless charge, up the walls/leap of heavens/combat brute, psionic weapon, deep impact, instant clarity/psionic meditation, raptor school

as a human you have 9 feats which means you could become a mantled warrior if you wanted too. I suggest you take creation mantle for astral constuct and minor creation both excellent lvl 1 powers. Being mantled also means you can take tap mantle (hello metamorphosis!!!) and ensures that you will always be a force to recokened with.

Helpful powers: expansion, lion's charge, mighty jump, hustle (if you don't dip into ToB)
The psionic feats and psionic lion's charge are the reason why a psiwarrior is best for this.

Heres how it works:
everything revolves around leap attack and psionic lion's charge. Just leap attack gives you 4:1 return.
Raptor school adds more damage if you make the jump DC, and mighty jump will increase the chances you make it (this is only for lower levels). If you use hawk eye to increase your attack and damage you can invest more into power attack next turn (or 2-3 turns later). If you picked astral construct power then you can have your construct attack while you observe.

Combat brute makes your leap attack 5:1 return and lets you "continue" your charge the next turn with momentum swing. If you are sundering you can break there shield and do another attack with sundering cleave, this is where expansion will pwn them.

Up the walls/leap of heavens lets you "charge" opponents at point blank range. Just run up a wall to meet the 20 foot run requirement AND the 10 foot jump requirement all without actually moving away from the monster. While you're at it use death from above (ToB) for an extra 4d6 when you get higher in level.

Deep impact lets you max out your PA everytime. If you dip into warblade you can get your focus back with instant clarity and do it again next round assuming you haven't killed him. If you don't want to dip into ToB then you will have to settle for psi meditation and hustle.

Reckless charge and weapon focus are just very nice bonuses for this build but not essential. Get armbands of might while you are at it. Linked power with Lion's charge DOES work and when combined leap of heavens/up the walls and deep impact is just devastating.
The tiger claw school in ToB will add alot of options for more fun/flavor but hardly needed, but since alot of them involve jumping they may find some utility.


Nothing to do with charging but having metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer at level 10 is a big deal. Get overchannel to make yourself truly broken (metamorphosis will heal any damage from overchannel anyway) even earlier!

Talic
2009-03-15, 04:22 AM
Careful on sunder. You're breaking your future toys.

Sunder is one of those abilities that is like disjunction. It may deny your opponent a weapon, but it denies you the ability to have that weapon. Much more advantageous is Disarm, which has the potential to let you get your toys EARLY.

Samb
2009-03-15, 04:43 AM
Careful on sunder. You're breaking your future toys.

Sunder is one of those abilities that is like disjunction. It may deny your opponent a weapon, but it denies you the ability to have that weapon. Much more advantageous is Disarm, which has the potential to let you get your toys EARLY.
Meh our DM rarely has any good stuff on the NPCs and if they good stuff they are vile or cursed. I usually just plain attack if the item looks lootable anyway.

Back to charging get a deep crystal weapon for the extra 2d6 damage. If you want to go FB then get the requirements now but remember that you will short on many feats, but maybe the frenzy and rage will make up for it.

Psiwarrior ftw IMO.

Samb
2009-03-15, 12:36 PM
Hit up Frenzied Berserker for Supreme Power Attack. I've heard it's possible to get a 48:1 return on Power Attack if you try hard enough.

just to clear this up multipilers are additive. So if one feat doubles your PA while another one triples it you end up with x5 (2+3) not x6 (2x3). So with leaping attack, combat brute and supreme PA you get x7.

Samb
2009-03-15, 12:40 PM
Thanks for the help. I eventually decided on Barb 1/Fghtr 2/Scout 8. It did around 500 damage with each of its 3 attacks :smallbiggrin:.

Um you are free to play any class you want but how did you create an über charger with scout main? I'm pretty sure PA is melée only right?

monty
2009-03-15, 02:24 PM
Um you are free to play any class you want but how did you create an über charger with scout main? I'm pretty sure PA is melée only right?

Yes (at least most of the time). But why wouldn't he be doing melee attacks anyway?

Samb
2009-03-15, 02:42 PM
Yes (at least most of the time). But why wouldn't he be doing melee attacks anyway?

It's not über, not even a little bit. I mean he asked for über but settled for subpar, what was the point of even posting a request for an optimized build when he goes for something that clearly isn't?

monty
2009-03-15, 03:10 PM
It's not über, not even a little bit. I mean he asked for über but settled for subpar, what was the point of even posting a request for an optimized build when he goes for something that clearly isn't?

Well, with Shock Trooper, you can afford the BAB loss, since you should be consistently hitting with full PA anyway, and I'd argue that the extra movement speed and skirmish damage are probably better than what you'd get from more fighter or barb levels. Seems like a reasonable choice to me.

Samb
2009-03-15, 03:47 PM
Well, with Shock Trooper, you can afford the BAB loss, since you should be consistently hitting with full PA anyway, and I'd argue that the extra movement speed and skirmish damage are probably better than what you'd get from more fighter or barb levels. Seems like a reasonable choice to me.

Scout is a fine class, and skirmish is a great way to deal good damage from a safe distance but charging is not one of the things it does.

monty
2009-03-15, 03:49 PM
Scout is a fine class, and skirmish is a great way to deal good damage from a safe distance but charging is not one of the things it does.

Again, why not? While it's not the most absolutely optimal choice, it's hardly weak in that build, and you're pretty much guaranteed to get the skirmish damage every time.

Samb
2009-03-15, 04:40 PM
Again, why not? While it's not the most absolutely optimal choice, it's hardly weak in that build, and you're pretty much guaranteed to get the skirmish damage every time.

The title of this thread implies that he was looking for a optimal build that does charges. Scout is like the opposite of that. Hence my confusion.

MustacheFart
2009-03-16, 12:54 AM
The title of this thread implies that he was looking for a optimal build that does charges. Scout is like the opposite of that. Hence my confusion.

Dude, that is kind of a pigeonholing sentiment.

I've actually had the idea of making a melee scout myself, in the past. Scouts move and do good damage based on that movement.... Seems like a pretty obvious synergy with melee to me.

I mean how many times do you see characters in animes charge across the battlefield with a huge weapon, mowing people down? Lots of times! Hell in one of my favorite Animes, Berzerk, the main character named Gutz does it all the time. I think scout is the perfect representation of such a combat style. It isn't the only one sure but would you rather work toward completing a long arduous chain in order to get Rapid Blitz (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rapid_Blitz,all)?

Just because the Scout class is typically used as a ranged class and described as such does not mean you can't use it in a different way.

Also 500 damage a shot seems pretty respectable to me but what do I know.

MustacheFart
2009-03-16, 01:09 AM
just to clear this up multipilers are additive. So if one feat doubles your PA while another one triples it you end up with x5 (2+3) not x6 (2x3). So with leaping attack, combat brute and supreme PA you get x7.

I always thought such multipliers fell under the rule of tripling in which case you would end up with a total multiplier of 4, not 5.

If I remember the rule, you pick the bigger one, which would be the one that triples (x3) and then you add on any other lesser multipliers are 1 less than what they are. Therefore, you would get 3 (tripling) + 1(doubling, 2 - 1) = 4.

At least that's how I thought it worked but I may be wrong.

Also his 48:1 was probably a typo and he probably meant 8:1. That would be possible if you through in Favored Power Attack.

Person_Man
2009-03-16, 09:59 AM
Be mindful of using any ubercharge build.

1) If your rule interpretation is too good to be true, it probably is.

2) However high you can get your damage to be, your DM can push the hit points of his enemies higher. It's a nifty perk of being god of his universe. So if you can deal 500 damage, your DM will just make 3000 hit point enemies, and you're just screwing your other party members who deal more reasonable damage.

3) The more resources you put into one combo, the fewer you have for anything else. Your DM knows your weaknesses, and he will use them.

4) Repetition gets boring. If your build isn't capable of more then one thing, you'll soon tire of it.

Samb
2009-03-16, 10:59 AM
Somehow I have to wonder if 500 damage at level 10 is even possible. I mean why are you fighting things with over 500 hp to begin with at level 10? Does the DM how multiples work? Sorry but I'm in a level 13 campign and our barbarian does 100+ damage each crit and we find it very impressive.

500 damage? I have to call BS on that.

Person_Man
2009-03-16, 11:45 AM
Somehow I have to wonder if 500 damage at level 10 is even possible. I mean why are you fighting things with over 500 hp to begin with at level 10? Does the DM how multiples work? Sorry but I'm in a level 13 campign and our barbarian does 100+ damage each crit and we find it very impressive.

500 damage? I have to call BS on that.

While the multiple full attack method proposed in this thread doesn't work, it's actually not that hard to get 500ish damage.

The key is that you can multiply melee damage a number of different ways (adding attacks, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Rhino Rush, Valorous Weapon, Spirited Charge, Cavalier, critical hit, etc) and combine it with Power Attack->Leap Attack, which scales with your BAB, and Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). You can ensure a high probability of hitting by having an absurd Str (Rage, Alter Self, Wildshape, items, etc) and/or using Touch Attacks and/or denying your enemy their Dex bonus.

Os1ris09
2009-03-16, 03:42 PM
About that scout idea. It is not bad as a melee. In fact as i stated before the Scout/Ranger/Dervish idea is almost cheese.

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 04:29 PM
About that scout idea. It is not bad as a melee. In fact as i stated before the Scout/Ranger/Dervish idea is almost cheese.

Almost playable, you mean. It still loses to a two-hander, but not as bad as your average melee.

Os1ris09
2009-03-16, 07:25 PM
Almost playable, you mean. It still loses to a two-hander, but not as bad as your average melee.

No I mean almost cheese. Combine it with the right equipment like you suggested to me Eldariel and WHOA watch out for neg levels/CON damage/massive d6 damage/ let alone any other effects you can think off. Combine it with two weapon fighting and pounce. LOL can you say at least 7 attacks at level 20.

+18/+13/+8/+3 Reg Hand
+18/+15/+10 off hand (dont remember if -2 applies to the last 2 attacks)

Plus extra AC and movement to take advantage of a charge! lol can you say 90ft charge! (assuming base race is 30 movement +15 movement[dervish 10])

Oh BTW eldariel I dont mean to digress on the actually topic but do you have any advice for Cleric equipment or feats for a N/CN half elf cleric with a war axe.

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:07 PM
This is the wrong thread for that. Let's stick to the topic here; I can post something in the other.

Celeres
2009-03-16, 09:02 PM
don't forget that shock trooper has improved bullrush as a prerequisite.