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afroakuma
2009-03-15, 12:51 PM
As the title says, I'm looking for a Charisma-based caster class (preferably full-casting) that ideally is not divine (so no Favored Soul).

And before anyone suggests it, yes: I have heard of sorcerers.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-15, 12:55 PM
Off the top of my head

Well, theres Spirit Shaman, but thats divine.

Warlock

Warmage

Assassin89
2009-03-15, 01:00 PM
Warmage from Complete Arcane is one class. This class does not suffer from arcane spell failure provided that the character is wearing light armor, but it would progress to medium armor after a certain level.

kamikasei
2009-03-15, 01:02 PM
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror). But surely you have a more specific requirement than "non-divine cha-based full caster, but not a sorcerer"... what are you after?

Jack_Simth
2009-03-15, 01:03 PM
There's the Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) from UA.

The Glyphstone
2009-03-15, 01:35 PM
There's Bard into Sublime Chord, though that requires PrCing.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-15, 01:39 PM
As the title says, I'm looking for a Charisma-based caster class (preferably full-casting) that ideally is not divine (so no Favored Soul).

And before anyone suggests it, yes: I have heard of sorcerers.

Okay, but have you heard of Bards? :smallwink:

(Not full casting I know, but there's at least one way to get that.)

But yeah, what do you have in mind? A Warlock is pretty vastly different from a Warmage but they both use the same stat. Also if you don't mind psionics instead you could go with a Wilder.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 01:43 PM
But surely you have a more specific requirement than "non-divine cha-based full caster, but not a sorcerer"... what are you after?

No, that's pretty much where I'm going.

I'm looking for relatively broad spell selection, with some scary spell access, and Charisma-based casting. I'm not sure how much more specific I can be.

Saint Nil
2009-03-15, 01:44 PM
Personally, I suggest the dread necroamncer class. It offers plenty of perks besides its full casting focus of necromancy such as zombie traits, DR, and makes it far simplier to become a lich if that is what you are looking for.

Warmage is another good class if your looking for your typical blaster type. Both allow the use of light armor, giving you a better AC.

Thurbane
2009-03-15, 01:52 PM
There's also the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#battle-sorcerer) variant from UA, although if you don't like Sorcerer, that probably won't appeal...

I also recommend Dread Necromancer or Warmage.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 01:52 PM
Dread necromancer is a definite "No." Warmage feels a bit limited to me in terms of spell selection.

Saint Nil
2009-03-15, 01:55 PM
Well, no dread necromancer or warmage then. Sorcerer is kind of obvious, but I can't really think of many others. You could go wizard/sorcerer/Ultimate Magus if your looking for broad spell casting skills.

Draz74
2009-03-15, 01:59 PM
What exactly is wrong with Sorcerer? Because it sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for. Any other class that met all of your requirements would be a waste of ink because it would be so similar to Sorcerer.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 02:07 PM
What exactly is wrong with Sorcerer? Because it sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for.

True, and annoyingly so. I'm not permitted to use the four core full-casters. Otherwise, I'd be on Sorcerer in a heartbeat.

And the character is a neutral good half-celestial living in the Upper Planes, so undead is not so great an option.

Yes, I know it screams divine casting, but it's not gonna fly.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 02:21 PM
Warmage works if you take Rainbow Servant (CD), since you'd eventually be able to spontaneously cast the entire Cleric spell list. Get the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and you'll qualify at Warmage 4 (by both RAW and RAI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a)). If you don't like the feel of it, reflavor it to for something other than couatls. Someone I play with just loved his Phoenix Servant character, using the Good, Fire, and Renewal domains in place of Good, Air, and Law. It's probably one of the easiest prestige classes to reflavor to better suit a particular character.

Wilder would be another option if you're able to use Psionics.

Thurbane
2009-03-15, 02:27 PM
True, and annoyingly so. I'm not permitted to use the four core full-casters. Otherwise, I'd be on Sorcerer in a heartbeat.
Battle Sorcerer might be what you're looking for then, if the DM considers it different enough to the core Sorcerer to be eligible...

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 02:29 PM
Well, not a caster per ce, but it sounds like Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm) would work out fine for you. Not the most powerful class ever, but Psionics are a solid system open to accomplish all sorts of goals.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-15, 02:31 PM
Warmage works if you take Rainbow Servant (CD), since you'd eventually be able to spontaneously cast the entire Cleric spell list. Get the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and you'll qualify at Warmage 4 (by both RAW and RAI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a)). If you don't like the feel of it, reflavor it to for something other than couatls. Someone I play with just loved his Phoenix Servant character, using the Good, Fire, and Renewal domains in place of Good, Air, and Law. It's probably one of the easiest prestige classes to reflavor to better suit a particular character.

That's... umm... yikes. Odd ruling - for PrC's with low feat requirements, who's skill requirements don't force it, means the Sorcerer can occasionally get in earlier than the Wizard... that's a bit of an about-face. Hmm.


Wilder would be another option if you're able to use Psionics.
Yeah, it would be.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 02:55 PM
Psionics would be nice, but inadmissable per DM fiat. I'm restricted to arcane or divine, and I'm not a fan of divine.

Thurbane
2009-03-15, 03:00 PM
...another option might be Bard/Sublime Chord - not exactly "full casting", but pretty close.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 03:18 PM
Close, yeah, but it's pretty limp on the latter end.

Still, that's definitely the closest I've seen so far.

Zaq
2009-03-15, 03:47 PM
Beguiler is technically INT, but follows the same pattern as the Warmage and the Dread Necromancer. A lenient GM might allow you to swap the primary stat from INT to CHA (I'd actually view that as a step down for a straight-class Beguiler, because they have a really great skill list). Of course, your GM sounds pretty rigid, so that's probably not an option, but you might bring it up.

The Dragonfire Adept is an invocation-user like the Warlock, with an at-will breath weapon instead of an at-will lazor pew pew (sorry, "eldritch blast"). Charisma determines the saves for their invocations, and Constitution determines the saves for their breath weapon.

The Spirit Shaman has been mentioned, but it's divine. I'd argue that it feels less divine than a cleric or favored soul, but if you're set against divine on principle, that's a no go.

The Shugenja, also divine, doesn't get a lot of love, mainly because they also don't get a lot of love from WotC, but they have a unique spell list that includes cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells, so you can focus on some of the traditionally arcane spells if you choose. They're kind of underpowered compared to sorcerers, but they still do get full 9th-level casting.

Innis Cabal
2009-03-15, 03:50 PM
The Shugenja, also divine, doesn't get a lot of love, mainly because they also don't get a lot of love from WotC, but they have a unique spell list that includes cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells, so you can focus on some of the traditionally arcane spells if you choose. They're kind of underpowered compared to sorcerers, but they still do get full 9th-level casting.

This. They are a little underpowered but they are a strong contender for what you want. Sure they are "divine" but they don't feel like a divine casting class. Heck they even have spell failure like a regular caster.

Glyphic
2009-03-15, 04:11 PM
Perhaps you'd be interested in playing a Binder, from the Tome of magic?

They're really pretty nifty.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 04:12 PM
A lenient GM might allow you to swap the primary stat from INT to CHA (I'd actually view that as a step down for a straight-class Beguiler, because they have a really great skill list). Of course, your GM sounds pretty rigid, so that's probably not an option, but you might bring it up.

Extremely so, I fear. I've maxed out my admittedly liberal concessions already, and that one will certainly be forbidden.

As for shugenja, underpowered and Oriental-flavored... it won't fly, sadly.

Zaq
2009-03-15, 04:41 PM
As for shugenja, underpowered and Oriental-flavored... it won't fly, sadly.

The only thing "oriental" (gods, but I hate that word) about shugenja is the name. Call them "elementalists," and the ofuda (which is just typical clumsy Japanese non-translation... お札, if GitP can display kanji, is just "charm" or "talisman") something like "prayer scrolls" or "spell texts" or something. Done. There's nothing inherently "oriental" about them. The "oriental" class distinctions have always pissed me off... the word doesn't actually mean anything to begin with (I could rant about this for a while), and it's all just BS "exoticism." The worst part, of course, is when they either don't bother to translate a word or when they translate it really clumsily... but I'm getting off-topic.

But yeah, there's nothing inherently "oriental" about Shugenja. The mage with a strong tie to the elements has a strong presence in European fantasy (and modern American fantasy) as well, and there's no reason to tie it to some BS "exotic" land. Just rename it and you're done.

As for it being underpowered... yeah, that's true, simply because their spell list has been expanded exactly once, in Complete Champion. We all know that more spells means more options and more options means more power, and they haven't been given enough attention to be on par with a proper cleric or sorcerer. They still do have a decent (if not fantastic) selection of spells, somewhere around that of a PHB-only sorcerer (maybe a little less). If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, but given the criteria you've presented us, I think it's as close as you're going to get without going Bard -> Sublime Chord (which is, let's face it, basically just a sorcerer with a late start).

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 04:56 PM
*shrug* It's no different than "Occidental," just sees more currency.

And the five-elements thing marks them out.

Anyways, does anyone have any other suggestions? If I had to go divine, what would you recommend?

(I really don't want to, as I've already been warned I'll need a miraculous justification to keep my divine casting later in the campaign. He's been pretty fair in that respect.)

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 05:05 PM
Just go Bard/Sublime Chord then. He'll be behind a Sorcerer in casting level levels 6, 8, 9 & 10, and always has less slots, but otherwise matches Sorc fine and has solid auxillary abilities to go with the casting (like Metamagic Song).

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 05:10 PM
And less spells known, too... :smallannoyed:

Cagey DM.

*sigh* What about arcane casters without full casting? Are there any with a fair spell selection apart from bards?

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 05:11 PM
I have an alternate question: Why Charisma based?

Zaq
2009-03-15, 05:41 PM
Well, the divine CHA-based casters are basically just the three in Complete Divine. In a nutshell as I see it:

Favored Soul: DAD (Wis/Cha), access to all Cleric spells, HAS to be tied to a deity, three good saves, minor fun class features, actually has a few ACFs (see PHB2, Dragon Magic, Exemplars of Evil)

Shugenja: Only SAD of the three (doesn't require Wisdom), unique spell list, that's about it

Spirit Shaman: DAD (Wis/Cha), access to all Druid spells, unique spells known mechanic leading to greatest long-term flexibility at the expense of short-term flexibility, class features mostly forgettable with minor exceptions, gets spell levels (and spells per day) closer to a prepared caster than a spontaneous caster (it's funky, look at it)

If you have a poor Wisdom, Shugenja is the best bet simply because it doesn't require it. The other two use Charisma for save DCs and Wisdom for bonus spells and max spell level (for a spirit shaman, or vice versa for a favored soul). Spirit Shaman is tempting simply because it gets spell levels faster than the other two. Their spells-known (or rather, spells "retrieved") mechanic is funky, so look at it carefully when considering it. Favored Souls are defensively pretty strong in that they get medium armor proficiency and three good saves (and the PHB2 ACF makes them even more defensively strong). Favored Souls have to be tied to a specific deity, so if that's an issue, they're probably out.

Personally, I like Spirit Shamans the best. I like the spell-retrieval mechanics, and they have the best skill list of the three. A lot depends on how much you can (or are willing to) invest in Wisdom. A Favored Soul with high Charisma and low Wisdom will have plenty of spells per day but low DCs, so they'd make a good buffer (especially since they get Cleric spells, which are generally good at buffing. Generally). A Spirit Shaman with high Charisma but low Wisdom will have good save DCs but will have to invest in Wisdom-boosting items to be able to cast the higher level spells. A Shugenja doesn't need Wisdom any more than a Wizard or Sorcerer does.

It also depends on what role you're planning to play. Favored Souls can play most roles that a Cleric can (except for things that require turning, like DMM), such as party booster, self-buffing tank, and (if you're unimaginative) heal-beeyotch, though you're certainly free to choose the Clerical save-or-suck and/or other offensive spells. Spirit Shamans have Druid spells, so they're well suited to battlefield control or offensive buffing, but with no shortage of passable offense spells. Shugenja have some Sorcerer spells, so they can fill the role of a moderately good sorcerer (with illusions, some battlefield control, summons, and the like). If you're going for a sorcerer-who's-not-a-sorcerer, Shugenja is the closest.

Oh, and Shugenja don't have a five-elemental pattern. They just have air/earth/fire/water. Wu Jen are the ones with the fire/water/wood/metal/earth setup.

On the topic of "oriental:" (spoilered for off-topicness)
The word "oriental" might have simply been the counterpart of "occidental" back in Rome, but in modern-day English, it (and its partner in crime "Eastern," as in "Eastern Literature," "Eastern Philosophy," etc.) don't actually mean anything. First of all, the simple objection, speaking as someone living in North America, places like Japan and Korea are closer west of me than east of me. If you're living in Europe, that's different, but it's at least an objection for Americans. This is just a minor quibble, however, compared to the real issue.

Europeans have referred from everything from Morocco to Japan inclusive as "Eastern." What do those two countries have in common? Historically, literarily, philosophically, culturally? Nothing. The only commonality is that they're not European. What do Indian literature and Mongolian literature have in common? What do Chinese philosophy and Indonesian philosophy have in common? What do Persian culture and Korean culture have in common? All of those are carelessly considered "Eastern" or "oriental." The word is so big as to be meaningless. It thoughtlessly lumps countless diverse civilizations together into one homogeneous "other." The only distinction is that they're non-European. This is why I cringe when people refer to "oriental cultures," or "Eastern literature," or anything like that. It's worse than meaningless.

D&D, of course, is especially bad about this. The designers of Oriental Adventures really should be ashamed of themselves (both for perpetuating this worldview and for really clumsy and lazy non-translation. Calling the mouse-people "nezumi" is like having a race of cat-people called the "gato."). Outside of the OA book, everywhere that OA touches this stain continues, especially in instances like the Shugenja. Why does the Shugenja use "ofuda?" Because it sounds "exotic?" BS. Ofuda just means "charm" or "talisman;" my dictionary just lists it as a generic term for お守り and まじない札. The absolute most cringe-inducing example, of course, comes from Dragon Magic, in the Dweomered Dragon Scales chapter, which has several OA-themed items. Most of them are just Japanese (usually bad Japanese) that they didn't even bother to translate. "Beruto" of the Carp Dragon? We have a word for that thing; it's called a belt. It doesn't make it "cooler" or more "mystical" by just taking a katakana word and transcribing it. "Iyaringu" of the earth dragon? The word is EARRING. It's bad enough when they simply don't translate a word ("kabuto of the celestial dragon" is WAY cooler than "helmet of the celestial dragon," right?), but to take a word that is essentially ALREADY AN ENGLISH WORD then "Japaneseify" it to make it "oriental," well... It's just laziness and "exoticism" (it's different, so it's more special and mystical and crap, right?) at its worst.

Wow, I feel better after that rant.

Eeezee
2009-03-15, 06:02 PM
Based on what you've said, the best way to do this is Bard. I know it sounds lame, and yes you do have less spellcasting versatility than a sorcerer, but there are other benefits. Seriously, you get some of the good sorcerer spells without even PrCing, you have a d6 hit die instead of d4, you get practically infinite class skills + skill points (you should never cast a spell if a skill will do the job), Bardic Knowledge (great for heavy RP games, not good if you're just in combat all the time), and you can wear light armor (minorly important).

Looking at the Bard spell list, you're already able to take a bunch of good options that a sorcerer would take anyway. You get a lot fewer of them, sure, but it's not all bad

Maerok
2009-03-15, 06:07 PM
Shadowcaster. :smallbiggrin:

I think anything worth mentioning so far as Cha-casting has been listed.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 07:22 PM
Favored Souls have to be tied to a specific deity, so if that's an issue, they're probably out.

It's going to become an issue later.


Oh, and Shugenja don't have a five-elemental pattern. They just have air/earth/fire/water. Wu Jen are the ones with the fire/water/wood/metal/earth setup.

My apologies. Crossed wires.

I'm thinking about Sublime Chord... but I'm wondering, if I could slip a few levels of wizard past the DM later on, could I qualify for Ultimate Magus and raise my Sublime Chord levels? Would this even be advisable (insofar as buffering my low-level spell capacity)?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 07:26 PM
There's the Nar Demonbinder from Unapproachable East (FR), its prerequisites are a little bit easier than Sublime Chord but it gets far fewer spells/day. You can throw it in before Sublime Chord to get access to some higher level spells a bit sooner, though you'll need to be able to cast 4th level spells to qualify. Maybe something like Bard 1/ Warmage 6/ Nar Demonbinder 3/ Sublime Chord with Versatile Spellcaster, but I probably wouldn't use that unless you're starting at a fairly high level.

You could try an Eldritch Theurge build, maybe go Warlock/Warmage. Use Spellblast with Fireburst and Eldritch Spellweave to add Blinding Blast to your Magic Missiles. Not exactly a strong spellcaster, but certainly a versatile character with UMD.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 07:29 PM
I'm afraid I do need to be a strong caster.

What about Cha-based casters without full casting? Where could I find the most spell access, both in number known and number available?

JackMage666
2009-03-15, 07:35 PM
It sounds like your DM doesn't like the power of the core Full-Casters. It seems like what you're trying to do is find a way to make a Full-Caster of equal or greater power than the core ones he specifically asked you not to use.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 07:37 PM
He'll reward creativity, but in the main, yeah.

Zaq
2009-03-15, 07:39 PM
Spellthieves are CHA-based half-casters. They have a fairly sizable potential spell list (any Sorcerer spells from the Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, and Transmutation schools. Losing Conjuration and Necromancy hurts, but...) and, at their highest levels, know 5 of each level 1-4, which is respectable for a half-caster. Their spells-per-day isn't that bad when you realize that you can "borrow" (or steal) spells from other people to fuel your own spells... or to just straight up cast them. If you have another caster in your party, you can try to convince them to let you borrow a couple spells ahead of time...

Hexblades are also Charisma-based half-casters, but with a much smaller spell list to choose from, and the very low spells-per-day that half casters get hurts a lot more when you can't just siphon spell energy from your friends and enemies.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 07:44 PM
I'll be the only caster, and I expect later encounters not to offer a lot of spellthieving opportunities, although I could certainly pluck some SLAs from time to time. The cutoff at 4th level hurts a lot, though.

As for hexblade, yeah... painfully low spells.

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 07:53 PM
We're pretty much through all the options. There simply aren't that many classes that offer good spellcasting and there're no classes that offer spellcasting on par with Core classes that aren't named Archivist, Erudite or Artificer (none of which is Cha-based, although Artificer is close enough). Like, the next options are honestly PrCs with natural casting and the Cha-based ones are almost invariably either high level (Sublime Chord), Int-based or Divine.

So yeah, all I can suggest is play a Sublime Chord with a +2 Cha race & Spellcasting Prodigy-feat, spend feats/levels on expanding your spell list as much as possible and optimize the living bejezus out of the thing pulling all the stops to reach Sorcerous heights in terms of spellcasting ability. Or play a race like Sylph with natural spellcasting.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 07:59 PM
Any suggestions along that route?

And would Ultimate Magus be of use via Sublime Chord if I picked up a level or two of wizard to supplement my low-level spell capacity?

Keld Denar
2009-03-15, 08:21 PM
Suel Aracanamach is a partial caster. Get into it with Hexblade3/Warblade3 or Hexblade4/Paladin2 (you can always become good after your hexblade levels, since there is no ex-hexblade). This gets you great cha synergy leading into it. Then add Suel Arcanamach4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1. This gets you 5th level cha based spontaneous casting from Transmutation, Divination, Illusion, and Abjuration. From this you can get useful spells like Invisibility, Whirling Blade, Greater Mirror Image, and a couple of Bite of the X spells. Its basically a Cha gish in a can. Your last 4 levels are completely open too, so go full BAB classes to take advantage of your AbjChamp5 ability, or even go Dragon Disciple4 for the awesome stat bonuses.

As for Sublime Chord, you could do something like Bard2/Wizard5/Paladin2UltimateMagus1/SublimeChord1/UltimateMagus+9. If you work it right, you should be able to advance Sublime Chord casting 10/10 levels and get 7 levels of Wizard casting out of it too. That finishes you as a 12th level wizard, giving you 6th level spells, some of which you can sac to get bonus metamagic on your Sublime Chord spells. You also manage to snag +cha to all saves for increased resiliancy! Not too bad for a back of the napkin kinda build. Could be further refined and optimized though.

BlueWizard
2009-03-15, 08:23 PM
A bard. :elan:

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 08:23 PM
Any suggestions along that route?

And would Ultimate Magus be of use via Sublime Chord if I picked up a level or two of wizard to supplement my low-level spell capacity?

...wait, you're allowed to play Wizard? Yes, you could construct a decent Ultimate Magus. However, as the class is focused principally for the preparing side, it'd take some trickery to make it primarily advance your spontaneous casting.


As for suggestions, there's a listing on ways to expand spells known here (http://web.archive.org/web/20080123185932/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-616344). Ultimately, probably the strongest build for a generalist like this would be an Arcane Preparation (feat in CArc)-based Bard/Sublime Chord taking the 10 levels in Mage of the Arcane Order. That would solve the spells known problem quite handily, giving you access to any arcane spell of the appropriate level with one full-round action. Unfortunately, that costs you your Bard-abilities for the levels, but if you'd burn all your Music-uses for Metamagic Song/Song of Arcane Power anyways, it shouldn't hurt that much.

Other than Mage of the Arcane Order, there's of course Sandshaper which adds a ton of more and less useful spells to your list; enough to make up for the normal deficies (especially since the additions include stuff like Dispel Magic, Flesh to Salt, Wind Wall, Wall of Sand, Desert Allies and such that can be actually useful) quite easily. You lose a level of casting, but thanks to how Sublime Chord works, as long as you have something to fix your caster level (Practiced Spellcaster or Illumian-race work), it doesn't really matter all that much.


But yeah, the Faerun-feat (if available) "Spellcasting Prodigy", high Cha (definitely racially boosted) and some prestige classing are what I'd do for spells per day. Then I'd utilize the songs to gain some unique advantages caster level-wise. The standard Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 hull can accomodate two more PrC-levels that don't advance casting, and a total of 14 that do (if replacing Virtuoso, although that weakens the "Music-boosts for magic" - aspect so much that it turns rather trivial).

woodenbandman
2009-03-15, 08:32 PM
Truenamer would work. Maybe. If you had an item familiar and a custom item with a +30 circumstance bonus to truenaming checks.

Really your best bet, as has been suggested already, is Spirit Shaman. It doesn't really even feel like a divine class, because you cast all kinds of kool spells, like fireseeds and bite of the weretiger.

Chronos
2009-03-15, 08:37 PM
The standard Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8...This is a good one to point out. Virtuoso 1 doesn't advance casting, but you get that out of the way before Sublime Chord anyway. Then the rest of the class is full casting and pretty much full all other bard abilities, too. So compared to a full bard, you end up with a grand total of 4 less skill points, and behind one level on your standard bardic music, but in return you get a ton more spellcasting and additional bardic music/virtuoso performance abilities.

CthulhuM
2009-03-15, 08:41 PM
If what you're really aiming for is to be a sorcerer in everything but name, then bard/sublime chord is really the best way to emulate that, but it starts off very slow. Peronally, I'd just go with one of the specialist casters (warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer), or a fire shugenja (which gives you pretty much all the blasty spells you could want from the fire element, while still allowing you access to all the utility spells - many of them otherwise sorcerer/wizard only - in air and earth).

Of course, if you're willing to go with the slow start, and also like to make up for it with a hefty dose of cheese at higher levels, go bard/sublime chord/ur-priest/mystic theurge, and bask in your 9th level arcane AND divine spells before 20th level.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 08:44 PM
MotAO won't work for the same reason Favored Soul won't. The DM's indicated that powers based largely on membership, fealty etc. won't be worth a dime once things really get underway.

I am assuming (there's been some fair leeway) that as long as I prioritize another base class, the DM will let me leak a bit of wizard. He hasn't led me to believe otherwise.

What, if I may ask, is the value of the Virtuoso levels? They seem like an extension of Bardic Music into Bardic Music-styled abilities, rather than casting.


As for Sublime Chord, you could do something like Bard2/Wizard5/Paladin2UltimateMagus1/SublimeChord1/UltimateMagus+9. If you work it right, you should be able to advance Sublime Chord casting 10/10 levels and get 7 levels of Wizard casting out of it too. That finishes you as a 12th level wizard, giving you 6th level spells, some of which you can sac to get bonus metamagic on your Sublime Chord spells. You also manage to snag +cha to all saves for increased resiliancy!

Could anyone expand on this? (and why Paladin?)

Eldariel: Spellcasting Prodigy is definitely permitted; I already get a half-celestial's +4 Cha on top of whatever race I select, so I think I'll be set for running up a lot of spells per day.

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 08:47 PM
One fine option would actually be Shadowcraft Mage. Obviously, the big drawback is that you need to play a Gnome. But still, you could go: Bard 7/Shadowcrafter 3/Sublime Chord 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter +4

It would get spontaneous access to almost all Evocations & Conjurations, which would greatly enhance your versatility. The drawback is obviously that it takes a long time for this to kick in (Shadowcraft Mage requires level 4 Illusions to enter and you can't qualify for that before Sublime Chord), so if you're starting from a low level, this won't be of much good for you.

One of the best options if going really high though; having all those spontaneous spells would mean that you'd be able to pick just the ones missing from that list while using the grand, free list to cover all sorts of summoning, battlefield control, save-or-dies, defenses, etc. Heck, with Arcane Disciple: Luck, you'd gain access to spontaneous Miracles eventually (Metamagic Song plays nice with Heighten Spell).


EDIT: Virtuoso advances your casting and Bardic Music. Bardic Music, in turn, fuels Song of Arcane Power and Metamagic Song, so getting extras each level can be a very real enhancement to your casting ability. That said, if wanting to add PrC-levels from another PrC, Virtuoso-levels are the first to leave after Bard levels 8-9. If I added Sand Shaper though, I'd just cut 1 level of Bard for it (probably the easiest wide expansion of your spell list).

MoTAO could of course be reflavoured to draw upon some cosmic mana source that he only barely understands for those new spells. But of course, if the DM says no, he says no.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 08:51 PM
Unfortunately, I pulled the Shadowcraft Mage trick recently; the book is off the table for this campaign. :smallbiggrin:

So I'd like to try something new.

Eldariel
2009-03-15, 09:02 PM
Do you have a list of allowed books? Something along the lines of Bard/Sand Shaper/Recaster/Sublime Chord/Recaster+/finish would probably work the best (Recaster is a Changeling-specific class though; there're options available for Dragonblood instead if that's a no-go though). Bard with a Sand Shaper-level definitely seems like the best bet from what's allowed.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-15, 09:05 PM
What about the variant Swordsage in ToB that gets spontaneous arcane spells instead of maneuvers? That'll get you full casting and, though it'd be a limited number of spells, you'd get to cast them on a per-encounter basis. Unfortunately it doesn't explain what the new class features would be to replace the ones tied to maneuvers/stances but you could always work out something.

But eh, probably better off being a Warlock in that case.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 09:12 PM
Do you have a list of allowed books? Something along the lines of Bard/Sand Shaper/Recaster/Sublime Chord/Recaster+/finish would probably work the best (Recaster is a Changeling-specific class though; there're options available for Dragonblood instead if that's a no-go though). Bard with a Sand Shaper-level definitely seems like the best bet from what's allowed.

In the main, most things are allowed. He's a bit leery on really weird or setting-specific races (so no changelings, warforged and probably no Dragonblood... I actually don't know what book that's from so I don't think it's available in any event.)

Sandstorm and Stormwrack aren't allowed, but Frostburn is. Races of Stone has been temp-banned after I pulled off the super-shadow stuff. ToB's being used by someone else already, ToM and Incarnum are unavailable and the DM's not using psionics this time around. Other than that, pretty much everything goes.

AmberVael
2009-03-15, 09:13 PM
Could anyone expand on this? (and why Paladin?)

Eldariel: Spellcasting Prodigy is definitely permitted; I already get a half-celestial's +4 Cha on top of whatever race I select, so I think I'll be set for running up a lot of spells per day.

Goes like this:

You need two types of casting for Ultimate Magus.
Firstly, you need to cast 1st level spontaneous spells. Thus, we have two levels of bard.
Secondly, you need to cast 2nd level prepared spells. Thus, we have three levels of wizard.

Now, you want to focus on bardic casting, so we go completely contrary to what you'd think and instead add in two more levels of wizard. Why? Because this ensures that all the way through Ultimate Magus you'll be adding all of your bonuses to Bard.
This could also be done by using Practiced Spellcaster on the wizard side- however doing it this way does have a few other benefits which make it highly worthwhile.
1) You gain a bonus feat.
2) It allows you swifter entry into Sublime Chord (3rd level spells).

The two levels of paladin grant you a few abilities, most notable of which is Divine Grace, allowing you to add your heavily emphasized charisma to all of your saves. You also get Lay On Hands, which is a minor benefit. You technically could replace the paladin levels with something else, but you don't really need to progress wizard casting anymore and progressing Bard casting is pointless since Sublime Chord has the casting you want (And you can't get into it yet). Paladin just happens to have nice abilities.

From there you go into Ultimate Magus for one level while you pick up the remaining prereqs for...

Sublime Chord. You have to be level ten before you can get this. This is for your spellcasting power on the bard side, obviously.

From here you go back into Ultimate Magus to progress Sublime Chord all the way (along with some levels in wizard).

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 09:21 PM
Weird. Cool, but weird.

Paladin's out (alignment's a no go). What would be good to fill that spot?

And as primary caster, given that progression, are there any noteworthy spells I should pick up?

EDIT: No pun intended. Just happened. I swear. :smallredface:

Keld Denar
2009-03-15, 09:27 PM
Could anyone expand on this? (and why Paladin?)

Why not? It gives increased resiliance in the form of spectacularly boosted saves. You are gonna max your cha out anyway, why not get +10-12 to all saves on top of everything else. Its not like it costs you anything since it comes into play before your 1st level of SC. You could change it to 2 levels of Wizard, which gives you 7th level wizard spells, but you already get 7s from Sublime Chord and this makes you SIGNIFICANTLY less squishy!

EDIT: Could you use an alternate alignment paladin? Freedom is CG, or Tyrany or Slaughter if you can stomach being evil. Alternatively, you could probably squeeze in 3 levels of hexblade instead of 2 levels of paladin which gets you +cha to saves against all arcane spells (generally the worst) and Mettle to protect you from things with partial effects after you blow their saves out of the water.

As far as spells, I highly suggest an emphasis on Conjouration battlefield control and Necromancy debuffage. You get all kinds of free metamagic from UM, so you could cast something like a Maximized Split Ray of Enfeeblement, and then sac a 2nd level wizard spell to Empower it as well for extra insult. On top of that, a little transmutation and illusion buffage and you'll be good to go. Stat it out level by level, and I'd be willing to critique your selections.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 09:31 PM
Indeed, but I don't have the alignment for it.

That, and it's derived from divine power. The DM might tie it in to the big plug pull, and then I'd watch my saves plummet.

I doubt I need the extra wizard levels; would there be anything else that could fill that space? Or some class with a divine grace equivalent or similar ability?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 09:32 PM
If you're going to use Sublime Chord, pick up a Spellthief level with the feat Master Spellthief (CS). It does some caster level stacking shenanigans, though if you avoid uncapped spells they probably won't catch on for a while until you're getting 60+ on your checks to overcome SR. Plus if you go Human or Illumian with Able Learner you can be the party's trapmonkey on top of everything else.

AmberVael
2009-03-15, 09:33 PM
Well, if you can't do the alignment you could toss in two levels of Hexblade instead. It would be almost exactly the same- not quite as good, but still worthwhile. It applies Cha mod on saves vs. spells/spell like abilities.

Otherwise, I'd just put into two more levels of wizard or wizard-y prestige class.

Edit: though as Keld rightly says, if you go for Hexblade you might want to shoot for three levels, as Hexblade's third level allows Mettle (a really kickass ability).

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 09:40 PM
If you're going to use Sublime Chord, pick up a Spellthief level with the feat Master Spellthief (CS). It does some caster level stacking shenanigans, though if you avoid uncapped spells they probably won't catch on for a while until you're getting 60+ on your checks to overcome SR. Plus if you go Human or Illumian with Able Learner you can be the party's trapmonkey on top of everything else.

Does Master Spellthief also raise the cap of spell levels you can steal? Or is that still limited by spellthief class levels?

Keld Denar
2009-03-15, 09:44 PM
Does Master Spellthief also raise the cap of spell levels you can steal? Or is that still limited by spellthief class levels?

Yes

Check out the edit on my previous post.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 09:56 PM
Worth looking into, although I doubt I'd ever have much opportunity to sneak attack...

Hexblade 3 on top of all that would be tough, and with NG I wouldn't qualify anyway, nor would I qualify for the alternate Paladins.

Any other suggestions for the missing links? Base or PrC?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 10:06 PM
Does Master Spellthief also raise the cap of spell levels you can steal? Or is that still limited by spellthief class levels?

It adds all of your arcane spellcasting levels to your Spellthief level to determine both what level spells you can steal, and your caster level for all arcane spells. If you replace Paladin with Spellthief in that build, you'd be able to use Steal Spell as though you were a 20th level Spellthief.

The caster level wording is a bit ambiguous, and of course people try to take the most liberal interpretation. It could be taken to mean that Master Spellthief adds your caster level in all arcane spellcasting classes to your spellthief class level, and the total is your caster level for all arcane spellcasting classes including spellthief. Then it could be taken to mean that Sublime Chord adds its own caster level (that value) to your caster level in another spellcasting class (that value), effectively doubling your already inflated caster level.

For example, a Bard 2/ Wizard 5/ Spellthief 2/ UM 1/ Sublime Chord 1, Illumian with the Krau sigil (+2 CL all classes), not even Practiced Spellcaster. Your caster level is as follows: Bard: 5; Wizard: 9; Spellthief: 2; Sublime Chord: 4; for a total caster level of 20 in all classes after master spellthief and before sublime chord. That value is then doubled, caster level 40 in all classes, at character level 11.

A more realistic interpretation though takes into account that it specifies "arcane spellcaster levels" in Master Spellthief, i.e. the level that determines your spells/day, and "level in another arcane spellcasting class" for Sublime Chord, i.e. the level that determines your spells/day. Therefore, the above example would total not your caster level but your level of spellcasting ability in each class, then add your level of spellcasting in Sublime Chord to that, to determine your caster level for all classes. Regardless, all of your classes will have the same caster level so it doesn't matter how many level of each class you have when determining which class UM advances at levels 1, 4, and 7.

For example, a Bard 3/ Wizard 5/ Spellthief 1/ UM 1/ Sublime Chord 1 would have a caster level 11 in all classes from Master Spellthief, then his Sublime Chord level would be added again for a caster level of 12, and then UM's Arcane Spell Power +1 would be added for a caster level of 13 in all classes, at character level 11. Every additional level of Sublime Chord adds +2 to the caster level since the class is counted twice, every additional level of UM that advances both SC and Wizard would instead add +3 to the caster level, not counting increases from Arcane Spell Power. The outcome is still an inflated caster level for all classes, yet not quite so extreme. You still get to Steal Spell as though you were a single-classed Spellthief.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 10:14 PM
Nothing wrong with inflated CL. :smallamused:

I'm still not sure I'd ever have a use for the spell stealing, but if I did, the concern was that Master Spellthief apparently includes no provision on the total spell levels one may hold, meaning (in theory) that it would be capped at actual spellthief levels.

At any rate, that seems like a precariously amusing scheme for the low cost of one level and one feat.

Any suggestions for the remaining level? Or a better offer on the pair?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 10:19 PM
Swift Invisibility + Lesser Orb of X = Spellsteal.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 10:40 PM
Weaponlike spells - I forgot!

So, Orbs qualify for sneak attacks. Any other spells that do the same? This could get downright fun.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-15, 10:48 PM
Anything that has an attack roll, as long as you're within 30 ft.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 10:59 PM
Excellent. :smallamused:

So; since I only need the one level of spellthief, what should I do with the remaining level?

Also, is it good to begin Ultimate Magus before hitting Sublime Chord? Won't that deprive me of some spellcasting?

Keld Denar
2009-03-15, 11:25 PM
If you rig it so that your Wizard CL is always the same or higher than your SC CL, UM will always advance SC every level. Thus, the duel advancement levels will only really affect your preexisting wizard levels, so it doesn't matter if you take UM before SC. You would have to lose one level of UM anyway, since SC has to be your 11th level. Thus, taking 1 before SC allows you to take the other 9 after SC to make an even 10 levels.

The 2nd level of Spellthief wouldn't be bad to take. It would give you +1 BAB and +1 to Ref and Will, IIRC. Another alternative would be a dip in Duskblade, which would interact funny with MST and SC as well.

You know what? Bard1/Duskblade3/Wizard5/UM1/SC1/UM9 would be kind of interesting. You could use your Duskblade channeling with your SC spells, which means you can hit people so hard they break into the Macarana, and the style there is staggering. Loses out on the MST shananananananananananagens, but oh well, still an idea. Alternatively, Bard1/Duskblade3/Wizard5/ST1/SC1/AbjChamp5/UM4 with MST would be amusing.

By now we are kinda breakin things into a crazy realm.

afroakuma
2009-03-15, 11:57 PM
If you rig it so that your Wizard CL is always the same or higher than your SC CL, UM will always advance SC every level. Thus, the duel advancement levels will only really affect your preexisting wizard levels, so it doesn't matter if you take UM before SC. You would have to lose one level of UM anyway, since SC has to be your 11th level. Thus, taking 1 before SC allows you to take the other 9 after SC to make an even 10 levels.

Ah, I see it now.


The 2nd level of Spellthief wouldn't be bad to take. It would give you +1 BAB and +1 to Ref and Will, IIRC. Another alternative would be a dip in Duskblade, which would interact funny with MST and SC as well.

+1 Will only. The abilities don't seem too useful.

Neither do the Duskblade's, but then there is the lovely +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Will to look at.

A two-level dip in swordsage looks like it would add fun. :smallbiggrin:


Alternatively, Bard1/Duskblade3/Wizard5/ST1/SC1/AbjChamp5/UM4 with MST would be amusing.

By now we are kinda breakin things into a crazy realm.

I also recently used Abjurant Champion, oddly enough.

So what are we thinking vis-a-vis useful feats, spells etc? I've never done a bard before.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-16, 12:25 AM
You could start the build off as a buffer bard, go with a Silverbrow Human with Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, get Song of the Heart (ECS) and pick up the spell Inspirational Boost (SC) along with a Badge of Valor (MIC). Your Inspire Courage will add +4d6 Fire damage to your party's melee and ranged attacks, but not to spells. Get Spellthief early in the build with Master Spellthief asap and use Steal Spell whenever possible. Maybe grab Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (CW and DMG) for something with multiple natural weapon attacks, each of which will get the +4d6 fire damage. Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) would also be good for that, you could get both and just spend every fight inspiring and letting your minions attack to save your spells for noncombat problems until you get the higher level ones.

Keld Denar
2009-03-16, 01:29 AM
Unfortunately, Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competance, which requires Bard3 which none of the later builds we've discussed included. That knocks off a +1 from your IC. You could do more bard though. I've always wanted to run a Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virt+8. This drops out a lot of the shanananananananananagens of casting, but in return picks up nearly full bardic music progression. The Mindbender dip + Mind Sight is almost too tasty to give up, especially with Glitterdust on your bardic spell list to ensure that your party is never suprised or disadvantaged against invisible foes, but you could drop it if you really needed to. That route would benefit greatly from optimized Inspire Courage and probably Dragonfire Inspiration, along with your full nearly full Bardic casting and full Sublime Chord casting. At lowish levels, you can disable reflex with grease and will with Glitterdust. Get a +1 Sudden Stunning longsword that you can throw with Whirling Blade to gain another ranged reflex disable and method of delivering your sweet sweet IC damage. Mindbender also gives you telepathy, so you can perform in your allies heads, circumventing the problem of announcing "The Hero's Are Here" in true OotS fasion. Remember, they need only to "hear" you, which they can, in their minds. So you are a walking +6d6 or so damage aura who also tosses out potent disables. Talk about an effective party member. You are Batman in the sense of the term, with spells and effects to boost your party, hinder your foes, and provide tools to solve every problem. You just do it with more flare and pizzaz than a wizard does, because you DON'T dump Cha!

Quietus
2009-03-16, 02:47 AM
Unfortunately, Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competance, which requires Bard3 which none of the later builds we've discussed included. That knocks off a +1 from your IC. You could do more bard though. I've always wanted to run a Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virt+8. This drops out a lot of the shanananananananananagens of casting, but in return picks up nearly full bardic music progression. The Mindbender dip + Mind Sight is almost too tasty to give up, especially with Glitterdust on your bardic spell list to ensure that your party is never suprised or disadvantaged against invisible foes, but you could drop it if you really needed to. That route would benefit greatly from optimized Inspire Courage and probably Dragonfire Inspiration, along with your full nearly full Bardic casting and full Sublime Chord casting. At lowish levels, you can disable reflex with grease and will with Glitterdust. Get a +1 Sudden Stunning longsword that you can throw with Whirling Blade to gain another ranged reflex disable and method of delivering your sweet sweet IC damage. Mindbender also gives you telepathy, so you can perform in your allies heads, circumventing the problem of announcing "The Hero's Are Here" in true OotS fasion. Remember, they need only to "hear" you, which they can, in their minds. So you are a walking +6d6 or so damage aura who also tosses out potent disables. Talk about an effective party member. You are Batman in the sense of the term, with spells and effects to boost your party, hinder your foes, and provide tools to solve every problem. You just do it with more flare and pizzaz than a wizard does, because you DON'T dump Cha!


And on top of all that - it feels a lot less cheesy than the other, spellthief-based build. You personally aren't going to break anything, not obviously anyway... you just make it much easier for your allies to break them for you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-16, 02:50 AM
He does have one open level if he includes Spellthief 1, so he can easily take a third Bard level. A Mindbender dip would be perfect for that but he specified a good alignment, otherwise I'd have thrown it out here a while ago. An Inspire Courage build can use up a lot of feats in a hurry, but it's spectacular for the early game when he won't have much else to offer the party. Since he's never played a bard before this is an easy introduction to how powerful it can be. Silverbrow Human, Dragonfire Inspiration and Wild Cohort (Badger) at 1, Song of the Heart at 3, Improved Familiar at 6 for a Krenshar (CW list), get the Spellthief level at 9 with Master Spellthief, take a metamagic feat at Wizard 5 to qualify for UM, after that get whatever spellcaster-focused feats you'd normally take. If possible take a flaw for Extra Music (CV), otherwise you're limited to using it only 3/day for half of your career. At +4 per feat I'd even consider taking it twice with two flaws, though Obtain Familiar is a solid choice for a second flaw so its progression won't stop dead at Wizard 5.

Keld Denar
2009-03-16, 02:55 AM
And on top of all that - it feels a lot less cheesy than the other, spellthief-based build. You personally aren't going to break anything, not obviously anyway... you just make it much easier for your allies to break them for you.

This is the main reason why I DON'T like DFI. DFI is way too flashy, and it calls to much attention back to you. Attention is bad. Regular IC is much more subtle. You get a damage increase both from the +damage, and the +hit which may allow many hits that would have missed to connect, but that damage doesnt' come with a gigantic neon sign that screams "I'M OVERPOWERED" to your DM. DFI is basically vicariously fireballing everything in sight repeatedly for no cost.

CthulhuM
2009-03-16, 04:46 AM
For the record, there's an alternate spellthief in dragon (don't have the reference, unfortunately) that switches your spellthief casting progression from being paladin-like to being bard-like (so capping out at 6th level spells, instead of 4th). In exchange, I think you only get sneak attack at first level (which wouldn't matter if you were just advancing casting with a PrC) and might give up something else (skill points, maybe?).

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-16, 05:55 AM
In Spell compendium there's written that you can expand Shugenja spell list with elemental-based or elemental flavoured spells.

It worked very well for our Shugenja.

For Warmage... eclectic learning from PHII?

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 07:16 AM
Dragon Magic is a source we do not have.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 09:25 AM
Well, looks like I end up with a colossal Will save and on-par Fort and Ref with this build, if Duskblade is the missing level. I also noticed that I can burn Duskblade spells for UM's augmented casting (as long as the LA is no greater than 1) so that would be a plus.

Other recommendations on feats? Equipment?

dobu
2009-03-16, 09:50 AM
no love for the sha'ir? it's out of the Dragon Compendium. a Cha based fullcaster, with an unbelievable flexibility in terms of spell selection :)

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-16, 10:56 AM
Three words:

Arcane. Variant. Swordsage.

:smallwink::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Also, give warlock another chance. Eventually they can access any spell from any list with their twelfth level ability and the Scribe Scroll feat. It's easy for them to use scrolls, wands or other magic items once they hit level 4, since they can count on 10's when rolling UMD skill checks.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 11:42 AM
I've been warned that arcane swordsage is gooey molten cheese. Also no ToB.

Although I wonder how a level of swordsage would look in this build... :smallbiggrin: I think I'd run out of use for a party at that point.

AmberVael
2009-03-16, 12:04 PM
I've been warned that arcane swordsage is gooey molten cheese. Also no ToB.

Although I wonder how a level of swordsage would look in this build... :smallbiggrin: I think I'd run out of use for a party at that point.

Having played an arcane swordsage before, I believe I can say it is overrated.

Given the restrictions suggested in the book (you're limited to three schools, I believe), and also the number of spells you'd know (you know less than a sorcerer), you're not really amazingly powerful. You can get a Warlock-esque caster going, perhaps with a bit more oomph behind you, but it isn't ubertastic.

I'm sure there are some ways to break it, but any reasonable DM allowing this method will eliminate them (I mean, you can't argue that goes against RAW in this case- to actually create an arcane swordsage class takes more work than it would initially appear, and there are no set out stats for them- just suggestions).

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 12:32 PM
I think I'll stick to the sublime chord idea for now... it's got a lot of stuff behind it. Tips on feat selection or spell selection? Gear?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-16, 12:56 PM
An Illumian with the Vaulnaen runeword would probably be a good pick for this character. I'd still go for the Inspire Courage + minions early game build, just leave out Dragonfire Inspiration. You'll be giving everyone +4 to attack and damage, and with two companions who each get a claw/claw/bite routine the rest of the party won't be catching up in damage output until you've got some higher level spells. At that point you can switch out the Badger for a Dire Eagle (if he'll allow something from RoS by then) and/or switch the Krenshar for a Hippogryph, and ride around on whichever one you want.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 02:00 PM
That's Incarnum, correct? It's not available.

AmberVael
2009-03-16, 02:15 PM
That's Incarnum, correct? It's not available.

Nope, not Incarnum. Illumians come from Races of Destiny.

Keld Denar
2009-03-16, 02:17 PM
That's Incarnum, correct? It's not available.

Illumians are from Races of Destiny. They are kinda a funky alien race that lives among us and collect info. They have mostly human traits, except for a rune of power. The rune is made up of 2 different words, in the case of the above example "Vaul" and "Naen". Vaul is the sigil for Charisma, and Naen is the sigil for int and the mind. Combined they all the character to use a spontaneous casting spell slot to cast a spell they have prepared in a prepared spell slot. Thus, you could memorize a spell on your Wizard list, then cast it with a Bard or Sublime Chord spell slot twice per day. Not hugely powerful, but still a nice feature.

Which build did you settle on? The bard heavy one? Or the wizard heavy one? If you let me know which you pick, it would be easier to help you with spells and feats and item suggestions. Also, what level would you be starting at?

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 02:26 PM
Races of Destiny? I don't know if that one's allowed... I'll have to check.

I think I'm looking at Brd2/Wiz5/Spellthief1/Duskblade1/UltimateMagus1/SublimeChord1/UltimateMagus9, giving me full Sublime Chord casting, 13th level wizard casting, 2nd level bard casting and 1st level duskblade casting. The latter two are a bit useless except for charging Arcane Channeled Silent Spell, though. I figured I'd grab Master Spellthief on 9th level to average all caster levels, letting me put the first level of UM into Wizard.

All told, I'll end up casting at CL 24 minimum, with +9 BAB, +6 Fort, +7 Ref and +20 Will, if my math's correct.

Do you have any better recommendations on it?

Keld Denar
2009-03-16, 03:05 PM
Well, your bardic music is gonna be nearly totally gimped given that you will only have 3 effective level of Bard. Even with Inspirational Boost (SpC) and a Badge of Valor (MIC), you'd still only be talking about a +3 song a very limited number of times per day. If you really really really wanted to do it, pick up a Vest of Legends which gets you to effective level 8 for +2 base, and take the dirty Words of Creation (BoED) to double it to 4 which would give you a +6 bard song by about ECL11 with IB and a BoV. Thats ok, but it comes at kinda a high cost.

I'd suggest focusing on Metamagic. Pick up Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell and maybe Split Ray or such. Maybe Chain spell so you can abuse your hyperinflated caster level. If you want to be real bastard, take Arcane Disciple: Good for your SC casting. This would give you the spell Holy Word, which, with your CL abuse, would pretty much 1shot anything that isn't good or a god. I probably wouldn't do that though, since casting of Holy Word tends to make rocks fall...no save. Focus on typical Batman style spells, especially with your SC casting. Other than that, good luck. The build is gonna have high and low points where it will pull ahead or fall behind the power curve, but overall should be fairly straightforward.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 03:51 PM
Well, as the primary caster I figure I'll always have something better to do than try bardic music anyway. Metamagic's great, but there will definitely be limited use for me as a buffer.

Is it possible to use multiple Arcane Channelings to employ higher metamagic on the same spell, or no? Because that would be awesome.

Are there any notable low points or overall weaknesses that I should be concerned about?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-16, 05:09 PM
Other than the typical early level weaknesses of most spellcaster, there's not much to consider. I'd suggest taking Master Spellthief as early as possible, since it allows you to cast all of your arcane spells in light armor without spell failure. Get Battle Caster (CA) and you can cast in medium armor unhindered. You could even take Battle Caster before getting Master Spellthief and it will still work, since it extends to every class that can cast spells in armor. You can go Bard 2/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3 to get Master Spellthief at 6, though I'd probably want to start the character with Bard 1/ Duskblade 1 just so you get some decent weapon proficiencies. Inspire Courage applies to both melee and ranged attacks, so use a bow in the early levels with light armor and pick your wizard spells for out of combat and no somatic components, such as True Strike and Benign Transposition.

You could also consider using the Fighter feat variant of Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), to get a feat from the Fighter bonus feat list at Wizard 1 and 5 instead of Scribe Scroll and the standard Wizard bonus feats. That can get Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, also good for using Ray spells with Split Ray, or get Improved Initiative and Improved Toughness (CW) or other good fighter feats. You should also consider specializing in Conjuration to get Abrupt Jaunt (PH2) instead of a familiar. Since it's an immediate action to use, you can jaunt out of reach of someone's attack and they'll automatically miss. Ban Evocation and Enchantment, since you'll still be able to get the few good higher level Evocation spells with Sublime Chord.

With an Illumian (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) with Vaulnaen you'll be able to use spell slots from other classes to cast your prepared Wizard spells. For example, if you have Magic Missile prepared you can cast it with a Bard or Duskblade spell slot and not incur spell failure for light armor, at the caster level of whichever class you spent a spell slot from. It only works 2/day, but later on you'll be able to spend Sublime Chord spell slots to cast the higher level Wizard spells you have prepared. Illumians have the Human subtype, so they count as humans for meeting prerequisites and can take Able Learner.

Illumian
1. Bard 1, Naen, Able Learner
2. Duskblade 1
3. Wizard 1, Point Blank Shot or Improved Toughness/Initiative, Battle Caster
4. Spellthief 1
5. Wizard 2
6. Wizard 3, Master Spellthief
7. Wizard 4
8. Wizard 5, Precise Shot or Imrpoved Toughness/Initiative
9. Bard 2, any metamagic feat
10. Ultimate Magus 1
11. Sublime Chord 1
12+ Ultimate Magus 2-10

When picking metamagic feats keep in mind that you can only use one metamagic feat on a spell affected by UM's Augmented Casting. That means metamagic you'd want to stack like Maximize and Empower aren't that great, but stand alone metamagic feats like Split Ray, Quicken, Twin, Chain, and maybe Persistent Spell are much better. Also remember that you won't have any 3rd level or lower Sublime Chord spell slots to use to power metamagic feats, so +3 and lower metamagic can only be augmented onto Sublime Chord spells by spending Wizard spell slots. Persistent Spell isn't the best choice since there's a level cap on what spells it can be used for, plus there's a limit to how many times/day you can use Augmented Casting. I'd stick to tricks like Split Ray with Enervation and Ray of Light and Chain Spell with Finger of Death and buffs. Persistent Spell could be good later on for buffs like Displacement and any spell with Swift in the name, but I wouldn't get it early on.

I'd get metamagic rods, like Lesser Extend, Maximize, and Quicken, since all of your spells will be 3rd level and lower until you start taking Sublime Chord. The Raiment of the Four set from MIC is especially good for a few more spell options and passive effects. A Ring of Theurgy (CA) would be good since you could spend downtime to store situational spells from your Wizard casting to be called on later if you need them. An Orange Prism Ioun Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might (CA) will both apply to all of your classes. Pick up a Mithral Buckler and get +1 on it as early as possible, then maybe get Reflecting on it. Wear Breastplate until you can afford Mithral Full Plate. Every character should get a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon in the higher levels, it's much more economical than getting fortification on armor or a shield if it's higher than +1 or has other enhancement-priced abilities. A Ring of Freedom of Movement is also sort of a requirement for higher level spellcasters. Other than that the standard ability score enhancement items and basic AC/Save boosting items can fill in the gaps.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 05:57 PM
I'm definitely going to pawn off my familiar in favor of some cool ability. I don't know if Races of Destiny will be allowed yet.

Can UM's Arcane Channeling put Quicken on spontaneous spells?

Spell storing would be a definite plus, since I could then spend wizard slots to channel metamagic when necessary.

Persistent's a no, but a few others are definites. Given that build, are there any non-metamagic feats I should look into?

Keld Denar
2009-03-16, 07:00 PM
Meh, the only non-metamagic feat I really like for casters is Minor Shapeshift. That gives you a pool of HP equal to your CL (hyper inflated) as long as you have 1 spell from the polymorph subschool 4th level or higher in reserve. Walking around with an extra 30 or so HP gives you a buffer in case you actually DO get hit and protects you from spells like Power Words.

AmberVael
2009-03-16, 07:26 PM
It's also worth noting that Minor Shapeshift is a swift action to use. If you're hit in combat and it depletes all of your HP, it only takes a moment to restore it all. It's a VERY handy ability.

Edit: Also, if you want to use metamagic quicker (or Quicken metamagic) with spontaneous spells, look into Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage.

Gnorman
2009-03-16, 07:44 PM
I think I'm looking at Brd2/Wiz5/Spellthief1/Duskblade1/UltimateMagus1/SublimeChord1/UltimateMagus9, giving me full Sublime Chord casting, 13th level wizard casting, 2nd level bard casting and 1st level duskblade casting. The latter two are a bit useless except for charging Arcane Channeled Silent Spell, though. I figured I'd grab Master Spellthief on 9th level to average all caster levels, letting me put the first level of UM into Wizard.


Oh my god please send me your character's biography and background when you do this because reading a fluff-based justification for all those classes would be epic.

"Right, yeah, I spent some time as a busker. Then I went to wizard college. I dropped out after a while and got caught up with a bad crowd, some real burgle-and-plunder types, pillaging and looting arcane laboratories wherever we could find them. Then I was rescued by an ancient elven warband who helped me escape the thieves' guild and taught me a few tricks. Went back to wizard college (somehow managed to convince my professor to let me attend part-time classes at the bardic college, too). And that's my life story."

I kid (mostly), but actually... that might work.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 07:51 PM
Oh my god please send me your character's biography and background when you do this because reading a fluff-based justification for all those classes would be epic.

Funny you should mention that.

She's going public... in a big way. :smallamused:

Oh yes. :belkar:

And yeah, the justification is indeed going to be epic.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 08:37 PM
Oh, incidentally, can anyone suggest a race that increases Charisma?

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:43 PM
Star Elf [UE], Lesser Aasimar [PGtF], Dragonwrought Venerable (any) Kobold [RoTD] for LA +0 options. There's also the Magic-Blooded template (which adds +2 Cha, -2 Wis IIRC) in Dragon Magazine #306 or something. That's about it without LA.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 08:49 PM
What's UE? And I'll go look at the Dragon thing, although it may be inadmissible...

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:51 PM
Unapproachable East.

The Glyphstone
2009-03-16, 09:03 PM
Spellscale from Races of the Dragon.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 09:14 PM
Illumian's off the table... I'm thinking star elf. Thoughts?

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 09:16 PM
Star Elves are fun. Unfortunately they lack the natural Longbow proficiency of Elves, but of course, your build gets it anyways. Other than that, looks like they fit just fine as long as you mind the Con-penalty (+2 Cha, -2 Con).

AmberVael
2009-03-16, 09:20 PM
There's also Hellbred from Fiendish Codex II. Very interesting race, that. It also gives a -2 con penalty, but has some other abilities which are unusual and handy.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 09:26 PM
I'm safe on the Con penalty, and I have a place to get banished back to.

Now, feats:


{table]Flaw feat|
Flaw feat|
1st level|
3rd level|
6th level|
Wizard bonus feat|
9th level|
12th level|
15th level|
Ultimate Magus bonus feat|
18th level|
Ultimate Magus bonus feat|[/table]

UM can take metamagic feats only for bonus feats...

I need Master Spellthief for certain, and Rapid Metamagic seems like a good choice later on. What should the rest be?

AmberVael
2009-03-17, 12:39 AM
If you do get Rapid Metamagic (or even if you don't), definitely pick up Quicken spell. Since you have Ultimate Magus's ability for use with metamagic, it makes it a lot more worthwhile.

Chain spell can be pretty useful, if you have the right kind of spells, same with Extend and Heighten spell (though less so on Heighten- if you weren't playing a Bard I wouldn't even mention it, but Bards have a lot of DC based spells from what I recall...)

Really, the type of metamagic that will most be handy will typically be determined by what spells you choose, so I don't have many other suggestions there.

I do think Minor Shapeshift should be emphasized again. It can be a really useful reserve feat. I'm personally fond of Stormbolt as well, as it makes a good backup damage ability- supernatural area attack with no saving throw at will? The only real downside is the short range on it, and you never know when a little lightning might come in handy.

afroakuma
2009-03-17, 07:01 AM
Yeah, the range on Stormbolt is pathetic, sadly.

Minor Shapeshift is a pretty good place to start, though. I'm definitely picking up Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell.

afroakuma
2009-03-18, 11:12 PM
Are there any further suggestions on this in terms of feat selection, spell selection, magic items?