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Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 05:33 PM
Hey guys I was wondering what are some good items that make clerics cheesy or just broken thanks guys for the help.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 05:39 PM
Nightsticks.

Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 05:40 PM
Where are those?

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 05:40 PM
Libris Mortis.

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 05:43 PM
Nightsticks.

To explain this:

There is a feat, Divine Metamagic, that allows a character to spend turn undead attempts to apply metamagic to a spell in place of increased spell level. Nightsticks are an item which grant additional turn undead attempts, which take effect even if not wielded, and which technically stack with themselves. Therefore, you can carry several nightsticks, use divine metamagic to Persist many powerful personal-range buff spells which would normally last mere rounds/level, and thus be a more powerful, more durable melee combatant than any core melee class while also maintaining the capability to cast many other spells.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 05:45 PM
To explain this:

There is a feat, Divine Metamagic, that allows a character to spend turn undead attempts to apply metamagic to a spell in place of increased spell level. Nightsticks are an item which grant additional turn undead attempts, which take effect even if not wielded, and which technically stack with themselves. Therefore, you can carry several nightsticks, use divine metamagic to Persist many powerful personal-range buff spells which would normally last mere rounds/level, and thus be a more powerful, more durable melee combatant than any core melee class while also maintaining the capability to cast many other spells.

Great, steal half the fun of discovery as to how it is cheesy.

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 05:55 PM
Great, steal half the fun of discovery as to how it is cheesy.

It's not very helpful to tell someone what you need to break something without actually telling them how to break it. It'd be like me telling you you need a soldering iron to destroy your computer, and then not telling you how to apply said soldering iron. You might just decide to use it as a crude hammer, which wouldn't be nearly as effective as actually melting or burning away components.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-15, 05:57 PM
He didn't exactly ask how to break the cleric, though. He asked what items break it, and where they are found.

Never answer a question unasked, my parents always say.

They are lawyers, though, so that might have something to do with it.

Theodoriph
2009-03-15, 05:59 PM
lol...hilarious =D

@OP

It might help if people knew with what kind of syle you wanted to play your cleric...unless you just want to play it in the cheesiest way possible.

Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 09:10 PM
She really doesn't know and with me having no experience in clerics any advice would be helpfull and appreciated. My specialty is assassins and evil guys (gm's job) so yea not exactly the one to give advice on clerics. I heard of a tall tale of something called a cleric zilla? So ya to answer the question ^^^ any advice would be great. AND TO CLARIFY please say how its broken or how to use it so I can explain it to my friend. Thanks again guys for the advice.

Graymayre
2009-03-15, 09:12 PM
ok, so the first thing you do is get a candle of invocation...

Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 09:23 PM
ok, so the first thing you do is get a candle of invocation...

Okay Why? If this is a joke please do not post the response. If it legitimately leads to some way of breaking a cleric then please post it. I just do not see how a candle of Invocation would make a cleric broken

Graymayre
2009-03-15, 09:46 PM
Okay Why? If this is a joke please do not post the response. If it legitimately leads to some way of breaking a cleric then please post it. I just do not see how a candle of Invocation would make a cleric broken

let's just say you don't need to be a kobold to use infinite wishes. :smalltongue:

Clerics have one of the easiest times getting one, since you can say the name of that whats-his-face-for-free-wish god by making a good knowledge religion check.

Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 10:26 PM
let's just say you don't need to be a kobold to use infinite wishes. :smalltongue:

Clerics have one of the easiest times getting one, since you can say the name of that whats-his-face-for-free-wish god by making a good knowledge religion check.

Okay I don't get it. Can you please explain it and are you sure you can do it as RAW?

Gorbash
2009-03-15, 10:30 PM
Clerics have one of the easiest times getting one, since you can say the name of that whats-his-face-for-free-wish god by making a good knowledge religion check.

Pazuzu, I think.

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 11:11 PM
Okay I don't get it. Can you please explain it and are you sure you can do it as RAW?

The Candle of Invocation has, among other features, the ability to Gate in a creature with the same alignment as the Candle. So, you get a LE Candle and use it to Gate a Noble Efreet (IIRC it has to be noble). Gate allows you to compel the called creature to perform a short-term service for no cost, so you compel it to spend 3 standard actions (a short-term servie) to use its 3 daily uses of the Wish spell-like ability all noble Efreets possess to do some things for you, such as granting bonuses to ability scores, creating ludicrously-powerful magic items, and, finally, creating a LE Candle of Invocation for you before dismissing the Efreet.

Then, since you have a LE Candle of Invocation, you use it to Gate a Noble Efreet and get more Wishes, including yet another Candle, and continue the loop indefinately. Thus, infinite Wishes as early as level 1.

Also note that, since the Efreets cast Wish as a spell-like, they do not have to spend any XP. Wish's Create Magic Item clause puts an additional XP cost on creating magic items based on the magic item's power. As a result, the Efreet can create, absolutely for free, any magic item, including a theoretical +10491683187189467138946-equivalent high-epic item.



Actually, anyone can do this. Wizards actually have it easier, as they can sell their spellbook to buy the Candle more easily. The Pazuzu references a Demon Prince who will grant anyone a Wish if they say his name 3 times at the cost of pushing your alignment towards CE. You can then use that Wish to get a Candle and start the loop.

Os1ris09
2009-03-15, 11:16 PM
Okay while thats powerful wouldnt most if not all DM's say NO instantly. I mean ya while thats broken I was hoping for solid equipment DM's 99% of the time agree with. Because i am pretty sure my dm that my friend and I are playing with will instantly say no to that type of exploitation.

Fawsto
2009-03-15, 11:20 PM
Never answer a question unasked, my parents always say.

They are lawyers, though, so that might have something to do with it.


Yeah, definitely. :smallamused:

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 11:28 PM
Okay while thats powerful wouldnt most if not all DM's say NO instantly. I mean ya while thats broken I was hoping for solid equipment DM's 99% of the time agree with. Because i am pretty sure my dm that my friend and I are playing with will instantly say no to that type of exploitation.

Yeah, most DM's do ban infinite loops basically as soon as they spot them. They're probably only really bringing it up because you're asking how to break a class that is considered top-tier already. Really, Clerics are usually seen as being below the Archivist, Wizard, and Druid... and that's it. Every other class out there is seen as less powerful, so if people are asked how to make one of these even stronger, they tend to break out the cheese.

As far as optimizing a Cleric goes, you're going to be more reliant on spell selection than equipment selection. Most of your slots are going to go towards assorted buff spells. Most of those you'll want to be hours or days/level, with fewer 10 min/level, minute/level, or round/level buffs. With these, you can increase your durability and offensive power to the point where most battles will not be difficult.

This is also why Divine Metamagic Persist Spell is so powerful, and by extension why Nightsticks are broken. By Persisting the stronger round/level buffs, like Divine Power, much earlier than normal and in lower-level slots than would normally be possible, you're effectively at the top of your game all day long, every day.

Heavily buffed characters are vulnerable to dispels, though, so you'll want to have equipment to defend yourself against them. A String of Prayer Beads, and specifically the Bead of Karma (+4 caster levels) can be used to make your spells harder to dispel and, since your buffs last all day, can be used in the morning on all of your buffs. An orange Ioun Stone gives another +1 CL. Both are highly useful, as are any other items that make it harder for enemies to remove your buffs.

Metamagic rods, particularly Quicken Spell, can let you use your shorter-duration buffs at the beginning of combat without spending precious turns to do it. They're another thing to look into.

Os1ris09
2009-03-16, 12:12 AM
Yeah, most DM's do ban infinite loops basically as soon as they spot them. They're probably only really bringing it up because you're asking how to break a class that is considered top-tier already. Really, Clerics are usually seen as being below the Archivist, Wizard, and Druid... and that's it. Every other class out there is seen as less powerful, so if people are asked how to make one of these even stronger, they tend to break out the cheese.

As far as optimizing a Cleric goes, you're going to be more reliant on spell selection than equipment selection. Most of your slots are going to go towards assorted buff spells. Most of those you'll want to be hours or days/level, with fewer 10 min/level, minute/level, or round/level buffs. With these, you can increase your durability and offensive power to the point where most battles will not be difficult.

This is also why Divine Metamagic Persist Spell is so powerful, and by extension why Nightsticks are broken. By Persisting the stronger round/level buffs, like Divine Power, much earlier than normal and in lower-level slots than would normally be possible, you're effectively at the top of your game all day long, every day.

Heavily buffed characters are vulnerable to dispels, though, so you'll want to have equipment to defend yourself against them. A String of Prayer Beads, and specifically the Bead of Karma (+4 caster levels) can be used to make your spells harder to dispel and, since your buffs last all day, can be used in the morning on all of your buffs. An orange Ioun Stone gives another +1 CL. Both are highly useful, as are any other items that make it harder for enemies to remove your buffs.

Metamagic rods, particularly Quicken Spell, can let you use your shorter-duration buffs at the beginning of combat without spending precious turns to do it. They're another thing to look into.

So if I were to ask you for good equipment on optimizing a second line fighter/healer then I would probably get some answers. Also where is that divine feat located because it is not in the complete divine unless I overlooked it. Also if you wouldnt mind could you please list the buff spells your refering to so I can look them up and study them so I can effectively tell my friend how they are useful and good. Thanks again for helping me sorry if I seem agitated I just literally know jack and crap about clerics. Mostly spell casters in general.:smallfrown:

~Corvus~
2009-03-16, 12:35 AM
So if I were to ask you for good equipment on optimizing a second line fighter/healer then I would probably get some answers. Also where is that divine feat located because it is not in the complete divine unless I overlooked it. Also if you wouldnt mind could you please list the buff spells your refering to so I can look them up and study them so I can effectively tell my friend how they are useful and good.

Hopefully your GM doesn't mind you metagaming...cause this certainly is ^_^.

Okay, besides tindertwigs, well, more tindertwigs. A wand of Cure Moderate Wounds is nice for healing without expending your spells, (or any wand of Cure [insert level of healing here] is good) and if you spend some time on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) you can figure out which buffing spells are worth taking. Seriously, its quite intuitive. Start with the largest-radius and longest-lasting ones, and think about which ones work for your party.

In terms of low-level equipment, the best is well...the orange ioun stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) (if you can get one) good heavy armor, and well...if you want a wonderful race, the Vanarra from Oriental Adventures is great because they get +2 Int and +2Wis for a -2Str. This may not be great for attacking purposes, but if the cleric's sole purpose is going to be healing/buffing, that curious monkey for a race is freaking awesome. No Level Adjustment either.

About the feats... page 78 of the Complete Divine for the table reference to "Divine Feats" and in particular "Divine Metamagic" which can be found on page 80 for the specifics.


Thanks again for helping me sorry if I seem agitated I just literally know jack and crap about clerics. Mostly spell casters in general.:smallfrown:
:smallwink: It takes work and experience. Keep going, you'll get it.

NecroRebel
2009-03-16, 01:14 AM
Yeah, really if you just go through your books and pick out spells that qualify for Persistant Spell, you'll do alright.

In any case, you're probably better off looking for advice from someone with more time and experience on their hands than I have. You might try googling Cleric Handbook, as there are many extremely experienced people who have spent a lot of time to write articles on the topic of optimization, and traditionally they have been named _______ Handbook.

Doing that myself, I found two that look good, here (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=691564) and here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0). The second seems to be missing a spell list and the former doesn't list many feats, but between the two you should be able to build a very strong Cleric.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-16, 09:03 AM
OK, here's a powerful combination that's not too cheesy. Use the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant, which gets the Knowledge domain (all Knowledges as class skills) as a bonus, plus (6 + INT mod) skill points/level. Add the Knowledge Devotion feat (Complete Champion), which gives you bonuses to attack and damage rolls based on Knowledge checks for the 6 types of Knowledge specific to creatures. So spend those skill points to max out the 6 Knowledge skills and you'll have bonuses to fight everything. Then just cast Divine Power to fix the Cloistered Cleric's poor BAB and suddenly you're a combat powerhouse. (And if you need more hit points, cast Vampiric Touch and attack with that. You'll get back the damage you deal -- including your Knowledge Devotion bonus -- in temporary hit points.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-16, 03:30 PM
She really doesn't know and with me having no experience in clerics any advice would be helpfull and appreciated. My specialty is assassins and evil guys (gm's job) so yea not exactly the one to give advice on clerics. I heard of a tall tale of something called a cleric zilla? So ya to answer the question ^^^ any advice would be great. AND TO CLARIFY please say how its broken or how to use it so I can explain it to my friend. Thanks again guys for the advice.

Okay, how to make a Cleric-Zilla, piss off your GM, and your entire party, and probably get ejected from further gaming sessions for completely overpowering and trivializing any and all plot devices from 6th level on...

Nightsticks are the key to the degree of success for this build, because it depends heavily on your ability to Turn Undead many, many times per day.

First off, you go with Cloistered Cleric. Why? You effectively loose nothing and gain so much.

Second, there are a couple of domains you should get to pull this off quicker, but I can't remember them offhand. One gives you Extend Spell and the other one does something else. Basically it sets up the prerequisites for you easily.

And the cheese? It's called 'Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell'.

You use this with two spells at least, and make the tanks obsolete. These two spells are: Divine Power and Righteous Might. With these spells active, you have a full BAB, Large size, bunch of bonuses to various stats, and damage reduction.

The other thing you want to do is get the feat Divine Spell Power. Use this with the Holy Word/Blasphemy/Word of Law/Wordof Chaos spells to insta-gib your opponents. Basically, the above four spells are tied to an alignment, and effects are based on the difference between your caster level and their hit dice, and does not allow for a saving throw. With a sufficiently large enough difference in your favor, the effect is simply 'you are dead, no save, go away'.

Os1ris09
2009-03-16, 03:32 PM
Okay thank you for the help guys. :smallsmile:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-16, 04:03 PM
NEVER NEVER NEVER use wands of Cure Moderate Wounds. Use wands of lesser Vigor. For 750gp, they will heal you 11 hp per charge over the course of 11 rounds. Use this for Out of Combat Healing, and prepare a couple of spells in case you need In Combat Healing.

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:08 PM
Beyond the obvious stuff, there isn't much on the top of my head. Just listing handy stuff here with respect to your question in the other thread. Some are obvious:
Reliquary Holy Symbol [MIC]: Extra turn attempts never hurt, Cleric qualifies for at least two of the three relatively automatically. Great for fueling Divine Metamagic, Divine Spell Power or other divine feats (actual turning is better either not done, or done through Greater Turning)
Strand of Prayer Beads [DMG] (especially Karma beads): +4 CL when casting your buffs.
Ankh of Ascension [MIC]: +4 CL to 3 spells of your choice. Might pay to get multiples.
Ring of Sustenance [DMG]: Clerics don't need rest to prepare spells so this means you get by with 2 hours of sleep. Of course, Remove Fatigue could theorethically be used to circumvent the need for sleeping altogether.
Nightstick [Libris Mortis]: Lots of turn attempts to fuel divine feats. You only need these in your possession to get them.
Orange Prism Ioun Stone [DMG]: Boosts your CL. Enough said.

You'll want heaviest armor you can wear while still gaining full Dex-bonus to AC. Along with an animated shield (if you intend on laying the smackdown with a weapon, be it a two-handed melee weapon or a bow) or even a real shield (if you intend on being solely a spellcaster). They shouldn't be enchanted (unless there're some spiffy special abilities like Soulfire [BoED] or Fortifications [DMG] you'd want): Cleric has the "Magic Vestment"-spell on his list that handles enchanting.

Other than that, lots of Metamagic Rods (Rod of Chain is great for buffing the entire party's items with Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon and so on while under the effect of all your CL buffs in the morning burning only 1-2 spell slots; obviously you'll want Rod of Quicken when you can afford 'em) along with mayhap Gloves of Storing (free action to acquire an item from such a Glove; perfect for quick acquisition of Metamagic Rods).

Pearls of Power are obviously handy too, and the party should get a Wand of Lesser Vigor so the Cleric doesn't need to waste his time healing people all the time (or the cleric could just Persist Mass Lesser Vigor on the entire party if he runs Divine Metamagic: Persist route).

Os1ris09
2009-03-16, 10:54 PM
Okay thanks guys ( and eldariel for responding from a seperate thread :smallbiggrin:) I think I am starting to grasp the cleric thing a little more than what i did before.

Maltore
2009-03-17, 07:46 AM
There's one classic cleric trick I haven't seen here yet: you take the Healing domain and the Domain Spontaneity feat. Normally, a cleric can only convert spells into Cure spells, but this combination allows you to spotaneously cast Heal as well (once you reach the right level, of course).

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 08:05 AM
The Candle of Invocation trick as I've seen it expressed does not work by RAW.


Wish:

# Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
# Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
# Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.



Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9


Since the candle allows you to duplicate a 9th level spell and you're only allowed to duplicate an 8th level spell or lower (safely), then most DMs will likely disallow it...or if they want to have fun...pervert it.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 08:14 AM
The Candle of Invocation does not provide Wishes. It provides a Gate spell.

The noble efreet called in through the Gate provides the Wishes.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 08:17 AM
I know. Gate is a 9th level spell. Thus the Candle of Invocation allows you to cast a 9th level spell. Since Wish only safely allows for duplication of 8th level spells, and you are using it so you can duplicate a 9th level spell...then the DM can pervert away...or disallow it. :smalltongue:

What you're basically doing is wishing for a "scroll" (a means of casting) of Gate instead of wishing to cast the spell directly...and for a DM...there's no difference between the two when it comes to Wish's stipulation about duplication of 8th level spells or below.

I think the same thing happens when you wish for a ring of three wishes. :smalltongue: Technically you can try...the wish spell doesn't stipulate that you can't wish for a ring of three wishes, but DMs will rule that you're trying to duplicate a 9th level spell, which doesn't fall within the bounds of the spell and thus will pervert it or just say no.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 08:26 AM
I know. Gate is a 9th level spell. Thus the Candle of Invocation allows you to cast a 9th level spell. Since Wish only safely allows for duplication of 8th level spells, and you are using it so you can duplicate a 9th level spell...then the DM can pervert away...or disallow it. :smalltongue:

What you're basically doing is wishing for a "scroll" (a means of casting) of Gate instead of wishing to cast the spell directly...and for a DM...there's no difference between the two when it comes to Wish's stipulation about duplication of 8th level spells or below.

You're wishing for another Candle of Invocation. Which is perfectly legal by RAW. It is a magical item of a reasonable price. If the DM twists it, he's not playing by the rules.

EDIT: Hell, seeing how Wish does not have a limit on the creation of magical items, you can create... anything you want. A +100000000000000 vorpal throwing returning ghost touch weapon? Yes please.

Now, nobody said he has to play by the rules. That's what GM Fiat is for. But it does not make WotC designers less stupid.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 08:29 AM
No...it's not legal by RAW as I've already explained. It's using a wish to duplicate a 9th level spell.

Also, see my edit to my previous post about wishing for a ring of three wishes. :smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 08:34 AM
No...it's not legal by RAW as I've already explained. It's using a wish to duplicate a 9th level spell.

Also, see my edit to my previous post about wishing for a ring of three wishes. :smallsmile:

It's not duplicating a 9th level spell. It's creating a magic item. RAW makes a distinction between those two.

Like I said, WotC designers are stupid. And honestly, few people ever play strictly by RAW. But it doesn't change the fact that it's legal.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 08:42 AM
Sorry, you haven't made a good argument. You're using the wish to duplicate a 9th level spell.

RAW doesn't make a distinction. Raw allows for creating magic items but expressly forbids duplicating spells beneath 8th level. If a magic item duplicates a spell that is above the spell rules (e.g. a rod of true resurrection), said magic item is not within the bounds of RAW and it's left up to the DM to decide what to do with it.

The specific rule trumps the general rule...always.



Edit: You also have to remember RAW doesn't say the effects have to be produced directly by the wish:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

So even if your wish (e.g. wishing for a rod of true resurrection) indirectly leads to a greater effect than those listed, RAW says it's dangerous. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-03-17, 08:49 AM
Sorry, you haven't made a good argument. You're using the wish to duplicate a 9th level spell.

RAW doesn't make a distinction. Raw allows for creating magic items but expressly forbids duplicating spells beneath 8th level. If a magic item duplicates a spell that is above the spell rules, said magic item is not within the bounds of RAW and it's left up to the DM to decide what to do with it.

RAW allows making magic item. Candle of Invocation is a cheap magic item. Its triggered ability is an aspect of a 9th level spell, yes, but the item itself isn't a spell at all or even a spell completion/trigger ability - in short, it has nothing to do with the spell, except a similarity between one of the item effects and the spell effects. You aren't casting a Gate when using Candle of Invocation; you're replicating one of its effects.

Basically, Wish can do any one of the things listed and "creating magic item" is one of them. That use of the ability has nothing to do with the "duplicate a spell"-use. You can either generate an item or duplicate a spell of the appropriate level.

If you generate an item, the limitations that apply to duplicating a spell are ignored, as they aren't limitations specified in the mode of Wish you're using. Also, the game doesn't "see" what the item you create does; all it checks is the price and if it falls into the right range, the item is created regardless of what it does.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 08:51 AM
Also, the game doesn't "see" what the item you create does; all it checks is the price and if it falls into the right range, the item is created regardless of what it does.

According to the d20srd.org, Wish does not have any limits on creating a magic item. So, the price range is irrelevant.

Eldariel
2009-03-17, 08:54 AM
According to the d20srd.org, Wish does not have any limits on creating a magic item. So, the price range is irrelevant.

My bad. Well, it's trivial anyways.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 08:58 AM
RAW allows making magic item. Candle of Invocation is a cheap magic item. Its triggered ability is an aspect of a 9th level spell, yes, but the item itself isn't a spell at all or even a spell completion/trigger ability - in short, it has nothing to do with the spell, except a similarity between one of the item effects and the spell effects. You aren't casting a Gate when using Candle of Invocation; you're replicating one of its effects.


Irrelevant. The Wish says you can "duplicate" a spell of 8th level or lower. Duplicate doesn't have to mean actually casting the spell. And in fact, when you wish a spell...you don't actually cast it. It just duplicates the effects of the spell.


Also irrelevant since: "In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell,"



Basically, Wish can do any one of the things listed and "creating magic item" is one of them. That use of the ability has nothing to do with the "duplicate a spell"-use. You can either generate an item or duplicate a spell of the appropriate level. If you generate an item, the limitations that apply to duplicating a spell are ignored, as they aren't limitations specified in the mode of Wish you're using. Also, the game doesn't "see" what the item you create does; all it checks is the price and if it falls into the right range, the item is created regardless of what it does.

Incorrect. Where the general rule leads to the violation of the specific rule, the specific rule takes precedence.




That being said, your point is irrelevant in any respect. By RAW, wishes cannot indirectly violate those guidelines either without the DM having a looksy and making a decision. :smalltongue: If you wish for A to do B and B is a greater effect than wish can produce, then by RAW you're making a dangerous wish and the DM should look at it and decide what to do.

Eldariel
2009-03-17, 09:06 AM
Irrelevant. The Wish says you can "duplicate" a spell of 8th level or lower. Duplicate doesn't have to mean actually casting the spell. And in fact, when you wish a spell...you don't actually cast it. It just duplicates the effects of the spell.

You're reading it wrong. Here's an excerpt from Wish:

"Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells)."

So yes, the word "duplicate" does mean that this casting of Wish results in the effects of the duplicated spell instead, and thus the word "duplicate" refers to using Wish as another spell. Also, here's another excerpt:

"A wish can produce any one of the following effects."

So "Duplicate a spell of level X" is a possible effect, not a limitation as you're reading it. If you utilize another effect, nothing in the other entries impacts that effect, not limitations, not allowances, nothing. All that matters is what's said in that entry and the general spell description and the "duplicate a spell of level X or lower" is not in the general spell description.


Incorrect. Where the general rule leads to the violation of the specific rule, the specific rule takes precedence.

Specify. I'm quite sure you're wrong, but I'm not sure what you're saying so I'm not gonna ignore this right off the bat. What "specific rule vs. general rule"-scenario was presented in the quoted material? I think you're misunderstanding both of the terms here.


That being said, your point is irrelevant in any respect. By RAW, wishes cannot indirectly violate those guidelines either without the DM having a looksy and making a decision. :smalltongue: If you wish for A to do B and B is a greater effect than wish can produce, then by RAW the DM should look at it and decide what to do.

Yes, and "create a magic item" is a listed effect, independent of the spell level limitations. Therefore creating a Candle works just fine.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 09:26 AM
I'm actually reading it quite right. You don't appear to understand certain aspects of the spell.

Here is the key sentence:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

This sentence imposes a check by the DM on the wish to see if it is producing (directly or indirectly) greater effects than those listed and qualifies as dangerous.

So you make a wish. You claim to be creating a magic item.

The DM has to then ask himself, "Are they using a wish (directly or indirectly) to produce greater effects than the ones listed"

To answer this question, the DM then proceeds to go through the entire list of effects. In the case of the Candle of Invocation, the DM stops at 1 (duplication of spells of 8th level or lower). The DM thinks this is a greater effect. They are trying to produce (in this case you can argue both directly and indirectly) the effect of duplicating a 9th level spell.

The DM says: "That constitutes a dangerous wish. The wish fails (nice DM....or is not used up if they're really nice) or is perverted (mean DM).



Assuming you wished for candle of invocation without the ability to gate, the DM then proceeds to the second guideline and the third and so forth. Eventually the DM realizes all guidelines either check out or have no bearing on the specific wish (e.g. the guideline about resurrecting) and thus, your wish is granted.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 09:32 AM
You don't understand certain aspects of the spell. All those conditions are independent of each other.

Resurrection is a 7th level spell, and not a Wizard / Sorcerer spell. By the first four steps, you could not cast Resurrection through Wish. At all.

Yet, lo and behold, the spell says you can!

I will be the first to admit RAW and WotC are stupid. But you have to admit you're wrong as well.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 09:34 AM
I understand just fine.


I also seem to understand one of the most basic rules about RAW. The specific trumps the general. That is why there is a specific guideline for resurrection. Otherwise it would exceed the power of the wish.


So in this case, the DM would go..."Generally, this cannot be done." --> Ah but wait, there is a specific exemption for this particular spell that trumps the more general rule about spell level. So it's ok.


In the case of the candle of invocation, the spell level requirement is a specific rule that trumps the more general guideline about magic item creation. Which is why it fails the DM's checklist.

Specific trumps general.

Eldariel
2009-03-17, 09:44 AM
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

Greater than these, so if it's greater than all of them, then the check is warranted. It falls under one, hence the check is not warranted. This falls under one. No check.


The DM has to then ask himself, "Are they using a wish (directly or indirectly) to produce greater effects than the ones listed"

Nothing in the spell description says anything about indirect implications of the spell; indeed, the uses your limitations are looking at are all direct applications. Therefore their limitations are trivial as far as indirect uses are concerned since there's nothing stating "if an item you create can generate similar effects, it's subjected to these same limitations...".

Another reason that the limitations cannot be stacked as you're doing is it would completely wreck the "duplicate a spell"-portition of the effect, as many Wizard-spells are also Cleric-spells of higher level; if your reading were correct, replicating any of those spells would lead to a similar "greater effect"-check ending in "GG" for the caster, which I'm sure we can agree is not the intent of the authors.


That said, if you still stick to your interpretion, there's little point to this discussion as we'd go nowhere. I'll just say that it's weird how nobody else reads the spell the same way you do. But I digress; if that's how you believe the rules work, then so be it.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 09:55 AM
Greater than these, so if it's greater than all of them, then the check is warranted. It falls under one, hence the check is not warranted. This falls under one. No check.


That doesn't really make sense. But I am in no mood to explain the finer points of english grammar.










"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

It is irrelevant by RAW how those effects are being produced, merely whether or not they are in fact being produced. That's all a DM need concern himself with. The DM doesn't care about whether you're wishing to duplicate the effects of "true resurrection", or whether you're wishing for a rod of true resurrection. In both cases, he can simply say, "They are trying to produce a greater effect" and nix the wish.

It's actually a fairly well-written spell since it leaves it up to the DM to impose a check on the wish to make sure it's not broken. :smalltongue:

I have to run! It's been fun...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is pretty much what we already did.

NecroRebel
2009-03-17, 10:55 AM
Look, what you're arguing is that if an effect is greater than any one of those Wish can provide, it falls under the greater effects clause. However, if we extend this logic, we get things that are fairly clearly not intended, so we can safely say that that assumption is flawed.

To wit:
Disintigrate is a level 6 Wizard/Sorceror spell and thus well within Wish's capabilities to duplicate normally by the first clause. However, it is a level 7 Destruction domain spell, and thus not within Wish's capabilities to duplicate normally by the second clause. By your logic, Wish could not duplicate Disintigrate without added DM fiat penalties. This does not appear to be what was intended, therefore your logic is flawed.

Similarly:
A Candle of Invocation is a magic item and thus well within Wish's capabilities to duplicate normally by the seventh clause. However, it also casts a level 9 Wizard/Sorceror spell and thus not within Wish's capabilities to duplicate normally by the first clause. By your logic, Wish could not duplicate a Candle of Invocation without added DM fiat penalties. This does not appear to be what was intended, therefore your logic is flawed.

You'll note that I used the exact same wording and justification for both arguments. This was intentional. You cannot say that Wish can duplicate Disintigrate and not a Candle of Invocation. If you claim that you cannot in fact duplicate Disintigrate, you can say the same of the Candle, but I would expect most readers would find your argument lacking.

Kylarra
2009-03-17, 11:09 AM
Wish is pretty much entirely DM fiat territory anyway and the first time you wish for more CoIs/RoTWs, of course the DM is going to stop you, but by RAW (who plays strictly by RAW anyway? :smalleek:), the trick works because wotc designers didn't specify a limit on what magic items could be created.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 11:10 AM
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"


This necessitates a DM check. Let's do this check for disintegrate.

Assuming, disintegrate is not from a prohibited school:

"Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you."


Check. Disintegrate duplicates a wizard or sorceror spell of 8th level or lower.


"Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you."

Check. Since disintegrate falls within the category of a wizard/sorceror spell of 8th level or lower, it does not fit the definition of "any other spell".

Ergo, you can wish for disintegrate.


Conversely, you could also say that since the relevant clause necessitates a DM check, then it's left up to his judgement. Though in this case, there's no contradiction and thus no need for that.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 11:22 AM
"Create a magic item, or add to the powers of a magic item."

Check.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 11:27 AM
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "


As long as it produces one single effect that is greater than one on the list and not specifically allowed for, it's dangerous. Creation = general rule. Restrictions on what levels of spells can be duplicated = specific rule. Specific trumps general. Therefore...dangerous.

Anyhoo now that I'm squeaky clean from my shower...off to uni =D


Edit: You don't seem to understand the DM check. The DM is not looking to for positive reinforcement. The DM is looking to see if it's producing an effect that's greater...in short, he's looking for violations. One violation...and you're doomed.

NecroRebel
2009-03-17, 11:29 AM
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"


This necessitates a DM check. Let's do this check for Candle of Invocation.

Assuming, Candle of Invocation is a magic item:

"Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."


Check. Candle of Invocation is a magic item.


"Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

Check. Since Candle of Invocation falls within the category of a magic item, it does not fit the definition of "any other spell".

Ergo, you can wish for Candle of Invocation.


Conversely, you could also say that since the relevant clause necessitates a DM check, then it's left up to his judgement. Though in this case, there's no contradiction and thus no need for that.

My changes are in bold. If your argument is valid, which I would say that it is, my argument is valid. Admittedly, the changes don't fit this exactly, but reference my prior argument: if you claim Disintigrate is within Wish's capabilities, so is the Candle. Of course, you didn't address this point - at all - so maybe you were accepting my argument?

In essence, by saying that one fits the possible effects of Wish and the other doesn't, despite the fact that both fit into a description of things that Wish can do, you're invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. That is, you're indirectly claiming that, because a DM can fix something, it is not broken. Once again, I claim that while you can indeed say that, most readers will find your argument sorely lacking.

Edit:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "


As long as it produces one single effect that is greater than one on the list and not specifically allowed for, it's dangerous. Creation = general rule. Restrictions on what levels of spells can be duplicated = specific rule. Specific trumps general. Therefore...dangerous.

Anyhoo now that I'm squeaky clean from my shower...off to uni =D

Disintigrate produces a single effect that is greater than one on the list. Namely, the casting of a 7th-level non-Sorceror/Wizard spell. So, Disintigrate is DM fiat-worthy by your logic.

Item creation is just as specific as what level spells can be duplicated. You can't have it both ways.

EditEdit:

Edit: You don't seem to understand the DM check. The DM is not looking to for positive reinforcement. The DM is looking to see if it's producing an effect that's greater...in short, he's looking for violations. One violation...and you're doomed.

You're looking for violations. I've given you a violation in Disintigrate. So, why are you arguing that Disintigrate, despite the fact that it has a violation built-in, isn't as dooming as the Candle?

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 11:36 AM
You seem to be misusing the word "specific".

Any given effect is a "specific" effect, independent of each other. Magic item creation is no more general than duplicating a spell.

Duplicating Disintegrate fits in with the first effect, but fails to meet the requirements of the second effect because Disintegrate is a 7th level spell on Destruction domain list, which is not Wizard / Sorcerer spell list. You can duplicate spells not on the Wizard / Sorcerer spell list only if they are 6th level spells at most. That's why NecroRebel says your argument is wrong. Either it requires only one condition, or it requires them all. Any other interpretation is just that - an interpretation, not RAW.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 11:38 AM
My changes are in bold. If your argument is valid, which I would say that it is, my argument is valid. Admittedly, the changes don't fit this exactly, but reference my prior argument: if you claim Disintigrate is within Wish's capabilities, so is the Candle. Of course, you didn't address this point - at all - so maybe you were accepting my argument?

In essence, by saying that one fits the possible effects of Wish and the other doesn't, despite the fact that both fit into a description of things that Wish can do, you're invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. That is, you're indirectly claiming that, because a DM can fix something, it is not broken. Once again, I claim that while you can indeed say that, most readers will find your argument sorely lacking.

Edit:


Disintigrate produces a single effect that is greater than one on the list. Namely, the casting of a 7th-level non-Sorceror/Wizard spell. So, Disintigrate is DM fiat-worthy by your logic.

Item creation is just as specific as what level spells can be duplicated. You can't have it both ways.



This is the DMs checklist:

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
* Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
* Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
* Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
* Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
* Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
* Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.



Here are the DMs guidelines:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

This necessitates a DM check to see if the PC are trying to use a wish to produce (directly or indirectly...it doesn't specify...which neuters abusive PCs who try to get around the direct route) greater effects than these.


The DM looks at #1 on the checklist. The DM determines that the PCs are trying to use a wish to produce the effect of being able to cast a gate spell. Gate is a 9th level spell. The DM nixes the wish (e.g. gives them a candle of invocation without the ability to cast gate).


The other rules aren't applicable except the Magical Item Creation.

The DM says yes...this is consistent with magical item creation. However, in the face of the specific restriction on spell levels, the general rule about magical item creation is irrelevant. The PCs have failed the first item on the checklist. The specific overrides the general. They are trying to create an effect that is greater than one of those listed. Therefore the spell is dangerous.


I'm in a rush, so don't quote me on the wording, but that's the general idea.



Your problem is you're looking at it from a PCs mindset. The PC doesn't think that they're producing the effect of a 9th level spell. They think they're making a magical item. The DM however has to consider all possibilities and look at every guidelines to see how the PCs wish stacks up with each and every one.

Os1ris09
2009-03-17, 11:40 AM
Okay guys can we please get back to the actual topic. I am all for a discussion on certain things as RAW but does anyone know of some 4 lvl spells for a cleric that is a half elf N/CN that allows no save or save or die. Also any really good buff spells of this level would be appreciated to. Thanks guys for all the help. Also if you wouldn't mind can you please list the book said spells are in thanks.

Theodoriph
2009-03-17, 11:49 AM
Duplicating Disintegrate fits in with the first effect, but fails to meet the requirements of the second effect because Disintegrate is a 7th level spell on Destruction domain list, which is not Wizard / Sorcerer spell list.


Wrong. As I alreayd said, the Cleric spell disintegrate does not fall under the second rule because it's a Wizard/Sorceror spell of 8th level or lower. Thus it doesn't fall under "any other spell" requirement.

"Duplicate any wizard/sorceror spell of 8th level or lower"
"Duplicate any other spell"

Logic on:

If a spell falls under the category of wizard/sorceror spell of 8th level or lower, it does not fall under the category of "any other spell".
Disintegrate is a Wizard/Sorceror 6 Destruction 7 spell.
Therefore it falls under the category of wizard/sorceror 8th or lower
Therefore it does not fall under the category of "any other spell"
Therefore it is congruent with guideline 2.

The only time you invoke guideline 2, is when a spell is basically exclusive to other classes (e.g. Bards, Rangers, Druids, Clerics). If it has the Wiz/Sorc modifier, than you use guideline 1.




Edit: You're wrong necro. Your mistaken assumption is that disintegrate is two different spells. It's not. It's only one spell. It happens to be a sorc/wiz 6 destruction 7 spell. One spell. Not two. As per the guidelines, disintegrate falls under guideline 1. Since it falls under guideline 1 it does not fall under guideline 2 because it does not constitute "any other spell" (e.g. any spell that is not sorc/wiz). The fact that disintegrate can be cast as a 7th level spell by clerics of the destruction domain is irrelevant because it is sorc/wiz. That is the determining factor according to the guidelines. That is why it falls under the sorc/wiz guideline and not the "any other" guideline. One spell...not two. I checked my PHB where they give the full descriptions of the spells in the book...they only have the description listed once as a sorc/wiz 6 destruction 7 spell. Once...not twice.

Even if they were two different spells, then your scenario would still be wrong. If there were two separate spells, obviously you'd need to specify which one you were wishing for...or let the DM decide :smalltongue: You're trying to have your cake and eat it too...claiming it's two spells and at the same time one spell. And that logically...doesn't make sense in this context.


In any event, the OP is right. I apologize for sidetracking your thread...it wasn't my intent. I just found the discussion fascinating...and didn't realize how much space we were taking up arguing about something no sane DM would let you do in any event (whether it's within the rules or not) =D

I'll not sidetrack any further. Sorry again.

Kylarra
2009-03-17, 12:08 PM
Here are the DMs guidelines:

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

This necessitates a DM check to see if the PC are trying to use a wish to produce (directly or indirectly...it doesn't specify...which neuters abusive PCs who try to get around the direct route) greater effects than these.
You're confusing RAW with RAI.

RAW - You can wish for any magic item. Period. As written, there are no guidelines for what magic items can be wished for. Obviously no sane DM would allow you to do those things, but in RAW discussions, generally that fact is not applicable.

RAI may well be justified in checking to see if we're circumnavigating the restrictions of the other possible effects of wish via the magic item clause, but by RAW, such restrictions are not there.

NecroRebel
2009-03-17, 12:08 PM
Wrong. As I alreayd said, the Cleric spell disintegrate does not fall under the second rule because it's a Wizard/Sorceror spell of 8th level or lower. Thus it doesn't fall under "any other spell" requirement.

But it clearly does fall under the "any other spell" requirement, because it is a non-Wizard/Sorceror spell. You cannot just ignore that fact.

You're saying that because something, duplicating a Wizard/Sorceror spell of below 8th level, is explicitly allowed, it is allowed. I'm saying that because something, creating a magic item, is explicitly allowed, it is allowed.

Then you go on to say that because something, emulating a level 9 Wizard/Sorceror spell, is above the possible abilities of the spell, it is not allowed. I then go on to say that because something, emulating a level 7 non-Wizard/Sorceror spell, is above the possible ablities of the spell, it is not allowed.


Logic on:

If a spell falls under the category of wizard/sorceror spell of 8th level or lower, it does not fall under the category of "any other spell".
Disintegrate is a Wizard/Sorceror 6 Destruction 7 spell.
Therefore it falls under the category of wizard/sorceror 8th or lower
Therefore it does not fall under the category of "any other spell"
Therefore it is congruent with guideline 2.

If a spell does not fall under the category of any non-wizard/sorceror spell of 6th level or lower, it is not among the things allowed for Wish.
Disintigrate is a Destruction 7 spell.
Therefore it does not fall under the category of any non-wizard/sorceror spell of 6th level or lower.
Therefore, it is not among the things allowed for Wish.



Once again, I assert that you cannot have it both ways. Either something must fall under all clauses of Wish to be allowed - in which case Disintigrate isn't - or it must fall under one clause of Wish to be allowed - in which case the Candle is.




And I too apologize for this derailing of your thread, Osiris. I guess I'm getting caught up in the trap of facing someone who is wrong on the Internet (http://xkcd.com/386/) :smallbiggrin:

Leon
2009-03-17, 12:38 PM
A Large Block of Cheddar will suit you well

Os1ris09
2009-03-17, 05:39 PM
A Large Block of Cheddar will suit you well

So besides the cheese and Leon do not encourage them please:smallsmile: does anyone know of any good 4th lvl spells that a N/CN cleric can cast and buff her party/herself or any good spells in general. Thanks guys and can some one please help me find that persistent spell feat. Thanks guys:smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-18, 08:20 PM
As a GM, here is what I do to circumvent this argument, which is a house-rule, or alternately, a house-clarification.

By the RAW, you could wish for a 9th level scroll. You're not wishing for a spell, you are wishing for a scroll containing that spell. Should this be perverted?

By the RAW, you could wish for a magic item. Could you wish for an item which duplicates a 9th level spell? How about wishing for a Ring of Three Wishes, and skip candles entirely.

My solution is simple: Any item created by means of a Wish that attempts to reproduce the effect of a 9th level spell has the perversion clause applied to that attempt. Furthermore, I reinstate the clause which is in the PhB concerning the price cap of 50k before the perversion clause hits.

Therefore, in my game, you could Wish for a Candle of Invocation. However, if you use that Candle of Invocation to attempt to Gate in something, the Perversion Clause applies to that attempt. However, if you simply use it to increase the cleric's caster level while he was meditating, then nothing goes wrong.

Attempting to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes will definitely result in perversion because its cost is over 50k. Furthermore, assuming you didn't simply end up with a Ring that was empty, or otherwise was able to actually use one or more of the wishes within the ring, then each of those wishes would be likewise be automatically perverted, because you are triggering the 'cannot reproduce the effects of a 9th level spell' clause and my homebrew clarification.


So besides the cheese and Leon do not encourage them please:smallsmile: does anyone know of any good 4th lvl spells that a N/CN cleric can cast and buff her party/herself or any good spells in general. Thanks guys and can some one please help me find that persistent spell feat. Thanks guys:smallbiggrin:

sure.

Persist Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell)

at 4th level, try Death Ward and Freedom of Movement. Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon are also valuable. Mass Lesser Vigor is cheesy, but legit.

Kylarra
2009-03-18, 08:27 PM
:smallconfused: No one plays strictly by RAW and we all know that no DM is going to allow you to Pun-pun. The argument was simply RAW vs RAI and you've just agreed that by RAW it works.


~~~

On topic, in terms of buffs/spells, what exactly do you want besides the standard GMV, Freedom, Death ward, Divine power etc recommendations?

Eldariel
2009-03-18, 08:39 PM
Complete Arcane has Persistent Spell. That or SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell). As far as spells go:

Party buffs:
-Magic Vestment (Chainable if you apply Reach Spell, Divine Reach or similar to it; unfortunately that pushes it to level 5... Casting one for every piece of armor is decent though)
-Greater Magic Weapon (Chainable, you need a normal Metamagic Rod for this; note that both have a sufficient duration to last all day with one casting, making them prime candidates for Beads of Karma & Ankh of Ascension-buffing; add Divine Spell Power and we can be talking +5 weapons & armor on level 8)
-Mass Lesser Vigor [SpC] (if Persisted; Fast Healing for all day means no need to heal out of combat)
-Blessed Aim [SpC] (if Persisted and the party has multiple ranged attackers)
-Freedom of Movement (has decent duration even without Persisting)
-Protection from Alignment (protects from mind-affecting regardless of alignment)
-Conviction [SpC] (1st level 10 min/level spell for high morale-bonus to saves, it's very handy)
-Shield Other [PHB] (very handy for ranged Clerics that don't expect to take much damage otherwise; also hours/level and provides a Deflection-bonus)
-Divine Insight [SpC] (never fail skill checks again)
-Close Wounds [SpC] (small buffer before death)
-Mass Conviction [SpC] (as the name suggests)
-Recitation [SpC] (to be persisted, awesome buff if the party shares a deity)
-Mass Shield of Faith [SpC] (as the name suggests...)
-Delay Death [SpC] (really handy on occasions, especially with a form of Rage that allows functioning while in negatives)
-Resistance, Greater [SpC] (Resistance-bonuses never hurt and 24 hours is a good duration)

Personal buffs:
-Divine Favor (obvious)
-Divine Power (persist it if you want to fight)
-Lesser Holy Transformation [SpC] (nice combat improvement)
-Lesser Visage of the Deity [SpC] (the same)
-Sanctuary (handy defense)
-Air Walk (lasts a while, great ability)

Offense:
-Cause Fear (handy vs. low HD opponents; generally not anymore)
-Command (see above)
-Darkbolt [LoM] (damage + save-or-lose-a-turn; annoyingly Evil)
-Shatter (breaks non-magical stuff really easily, can be very handy)
-Spiritual Weapon (can be occasionally handy)

And so on... Basically, things that force a save or bad stuff happens are a Cleric's offensive bread'n'butter combined with just laying the smackdown.