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The Glyphstone
2009-03-15, 09:28 PM
While working on my homebrew game setting (self-plug interjection: races currently looking for critique in Homebrew), I decided that one of my human cultures, in addition to be vaguely egyptian/arabesque in imagery, will have a strong undead presence. Specifically, I want to try and integrate the dead into their culture and society as much as I can. Note that this setting will assume nothing evil about animated the dead or negative energy in general.
-Rich merchants might pay the fees to have themselves mummified and reanimated after death to keep running their businesses.
-Poor people can effectively take out a loan with their corpses as collateral, getting paid now by a 'body broker' who collects their body after death and animates it as a skeleton/zombie for labor.
-Skeletons and zombies, as mentioned, make excellent grunt laborers on farms and such, particularly in a semi-desert climate like the one it'll likely be set in.

But of course, I'm smart enough to recognize that there will be effects bigger than what I can see immediately - how would the existence of undead, both mindless and intelligent, alter or effect a society? What would be the results of a family whose primary breadwinner dies in an accident being able to sell his corpse to be zombified for survival while they hunt a new source of income?

Thane of Fife
2009-03-15, 09:39 PM
Here's (http://www.strolen.com/content.php?node=4183) a fairly fleshed-out idea I had for a society with a heavy undead content. I think it would make for an interesting setting.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-15, 10:01 PM
There's three big fiddly bits that'll seriously change how things turn out (well, four, but the fourth is "how does society view them?")

1) What happens when a controller passes on (especially the mindless ones)? Do the controlled undead simply collapse? Do they continue at their last task? Do they go on a rampage? As most controllers will be mortal (at least to start), this will be fairly significant.

2) What happens to displaced workers? If the mindless undead population slowly (or quickly) replaces all unskilled labor, you'll get riots, revolts, and/or undead hunters as people start to recognize that walking corpses are stealing the jobs out from under them, and as a consequence, stealing the food off their tables and their roofs from over their heads.

3) What's the "control limit" for undead? I don't mean for individual casters - I mean in general (also: Do note that the Clerical version of Animate Dead technically fits all requirements for being made into a potion or oil, so potentially, anyone can control several skeletons). If you CAN'T replace a significant percentage of unskilled labor due to control issues, then the undead will not have any impact on the city beyond a showcase of wealth and affluence.

That will at least get you thinking along the right lines...

Vexxation
2009-03-15, 10:16 PM
Hm... I like the idea of a Body Broker. He's essentially a life insurance agent.

The problem with undead is that as long as they are under control, they're vastly superior to living laborers. Heck, Wights are even better than most soldiers; not many soldiers can muster their own army after a couple days.

Therein lies the problem: What to do with the now-useless laborers. My suggestion is to have the local or royal government set up an Official Ministry of the Post-Mortem. The officials would regulate any and all use of undead and the creation of new undead. Once that was established, begin building undead-worked farms to stockpile a huge surplus of food. Once enough food has been generated that the entire kingdom's labor force can be sustained, start handing out food-coupons. Everyone has food now.

And, handily, everyone is free from farm labor.

What now? The churches grow immensely in power as people study religion and become increasingly pious. Clerics are common. Paladins are trained to hunt out-of-control undead. The Arts and Sciences explode in creative energy as a new generation is born and raised never having to do physical labor. Magical study increases greatly. Further improvements to society are made, such as Tippy-esque traps that render undead obsolete.

...Utopia.

The Glyphstone
2009-03-15, 10:34 PM
The other mechanics of the setting will keep Tippyverse from evolving, though that's not really the topic at hand - I'm putting some hard cuts in on the power of magic in general and its accessibility, and the 'churches', so much as this setting has gods, are still being hammered out in how much influence they have on the world.

The one thing that everyone has in common is the effect it'll have on what 'living' unskilled labor will do when displaced - definitely something to think about.
Control is the easiest problem to fix, just by modifying the means of controlling raised undead; they could be set to obey the orders of another person, similar to how golems and spells like Mount work, or maybe tied to the use of a particular keystone-like item. Tying their orders to the bearer of an object also neatly solves the limit of undead per person, and comes with its own built-in plot hook (NPC: Gold Reward Offer for the return of Skeleton Controlling Stone, prompt retrieval necessary for impending harvest season!). Keeping a 4HD of undead per HD of the "controller" would be the simplest option - a large farm operation might have a staff of overseers, each given charge of one control stone and its accompanying zombie barbershop quartet.

Mass unlimited undead making would indeed destroy the existence of the subsistence underclass, so that needs to be addressed. Maybe there's a limit to how many undead can be placed in a single area before they start to have detrimental effects on the surrounding terrain, requiring larger farms to supplement their workforce with dead instead of replacing it.

derfenrirwolv
2009-03-15, 10:38 PM
Off the top of my head..

Most importantly i think the society would be stratified. Imagine antebellum plantation systems, only worse, with completely unpaid undead slaves and insanely rich immortal owners. You'd have a VERY rich upper class that just keeps on accumulating wealth, and a very poor lower class that can't get anywhere. I'm picturing massive unemployment because peasant workers (who cost money, get sick, and have to rest and eat) are simply not worth the investment. Expect crowded slums and a lot of disgruntled people in poverty.

The society would tend to stagnate and be a little old fashioned. A lot of new ideas get passed around, not because people become convinced of better new ideas, but because people who held worse old ideas die off. If the people in power (the ones who can afford to be turned into free willed undead) don't die off, their views, prejudices and attitudes will trickle into or be written into the government policy of the rest of society. This could lead to a situation similar to modern Iran, where something like rock music is hated by the ruling class, but the general public actually likes it.

Religion would either be subverted to the worship of the undead themselves or eliminated. There's no way the powers that be would let an organized church that offers clerical powers (like turn undead or control undead) spring up to threaten their power.

No society exists in a vacuum. What do their neighbors think of the practice? Are they trying to copy it, or are they getting ready to launch a crusade against the unholy abominations?

I'd expect the price of material components for raising the undead to increase, and massive (undead) mining crews to be in effect, with fierce competition to control said mines. He who controls the gems, controls the undead, and controls the money, and the power...

Graymayre
2009-03-15, 10:47 PM
The Eberron setting has two nations which utilize the undead. You should read up about them, as they will give a good view of the reprecussions of common undeath in society, as well as how other nations would react to their use.

Here they are, but you'll need to look up the relevant info:

The human nation of Karnath uses undead as military units. It is considered prestigious to serve the military in death. I don't think I've seen them used as labor, but it wouldn't be far-fetched during war.

Then there are the Arenal Elves. They founded a ritual that preserves a soul in its body after death. Elves that have gone through the ritual are treated with more respect than those that are still alive. Their nation is fanatically devoited to all things death (though they themselves are not an evil nation).

JoshuaZ
2009-03-15, 10:49 PM
Another issue is that religious concerns will be very different than they are normally. People who can see their loved ones who have died all the time won't see death as a big a deal. I suspect that the various deities will have a lot more trouble getting worshippers. Some religions might respond by taking reactionary views against undeath even when their doctrines wouldn't normally require it.

VirOath
2009-03-15, 10:51 PM
Hrm, people being brought back from the dead as themselves would have problems. Did they have more or fewer rights? Are there restrictions on how they can be treated?

And how does this affect the inherited areas of the economy. Not only businesses being passed to new owners, but also the effect of wealth trickling down through a family. Are there ways to prevent a "Re-Living" business owner from dominating an industry and literally strangling others out of it? What about mastermind criminals brought to "Reliving" illegally, is it increasing the strength of crime?

Can a Reliving be a cleric or a paladin?

And about the mindless, how are they viewed? They are a cheap source of labor, but are they used as general labor or just as slave labor used for jobs often to dangerous for normal people to willingly do? Is it regulated? How do people keep track of legal undead? How do they deal with Graverobbers/Corpsehunters and the smuggled undead they bring?

Do they still respect the person that just wants to be left dead when he dies, or does the society as a whole see letting the dead rot as a waste of a resource?

Are there small groups that oppose the way undead are used in this society? Are they seeking to improve the respect given to them? Or are they trying to abolish the use of the Undead completely? How would having the undead stripped from this society affect it?

Fishy
2009-03-15, 11:43 PM
Just off the top of my head.

Option 1: The Working StiffsAssumptions: two types of undead; intelligent and mindless. Keeping someone's mind and memories intact is possible, but difficult/expensive. Intelligent undead count, legally and culturally, as 'people', zombies count as 'things'. People don't want to die.

Every day, the boss looks out at his employees, and thinks, "Which of those people would be worth more to me dead?"

It may not be legal to just stab them and animate their corpse, and there will be barriers to just replacing living workers with zombies, but there's going to be a lot of pressure on anyone who wants to stay alive to pick up a skill that can't be replaced by a zombie.

Some of them aren't going to make it, and will end up broke and in the slums, where the murder rate is going to be alarmingly high.

On the top, there's going to be a 'bone ceiling' of nobility and wizardry and scientists and CEOs who are never, ever going to go away. Plenty of them are going to own zombies, and they'll do everything in their power to make things easier for themselves.

Basically, sucks to be middle-class and human. Necromancy isn't 'evil', but it does lower the value of human life, and that brings out the worst in people. What's to stop a 'body broker' from just stabbing the guy the moment he walks out the door?

Option 2: Zombies Are People Too

Think for a minute about all of the real-world traditions surrounding the dead: Headstones, visits, offerings, ceremonies, the works. The key to the whole thing is the cultural idea that, even though they're dead, they still have some sort of personhood and still deserve respect.

What if zombification were like that? When grandma dies, instead of getting buried, she gets animated- so that she can stay on as part of the family. Zombies get 'invited' to family gatherings. They have their own rooms, they have their own clothes and jewelry. They don't get used for labor- would you ask your grandmother to plow the fields in a 24 hour shift when she was alive? Maybe they 'help out around the house', or do (an approximation of) something that they enjoyed doing in life, but anything more would be disrespectful.

Ownership becomes a tricky thing. Maybe it's strictly a family affair: If you die alone and unloved, you get cremated and that's it. Maybe the government does 'state animations' for war heroes and great leaders, but that's it.

For some reason, I'm seeing big family estates, where you don't move out, so much as get your own room. People care more about tradition and their ancestors, if only because they see them every day. (What is the name of *your* great-great-great-great-grandfather?)

Obviously, all of the nearby civilizations find them creepy as hell.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-16, 02:13 AM
I was going to say that I'd expect a lot of middle class people due to the unskilled/menial jobs being handled by undead, but I'm inclined to agree with Fishy on the issue now that I've read his post.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 02:27 AM
So... basically you have made Undead into Robots. All standard robot tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotRollCall) apply; the short fiction of Isaac Asimov will say a lot actually.

Unique differences:
- Labor "pool"
Where are we getting all these corpses from? Sure, the graveyards may be good, but with this much "free labor" society is going to expand at a tremendous rate. Will the rich just start killing off the underclass to get more skeletal servants? Launch wars to raid graveyards?

- Succession
Like other rejuvenation fiction (see Elizabeth Moon's Familias Regnant Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familias_Regnant_universe) for examples) a wealthy overclass that can live forever, perfectly functionally, is going to choke up a lot of the wealth and power available in society - and they're not going to want competitors.

What do the ambitious youth do? They will be easily crushed by their Undead Overlords if they try a revolt or even to launch a competing business; perhaps there will be a strong market in Undead Hunters to allow for succession.

How do families survive? Will the Undead even care about their mortal descendants? Heck, they're more likely to be a threat than asset - best to kill 'em all, maybe raise some of them as subservient undead.

I wouldn't worry too much about the underclass though; with tireless free labor there is no reason to have anyone earn money through brute labor alone. Far easier to just keep expanding farmland and infrastructure to raise everyone's level of satisfaction than to keep oppressing them until they revolt.

Or just loose a few ghouls into the ghettos and be done with it. What need do the Dead have for the Living?

potatocubed
2009-03-16, 02:51 AM
Just a couple of thoughts:

1. Funerary practices will be very different. I imagine anyone who hasn't specifically made arrangements for coming back undead may well opt for cremation - the last thing you want is for your body (or soul, or both) to be put to work as a tireless undead without you getting anything out of it.

2. Disease. As useful as they are, zombies are still rotting corpses. They are home to bacteria, maggots, flies, and who knows what else in terms of D&D-esque magical parasites. (Rot grubs, anyone?) Other forms of undead have less issue with this but it's still something to consider. A widespread use of zombies is going to lead to serious plague problems.

Similarly, a lot of undead - mummies, for example - have powers that they have no control over. A mummified merchant isn't going to be very successful if he has to wait 1d4+1 rounds for all his customers to get over his paralysing fear aura, then gives them mummy rot when they shake hands on the deal.

3. The secret police have a very effective tool in ghosts and other intelligent incorporeal undead. Even with just one or two on the payroll (probably handled by giving benefits to their families) no one can ever be certain that they are alone again. Walls can't keep them out, although holy places might. Most people can't fight them although they can certainly hurt you.

A state might choose not to make use of a secret police like this, but then again... why not? The tools are there. With the right necromancy and the right leverage you don't need to worry about the ghosts going bad. If the government isn't making use of these literal spooks (:smalltongue:) then you can bet that someone else is.

4. These people will have the best history record in the known world, because there will be intelligent, immortal undead who were actually there and can tell you how it happened.

Talic
2009-03-16, 04:54 AM
Displaced Workers? Blah, not as big an issue as you'd think.

1) Undead are a refined resource. The raw materials are bodies.

This means that in a pragmatic society, we'd want to have as many breeders as possible, to increase raw materials. This introduces incentive programs, much like several oil-rich regions of the real world that pay annual royalties to their residents. All people are a future resource (think: Planting trees), so we want more!

2) Harvesting. Obviously, if you can no longer breed, the above no longer applies. So in the less ethical societies, 20 years after your last child is born, or on your 60th birthday? If you aren't controlling undead, you now have the potential to become one.

Now, you have a society where you have magically inclined elite, controlling undead for wars, public works, and the like... and you have peasantry, living a life of relative comfort. Entertainment keeps citizens from being bored (bored groups are dangerous), and the majority of the nation become... Cattle. Extremely high standards of living, with the harshest crimes/punishments going to those who damage bodies (living or dead), and those who fail to procreate by certain ages.

Welcome to Utopia... Such as it is. Add in programs to locate and train those with arcane talents, and add in religious tones, to encourage the wise to elevate their status through clerical training (magic limitation is as simple as increasing the rarity of those with high mental attributes, or the inefficiency in finding / training them)... And you're set.

Charity
2009-03-16, 05:40 AM
Record sales of air freshener.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-16, 07:14 AM
Therein lies the problem: What to do with the now-useless laborers. My suggestion is to have the local or royal government set up an Official Ministry of the Post-Mortem. The officials would regulate any and all use of undead and the creation of new undead. Once that was established, begin building undead-worked farms to stockpile a huge surplus of food. Once enough food has been generated that the entire kingdom's labor force can be sustained, start handing out food-coupons. Everyone has food now.

And, handily, everyone is free from farm labor.

What now? The churches grow immensely in power as people study religion and become increasingly pious. Clerics are common. Paladins are trained to hunt out-of-control undead. The Arts and Sciences explode in creative energy as a new generation is born and raised never having to do physical labor. Magical study increases greatly. Further improvements to society are made, such as Tippy-esque traps that render undead obsolete.

...Utopia.
Catch: This will only happen if those in power knowingly expend the resources to make it happen, when those spent resources don't buy those in power much for a long time - and there's not particularly much pressure to get them thinking along those lines.

Consider:
As a member of the upper crust, managing an undead farm - currently, you're growing crops for people who can't really pay you for them. Many of these people have no skills. What benefit is it, to you, to feed them? Sure, long-term, getting them trained in a skilled task that you can't set skeletons doing will make things better for society as a whole... but then they might find a way to start competing with you, and it'll be years before they could even start paying you back.

Sure, there will be some who take the benevolent route - and very quickly they'll be impacted with the why of the above when their competitors who do not do this take over all the paying business. This effect will tend towards weeding out anyone who gives away the grown food (unless it's viewed as a "breeding program" for corpses to animate, of course - but that goes down a VERY dark path).

Now, if there's just one person who's ultimately in charge of the food (and nobody else is permitted to grow/sell any) this doesn't apply. The place will pretty much end up looking like that one person's whims make it look - and that's not particularly predictable.

MickJay
2009-03-16, 08:12 AM
Regardless of everything else, that's a huge amount of negative energy walking around; would it be treated as "pollution"? Would the undead be limited to places where there are few or no people?

Economy would crash; even though the prices of goods would fall dramatically, most people wouldn't be able to afford them, since they wouldn't have any money (or their products would also be worth very little). Basically, you have a huge number of non-consuming producers; those who can consume, can no longer afford to do so; you get warehouses full of stuff only the rich can afford, and they simply don't need that much. Sure, the owners of the undead may choose to distribute the goods for free, but why would they want to do so? They would end up destroying their own undead to put back some life in the economy (unless the common folk destroyed the undead first).

Even if the undead were used on a smaller scale, the problem would still be present. To a certain degree, undeadisation of labor would benefit everyone, but the society would have to transform significantly to accommodate the changes; widespread education, services, entertainment would be necessary to keep people busy and to give them something to do as the undead kept doing the menial tasks. I agree that replacing the "undead" with "robots" would work very well.

Fishy
2009-03-16, 08:24 AM
Hang on.

Free-market competition and capitalism are basically out.

There's an upper class that naturally accumulates power.

Farming and unskilled labor lose their value as commodities, and have to be controlled from above by edicts and quotas.

There's the best secret police ever.

... Undead Soviet-Style Communism?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-16, 08:57 AM
I think people in this thread are looking too short-term. From what I can tell of the OP, this society has been using undead for farming for hundreds of years. Meaning a lot of the issues for the displaced lower-class workers have been solved. By this point, anyone who couldn't find a job now that Skele's are farming has either moved, gotten job training, or died and joined the workforce. This society would look utopian because it is close to Utopia. The middle and upper classes are all that remain, food is cheap and plentiful, and many people can afford servants. There are no almost no life-brokers within the borders, because most people elect either to return as intelligent undead. Rather, the brokers are importing bodies of the lower class from other countries.

Now, on to the downsides. Intelligent Undead being common means that most people literally can't inherit. So either you sponge off of relatives for the rest of eternity, or you emmigrate to another country, and settle for a "normal" lifespan. Constant emmigration of underprivlaged people means that other countries probably dislike this one(think Mexico), though it has both a strong military and cheap exported food, so no one can afford to anger it. Not to mention the fact that most religions hate it...yeah, it probably has a very strong military, especially since it has so many uninheriting sons. I'd actually make it belligerent and aggressive, just because it can afford to be.

My 2 cp.

newbDM
2009-03-16, 09:30 AM
2. Disease. As useful as they are, zombies are still rotting corpses. They are home to bacteria, maggots, flies, and who knows what else in terms of D&D-esque magical parasites. (Rot grubs, anyone?) Other forms of undead have less issue with this but it's still something to consider. A widespread use of zombies is going to lead to serious plague problems.

I was thinking the same thing.

However, there is an oil/substance in the DMG which is only 2,000gp, and functions as a permanent Gentle Repose spell on dead organic matter (such as leather, or corpses). One vial does around fourteen medium sized bodies I believe, so if it is brewed in mass production the individual price can go even lower.



In my homebrewed world I also have a society which is big into undead, so I am getting a lot of good information here. But in my case, this societal feature is relatively new, and began as an act of desperation.

One thing I wrote into their fluff is a "child quota". Sort of like how China IRl has a only one child policy, they have a minimum of three children policy, or they are not allowed to be turned into deathless/undead. I figured this would be an important issue in such a society, because if everyone rushed to become ageless, then eventually there would be a point where no new children are born. When that happens, it is only a matter of time before either a natural disaster, or war dwindles their population down permanently. A good comparison would be the situation in the original Ghost In the Shell anime movie (have never seen the alternate universe series, so can not comment there), since about 90-something% of the human race is at least partly cyborg now, with more and more people becoming 100% machine to live forever every day.


Another important issue I addressed with my undead oriented city state is the fact that nobody wants to be a maggot-ridden pile of smelly rotting flesh for eternity, even if it means living forever. Not to mention the problem it would cause with foreign negotiations. To address that, I decided to use the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortes for the intelligent undead/citizens. The Necropolitan template does not mention their physical appearance, so I made it that they retain their physical beauty, their ability to enjoy things such as tasty food, and their flesh continues to regenerate, though their skin feels like cold velvet, and they have a very pale look to them. Think vampire style undead, rather then rotting zombie style undead.


I also made it so that rather you animated as a negative energy undead, or positive energy deathless depended solely on your alignment during life.

JeminiZero
2009-03-16, 10:21 AM
As I see it, undead labor is not all its cut out to be.

Firstly, the bulk of the readily available undead (skellies and zombies) aren't exactly the brightest servants. There are many simple things that are beyond their ability to grasp. Its one thing to ask them to strike a cave wall with a pick, or to bring the mine trailings to the refinement furnace. Its quite another to get them to autonomously stop mining when the cave wall is clearly becoming unstable. Or to stop shovelling the furnace when it gets too full.

Similiarly, you can tell them to go kill bugs among your crops. But getting them NOT to hurt your crops while doing so, may be just a tad beyond their mental capacity. What they might excel at, is tirelessly powering a pump to draw water from wells to irrigate your crops. But you might still want a couple of commoners to check and tend your crops.

And the list goes on (also refer to the sorcerer's apprentice vs broomstick army). Mindless undead may not be the magic bullet that can take care of all menial labour.

Secondly, mindless undead are not entirely free. Remember that they do not heal naturally, so if and when they sustain damage, you need the services of a spellcaster of some sort to patch them up, so that they don't eventually get destroyed from the wear and tear.

How might they get injured? Well, they're mindless. They have no concept of danger. If you ask a skeleton to walk off a cliff, it will do so. In this instance, Jobs which might be too dangerous for a mindless drone might also be economically unfeasible- it might be cheaper over time to hire commoners to do the work instead.

In such circumstances, the lower classes can continue to eke out an existence.

bosssmiley
2009-03-16, 10:22 AM
Three words: perpetual motion engines.

And, as Fishy says, an undead society would likely form an almost completely stable totalitarian oligarchic system. The unintelligent undead form the proletariat (free precisely because they have no consciousness), the living form the lower ranks of the Outer Party (who claw, fight and snitch on one another for the privilege of rising in rank enough to be rewarded with undeath), and the self-perpetuating undead elite of the Inner Party do exactly what they like.

You'd doubtless have vicious infighting at the top between various interest groups and cabals (over human livestock, material or thaumological resources, the best burial sites, w/e). But the lower orders would never get a chance to play with the big boys. In fact, if the elite were careful enough, the lowly might go through their whole lives without even an inkling that various seemingly random events over the years - or even socio-ideological trends over the course of decades - were the result of high caste infighting.

Remember: Big Vecna is watching you, and we have always been at war with Sarlona. :smallwink:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:34 AM
This society would look utopian because it is close to Utopia. The middle and upper classes are all that remain, food is cheap and plentiful, and many people can afford servants. There are no almost no life-brokers within the borders, because most people elect either to return as intelligent undead. Rather, the brokers are importing bodies of the lower class from other countries.

This actually requires close examination.

A lot of these answers assume that there are non-Undead about in this kingdom, even after thousands of years of rule.

Why? What use do the Dead have for the Living?

Valuable servants can be transformed into controlled undead - even intelligent controlled undead. Now you have undead overseers managing skeletal mining teams, herding squads of wights for defense, and so on. Living people just cause problems - they require food, shelter from the elements, and they get sick and weak with age.

Valentyne
2009-03-16, 10:36 AM
I am reminded of a book I read sometime back. But anyhow, the undead became a precious commodity. The society in which they came from was one on the verge of collapse. Plague and a low birthrate decimated the workforce...newborns were very rare. Simply put, without the undead to tend the crops there would be no harvest.

In a D&D world perhaps a magic curse on the kingdom?

newbDM
2009-03-16, 10:53 AM
This actually requires close examination.

A lot of these answers assume that there are non-Undead about in this kingdom, even after thousands of years of rule.

Why? What use do the Dead have for the Living?

Valuable servants can be transformed into controlled undead - even intelligent controlled undead. Now you have undead overseers managing skeletal mining teams, herding squads of wights for defense, and so on. Living people just cause problems - they require food, shelter from the elements, and they get sick and weak with age.

True, but like I said earlier you still need to keep the population going.

According to the OP's description, he is making it so the citizens become undead, and the continue to run their society. Sort of like the Eberron never dying court I believe.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-16, 10:54 AM
People have brought up very good points, and so I only have one more to throw in there (hopefully no one else mentioned this yet):

When assassinating political rivals, you'd need to make sure their body is entirely destroyed so they aren't just revived as undead. Of course, this is somewhat similar to a usual D&D society (where if you get assassinated and are rich enough, you could have just left a will that states you should be resurrected or raised from the dead).

What's the price to have one's body raised after death as an intelligent undead anyway?

Also, keep in mind that even if undead are very common, some people and religions might still be uncomfortable with them for some reason or another. Perhaps because it encourages the unnatural prolonging of the body when the mind/spirit should be released to the afterlife?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 11:02 AM
True, but like I said earlier you still need to keep the population going.

But why? You claim it is to ensure against disaster, but your analogy is inappropriate; all you need is a Lich or two with phylaetries in secure locations (say, adamantium boxes or inside Prismatic Spheres) and you can reconstitute the society even if a meteor fell on it. If they need replacement skeletons they can either breed humans as animals or capture them from neighboring kingdoms.

The Watchmen reference is apt; even non-evil intelligent undead are going to become increasingly detached from the concerns of mortals; there just isn't going to be a useful reference template. I honestly can't see a reason why the Undead would care about maintaining infrastructure to keep uncontrolled mortals in relative luxury.

newbDM
2009-03-16, 11:21 AM
But why? You claim it is to ensure against disaster, but your analogy is inappropriate; all you need is a Lich or two with phylaetries in secure locations (say, adamantium boxes or inside Prismatic Spheres) and you can reconstitute the society even if a meteor fell on it. If they need replacement skeletons they can either breed humans as animals or capture them from neighboring kingdoms.

The Watchmen reference is apt; even non-evil intelligent undead are going to become increasingly detached from the concerns of mortals; there just isn't going to be a useful reference template. I honestly can't see a reason why the Undead would care about maintaining infrastructure to keep uncontrolled mortals in relative luxury.

Hmm. I see your point. I guess that all depends on how you see their "society".

If you go by the classic Lich theme, then yes, it will eventually boil down to a handful (or less) of lone Liches remaining, and an endless horde of undead they tireless manage.

However, the way I see it, and how I believe the OP is picturing, this would still be an evolving and vibrant society. The sentient undead/deathless part of the population still interacts and coexists with the living side on a day-to-day bases. There is still art, music, fun, parties, and all the enjoyments of life. It is just that you do not go to another plane when your biological clock breaks down, but instead you spend your "afterlife" in the same country/continent you most likely spent most of your life in. There are still children running around, but instead of only getting to go to their grandparent's house, they can go visit their great-great--great-grandparents as well.

I believe people are still picturing the cliche "the undead become isolated and filled with hopelessness" default in D&D. An unnecessary association between undeath in a society and it becoming stale, dark, gloomy, and "dead". Remember, usually when some become a deathless/undead Lich in D&D, they are usually alone and isolated in their "evil" cause, and then put themselves into hiding for centuries while usually throwing themselves obsessively into their studies. Especially in an Egyptian based society, where they believe the afterlife is a mere continuation of your current life (hence why they still needed their bodies, so mummified them, and loaded their tombs with all their worldly possessions believing they would still use them in the afterlife), there would still be a reason to "live".

It would be no different than spending eternity on another plane in a standard D&D afterlife. Do you automatically end up becoming bored and detached in the Great Wheel make up of the cosmology, and where souls end up based on their alignment?

MickJay
2009-03-16, 11:32 AM
I am reminded of a book I read sometime back. But anyhow, the undead became a precious commodity. The society in which they came from was one on the verge of collapse. Plague and a low birthrate decimated the workforce...newborns were very rare. Simply put, without the undead to tend the crops there would be no harvest.

In a D&D world perhaps a magic curse on the kingdom?

In a society with lots of undead the plague would probably be the result of all the corpses shambling around, and low birthrate would naturally result from all the negative energy leaking from the undead, no extra curses needed :smallbiggrin:

Also, substance mimicking Gentle Repose costing "only" 2000gp? So, if you want to have 10 zombies ploughing your fields, you need to first cough up the money for the corpses, necromancer and 20.000gp on top of that so they wouldn't smell and spread disease? It would be cheaper to pay two dozen commoners to do the same (or more) work in the long run (since the zombies would eventually get damaged and needed "repairs" or replacement anyway). 24 commoners can easily survive, repair and replace (i.e. multiply) themselves, for a year, for much less than 2000gp.

All things considered, wouldn't producing (safely or not) undead, to do the stuff that mere peasants can, simply be uneconomical? Even without additional safeguards, producing the undead, keeping them in a working condition and supervising them would still cost a lot - and they wouldn't be able to stimulate economy in any way, except perhaps increase demand for the services of necromancers and for some specific magical products.

Aux-Ash
2009-03-16, 11:54 AM
One huge problem with a society with undead as a workforce/army would be the fact that the ones in charge would be human (more or less). One of the primary reasons the feudal nobles of the past weren't constantly fighting one another was that they needed lots of people to grow food and that people would eventually be fed up with war and revolt.

A society were the undead make up the army and workforce would not have this problem. Warlords could wage war upon one another perpetually or until the other side has been completely destroyed (and reanimiated).

Besides what would happen if one of these reanimators come to the conclusion that he has too few in his workforce? Or worse... that people dying from age actually tend to have rather poor quality bones unlike younger people.

Zaq
2009-03-16, 12:23 PM
I see some more problems to address.

Creating a skelly or zombie via the Animate Dead spell costs 25 gp in onyx and a 3rd or 4th level spell. We'll be generous and assume that whoever is in charge of creating these things is either capable of casting the spell or has someone who is willing to cast it on their behalf. A mindless undead will only be suitable for performing grunt, untrained labor. Paying a commoner to do that costs 1sp a day. That means that before a zombie can pay for itself, it has to work for 250 days... and nothing bad has to happen to it in that time, because it can't heal itself. It can't be allowed to decay into uselessness (if its arms fall off, it's not a very good laborer, now is it?). Those damned hooligans next door can't be allowed to mess it up. No horses can get spooked and trample over it (it won't know to get out of the way). Otherwise, you've lost money. That's a lot of risk on your investment.

Second, zombies (and skellies, but I'm just gonna say zombies for ease of use) aren't very good workers. Yes, they never get tired, never get hungry, never try to unionize, but they're not servants. They're closer to walking furniture. They're objects. You could have a team of them grinding away at a millstone, pushing it in a circle for hours or days, but that's about it. A zombie is utterly incapable of adapting to circumstances. If you have it plowing a field, and there's a cow in the way, you're either going to be out one zombie or out one cow, because that zombie's not going to stop. If a zombie is out gathering your corn and there's a fire in your field, the zombie's not going to try to get out of the way, nor is it going to try to put out the flames. It's just going to stay there and try to keep gathering the corn. Also, you can't give it more than one job, more than one action at a time. You can tell a commoner "pull all the weeds in the field, then bring in the horses, then spread this fertilizer." and then go on to supervise others or to do your own work. A zombie can do one of those, but then you have to tell it to stop and tell it to do something else. It can't do that on its own. Zombies thus require way more supervision and direction than commoners do. Hell, you can have a batch of commoners working for you that you don't have to actually talk to more than once a month to gather your taxes. Zombies need someone to tell them what to do every time you want them to do something. They're less intelligent than mules. They're closer to a Roomba, except a Roomba at least shuts itself off when it's done. This also means that you generally won't have them working 24 hours a day like you might expect, unless you have a job that requires exactly one action over and over all night long while the humans or other intelligent overseers are sleeping.

Also, if you're using a zombie for farm labor, you'll have some health concerns. Zombies are rotting, putrefying corpses. Do you want disease-bearing corpses gathering the food you're going to eat? I don't kid myself, farms are not exactly spotlessly clean and antiseptic locations to begin with, but at least they're not worked by decaying flesh. Even if your zombie work force is kept away from the population at large, they can still spread filth and plague this way.

Oh, and skeletons don't have this concern, but zombies are, by definition, slower than commoners, since they can only take a move or a standard action every turn. But they can work 24 hours a day if they don't need to be ordered around, so that sort of works out.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 12:37 PM
However, the way I see it, and how I believe the OP is picturing, this would still be an evolving and vibrant society. The sentient undead/deathless part of the population still interacts and coexists with the living side on a day-to-day bases. There is still art, music, fun, parties, and all the enjoyments of life. It is just that you do not go to another plane when your biological clock breaks down, but instead you spend your "afterlife" in the same country/continent you most likely spent most of your life in. There are still children running around, but instead of only getting to go to their grandparent's house, they can go visit their great-great--great-grandparents as well.

I mean, you could run a society like that, but why? What is it about undeath/immortality that makes you think that even family structure would remain the same when the people in charge no longer have an interest in having "successors?"

Here's how I see my society working out:
Early on the wealthy and the powerful begin converting to Undeath - particularly as they got older and found their bodies breaking down. Some of the new Undead then converted their families - husbands turning their wives into eternally young vampires and so on. There was some early friction among the ruling class, but by either converting their heirs into (controlled) intelligent undead or by buying them off with some new territory, this passed.

The first changes in society came as merchants traded in their porters for skeleton porters. Soon, simple tasks were taken over by the clean and tireless skeletal undead and unemployment grew. At first the rulers sought to pacify the masses with Bread and Circuses; thanks to replacing menial labor with mindless undead, the rulers became much wealthier. But, in time, this too began to break down.

A particularly unscrupulous merchant convinced his managers to accept conversion into intelligent undead (let's say Necropolitan). But, the merchant made sure to bind these managers to serve him, and him alone. Now he could make his skeleton servants do more complicated tasks like servicing trade routes, mining and agriculture. He became fantastically wealthy, and soon the other Undead Merchants followed suit. Finally the ruling class did this to their bureaucrats and government functionaries. Suddenly, the Living were no longer needed for running society.

This sparked a revolt by the underclass, but it was already too late. The nobility unleashed a few Wights and Ghouls into the city and within a week there wasn't a peasant left who wasn't undead or devoured. Ghastly, of course, but what else could they do?

This event was not without backlash. Some refugees did make it to other lands but they were scarcely believed; the few adventurers foolhardy enough to seek vengeance were easily overwhelmed by the new Ghoul/Wight army. The Vampires of the kingdom were momentarily panicked, having only their meager coteries of mortals to feed upon; a couple of raids and capturing of "barbarians" resulted in a large enough stock to maintain a breeding population.

This lead to the modern Undead State. The original Elite remain in power - they easily band together to put down any usurper. Each Elite has a vast pyramid of controlled undead that services their needs - mining, maintenance, construction and protection - and as such they have little need to try to control each other. The Government remains the most powerful force around so other other Elite pay it some deference but not much. Humans are kept as breeding stock and used to fulfill two main needs: food and replacement of damaged servants.

But what of entertainment? Well, for the undead who don't go in for the "torturing mortals" route, the Undead State is known for paying extremely well for entertainers and artists. They are guaranteed absolute safe passage and are sometimes offered a chance to convert to intelligent undead so that they can keep creating art forever.

Trade continues for novelties as well; Necropolitan merchants look normal enough that most people don't mind dealing with them. After the Undead State achieved a stable breeding population they had no need for expansion or raids, so they remain on good terms with their neighboring states; in fact The Undead State makes good money by lending out some of their servants as labor battalions for particularly dangerous or laborious work.
I find this very plausible. Comments?

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 12:53 PM
I see some more problems to address.

Creating a skelly or zombie via the Animate Dead spell costs 25 gp in onyx and a 3rd or 4th level spell. We'll be generous and assume that whoever is in charge of creating these things is either capable of casting the spell or has someone who is willing to cast it on their behalf. A mindless undead will only be suitable for performing grunt, untrained labor. Paying a commoner to do that costs 1sp a day. That means that before a zombie can pay for itself, it has to work for 250 days... and nothing bad has to happen to it in that time, because it can't heal itself. It can't be allowed to decay into uselessness (if its arms fall off, it's not a very good laborer, now is it?). Those damned hooligans next door can't be allowed to mess it up. No horses can get spooked and trample over it (it won't know to get out of the way). Otherwise, you've lost money. That's a lot of risk on your investment.


Classes which can animate dead at no or reduced cost would have an advantage. So Pale Masters would do well for example (and they'd already be dangerous because of their ability at 5th level to once daily take over an undead being with no save).

Fishy
2009-03-16, 01:26 PM
Of course, that 1sp/day is for an 8-hour 'day'. Zombies can work without rest or meal breaks. So, crank that back to more like 100 days, which actually isn't terrible return on an investment.

Greg
2009-03-16, 01:28 PM
When assassinating political rivals, you'd need to make sure their body is entirely destroyed so they aren't just revived as undead. Of course, this is somewhat similar to a usual D&D society (where if you get assassinated and are rich enough, you could have just left a will that states you should be resurrected or raised from the dead).
With the increase in life length in this society, there would be more higher level characters - ones able to cast true resurrection.

Randel
2009-03-16, 01:42 PM
A few ideas:

1). The Mummy Advisers
The rulers of the kingdom are universally living but have advisors who include both living and undead. Kings who die are brought back as intelligent undead so that they may impart their wisdom to the next generations. But the living advisors are valued because they retain their 'fresh' view of the world and can empathise with the living. The centuries old kingdom may go through periods where the living are seen as wiser than the undead due to their ability to see things anew, while in other periods the old undead are seen as wiser due to accumulated knowledge.

Assassination among the ruling class will probably be limited due to the fact that they have so many safeguards in place to make sure they get animated after death. Plus, a Wish spell can create a new body for someone even if their body was destroyed beyond recognition.

2). Pyramid Scheme
If you have people who aren't working on something then you can always MAKE work for them. And what better work is there than lugging around huge granite blocks to make pyramids? Either slaves or mindless undead like zombies and skeletons would fit (the undead work on night shift) and they can keep making huge buildings to honor the long-lived undead who pay for them. These could be filled with treasures and such that the owner accumulated in life and would like to keep after undeath. Expect several workrooms, some traps or barriers to keep out intruders, undead servants to maintain the place and entertain the owner. Some living people may come by to assist in maintaining the undeads health, ask for assistance in the world of the living (either to borrow some magic item, financial funding, request knowledge or political favors, or maybe to see one of the undead servants).

3). Tower of Souls
While there may be mindless undead who are little more than animated corpses, one may wonder where that persons soul went. Eventually, some magic user could develop a way to snag the souls of the dead and ensure they remain as ghosts or some other manifestation of their mind. A tower of souls would be a sort of material afterlife for those who can't afford to become an intelligent undead. It may have several floors that are jam-packed with the whispers of ghosts and the ground floor has a large room where visitors may enter to meet up with their departed loved ones.

Priests work there to maintain order with the dead and repair the structure when needed.

4). The Phylactery Vaults
Liches or other undead who keep their souls locked up in jars might not all have the time and money needed to build a Tomb of Horrors to protect the thing. So they go to one of the centuries old orders of Phylactery protectors who put the Secure in Security. These catacombs and vaults are all kept up-to-date with only the most lethal and powerful traps to keep things protected and the people who work there have been at it for generations.

5). Deadly Fashion
Living people go through great lengths to maintain their looks, occasionally going so far as to use toxic makeup or risky surgery. When your flesh is literally falling off your bones and you have no metabolism to speak of... fashion can get odd to say the least.

Some skeletons might have their bones gold-plated to prevent further oxidization and to give them a shine that will not tarnish. Gems placed in the eye sockets could be fashion accessories. Bandages or cloth soaked in preservatives could cover the unsightly flesh of a zombie while preventing decay, and perfume would be a must for any social undead. Hats and cloaks that protect from sunlight, padded shoes and gloves that reduce wear and tear on the skin, wigs or headdresses to make up for hair loss. Some of the more magically inclined undead may invest in shoes that let them float over the ground and an amulet of Hand of the Mage to let them move and handle things without moving a muscle (after all, moving those muscles around is just begging to have something wear down and break... when you have Rigor Mortis then its best to not fight it).

Particularly vain people who spent their lives maintaining their beauty might even opt to become ghosts or another incorporeal undead. Then have their perfect body preserved in amber or glass while their incorporeal self remains ageless and never loses its beauty. And lets not get into supermodels who decide to lose seventy pounds by becoming a skeleton!

6). International Trade .... when dealing with souls.
People from neighboring countries could react in many ways with this nation and trade could be one of the most noticeable. Perhaps another country would like an undead workforce of their own, or rich nobles from one place would like to 'live forever'. If a country is in the middle of a war, would they rather send their men out to possibly die in the battlefield or would they feel better by getting undead soldiers from the nearby Land of the Dead... and where would the raw material for these undead be coming from?

If this country is exporting undead to others then its quite possible that they don't have enough of their own citizens corpses to make them en masse. So they could import bodies from others, either alive or dead. In a war between neighboring countries, the two sides might start collecting the fallen corpses and shipping them to the Land of the Dead to have them turned into undead soldiers (one reason why wraiths and other spawning undead might not be used... it cuts into the undead weapons manufacturers profits... plus the whole 'destroying all life in the world' problem). Slavers in other contries might invade another to caputure and enslave its inhabitants, then sell them to the highest bidder. If that fails hey may just kill them and ship the corpses to make undead labor.

The land with an undead laborforce may soon become the biggest buyer and seller of slaves on the continent. After all, why should the inhabitants have their beloved grandmother plow the fields when they can buy up some foreign goblin slave for cheap, have him work till he drops (since a living slave just requires a slavedriver instead of a zombie controller) and then raise his corpse as an undead worker... or sell it off to someone who can do that.

Demand for slaves both dead and alive would create trade routes from counties from all over, increasing the wealth of this new empire and creating the necessity for an army (not at all difficult when you can turn unwanted slaves into cheap cannon fodder... and dead cannon fodder into undead cannon fodder... and dead enemy soldiers into undead allies.).

Needless to say, this can result in lots of problems. The land of the Dead could become a vast and powerful Empire whose economy is largly made prosperous by the slaves captured and brought in from other contries. Which could have some nasty consequences if the wrong leadership is put in charge.

Priest of Enslaved People: Pharaoh! Let my people go so that we may worship Pelor.

Pharaoh: Pelor? I do not know this Pelor... and I will never let your people go!

Ten Plagues Later...

Priest of Enslaved People: Now will you let us go?

Pharaoh: *looks out over his destroyed land, ruined crops, uncontrollable undead and the mountains of dust resulted from destroyed undead* Eh... yes... yes, would you please go? With my blessings of course.

Valentyne
2009-03-16, 01:44 PM
In a society with lots of undead the plague would probably be the result of all the corpses shambling around, and low birthrate would naturally result from all the negative energy leaking from the undead, no extra curses needed :smallbiggrin:

The negative energy would explain the current low birthrate...but what about the original cause for beginning to animate the undead? Such was the case in the book I read...there was an original cause for the low birthrate. But the number of the undead further contributed to the problem.

The negative energy is a nice idea. In the book, it had to do with balance. Each undead animated took the place of a birth....an unforeseen consequence and one that was not understood or accepted by the population. The continuing low birthrate was seen as an extension of the original curse (which had actually run its course many years previously).

The unforeseen consequence actually resulted in many stillbirths outside the country and made them many enemies.

Undeath was not so much a gift for the wealthy but a duty of all citizens....it was your duty to continue working after death and to continue providing for your decadents. Destroying a body was a crime as you were taking away from the workforce.

As to the mindless of the bodies...the book dealt with it this way. The body remembered simple, repetitive tasks...thus former farmers could continue working their fields without too much supervision. It was only complex or unusual jobs that required the supervision of the living

CthulhuM
2009-03-16, 05:10 PM
So, one problem that I actually don't think anyone has mentioned yet: undead are creepy.

Yes, sure, you're starting with the assumption that your society has accepted undead, and doesn't think they're evil or wrong, but that doesn't mean people would be happy to have them around. Zombies exist at the very, very bottom of the uncanny valley - they look human, but they aren't, at all.

People have mentioned still having grandma around the house after she dies... who in their right mind would want that? Even if she wasn't rotting, she would be dead - a mindless corpse that stares emptily across the table at dinner, that has to be lead to bed at night (where she lies staring at the ceiling all night until someone comes in in the morning and moves her), that will stand there staring at the wall washing the same dish for hours at a time if left unattended. Why would anyone want that? It wouldn't be touching, or respectful, it would just be morbid and unnerving.

The same thing is probably true of a farm full of zombies - what kind of person would want to be the one guy who sits there managing 20 corpses all day long, and knows that when he goes to sleep they'll still be there, standing all around him, waiting in the dark for instructions?

And all that's assuming nothing ever really goes wrong with the undead. What if, occasionally, something does? What if undead do sometimes spontaneously decide to start killing and devouring the living? What if undead previously used in wars get confused, and start practicing their soldiering skills on random civilians? What if hitmen go about their jobs by simply picking up a level of cleric, and turning some zombies on their master?

Long story short, I think it's unlikely people would actually become comfortable with the idea of mindless undead around, and intelligent undead bring about their own host of problems as many have mentioned above. If class warfare can lead to things like the french revolution in the real world, how much worse might they be in a world where the poor hated the rich not only for being rich, but out of an instinctive uncanny-valley-inspired fear and loathing? I think a society like that would be pretty much primed to explode, and when it did the results would not be pretty.


In the book, it had to do with balance. Each undead animated took the place of a birth....an unforeseen consequence and one that was not understood or accepted by the population. The continuing low birthrate was seen as an extension of the original curse (which had actually run its course many years previously).

Oh, and just out of curiosity, are you talking about the Death Gate Cycle?

Greg
2009-03-16, 05:25 PM
Long story short, I think it's unlikely people would actually become comfortable with the idea of mindless undead around, and intelligent undead bring about their own host of problems as many have mentioned above. If class warfare can lead to things like the french revolution in the real world, how much worse might they be in a world where the poor hated the rich not only for being rich, but out of an instinctive uncanny-valley-inspired fear and loathing? I think a society like that would be pretty much primed to explode, and when it did the results would not be pretty.
I cannot imagine eating the bodies of a dead person. That doesn't mean that this has never happened as a social norm within a community.

The undead at the top of the pile have access to longevity - meaning they can keep advancing their skills beyond the limit that death would usually have imposed. A society like this would not rely on precedent - the elders are precedent.

Grommen
2009-03-16, 05:46 PM
Well good news is that Necrophilia a hole lot more fun :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 05:56 PM
Long story short, I think it's unlikely people would actually become comfortable with the idea of mindless undead around, and intelligent undead bring about their own host of problems as many have mentioned above. If class warfare can lead to things like the french revolution in the real world, how much worse might they be in a world where the poor hated the rich not only for being rich, but out of an instinctive uncanny-valley-inspired fear and loathing? I think a society like that would be pretty much primed to explode, and when it did the results would not be pretty.

And this is why the upper classes unleash Ghouls and Wights among the proletariat; but be sure to kill/convert all the clerics beforehand :smallamused:

Oh, and Uncanny Valley-wise there are undead known as Necropolitans which act essentially like normal people save that they're undead. In my hypothetical kingdom these guys are the traders and diplomats that work with foreign nations.

Valentyne
2009-03-16, 06:14 PM
Oh, and just out of curiosity, are you talking about the Death Gate Cycle?

That could be the one. Its been years ago. And the books are in storage in another state.....

The Neoclassic
2009-03-16, 06:20 PM
With the increase in life length in this society, there would be more higher level characters - ones able to cast true resurrection.

Yes, but it's still more expensive than regular resurrection or raise dead, so it's not an option for any but the absolutely richest.

Krrth
2009-03-16, 09:26 PM
Just my 2c.


There needs to be turnover in the ranks of the undead, both mindless and intelligent.

If all the wealth and power is contained in a few powerful undead, then there will be a lot of scheming to take it.

Perhaps the easiest way would be for whatever ritual created the mindless undead to begin with has a (insurmountable) flaw: They can never be healed. Any damage they take will mount up.

I'm not sure what you would do for the intelligent ones.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:07 PM
There needs to be turnover in the ranks of the undead, both mindless and intelligent.

If all the wealth and power is contained in a few powerful undead, then there will be a lot of scheming to take it.

I can understand a desire for turnover in the Intelligent ranks, but why mindless?

Frankly, I think an armed truce is more likely, since those few Undead literally have legions of minions at their command. Why bother trying to beat up the Lich next door when there's a perfectly fine village across the border?

If you've read Doc Smith's Lensman series, I'm thinking the system will be a lot like Eddore's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddore#Planets_and_Places).

Krrth
2009-03-16, 10:15 PM
As my admittedly tired thoughts go, if there isn't a decent turnover in mindless undead, eventually there will be so many they greatly outnumber the living. At some point, it becomes pointless to raise another Zombie or Skeleton, due to lack of space if nothing else.

You could always raid (or invade) your neighbors, and that would be a great way to use up those excess bodies (pun intended).

Of course, if you do continually raid or invade, be prepared for your neighbors preparing for such.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:30 PM
As my admittedly tired thoughts go, if there isn't a decent turnover in mindless undead, eventually there will be so many they greatly outnumber the living. At some point, it becomes pointless to raise another Zombie or Skeleton, due to lack of space if nothing else.

You could always raid (or invade) your neighbors, and that would be a great way to use up those excess bodies (pun intended).

Of course, if you do continually raid or invade, be prepared for your neighbors preparing for such.

Come come! There is always room to expand and undead do break from time to time; cave ins, adventurers, war - the usual.

Am I really the only one who thinks that this civilization will just kill all their living members and raise them as perfectly obedient slaves?

Oh, and if you do need humans for some reason, two words: Breeding Pens. :smallamused:

Krrth
2009-03-16, 10:38 PM
Come come! There is always room to expand and undead do break from time to time; cave ins, adventurers, war - the usual.

Am I really the only one who thinks that this civilization will just kill all their living members and raise them as perfectly obedient slaves?

Oh, and if you do need humans for some reason, two words: Breeding Pens. :smallamused:

Sadly enough, no you're not. I foresee the same thing. That doesn't make for a very vibrant society though.....

To be honest, with that many undead around, I'd expect an entirely different ecology to be available. Things that prey on undead would be much more common.

Personally, a unique(ish) way of handling it would be to say that much concentrated negative energy causes the undead to evolve into something else.

Perhaps like oldstyle D&D monks, after a certain point the leave this plane of existence entirely?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:45 PM
Sadly enough, no you're not. I foresee the same thing. That doesn't make for a very vibrant society though.....

Actually, it can be. Remember, without bodily pleasures to occupy themselves (mostly), they're going to have to find new ways to entertain themselves. I imagine the Death Lords will be huge patrons of the arts and probably come up with all kinds of amoral hedonistic activities to take up their time.

Heck, they may even have an isolated city in their nation which is set up as an artist colony; no undead aside from some laborer skeletons under control of fairly fresh Necropolitans, and the greatest artists from all over the world come there to put on great exhibitions for the rewards of the Death Lords.

IMHO, the only way you're going to have an undead/living society work is if the people in charge are forbidden from taking undeath - at least while ruling. Perhaps when the mortal king gets too old, he is transformed into some convenient form of undead and sent to live in a City of the Dead which is home to all of the nation's greatest thinkers and rulers, preserved for all eternity in undeath.

That kind of nation is both creepy and mostly mortal. Also, totally sweet :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2009-03-16, 10:50 PM
Now that's an idea...when the wealthy and powerful die, they can be raised as a specific type of undead....that then joins the group mind of whatever family or organization they belonged to.

Politicians become part of the council of advisors, nobles join the ruling intelligence of their family.

Kind of like the Borg or Eldar.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:56 PM
Now that's an idea...when the wealthy and powerful die, they can be raised as a specific type of undead....that then joins the group mind of whatever family or organization they belonged to.

Politicians become part of the council of advisors, nobles join the ruling intelligence of their family.

Kind of like the Borg or Eldar.

Oh, they don't need to be a Hive Mind - they're just kept around in case the mortal rulers want their sage advice. I guess it's a lot like Futurama's Head Museum, except with more walking around.

Also, it might be helpful to preserve your mightiest warriors as Death Knights in case, y'know, you need 'em.

Heck, you can even Justify this by making it so that these intelligent undead just don't care about the living after a time, and so they go to live among their own. The living venerate them, but there is a taboo about having intelligent undead actually running anything.

Hmm... make Ancestor Worship the state religion, and make it so only initiates can "own" (and create) mindless undead. If the Church is forced to remain apolitical (perhaps based in the City of the Dead - or nearby) then you can also limit the risk that some goofball will start making an army of undead to take over the world.

Yes... that would be quite stable.

CthulhuM
2009-03-16, 11:55 PM
Yes... that would be quite stable.

Sociopolitically, yeah, it might actually work out. Of course, in DnD you also have the possibility of tippyworld to contend with, and with all of the most revered (i.e. most powerful) wizards and such being turned into immortal undead with the support and respect of their nation (and all the time they need to advance their magic further) - your city of the dead is going to be home to an absolutely absurd amount of power.

The various undead godlings might work to keep each other in check, and thus prevent any of them from, say, taking over the world, but it would still be somewhat unstable. And if the undead ever actually did agree to get together and see if they can't clean up that messy outside world a bit... well, good luck to anyone trying to stop them.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-17, 12:20 AM
Sociopolitically, yeah, it might actually work out. Of course, in DnD you also have the possibility of tippyworld to contend with, and with all of the most revered (i.e. most powerful) wizards and such being turned into immortal undead with the support and respect of their nation (and all the time they need to advance their magic further) - your city of the dead is going to be home to an absolutely absurd amount of power.

The various undead godlings might work to keep each other in check, and thus prevent any of them from, say, taking over the world, but it would still be somewhat unstable. And if the undead ever actually did agree to get together and see if they can't clean up that messy outside world a bit... well, good luck to anyone trying to stop them.

Oh my yes, that's a problem - but that's inherent in any D&D system. Personally, I'm sticking with the Dr. Manhattan-style disassociation with the outside world; I imagine all the archmages spend their time doing pure research or making Awesome But Impractical (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical) magical devices.

And if I were doing this world, I would totally have a major religion which is (rightly) freaked out by having a bunch of undead geniuses hanging out in one place, completely unsupervised. :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2009-03-17, 12:30 AM
Undead workforce:

1) On disease: For a slightly higher investment, you can apply unguent of timelessness on them before animation. Poof! Disease-free, Rot-free. Safe enough to gather food.

2) On supervision: The average 5th level caster will be able to control 20 HD of undead. That's 10 standard zombies. Factor in the cost of the caster, and you'll find that larger workforces with higher level casters become unfeasible. In addition, the workforce is limited by the caster's rest requirements. Enter the Fix:

Talismans of command. Every undead is created with a talisman of command (50gp value per HD of zombie/undead). Whoever holds the talisman can command the zombie, on the behalf of the caster who controls it.

Now, you have a high level caster (say, level 10), who controls 20 zombies. He has a pair of peasant overseers with all his talismans, directing the zombies in simble tasks. A total of 6 overseers, and the zombies are controlled by relatively cheap labor, freeing up the casters to perform their typical tasks. This still means that for zombies, you'll need an average of 1 caster level for every two zombies, which definately requires a significant non-zombie population.

But Not Tonight
2009-03-17, 12:32 AM
I read most of the first page but... Well, a lot of the posts were really long and saying pretty much the same thing.

Expectations:
At first, I would expect undead bondage to be way more available than the intentional creation of willing, intentional undead. Over time, as undead labour becomes more available, slavery goes out of fashion. Who wants labour they have to feed, and that will wreck the tools they are given? Undead do neither, for an appropriately heavy initial investment, of course. Wars would be started, not to get slaves, but to get corpses. This would drain the peasantry as they die in war, or are unable to protect their farms from being taken over by land hungry patricians. (Maybe anyone who serves in the army is allowed to rest in death--that is, they are exempt from reanimation--and doesn't have to suffer having their soul tied to a body they no longer control, just to give it motive power...)
As the peasantry is reduced, the landlords grow in power.
Basic undead, can they perform skilled labour? IRL, as slave labour became more common and used in a given occupation, free labour derided that labour as 'worthy of slaves.' Any occupation dominated by unintelligent undead would quickly grow such a stigma. 'Why would I want to become a potter, I ain't a skeleton yet!'
As more labour is dominated by undead, labour in general is associated with undead labour. The poor don't work, why should they? They are alive aren't they? They demand some of the fruit of dead labour. Just as the roman peasantry died as a result of slave labour, and subsequently existed in the form of the roman proletariat, with only one century in the committee centuria and dominant in the assemblies for voting, the alive-poor would only exist to be given bread and circuses, so as not to revolt and burn down some nobles' urban palace and to vote for them in elections.

Would they take the poor as raw material? I doubt it. In slave societies, after an initial period when people mortgaged themselves as collateral and were enslaved slavery of citizens, by private individuals was banned. Only the state could enslave people, and then only as punishment for crime.
Here, I would expect the same thing.

Eventually, soldiers will have to be recruited from the urban poor, who have no attachment to the state, and will be recruited by, and be loyal to, the individual generals (cheaper to pay for an army of living, than an army of undead. The when the living die, you stop paying the small amount for their continued service. The undead? You lose cheap labour!).
TSome day, the bourdaries will stop expandiing. The urban poor will only breed so much, and eventually the recruiting grounds will dry up. Military pressure from without will grow, as competing nobles fight for control within.

Economic effects: The peasantry are a source of income. You can sell them stuff.They sell their good and with that, they buy stuff off you again.
Undead... Not at all. They make stuff for you, which you can sell, but not to the peasantry, it is dead. But you don't need that. What do you need to sell for? You can just mine the gold with undead, and make stuff with the undead.
Money flows out of the undead empire as what little is actually needed is imported. Even more, what isn't needed, but is wanted for luxury will be bought from abroad. This makes trading partners rich, as the empire gets poorer. Who cares if they are rich, they are death fearing barbarians! But military strength is declining. Much of what currently exists is actually in the form of death fearing barbarian mercenaries...
The fall will come...

How to alter all of this with people who can come back from the dead, to unlive while their great^7grandchildren are getting through their mid-life crises?
Wouldn't have a clue there, sorry.

Why even have intelligent undead? Why not save the vampire/mummy/lich kingdom for another country?
Besides, the rituals to make such undead are really hard to get. Most people wouldn't ever get beyond level 3, and the best would probably be not higher than 6.
Clerics who can cast Animate Undead would be some of the most powerful. The one who can cast Create Undead? S/he is the most powerful, probably a lich him/herself...

MickJay
2009-03-17, 05:19 AM
Idea of "adopting" family members into ranks of undead ancestors is one of the major characteristics or the vampire clan Giovanni from oWoD; the oldest vampires rule the clan and decide who of the new generation is to be given a position of power (and the "immortality").

horngeek
2009-03-17, 06:13 AM
The Inevitables would be very, very annoyed. Very.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-17, 07:18 AM
2) On supervision: The average 5th level caster will be able to control 20 HD of undead. That's 10 standard zombies. Factor in the cost of the caster, and you'll find that larger workforces with higher level casters become unfeasible. In addition, the workforce is limited by the caster's rest requirements. Enter the Fix:
Partial Fix, that's pure Core: Oil of Animate Dead. For a Cleric, Animate Dead is a 3rd level nonpersonal spell, and as such is fully viable for making into an oil or potion. When someone applies an oil, the person applying the oil is the caster, the thing the oil is applied to is the target. A few 5th level Clerics with Brew Potion can (if they can get the materials and XP...) put 20 HD of mindless undead under the control of any arbitrary person they wish - provided the arbitrary person is capable and willing to use the oil.

Note: A caster level 5 potion of Animate Dead, that's good for 20 HD of undead (requires an area under the effects of Desecrate, but that's just a Cleric-2 spell) would market at 750 gp (potion itself) + 500 gp (25 gp per hit die material components) = 1,250 gp (and 85 gp to hire a casting of Desecrate, but you can spread that out among multiple controllers, given the duration). Assuming for the moment you let the user spread it out over multiple uses (a drop on each dead body?) then for about 1,250 gp, plus the cost of the bodies, you can equip a living servant with 20 human skeletons (1 HD each - more useful than Zombies for most things). Which means the "market price" of a standard skeleton would be 62.5 gp (plus whatever it costs to get the body). If you go with the business world minimum of "make back your costs within five years", then a year's rent on a skeleton would be 12.5 gp - a hair over 1 gp/month. Double that for a profit margin, and it's still cheaper than hiring untrained laborers....

derfenrirwolv
2009-03-17, 07:45 AM
Undead water wheels

10 undead (humans or animals, take your choice" Simply being told to "push" or stop. They can power anything from grain refining, bucket wenches for pumping out mines, saws for carving stone blocks, and cleaning wool.

Zen Master
2009-03-17, 09:30 AM
Having an undead workforce available means virtually unlimited production. It becomes possible to create a society where no one need lack for food, clothes, homes - virtually anything that manual labor can create, can be available for free for everyone.

Not that it necessarily is - that all depends on the mindset of the necromancers. And the above is the absolute best scenario.

But lets say the necromancers have a bit of personal ambition. Lets say they bend the rules a little, or just don't feel like sharing the wealth with everyone. Then we have, say, a priesthood in control of an inexhaustable workforce - to use for whatever they might desire. They could make or break noble families, political factions or entire empires at a whim, depending on who they support - with one of the most solid arguments in known history:

Emperor Urkain: Priests of Mordent, how can you deny me the workers to till the fields, so the population will starve?

Archdeacon Malfion: Thus is the divine will of Mordent. Inscrutable are his ways, endless his wisdom, undeniable his command! But have faith, oh emperor - Mordent knows all, and this is for the best.