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View Full Version : What the heck is this and how do we kill it (3.5 Monster)?



theMycon
2009-03-15, 09:52 PM
My exhausted & beaten (all level 10) party is at the end of a tower. Guarding the exit is a creature no-one can ID. We have a great amount of information on him, though. The DM first described it as "Looks like a water elemental, but a little... demonic", He then pointed to a picture of a Balrog that was hanging from the wall "Wait, no, he looks like that, but watery."

From direct DM statement: He's CR 11. His attacks are evil-aligned (and do more damage to good characters). He's large, and has reach (10). He can either see invisibility (NOT blindsight). Gets two attacks per round. He will hit everyone (except possibly me) on anything but a 1.

Inferred: He's an evil outsider (IDing him is either knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Arcana.) May or may not be able to move out of a puddle of water he's on (hasn't done so yet)*. Average damage of 25 per attack (he's hit five times, all done between 20 & 30 HP). Has a BAB of at least 13 (Houserule on Tumble to avoid AoO's is 15+BAB, a 27 didn't make it). He has an SR of at least 24 (Most of our usual Debuff routine didn't pass), and at least a decent fort save (the rest of our debuff routine failed). He doesn't mind working with Drow (That who own this tower). Only seems to have 1 AoO per round (has done so when we've provoked 3). Does not resist mirror image in any way (trial & error).

Stuff we have no idea on: DR, Sapience, fast healing, spellcasting, mobility, ranged attacks, whether or not he needs to see.

Hopefully that's enough to ID him. Or, if not, enough to at least get some tactical planning started. Here's what we have to work with:

One Sorc, who probably has his level 5 spell slot(s) still working, and generally chooses debuffs as his spells. And UMD.
His Familiar, an imp who's usually flying, invisible, and carrying a spell-storing dagger.
His Cohort, a dwarf Rogue, who is probably at full strength. TWF & UMD.
One Ranger, who has Evil Outsiders as one of his favored enemies, and a few spells left. He's at 3HP because he found the creature, and it landed 3 attacks before he bolted. Usually our main damage dealer, as his to-hit bonus is 1.5-3x everyone else's, and we run into almost exclusively his favored enemies.
My strangely useful monk (pathfinder version)**, who's got Good & Lawful aligned fists, blindsight 30, and a small variety of bane arrows. Unfortunately, he's at half HP & out of ki/self-activated buffs other than fly.
We "have" a wizard, but he decided to open a door we knew was trapped (note that we have a rogue), and got hit with feeblemind. Fortunately, this door also leads us up behind the monster. We're going to spring for a Limited Wish scroll or Heal casting when we get out, but I don't think we can deal with it now.

Mostly core spell options (Only the ranger & his one Schroedinger's 3rd level spellslot could go non-core). No immediate urgency, but we probably can't sleep. Two openings to the Room of Doom. Lots & lots of potions/wands (so we can probably heal, and I could get my AC up to mid-30's for about a minute), a few scrolls. We may level between sessions and get a few more resources (going to 11).

The tower seems like we've killed everything but it and the unfriendly-but-not-hostile 18th level wizard at the top (She threw a disintegrate as a warning shot, but let us leave.) There's a terrace that I say we should just jump down from (everyone but the rogue can fly or featherfall, and we've all got rope) three floors up, and a portal-trap to the negative energy plane two floors up (that I've already shoved a golem through. I have no idea if that will "kill" him, but he's stuck there.) While escape is the main goal, we're trying to grab the ranger's Animal Companion (inside the fence, but outdoors) and one particularly nice slave (not locked up, one or two room detour through not-particularly-guarded area).

In brief, the opening tried first is a staircast around The Monster's puddle, so you'd have to walk through his threatened squares, single file. The back door brings out out about 20' away from him. He can reach up to the ceiling, and is partially covering the portal that takes us out.

Since our Debuffs have universally failed against him, and I don't think I could grapple/Bull Rush/anything him into that -Energy portal, our plans include "full-frontal attack" or "buff the monk's AC to high heaven, have him provoke AoO's, and just run straight into the escape portal ignoring him entirely and hoping he can't follow."

*Yes, this would make the battle pretty easy, but the module hates us. So I assume he can walk through walls if he really wants to.
**I know they're supposed to be "still pretty bad", but he's solo'd 2 CR-above-us enemies today***, and survived a trap to the negative energy plane on his lonesome. This was before he dumped the golem there, and how he figured out it's a bad, bad place and no-one should ever walk through that portal willingly.
***Not as bad of an idea as it sounds. The tower stairs make us go single-file, and he can basically ignore anything that requires a save or a touch attack, and twice everyone else's movement. And mage-slayer/stunning fist/Combat Reflexes/self-enlarging for reach. Greatest Combo Ever.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-15, 11:23 PM
Not certain on the exact stats(the advancing monster rules are confusing and hard), but it sounds like an Advanced Half-Fiendish Large Water Elemental. In that case, it probably has between 11 and 15 HD(most likely 14).

Statblock:Advanced Half-Fiendish Large Water Elemental
HD: 14d8+84
Init: +4
Speed: Ground 20, Swim 90, Fly 20
AC: 23
BAB/Grapple: 11/22
Full Attack: 2 Claws +18 melee(1d6+7), 2 Slams +13 melee(2d8+7), Bite +13 melee(1d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10/10
Special Attacks: Water Mastery, Drench, Vortex, Smite Good 1/day
Special Qualities: DR 5/-, Darkvision, immune to poison, resist Acid/Fire/Cold/Electricity 10, DR 10/Magic, SR 24, Elemental Traits(maybe)
Saves: Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 4
SLAs: Darkness 3x, Desecrate, Unholy Blight, Poison 3x, Contagion, Blasphemy, Unholy Aura 3x, Unhallow
Stats: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills/Feats: Unpredictable, but 5+ featsIn other words, you're screwed. Have fun.

krossbow
2009-03-16, 02:08 AM
Occasionally DM's just make stuff up.

JackMage666
2009-03-16, 02:33 AM
He might have a simple True Seeing effect on him, if he can see Invisibility just fine, as well as Mirror Image not working.

I'm guessing it's a custom job. Made either with templates, or just made for the module.

Kris Strife
2009-03-16, 02:39 AM
Large amounts of A: Fire, B: High Explosives or C: Sodium

Blackfang108
2009-03-16, 08:50 AM
Large amounts of A: Fire, B: High Explosives or C: Sodium

Seconded.

Although fire probably won't work.

You'll want either: Sodium or Potassium.

alternately, you can pour concrete over him.

ericgrau
2009-03-16, 09:19 AM
Actually water elementals aren't immune to fire. In d&d fire seems to just be heat. In fact if you cast a fire spell underwater it creates steam and it's just as effective. If a fireball can create the several hundred degrees required to melt certain metals, it can make the 212 degrees required to boil water.

Water elementals have DR/-; no way to break it with a weapon. Since it's fiendish or demonish or something it probably also has DR/(cold iron and/or good). Most spells should work, though elementals are immune to paralysis and poison. So bless your weapons, magic them if they're not already magicked, and lob any spells you feel like lobbing.

Dragonsdoom
2009-03-16, 09:32 AM
If you want to just get by the thing and lock him down a Sleet Storm(PHB 280) might be what you need.

If you have access to them, and the environment is workable, a quick combo of Soften Earth(PHB 280) and Transmute Mud to Rock(PHB 295) may prove interesting...

Chronos
2009-03-16, 10:44 AM
It sounds like the real goal is just getting past this thing, not necessarily killing it. In that case, you just want to take a different route out of the tower that doesn't go past it. If there isn't such a route, then you want to make one.

Do you have any of the following spells: Stone Shape, Transmute Rock to Mud, Passwall, Fabricate, Teleport, Gaseous Form, Dimension Door, or Blink? Alternately, do you have any adamantine tools or weapons you could use to cut a hole in a wall?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-16, 03:37 PM
Maybe a water element creature (Manual of the Planes)?

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 04:30 PM
Have you tried targeting its Will save with Hold Monster and such? It can't be that high-WIS. And then just walk by it while it's paralyzed.

hamishspence
2009-03-16, 05:10 PM
Its not one of the Avatars of Elemental Evil in MMIV, is it? One fits Evil + Water quite well.

Assassin89
2009-03-16, 07:42 PM
A certain magical item that might help is dust of dryness, since it could destroy the monster on a failed DC 18 Fortitude save, but it deals 5d6 on a successful save.

Crow
2009-03-16, 07:50 PM
I think your DM just made that thing up. Which is great. Some DM's forget that they can do that. =)

Kris Strife
2009-03-16, 08:30 PM
Seconded.

Although fire probably won't work.

You'll want either: Sodium or Potassium.

alternately, you can pour concrete over him.

Fire is one of those if X amount of fire fails, use X*Y^Z amount of fire.

Fostire
2009-03-16, 08:49 PM
Fire is one of those if X amount of fire fails, use X*Y^Z amount of fire.
Seconded

If you ever encounter a creature that you don't know how to kill, use fire. If that doesn't work you haven't used enough fire.

aarondirebear
2009-03-16, 08:56 PM
You need the leaf shield.

theMycon
2009-03-17, 12:24 PM
Two more sizable advantages: 1: The Sorc has "assay Spell Resistance", a level 4 spell that seems to say "I'll penetrate your SR for the next minute or so, unless I roll a 1 on the check."
2: The last battle gave a spell-storing Qstaff.

Again, I'm a monk with Spring Attack (because it was a "no-pre-reqs" bonus feat) and a move of 60. So this basically works out to "no-SR arcane reach".

Also, it's let me realize one +2 weapon (or two +2 & double-hit - still costs less than a +3 - if you want both end for double-storing) ends & one bonus feat gives arcane reach for everybody. For spells of 3 or under. There's gotta be an upgraded version of Spell-storing somewhere.

And just if anyone hears of the horrible, horrible things done to us in this tower & wants to try it- It's a Pathfinder module, somewhere in the "Second Darkness" Campaign.

(My apologies that I can't reply to all)
SstoopidTallKid, I really wish that was it, because with the slow move it looks pretty harmless. That can Blaspheme us once, to daze for a round and make melee attacks do little damage, then it probably can't even get in range of anyone- and doesn't have much in the way of defenses and only twice our party's remaining HP total. Unfortunately, the Water Balrog has a confirmed only 2 attacks that seem to btoh do more damage than the slam's maximum.

Kill it with Fire folk- wizard's feebleminded. Sorceror mostly debuffs- I'm not even sure if he has fire. Ranger & I both have a few flaming arrows, though.

JackMage666 My wording was bad, there. I meant that he did nothing unexpected against Mirror Image- he took them down as usual, instead of smacking the familiar directly. Though, this probably does mean that he needs to see... I suppose we can use every spell slot >=2 into blindness and hope he eventually fails.

Chronos, I've already pointed out, twice, to the party that there's an open-air terrace just a little bit up. I believe my exact words were "We don't have to fight that golem, standing in a cloudkill, right behind a corner, with four wizards behind him, completely blocking the path, with the portal-to-the-negative-energy-plane trap at the other end of the corridor so we have nowhere to retreat to, as we're standing in a single-file line. We can escape from the terrace that's right behind us." I got out-voted, but argued them into buffing me to high-heaven and chucked the golem into the negative energy plane before I got dispelled. Then the ranger noticed all the wizards were his favored enemies & his bow was them-bane, and they quickly turned into glowing mush.

The second time I suggested this was along the lines of "okay, the wizard's been reduced to a gibbering mess (feeblemind trap) and his player walked off swearing profusely. But he's got a ring of featherfall. Let's just push him off the side of the tower and go." That vote was a tie.

Also... yes, the wizard had (has?) all of those spells, and specifically announced he had teleport prepped for an emergency. However, he can't cast spells right now. I have ten (10) adamantine arrows because I like to be prepared, though.

Jarrick
2009-03-17, 02:09 PM
Maybe a water element creature (Manual of the Planes)?

Seconded. That would explain its unwillingness to leave the puddle.

By your description, I believe the base creature you are looking for is a fiendish outsider CR 9 with the ability to cast blasphemy as an 11-14th level caster.

Glabrezu almost fits if your monster used chaos hammer instead of blasphemy and if your DM forgot to factor in the CR adjustment of the water elemental template.

Hope that helps a little

theMycon
2009-03-17, 03:55 PM
As said in the OP, we have no real proof of its spellcasting/SLA abilities. The closests evidence we have is that he could see an invisible familiar we were hoping might blind him. The mention of "Blasphemy" was only in response to SstoopidTallKid's highlighting it in the stat-block he posted- hence the "I wish it was that monster... it can blaspheme us once then it's harmless." I had hoped the context made clear what we're fighting isn't harmless.

Just to avoid further confusion, I'm gonna edit the above post to change the offending "it" to a "that".

Lapak
2009-03-17, 04:20 PM
I'm pretty sure that you had the right idea to begin with. If I was the DM in your situation, and you were facing a creature that resisted your best efforts to hurt it, hurt you badly, guarded only one way out, and didn't seem interested in moving, I'd be expecting you to find a way around it. Jump off the balcony. Come back when the wizard's mind is restored and you've got more resources on hand if you think it's critical or if you are forced to leave someone/something important behind.

That, or find a terrain-based way to overcome it as you did with the golem. Is there any indication that its pool can be drained? Maybe this is as simple as pulling a plug. Can you collapse a stairway or part of the next floor up on it?

Jarrick
2009-03-18, 07:39 PM
As said in the OP, we have no real proof of its spellcasting/SLA abilities. The closests evidence we have is that he could see an invisible familiar we were hoping might blind him. The mention of "Blasphemy" was only in response to SstoopidTallKid's highlighting it in the stat-block he posted- hence the "I wish it was that monster... it can blaspheme us once then it's harmless." I had hoped the context made clear what we're fighting isn't harmless.

Just to avoid further confusion, I'm gonna edit the above post to change the offending "it" to a "that".

Oh, oops. I see that now and feel silly. :smallredface:

Well, it's still a pretty close match, as far as damage and SR, but glabrezu isn't the culprit due to the fact that it doesn't deal extra damage to good, and true seeing would have thwarted mirror image unless it was just messing with you. I am, however, sticking to my guns on the water element creature template and therefore (probably) CR 9 (template adds +2 CR for higher HD creatures). From there, it's a matter of finding the right base creature. ::Dives into pile of books:: This could take some time... but I love a good puzzle. What books with fiends in them does your DM own?

As for beating it, have you considered asking the unfriendly wizard upstairs nicely for help, or at least if there was an easier way out (phrased like "to get us out of your hair faster")?

SoD
2009-03-19, 01:51 AM
As for beating it, have you considered asking the unfriendly wizard upstairs nicely for help, or at least if there was an easier way out (phrased like "to get us out of your hair faster")?

"I cast sending to speak with the evil drow wizard at the top of the tower we've been fighting our way through!"
RING RING
"Hello?"
"Hey, Mr. Drow. I'm one of the guys whose been stealing your stuff, freeing your slaves and killing your guards."
"I see."
"And I was just wondering...how do we get out?"
"Whereabouts are you?"
"Between the evil water thing and the negative plane portal."
"Right...one moment, I'll just put you on hold for a moment while I go check the plans for the tower. I'll just be a moment."
"Thanks!"
ON HOLD
Wizard: "Now where did I put those scrolls? Ah. Greater Invisibility. Teleport. Silenced Maximised Disintergrate."
Adventurer: *crumbles*

Triaxx
2009-03-19, 07:07 AM
I'm thinking that there are two things to do. First is to remind the DM that you are not in fact in any sort of condition for combat. Second, look around the monster. Focus on the surroundings of the area. Is there a way to drain the puddle? Or punch a hole through the floor so the monster falls to the level below?

The only other thought is to put the wizard on watch and rest for eight hours. Wizard gets watch because he's useless baggage at this point. Unless you have the means to resurrect him in which case he should be stripped naked and sent charging at the monster so it can kill him and he can then be resurrected Feeblemind free. Then you're a teleport away from freedom.

theMycon
2009-03-19, 08:57 PM
"I cast sending to speak with the evil drow wizard at the top of the tower we've been fighting our way through!"
RING RING
"Hello?"
"Hey, Mr. Drow. I'm one of the guys whose been stealing your stuff, freeing your slaves and killing your guards."
"I see."
"And I was just wondering...how do we get out?"
"Whereabouts are you?"
"Between the evil water thing and the negative plane portal."
"Right...one moment, I'll just put you on hold for a moment while I go check the plans for the tower. I'll just be a moment."
"Thanks!"
ON HOLD
Wizard: "Now where did I put those scrolls? Ah. Greater Invisibility. Teleport. Silenced Maximised Disintergrate."
Adventurer: *crumbles*

Aside from it being Ms. instead of Mr... This is roughly accurate as to how I would play it, and the expected response. Except she she might eventually ask why I said "Ms Drow", and not "Mrs. Drow", and I might add "firstborn son and husband" to the list of people we've killed.
In my defense, they are the ones who thought sticking a golem in a cloudkill at a chokepoint was a good defensive strategy. The ones who sat in the corner & cried, after they saw what happened to those two, at least survived with being beaten into a coma & having both wrists broken.

... That doesn't exactly sound like a "good guy" thing to do, does it?