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The Neoclassic
2009-03-15, 10:16 PM
Why are assassins evil? Why are vampires evil? Well, here's the next logical step: Why do mindflayers have to be evil? Granted, there's probably some serious psychological and biological rationale, but there must be a way around that! :smallbiggrin:

Shades of Gray
2009-03-15, 10:18 PM
I distinctly remember talk about a group of LG Mind Flayers who survive off a tamed Hydra's regenerating brains.

alexeduardo
2009-03-15, 10:20 PM
but there must be a way around that! :smallbiggrin:

Suddenly, the image of a mindflayer with intricate clockwork machinery in his head to such a level that he's rendered wise but paralytic springs to Alexeduardo's mind.

Keep Talking

Gorbash
2009-03-15, 10:22 PM
I distinctly remember talk about a group of LG Mind Flayers who survive off a tamed Hydra's regenerating brains.

Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-15, 10:31 PM
Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

Hmm, what if there was a way to numb/eliminate the pain and the hydras did in fact have regeneration?

Yukitsu
2009-03-15, 10:36 PM
Mindflayers eat the brains of sentient creatures, and seek to enslave a bunch of other races. Since their economy relies on eating brains of relatively self aware creatures, they tend to kidnap and murder people. They don't find ways around this because the elder brains, which are all evil for ancient and arbitrary reasons are evil, and each and every mind flayer is psychically connected to their elder brain. Any non-lawful evil mental workings gets them executed in mindflayer societies.

They go into more detail in lords of madness, but this is mostly why mind flayers are evil.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-15, 10:40 PM
Didn't we already have this discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5883185&postcount=178)? :smallwink:

You can come up with all the wacky ways to get around what they have to do as a species in order to live, but the question is: why would a Mind Flayer want to change in the first place?

Flickerdart
2009-03-15, 10:43 PM
Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.
1. Behead.
2. Eat brain of beheaded head.
3. 2 heads grow back.
4. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unless 3.5 hydras don't regrow heads anymore, which is dumb.

Dixieboy
2009-03-15, 10:58 PM
1. Behead.
2. Eat brain of beheaded head.
3. 2 heads grow back.
4. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unless 3.5 hydras don't regrow heads anymore, which is dumb.Not only is it dumb but it makes it no longer a hydra, that was sort of the thing that made the hydra unique when compared to other big lizards

Innis Cabal
2009-03-15, 11:01 PM
Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture.

Its just like eating a normal animal....so how is it torture? Its just an alien way of gaining a food suppy...which would sort of be in line with them being abberations.

As to why they are evil. They willfully and maliciously capture creatures to test their magics and sciences on. Plot multi-versal domination(Again), and their very method of reproduction casts them as evil.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-15, 11:05 PM
They willfully and maliciously capture creatures to test their magics and sciences on. Plot multi-versal domination(Again)

Yes, but it's not too hard to imagine a few mindflayers who reject those things or leave such an evil society.


and their very method of reproduction casts them as evil.

Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

Knaight
2009-03-15, 11:07 PM
They still grow heads. Hence the order of the stick comic where they got the hydra to the point where it passed out from having too many heads(that can't happen, but the heads thing does). They need heads regrowing, its totally key.

Draken
2009-03-15, 11:10 PM
According to Lord's of Madness, there is a miriad of reasons. First of all, the need to eat brains, the mind flayers don't need to eat sentient brains. Any brain works. But mind flayers treat the memories in the brain as the flavour. As such, animal brains, simply put, taste bad. While adventurer brains are like the finest dish one can find. Thus, they are evil because they choose to eat sentient beings when they could, in fact, not.

Next. We have the ilithid mindset. Ilithids are described as creatures prone to strong emotions. But all their emotions are negative. They hate, they envy, they despise, they feel superior. They have no compassion, they develop no friendiship or attachment. The closest to a positive emotion they have is a sense of joy atained when eating a brain.

Truth be said, what makes then evil, as far as the books say, is their mindset. Everything else steems from that, they are byologically evil, to the core.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-15, 11:11 PM
This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe.

If one wants to plausibly have mindflayers and beholders and aboleths and other terrible horrors that make humans completely pitiful and insignificant in comparison then an alignment system that has real effects on the way the universe functions and that reflects human morality doesn't make any sense. Such a system only makes sense if human-like creatures really are important.

Yukitsu
2009-03-15, 11:12 PM
Yes, but it's not too hard to imagine a few mindflayers who reject those things or leave such an evil society.

Those that intend to do so are killed by the elder brain without exception. Assuming some do so, and somehow survive is almost unfathomable.


Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

Krytha
2009-03-15, 11:21 PM
Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

I wonder how that evolved...

At least you dont feel any pain once it gets hungry!

Yukitsu
2009-03-15, 11:23 PM
I wonder how that evolved...

At least you dont feel any pain once it gets hungry!

It takes around a half a day to die from the process. :smallconfused:

The aberations didn't evolve per se. All aberations came from the far realm, and do not fit into any ecological niche.

OldTrees
2009-03-15, 11:27 PM
If I remember correctly, The Illithids evolve in the semi near future. Then they build their empire. Then they travel back in time to escape the revolution. From there it could be that they replace the abberation that would evolve into them. If this is the case then they never evolved they just are.

NPCMook
2009-03-15, 11:28 PM
Oh no, you are going to feel immense pain.

First the Larva is going to break your skull open and shatter your ear drum, then its going to begin devouring your brain, most likely going for the motor skills first to keep you from clawing it out, or smashing your own head open and then you will begin to lose your memories that you once held dear. Perhaps this is why Mind Flayers are so Evil, the first Mind Flayer went insane with pain, and so he wanted all others to feel his pain

Draken
2009-03-15, 11:30 PM
It takes around a half a day to die from the process. :smallconfused:

The aberations didn't evolve per se. All aberations came from the far realm, and do not fit into any ecological niche.

Not really.

Aberrations share a creature kind for the rules, but given biological classification, each one would stand out as it's own group. Also, very few aberrations actually hail form the Far Realm.

Aboleths: Material entities. Hail from the very beggining of creation, predating the gods themselves.

Ilithids: Material entities. Hail form the future. Their species hasn't even evolved yet.

Beholders: Material entities. Created by insane deity that resides in the Abyss.

Neogi, Grell and Tsochar are creatures from other planets in the material plane, as far as their descriptions go. They don't fit because they don't belong. It's like taking a species from a continent and implanting it on another, it leads to great ambiental damage.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-15, 11:32 PM
Those that intend to do so are killed by the elder brain without exception. Assuming some do so, and somehow survive is almost unfathomable.

Ceremorphosis. They implant one of their larva into the ear of a still living humanoid. They must be human, elven (drow), githyanki, githzerai, and a few others that I can't remember for the process to work. The person's brain is eaten by the larva over a week or something, before the larva takes over the bodily functions and replaces the tissues with their own, forming an adult illithid.

So... Nonevil mindflayers are possible in theory, just not going to be able to survive in practicality given the Elder Brain? Also, they could just choose not to reproduce. :smallwink:

Innis Cabal
2009-03-15, 11:34 PM
Remind me how they reproduce? Does it have to involve the destruction of alive, intelligent creatures or is there a way around it?

Like others have said....they feed off of huminoid creatures and use them to breed.

Dixieboy
2009-03-15, 11:51 PM
So... Nonevil mindflayers are possible in theory, just not going to be able to survive in practicality given the Elder Brain? Also, they could just choose not to reproduce. :smallwink:
No not only due to the elder brain, they NEED to eat them brains, also they are born out of a ritual involving the replacement of the nerve system of a helpless sentient being while it is still alive, feeling as it's brain is slowly eaten away by a tadpole that will soon take over it's body.

Would you starve yourself to death just so squids could live?
That is what a good Mind flayer would be doing, we are just as alien to them as squids are to us.

Gorbash
2009-03-16, 12:03 AM
Its just like eating a normal animal....so how is it torture?

Because you eat it while it's alive?

Mikeavelli
2009-03-16, 12:03 AM
If I remember correctly, The Illithids evolve in the semi near future. Then they build their empire. Then they travel back in time to escape the revolution. From there it could be that they replace the abberation that would evolve into them. If this is the case then they never evolved they just are.

That was the Lords of Madness explanation, and I always hated it.

The other explanations include:

One from when they first came out with the Far Realm stuff, they detailed one expedition where an unfortunate adventurer got infected with something while he was in the Far Realm, and underwent ceremorphesis because of it, implying that Illithid larvae exist in the Far Realm naturally, and crossed over into this realm by the same process sometime far back in the annals of time.

One where they're just Ancient, a form of life that existed before the current order of things, sort of like Aboleths They were the "humans" back in the day, with a planes-spanning empire and everything in existence centered around them. They've never forgotten this, or lost this attitude, even though they're now relegated to bit players in the grand scheme of things.

The Gith rebelliion and subsequent fall of the Illithid empire was actually the beginning of the current order of things. Some day, in the far future, humanity itself will fall, and live out the rest of its days as small collections of fearsomely powerful individuals lurking at the edges of whatever society springs up after them.

Karma Guard
2009-03-16, 01:10 AM
This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe.

If one wants to plausibly have mindflayers and beholders and aboleths and other terrible horrors that make humans completely pitiful and insignificant in comparison then an alignment system that has real effects on the way the universe functions and that reflects human morality doesn't make any sense. Such a system only makes sense if human-like creatures really are important.

What?

What does this have to do with 'creatures that live off eating sentient beings' brains and reproduce by horribly murdering other ones not to mention the whole enslavement thing' being evil (or not)?

Humanoids ARE important. They're everywhere. They're the roaches of the planes (prove me wrong <( ._.)> ). You just can't get rid of the buggers.

Dixieboy
2009-03-16, 01:14 AM
What?

What does this have to do with 'creatures that live off eating sentient beings' brains and reproduce by horribly murdering other ones not to mention the whole enslavement thing' being evil (or not)?

Humanoids ARE important. They're everywhere. They're the roaches of the planes (prove me wrong <( ._.)> ). You just can't get rid of the buggers.You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

Fjolnir
2009-03-16, 02:09 AM
The mind flayers(and other various abominations) are evil according to the other sentient races, due to whatever machinations put them in the material plane they at various points saw themselves at the top of the food chain (both beholders and mind flayers had multiplanar empires) but due to the actions of beings they consider little more than slightly smarter monkeys (remember they're among the most intelligent base beings out there) they're no longer on top and now the VERMIN are running the show. Add to that the fact that they perform actions that are rather repulsive as part of their basic lifecycle (Ceremorphosis, brain eating, etc) and that they are beholden to their elder brains (basically they have a psychic link to ever mind flayer for miles) and most of them are evil (from a humanoid standpoint)you see the "mindflayers are evil" argument

also doesn't Ceremorphosis cause half illithids if the creature isn't a human, elf or drow?

you could do the whole "LG elder brain makes his city feed off large animals and only implant tadpoles in the willing" thing, but as twilight proved, that's fairly lame

Skaven
2009-03-16, 02:28 AM
You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

Not all.

Some are Dragons.

I -think- there are some that have animal shape too.

Belobog
2009-03-16, 02:59 AM
You could, but seeing as all the gods are humanoid...

And look at how many of those are around. :smalltongue:

But yeah, Illithids are pretty much Made To Go Evil. From the 'only negative emotions' to 'bodily and mental terrors' to 'impossible to assail strongholds to challenge the best of the best', these guys are built for times when you want to throw something big and complicated at a group. I mean, the Elder Brain running the show thinks of its Illithid fellows like Illithids think of humanoids; while they're busy worshiping it, and it's busy egging them on about how perfect their minds will be when they're included into its make-up after death, it's really only waiting for their sweet, succulent brains. Screams straight up Evil society to me.

Also, I think Ceremorphosis is applicable to anything with a sapient (by DnD standards, an Int of 3) brain, as the Illithid Roper can attest to. What will happen when you toss a tadpole inside a Griffon, though, there's no telling. It makes me wonder how it works with aberrations...could there be Illithid Aboleths? :smalleek:

As for their origins, I'm quite partial to the 'Threat from the future past' deal, but only because of the idea of an existence loop; evolving in the future, and then escaping into the past, only to die there. Poetic, in a way.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-16, 03:52 AM
Actually the pre-Ceremorphosis is also quite horrendous: the Illithid tadpoles put into the same vat as the Elder Brain quite shortly after birth, where they are fed reject brain matter while attempting to survive the Elder Brain who feeds upon them. Those who survive to maturity are the ones that are previliged with ceremorphosis.


Also, I think Ceremorphosis is applicable to anything with a sapient (by DnD standards, an Int of 3) brain, as the Illithid Roper can attest to. What will happen when you toss a tadpole inside a Griffon, though, there's no telling. It makes me wonder how it works with aberrations...could there be Illithid Aboleths? There is a Half-Illithid template around for those creatures that do not produce "true Illithids".

Khanderas
2009-03-16, 04:00 AM
I have always been under the impression that Ilithids cannot gain any substantial sustainence from eating a nonsentients brain because a brain is made of little more then fat, volumewise. If it was just the nutrients, they could just eat lard from any animal.
Obviously they do eat the brain, and discard the rest, as far as food is concerned, therefore they need the mental energy they pull out of their victims as it dies.
And I do mean dies, no shortcuts like rings of sustainence, or half-eating something with regeneration, or eating non sentient beings.

What a heroic illithid MAY do (in my book), could be eating the brains of his enemies who were about to be killed anyways. His allies are still likly to voimit when they see it but it wouldnt be "extra" kills for food.

Your milage may vary. What your DM says is always right. Rule 0 and all that. I just feel it destroys the wickedness of evil illithids, undermines the tragedy of heoric illithids (if they exist), if they could just slap on a magic ring and be just fine.

Kris Strife
2009-03-16, 04:02 AM
Here's some questions for you:

What happens if a mindflayer kills off the ancestor of its species?

If mindflayers hate aboleths because aboleths didnt exist last time, (if I'm mistaken correct me) where did aboleths come from?

Why do mindflayers obey elder brains?

How do elder brains reproduce?

What happens if the elder brain gets a migraine?

Why the platypus?

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-16, 04:14 AM
Here's some questions for you:

What happens if a mindflayer kills off the ancestor of its species? Depends on the way in which the DnD universe has it's rules for time travel, but as far as I can conceive, they're in a different timeline.


If mindflayers hate aboleths because aboleths didnt exist last time, (if I'm mistaken correct me) both Aboleths and Illithids view other races as inferior, and both are struggling to acquire a worldspanning empire.


where did aboleths come from? aboleths are entities predating even the gods themselves, how long they have actually existed or where they come from is not known, but they used to rule the material plane.


Why the platypus? Because god got stoned

Pronounceable
2009-03-16, 04:44 AM
Why do mindflayers have to be evil?

They don't. You're just looking at them as a human. You think all those rats in labs around the world that get experimented upon and livestock getting slaughtered daily think humans aren't evil?

Sebastian
2009-03-16, 05:32 AM
Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

You eat a brain and cut a head, so two other head spring out, rinse and repeat. The problem is, it should not work, mind flayer need eat brains of intelligent creature to survive, try with two headed trolls.

And about the question, it is like with vampires, you could start as non evil but when you begin to see all those around you like cattle... well, I think that is a good textbook definition of evil, when you see other just as something that you can use.

Samb
2009-03-16, 06:03 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned that illithid in BoED. It was a redeemed illithid so it is possible for them to be good. How would they get over the eatingbrains issue? Well there are psionic ways to do this, there is a power that eliminates your need for food or water, if your ML is high enough it could work all day. The Elan have no need for food either and more or less live psionics. So yes it is possible for an illithid to be good by RAW.
{scrubbed}

lisiecki
2009-03-16, 06:28 AM
This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe.


Im not sure i aggre with that.
Beholder's live with the unending desire to kill everything that isn't that specific beholder.
Im pretty sure that trying to kill off all life that isnt specifically you, because it isnt specifically you, is chaotic, and evil

charl
2009-03-16, 06:44 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned that illithid in BoED. It was a redeemed illithid so it is possible for them to be good. How would they get over the eatingbrains issue? Well there are psionic ways to do this, there is a power that eliminates your need for food or water, if your ML is high enough it could work all day. The Elan have no need for food either and more or less live psionics. So yes it is possible for an illithid to be good by RAW.
{Scrubbed}

The difference is that Illithids don't kill because they inherently enjoy killing. They have to eat, and act no different from how a human hunter acts towards his prey. Alignment is clearly subjective.
However, that's not a bad thing. That's just the way DnD works.

Samb
2009-03-16, 07:13 AM
The difference is that Illithids don't kill because they inherently enjoy killing. They have to eat, and act no different from how a human hunter acts towards his prey. Alignment is clearly subjective.
However, that's not a bad thing. That's just the way DnD works.

Because they don't need to eat brains of sentiant being to survive. They could do what I said (the part you didn't read?). And yes, they do enjoy eating brains, the more self aware the better.

Khanderas
2009-03-16, 07:38 AM
Because they don't need to eat brains of sentiant being to survive. They could do what I said (the part you didn't read?). And yes, they do enjoy eating brains, the more self aware the better.
I have not read BoED and I would like to know how that one Illithid solves his problem with food.
He just said, "hey, eating sentient brains isnt nice, so ill just switch to veggies" ? Or was there a price to pay, loss of power (psionically so), magic item, gift of the gods or other obstacle / means to overcome ?

Because anyone can write a module with a paladin succubus, heroic illithid, philantrophic bugbear noble house, killer gazebos, light loving ranger drow or evil solars.
No offense. But saying one illithid made the switch in one book doesn't mean every member of that race can or should.

KillianHawkeye
2009-03-16, 07:38 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned that illithid in BoED. It was a redeemed illithid so it is possible for them to be good.

You beat me to it! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Anyway, that particular mindflayer is probably in the same situation as the Succubus Paladin. In other words, it's basically one of a kind, and there's not really any way to grow that Good individual into a whole group or society based on Good.

As far as how it eats, limiting itself to feeding on the most vile and evil of creatures it can find is probably good enough as far as BoED is concerned. And does a metric ton of good deeds to stay well ahead of the curve. And probably whips himself like the albino from The DaVinci Code. :smalltongue:

Shades of Gray
2009-03-16, 07:42 AM
Well, I don't see how's that Lawful Good. It'd be good, only if Hydra allowed it, but since it has Int 2, that's torture. Not to mention Hydras actually don't have Regeneration but Fast Healing, so they don't regrow brains once they're eaten.

It was a lernean hydra, template from Savage Species. They regrow heads. They were LG in other ways, they helped the nearby town etc. And the hydra was tamed or had some sort of spell to make it feel no pain or something from BoED.

Khanderas
2009-03-16, 08:08 AM
It was a lernean hydra, template from Savage Species. They regrow heads. They were LG in other ways, they helped the nearby town etc. And the hydra was tamed or had some sort of spell to make it feel no pain or something from BoED.
Fine on that.
But don't illithids have to eat sentient brains? As I understand it, an 8 headed hydra isnt 8 creatures or have 8 wills. The brains in the heads are more proto-brains that handle vision / hearing of that head before sending that information to one central mind. And even that is not something I would call sentient.
And as mentioned the brain is mostly fat. Ordinary normal fat. If there is no requirement to sentience, why not just have a liposuction buissness for illithidkind ?

lisiecki
2009-03-16, 09:03 AM
The difference is that Illithids don't kill because they inherently enjoy killing. They have to eat, and act no different from how a human hunter acts towards his prey. Alignment is clearly subjective.
However, that's not a bad thing. That's just the way DnD works.


No, they don't kill because they inherently enjoy killing.
They kill to eat the brains of self aware creatures, and they enjoy eating those brains.


It was a lernean hydra, template from Savage Species. They regrow heads. They were LG in other ways, they helped the nearby town etc. And the hydra was tamed or had some sort of spell to make it feel no pain or something from BoED.

So, Aside for the captivity, enslavement and mind control of a self aware creature, as well as harvesting its brain to dine upon, they were good guys?

RebelRogue
2009-03-16, 09:06 AM
If I remember correctly, The Illithids evolve in the semi near future. Then they build their empire. Then they travel back in time to escape the revolution. From there it could be that they replace the abberation that would evolve into them. If this is the case then they never evolved they just are.
Thank you, Robert Heinlein :smallbiggrin:


This is related to one of my fundamental objections to the alignment system: It makes a necessarily human centric universe
The universe is human-centric, as most PCs will be humans or at least races with a somewhat human mindset (and ultimately you'd have to at some level since players are still human). If an alignment system is to exist at all, I fail to see how else you'd implement it.

However, in this light, the illithids are classified as Evil because that's what their actions corresponds to in terms on normal human behaviour and conduct. The existence of singular, Good-aligned mindflayers is a theoretical possibilty, but anyone who's read the Lords of Madness sourcebooks will probably agree that chances are extremely slim! The paladin from BoED is problematic, since it contradicts some of the stuff in LoM (specifically, it has a gender).

Thajocoth
2009-03-16, 09:33 AM
Illithids (Mind Flayers) only require brains if they stick with the Elder Brain. It's the Elder Brain that's directly evil, not them. They're passively evil for sticking with the Elder Brain. If they leave the Elder Brain, they might still like brains, but they cease to require them. Also their skin gets all dry & cracked... They are then known as an Illithilich (Alhoon). At least, reading whatever I could find on Illithids has brought me to this conclusion...

In my campaign, there will actually be a colony of Illithiliches that the party can encounter who are trying to oppose the Elder Brain, who still has a bunch of Mind Flayers as well... (And Beholders, Foulspawn, and all sorts of Aberrant creatures... They're actually holding open a portal between the Far Realm and the Shadowfell.) Though, this isn't for quite a while...

The Neoclassic
2009-03-16, 09:36 AM
First off, who here is saying that most mindflayers aren't evil? Nobody's raising their hand? Thank you. Several people are getting huffy because they think people are saying that eating the brains of live, sentinent creatures is perfectly fine. As far as I can tell, absolutely no one is saying that. I should have clarified it better in the first post, but the question is why must all mindflayers be inherently evil, not why is the behavior of most mindflayers evil?


Because they don't need to eat brains of sentiant being to survive. And yes, they do enjoy eating brains, the more self aware the better.

Yes, of course that's evil. No one is arguing that. However, what about the given hydra example? No one has cited yet where it states mindflayers need to eat the brains of intelligent creatures; it sounds like they could survive (less tastily, but get by) on the brains of unintelligent or less intelligent creatures.


No not only due to the elder brain, they NEED to eat them brains, also they are born out of a ritual involving the replacement of the nerve system of a helpless sentient being while it is still alive, feeling as it's brain is slowly eaten away by a tadpole that will soon take over it's body.

If they never choose to reproduce themselves, can they be counted as evil for their entire lives solely on the basis of how they were born? A child could be conceived from rape, a horrific act, but that doesn't place any blame upon the child. They had no control over it. Similarly, the baby mindflayer tadpole isn't sentient or aware of what it's doing, I'm fairly sure.


Would you starve yourself to death just so squids could live?
That is what a good Mind flayer would be doing, we are just as alien to them as squids are to us.

Well, we have other options that don't involve killing animals (though we are still in some sense "killing" plants when we eat them). It's healthiest for humans to be omnivores and consume animals as well as plants, and that's the default position, but one could survive as a vegan. Is there any comparable option for mindflayers? Perhaps the Monster Manual is spreading propaganda by refusing to acknowledge other possible, but less optimal/enjoyable, means of nourishment. :smallwink:

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that I, at least, am not taking this 100% seriously. I'm not being glib, but it's not really an entirely serious matter, especially since so much of it would really be up to one's setting and take on mindflayers (unless you really like all the stuff in splatbooks, which of course addresses the matter more in depth it sounds, from what people have said).

Neithan
2009-03-16, 09:43 AM
If eating brains for survival is evil may be argueable.

But even without that, mind flayers are megalomanic and power hungry despotes, who enslave thousands of people with mind control, just because it's convinient for them. They have no compassion for anything and if they meet a creature they can't charm or knock out, they send swarms of their mind controlled slaves to run into it's claws or blades. And slaves who don't work well are given to other slaves to eat.
They care only for themselves and use other people as they like. That's enough evil, even without eating any brains.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-16, 10:00 AM
If they never choose to reproduce themselves, can they be counted as evil for their entire lives solely on the basis of how they were born? A child could be conceived from rape, a horrific act, but that doesn't place any blame upon the child. They had no control over it. Similarly, the baby mindflayer tadpole isn't sentient or aware of what it's doing, I'm fairly sure.

I think you're still thinking about it in human terms. It's pretty unlikely that the particular Illithid who spawned that particular larva would be the one to implant it in a host, since all the larva of the community go into the Elder Brain's pool for 10 years and if it survives it then get gets to be implanted. So just by putting them in the tank you're accepting the system and its results.

If you don't put them in the tank the Elder Brain will kill you, and if somehow it doesn't you still have a bunch of little squid-thingies crawling around eating each other and, if they eat an intelligent creature will turn into a Neothelid, a horrible monstrous worm that only thinks of eating (this seems to be because they have to eat or be eaten right from the beginning as larva if they're not fed in the Elder Brain's tank).

So the only option is to kill your spawn. Oh but they're helpless babies so that's evil! :smalltongue:

Samb
2009-03-16, 10:35 AM
I have not read BoED and I would like to know how that one Illithid solves his problem with food.
He just said, "hey, eating sentient brains isnt nice, so ill just switch to veggies" ? Or was there a price to pay, loss of power (psionically so), magic item, gift of the gods or other obstacle / means to overcome ?

Because anyone can write a module with a paladin succubus, heroic illithid, philantrophic bugbear noble house, killer gazebos, light loving ranger drow or evil solars.
No offense. But saying one illithid made the switch in one book doesn't mean every member of that race can or should.

The OP asked if the illithids' inherient evil could be overcome. And the answer is yes. It is very rare but possilbe based on the BoED. Everything about illithids is evil from how they were born, their mindset, the way they feed. But one such illithid was able to put aside it's nature and become exalted. IIRC it became a monk which would make it not need food, but being powerful psionic creatures they could use that power that does away with food at all.

Why would they want to change in the first place is not the debate here. The debate is if they can.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 11:02 AM
Im not sure i aggre with that.
Beholder's live with the unending desire to kill everything that isn't that specific beholder.
Im pretty sure that trying to kill off all life that isnt specifically you, because it isnt specifically you, is chaotic, and evil

It is chaotic and evil by any reasonable definition. But that undermines the otherness of such beings to make that a moral absolute.


Thank you, Robert Heinlein :smallbiggrin:


The universe is human-centric, as most PCs will be humans or at least races with a somewhat human mindset (and ultimately you'd have to at some level since players are still human). If an alignment system is to exist at all, I fail to see how else you'd implement it.


Well, to be blunt, I wouldn't. Or if I did, I'd make it have very minimal mechanical effects. Elder horrors and such just don't make much sense in a universe with mechanical alignments.

d13
2009-03-16, 11:40 AM
Their parents didn't giv'em 'nuff love? xD

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-16, 01:03 PM
IIRC it became a monk which would make it not need food, but being powerful psionic creatures they could use that power that does away with food at all.
this idea on using psionic/magic abilities to negate basic needs really bugs me, as although fine for the heroes of the game (reaching a stage where one can go without food would be quite the accomplishment), simply having a cleric prepare 'create food and water' can lead to entire cities being nourished on a central religion, not to mention the other potentially world-changing (from our perspective) effects low-level magic can have.
- considering their level, mindflayers can all easily use sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sustenance.htm) each day, and thus the whole concept of eating/drinking is completely negated.

Other than this technical problem, the reasons for the 'evil' mindset of Mindflayers have already been pretty well covered, through their:
pre-destination of creating a large empire (which apparantly will eventually come up against an enemy they cannot defeat, leading to their jump back in time and thus entry into the world today),
their unusual procreation methods (from memory, the mind flayers were created/sired/evolved from a race/people unknown to the rest of the world, and upon their ascendance, the mindflayers destroyed this group entirely, with only traces of their existance left as a clue.. which is how such beings can come to pass),
and their id-based psyche, which turns such vast intelligence into a self-serving megalomaniac plan to enslave and expand.

hamishspence
2009-03-16, 01:22 PM
In Underdark (before LoM's "Must eat at least 1 sentient brain every couple of months" requirement) there was a LN mind flayer who, having lost 3 tentacles, couldn't use that attack, and had had "a change of heart, and a change of diet"

So, even in absence of BoED, there are non-evil mind flayers.

Maybe LoM invalidates them, but maybe the brain requirement is not as severe as LoM makes it out to be.

(the Underdark version of the half-illithid template is much more versatile than the Fiend Folio version- can be applied to a wider range of creatures)

Dixieboy
2009-03-16, 01:31 PM
Why do mindflayers obey elder brains? because it's 100+ elder illithids


How do elder brains reproduce? Brain golems, hur hur hur, (They actually do make brain golems though :smalleek:)
When enough illithids gather i expect them to just form, since Elder brains are formed from the brains of dead illithids


What happens if the elder brain gets a migraine?Platypus shaped brain golems :smalleek:


Why the platypus?
Because it's awesome?

Aindriahhn
2009-03-16, 02:47 PM
It takes around a half a day to die from the process. :smallconfused:

The aberations didn't evolve per se. All aberations came from the far realm, and do not fit into any ecological niche.

Brain's don't feel pain. Seems like a good method of painless execution.

Otherwise, though, I'm fairly certain there are psionic feats or classes that essentially turn you into a mind flayer.

RebelRogue
2009-03-16, 02:52 PM
Actually, IIRC illithids do need to eat more "normal" stuff apart from brains (according to LoM they eat som gross paste consisting of certain nutrients or something). Magic items like a ring of sustenance would suppress the need to eat this stuff, but probably not the brain-eating. As I envision it, this process is akin to the role of sleep for humans: if you go on without it, it will kill you, even if yuo're properly fed!

Samb
2009-03-16, 02:57 PM
High levels in monk, sustenace, or even taking a vow of poverty can make you go without food. Most illithid are not psions dispite their popular belief, most just have racial levels and just use their psi-like abilities. Granted that sustanence is only a level 2 power an illithid could pickit up by lvl 3, but I'm guessing brains just taste better and casting sustanence everyday is a hassle.

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-16, 03:06 PM
High levels in monk, sustenace, or even taking a vow of poverty can make you go without food. Most illithid are not psions dispite their popular belief, most just have racial levels and just use their psi-like abilities. Granted that sustanence is only a level 2 power an illithid could pickit up by lvl 3, but I'm guessing brains just taste better and casting sustanence everyday is a hassle.

Though memory may be lax, i was basing this on the psionics book, where mindflayers are shown with levels in psion (making full use of their heritage, as opposed to the monster manual version which uses spell-like abilities which may or may not be classed as psionics, i don't recall exactly).

but following this train of thought, it would be rather unfair to say that because mindflayers dont go through such work to avoid eating brains, that they must be evil - their simply doing what is required to survive (this is purely based on the brain eating aspect ofcourse, not the numerous other reasons why their evil)

alchemyprime
2009-03-16, 03:13 PM
I looked into the idea of a good mind flayer. Only one class allowed for him to eat sentient brains: paladin. How?

1. Smite evil. Obviously meant for evil to die. So I had this illithid go around tying his tentacles together with a pink ribbon and with a huge helmet hiding his face. (I use his as a pronoun because it just gets typed quicker than her for me.)

So he goes around, fighting evil, and when a truly vile person comes along he goes out of his way to give them a "chance at redemption". If they do not repent, he sucks out their brain to take their sins upon himself.

Then he repents for his evil nature.

As for how he was naturally evil: a mysterious god of light protects him from sunlight. And talks to him in his sleep.

Hes the illithid version of a sociopath!

GoC
2009-03-16, 03:51 PM
Because you eat it while it's alive?

Point of order.
Apparently most predators do this to an extent, they just cut those segments from the nature shows.

AslanCross
2009-03-16, 04:38 PM
Here's some questions for you:

What happens if a mindflayer kills off the ancestor of its species?
TIME PARADOX!


If mindflayers hate aboleths because aboleths didnt exist last time, (if I'm mistaken correct me) where did aboleths come from?
Aboleths and Illithids are described in LoM as "cosmic bookends." Aboleths come from a forgotten time, while Illithids come from the far future, close to the end of all existence.

They don't really hate each other, but they do fear each other greatly.
The aboleths have very long racial memories (each child inherits all the memories of its parent), and remember when everything came into existence. However, they don't remember illithids. They just aren't there. That creeps them out big time.

Illithids respect the ability of the aboleths to exist for so long without needing anyone else. There's also their penchant for building empires.


Why do mindflayers obey elder brains?
Elder Brains have a field of telepathy that is almost completely inescapable without high level magic or drastic means---both of which are either beyond the means of your average illithid, or just unthinkable. (Like going in dead and being resurrected.) Once the Elder Brain detects you and reads your thoughts (it always does), it can either send an inquisition of mind flayers to kill and eat you, or it can turn you into a grease spot on its own. (It is a 20th level psion.)

Also, LoM describes illithids as sort of enjoying the constant psychic buzz that the Elder Brain gives out, so they generally would not want to go far from it. In fact, there's an item that's basically a tiny lump of brain tissue that gives off a psychic buzz. All it does is make illithids feel comfortable when away from the Elder Brain.


How do elder brains reproduce?

LoM's copout answer was "we don't know." All extant Elder Brains are ancient beyond belief and won't tell how they came to be.
In Lost Empires of Faerun, however, the founder of the Netheril empire was able to enlist several mind flayer liches as his students. Eventually he killed them and merged their brains with his own to turn himself into an Elder Brain.

However, my theory is that the Elder Brains were created at the zenith of the Illithid empire and masterminded the jumps back into the past. As such, they have technically existed for probably hundreds of thousands of years. The process needed to merge illithids into an Elder Brain might have been lost already, so this means that there is a finite number of Elder Brains in the multiverse.

The problem is, their empire once spanned the multiverse, meaning there may be billions of them out there somewhere.


What happens if the elder brain gets a migraine?

It ego whips the nearest sentient humanoid to feel a bit nicer. Or it may binge on illithid tadpoles.


Why the platypus?
42.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 04:58 PM
What happens if a mindflayer kills off the ancestor of its species?
The universe explodes at all points in time simultaneously. Since the in-game universe likely exists, this has not and will never happen, and if the in-game universe does not exist, that only raises further questions.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-16, 05:00 PM
The universe explodes at all points in time simultaneously. Since the in-game universe likely exists, this has not and will never happen, and if the in-game universe does not exist, that only raises further questions.

Yeah, like now we have proven the game does not exist, who the hell ate the last goddamn pizza slice?

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-16, 05:09 PM
What happens if a mindflayer kills off the ancestor of its species?



from what i remember the LoM saying, the ancestor of the species as we know it today was created by some other group (race, species, ancestor, who knows). the mind flayers then went around wiping out this group, with only a handful of relics acting as proof of their existence...

my interpretation of this, is that the illithids still tadpoles before this (and there is an illithid creature in the LoM which is basically a tadpole that has fed on rats and similair vermin, and so became quite a weak little, though the neolithid is an example of what they would otherwise eventaully become), and some group decided to see what would happen if they put one inside a humanoid...

mind flayers from this point are being created, but with their intelligence and psionic abilities, decide that they should be in charge, begin the destruction of their masters, and history as the LoM says, begins.

hamishspence
2009-03-16, 05:13 PM
LoM doesn't actually say much besides "they came from the future"

Illithid tadpole (that escaped from pool and grows up to be neothilid) is in Complete Psionic.

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-16, 05:52 PM
my apolagies then, must be mixing up books pretty bad (been out of the D&D enviroment for a couple of years now)

RebelRogue
2009-03-16, 06:12 PM
Aboleths and Illithids are described in LoM as "cosmic bookends." Aboleths come from a forgotten time, while Illithids come from the far future, close to the end of all existence.

They don't really hate each other, but they do fear each other greatly.
The aboleths have very long racial memories (each child inherits all the memories of its parent), and remember when everything came into existence. However, they don't remember illithids. They just aren't there. That creeps them out big time.
Think of how alien, strange and utterly incomprehensible the average human will view an aboleth or an illithid. Take those emotions and multiply them by ten: that's the feelings these two species invoke in each other! That's the way I think of it anyway...

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-16, 06:15 PM
So, this thread has got me thinking about, well, a lot of unrelated junk mostly.

But it's also got me considering Mindflayer related Character Ideas and Plot Hooks/Campaigns.

So, here are some things that have struck me throughout this debate.

1) Elder Brains are unquestionably and significantly evil. It's quite possible that they are more significantly evil, even in the opinions of those who have posted condeming the Illithids in general. They are Big Bad Brains.

2) Illithids may not necessarily, depending on interpretations of wording, and which splat-books you consider canon, need to eat sentient brains to live. Depending on what you listen to, they may not even need to eat brains!

3) They are 'wrong' on a cosmic level. Either they originate in the Far Realm, the Far Future, or are in some other way just damn wrong. (In addition, they freak the Aboleth's out on account of being the one creature they don't remember 'starting'. They just appeared, fully formed, as if from no-where.)

4) Illithids reproduce via their (original?) Larval form. The Larvae are left in the Elder Brain's Briny Bath for 10 entire years, and if they are one of the (probably few) who are not eaten by the elder brain then they are implanted in a sentient creature, preferably humanoid. If the 'Far Realm' origin is the true one, likely this form is carried over from their previous, insane-outside-realm origin.

5) Elder Brains completely and utterly dominate Illithid society. They enforce strict rules of conduct and whatever that create the 'classic' mindflayer society. They also have no compunction about lying to their illithid underlings. (Illithid's are unaware that once 'joined' with the Elder Brain, their personality DOES NOT continue. The Elder Brains jealously guard this secret, for quite obvious reasons).

6) Illithids do not go against the Elder Brain very often, if at all. Alhoon's (Illithid Liches) are about the only case of this. This is possibly due to the Elder Brain's psionic aura/dominance. The Illithid are so used to this ever-present psychic presence, or 'buzz', that when they have to be away from it, there exist items to reproduce the same sensation!

7) Illithids express a very limited range of emotions, but very strongly. However, despite being essentially rage-filled engines of spite and loathing, they have a natural tendancy to work together.

8) Depending on your sources, the Illithids once ruled a Vast multi-planar Empire. They were successful enough as a society to not only conquer a planet, but many planets across the entire multiverse. Though impressively enduring, at some point, something went wrong. Perhaps the Githyanki/Githerazi rebelion? Perhaps something that allowed the rebellion...


And all of this is just getting me thinking, suggesting things and Ideas that aren't even fully formed yet, but here's some;
(Spoilered for length)

Elder Brains do not feel right. They just don't. They're an Iconic part of Mindflayer society, but they just don't feel like they are entirely playing for the same team.
The illithid tadpoles - Ten years in the Elder Brains tank? That's a long time. Frankly, suspiciously long. I cannot believe that they are left there purely because of how defended the location is. I do not believe that the Brain is looking out for them. It snacks on them at will! So what else could be the reason? The only one that makes sense to me, for a psionic being of 'Godlike' Intelligence, is that it is indoctrinating them, psionically, over a long period of time so that it is both subtle and enduring.
So, why would it do this, if it is merely the collective conciousness of Illithid Ancestors? It just feels wrong.

Speaking of wrong, is it only me that has difficulty with the idea that the Elder Brains are a natural part of the Illithid life-cycle? I'd agree that's a view that the Brains themselves would no doubt hope the illithid held, but i'm not convinced. The Illithid, originally, were some kind of far realm creature that started in something analgous to their larval form. Perhaps they were essentially parasitic, perhaps not. There is still a kind of logic there. They live, quite probably hunt, (which would fit on some level with their essentially predatory mindset, and their tendancy to co-operate). They live, they thrive, and then? Everything dies. But why would a creature that see's brains as a source of Food, create an 'ancestor god' of sorts that is, itself, essentially a giant foodstuff? it doesn't fit. I propose that the Elder Brain must have been a later development. A matter for civilised times in their development, not the impossible primal past.

And Furthermore, I propose that they were one of two possible things.

First option;
At the height of their eternal empire of the planes, Illithid society must have gotten pretty damned decadent. I see the idea of Powerful Illithid 'Emperors', having conquered pretty much everything and everyone they could find, as then turning their attention to that last enemy, the one that all things must face. Death. The 'Elder Brain', would at it's core, be an attempt to cheat Death. A way for those few, ancient evils, to exist, and rule on till the end of time. just so long as their subjects can be convinced to continue feeding them with what they require.
To hold on to their position of god-kings of the Illithids, they make themselves part of the life-cycle of the Illithids, they make themselves ancestor gods, they deify themselves and make life without them unthinkable. Then, just to make sure? They literally crawl inside the brain of every new-spawned Illithid and quite literally worm out any possible hint or desire to even consider that possibility.

They have two or three main problems. Firstly, Illithids are powerful, essentially arrogant creatures. They sound on so many levels like the kind of 'Magnificent Bastard' types that they should be staging coup-de-etat's every couple of years. If the Elder Brain's Subjects ever really found out the unspeakable truth, their situation would become very...very dangerous.

Secondly, they are not Liches. They aren't even Undead. They can, if cared for properly, live forever. But they are bodiless monstrosities, soft, vulnerable. They need constant care and endlessly vigilant protection. A creature, no matter how powerful, that doesn't even have skin, is going to get a bit paranoid, really, don't you think? It would help make sense of the Elder Brain's Aversion to Illithid Liches, perhaps.

If something did go wrong with Mindflayer Society, wouldn't it make sense that the emergence of these self-proclaimed 'god kings' could have been the cause? An initial uprising of Illithids, or even just the inevitable lapses of quality of judgement that would arise from a lack of fresh blood, fresh ideas, at the head of their empire.
In the instability that followed, it would make any slave-uprising that much more likely both to happen, and to succeed.

The Second Option for their origin is that the Elder Brains come from an external source.
They are not, perhaps, Illithid in nature at all.
Think about it for a moment. They certainly do not act like they are part of Illithid Society. They do not, really, act like they have Illithid wellbeing as their main concern. They act, rather, like they are either the Slave-masters to the Illithid, or the Cookoo children of. They dominate, they stifle and rule absolutely, with a tenuous thread of lies and misdirection as their only protection.

What cosmic horror would be capable of infiltrating and subverting Illithid Society at it's height, so completely? So Utterly? it's an intruiging question, you've got to admit. Like the previous possibility, this event would make a perfectly disruptive calamity in the Mindflayer Empire to destablise it enough for the Rebelion to succeed.

So, Character Concept, and/or Adventure Hooks?
Imagine the consequences of revealing either of the above possibilities, (or even those few facts as we know are definate already) to Mindflayer Society. I do not see the 'masters of the universe' reacting very well to the idea that, far from joining an ancestral hive-mind with their memory and personality in tact, they essentially merely become food, with any kind of decorum or philosophical moderation.

Imagine, perhaps, that the revelation is given to a mindflayer (Or, for instant mindflayer adventuring party, a mindflayer inquisition...) whilst on an errand for their elder-brain outside of it's influence. Just imagine, for a moment.

I cannot see them reaching any decision other than for the pressing and complete need to return to their lair, set the Elder Brain's plans to the torch and feast on it's treacherous (Yet delicious!) brainy mass. Cue a campaign of mindflayer-on-mindflayer guerrilla terrorism, sedition, and outright assault culminating in them storming their own lair, kicking their own doors down, and eating their own hideous god.

Food for thought.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-16, 06:31 PM
Tiki Snakes: I don't have anything very brilliant to say in response to any of your points, but I'd like to applaud your detailed, thorough, and immensely interesting response to the question! It's just fantastic and I think it covers a lot of what I'd need to think about if I want to include any nonevil mindflayers in a game (or rationalize why they all must be evil)! :smallsmile:

Samb
2009-03-16, 06:35 PM
Though memory may be lax, i was basing this on the psionics book, where mindflayers are shown with levels in psion (making full use of their heritage, as opposed to the monster manual version which uses spell-like abilities which may or may not be classed as psionics, i don't recall exactly).

but following this train of thought, it would be rather unfair to say that because mindflayers dont go through such work to avoid eating brains, that they must be evil - their simply doing what is required to survive (this is purely based on the brain eating aspect ofcourse, not the numerous other reasons why their evil)
XPH lists illithid as psionic subtype and spell like abilities are now psi-like. I don't remember if it was LoM or XPH that stated that most don't take class levels but I could look that up. Savage species had a illithid savant/shadow dancer, WoL had a illithid as a creature of legacy. Of course there is BoED and she was an exalted monk. But it is implied that classes are the exception rather than the norm.

Humans, who are not as psionically gifted as the illithid, have achieved immortality and became Elan. Elans basically cannibalize their own psionic energy to do away with the need for food altogether. It is hard to see how illithid could not do the same.
Many serial killers had rough childhoods but are we to say: "he had a rough childhood, it not his fault"? No, we put them in jail to rot. Many people have abusive parents and a good number of them go "through such work" to make sure they don't fall under their parents influence.

Being a good guy takes a lot of work, which is why it is admirable. Being evil is liberating and easy, and will make you food for an elder brain or Orcus'/Amodeus' bitch.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-16, 06:49 PM
Tiki Snakes makes some interesting and excellent (albeit without support) points. This is backed up nearly entirely by the presence of the Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm): a larva that is left alone for too long turns into a giant grotesque superpsionic worm, not an elder brain or any other sort of wtf-aberration.

Just look at that thing. What the hell.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33558.jpg

At least it looks like it could be related to illithids. I mean, in all seriousness, how do you go from "humanoid with an octopus for a head" to "giant ball of gray matter"?

As such, I'm inclined to go with the "elder brains are not actually illithids" theorem.

I'm also going to question why we're still discussing the morality of a race of sentient creatures that eat the brains of the living for sustenance and reproduce through the willful act of destroying another creature in a slow and excruciating fashion.


Humans, who are not as psionically gifted as the illithid, have achieved immortality and became Elan. Elans basically cannibalize their own psionic energy to do away with the need for food altogether. It is hard to see how illithid could not do the same.

To that point, however, an elan is (a) no longer human; and (b) not an illithid. Illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves on their psychic energy: if they did, it would be an ability of theirs. However, since elans specifically have a racial power that lets them do just that, they can. The absence of a rule or a fluff reference means, "No, it doesn't work that way," not, "It might work that way." Certainly, you can change it, and it would most definitely make sens for that to be the case here, but as-is illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves merely on their psionic powers.

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-16, 06:57 PM
@ Samb
it was either the LoM or XPH that had levels in psion as core for mind flayers, though i can't tell you which one (probably XPH, all things considered). as far as i remember, it was "casts as a 7th level" or something along those lines, which would follow the same as other creatures which can cast spells equal to a level x wizard/sorceror.

on the consumption of brains, from what i recall, the bland, tasteless porridge which mindflayers consume constitute the nutrients their body needs, while the residue psychic/sentient matter that is present in the brain nourishes the mind flayer (who's unusual creation via ceremorphisis means that they do not create said matter themselves, and thus need to consume it from others).

on the comparison to killers and such who have their actions explained through the early period of life, i was instead trying to compare them to the number of creatures (who, sadly i cannot name any thereof, though when my housemate who studies zoo-oligy returns, i can get a few names), that incapacitate/deal significant harm to their prey upon feeding. like the spider, which effectively sucks the blood out of it's victim, the mind flayer is simply taking what it needs, and although in no way nice, this is necessary for said creature to survive (as opposed to serial killers, who do so for personal reasons - not as a primal need to continue living).

@ tiki snakes
without trying to poke any holes in your ideas, which would make very good campaign material (cue copy and paste :smallwink:), the tadpoles take some time to develop to the point where they can 'infect' a humanoid victim (and as they live longer, they develop into what is eventually a neolithid). interesting note, would be that a tadpole surviving the elder brain attempting to eat it, is of equal challenge rating for it to reach level 15, the effective level of the mind flayer (i may be wrong on details, but if someone is willing to do the math, this should be correct), which can go some way to explaining how they begin so strong.

concerning the illithid empire/time space continium... from what i remember, at the end of 'time', there is a challenge to the mind flayers that cannot be beaten, something that wiping out illithid colony after colony. in desperation, the surviving few mass-sacrifice elder brains to create a vortex/time travel worm hold/thing that pulls the last mind flayers back in time. the object of this being to set up an empire again (though with a head start, as they came back before the first empire is established), and prepare to fight this threat for round 2, where they will be better established and prepared.
this can offer something of an arch-nemesis to your designs, a shadowy enemy that can drive the illithids in your ideas,
and further gives you a little more insight into the use of elder brains, as they were willing to sacrifice some of their own to save the race (making their position over the mind flayers more important?), or following the pre-established line that it is they who are planning for this new empire (having the knowledge of the previous one), and that the mind flayers themselves are merely working to aid in this task

EDIT: this is simply an addition to add comments concerning Fax Celestis's post.

there is a work somewhere referring to neolithids being hunted by special mind flayer groups, which may refer to:
them trying to hide their 'normal' evolutionary pattern from the rest of the world
the work of the elder brain to keep 'control' over it's underlings
the origins of the mind flayer in general.

either way, the elder brain is something different to the general make-up of the mind flayer, probably in the same way that the mind flayer is different to the make-up of the tadpole's evolution... evidence of a purposeful manipulation to create what they are now?

chiasaur11
2009-03-16, 07:07 PM
The universe explodes at all points in time simultaneously. Since the in-game universe likely exists, this has not and will never happen, and if the in-game universe does not exist, that only raises further questions.

I see it as a bunch of rogues and kobolds floating in space.

(You know, that quote is just begging to be read in the voice of President Max.)

Samb
2009-03-16, 07:19 PM
To that point, however, an elan is (a) no longer human; and (b) not an illithid. Illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves on their psychic energy: if they did, it would be an ability of theirs. However, since elans specifically have a racial power that lets them do just that, they can. The absence of a rule or a fluff reference means, "No, it doesn't work that way," not, "It might work that way." Certainly, you can change it, and it would most definitely make sens for that to be the case here, but as-is illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves merely on their psionic powers.

Ah but I have pointed out numerous times the power sustenance costs only 3 power points a level 2 power and lasts for 24 hours. A psion of level 2 could get it. I don't have savage species in front of me but I am sure they have a decent pool of power point waiting to be used considering their high INT, surly 3 power points a day to not have to eat forever is worth it.

Just to stay in canon, Strom Wakeman became an illithid and never fed on any brains. The exalted redeemed illithid also got around this requirement. So it is not "just fluff".


On another note: illithids and the Gith races are one of the best elements/villains in D&D why would you ever want them to be good in the first place?
Check out this link for more cool Gith and illithid info.
http://www.planewalker.com/sections/rrakkma-legacy-zerthimon

Fax Celestis
2009-03-16, 07:25 PM
Ah but I have pointed out numerous times the power sustenance costs only 3 power points a level 2 power and lasts for 24 hours. A psion of level 2 could get it. I don't have savage species in front of me but I am sure they have a decent pool of power point waiting to be used considering their high INT, surly 3 power points a day to not have to eat forever is worth it.

It does only cost three power points...for an elan. Elans have a special ability that lets them and them alone sustain themselves without food. It is as much a racial feature of being an elan as having a prehensile tail is of being a chimpanzee. I am not a chimpanzee, so I do not have a prehensile tail; similarly, illthids are not elans and therefore cannot sustain themselves on raw psychic energy.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 07:26 PM
Tiki Snakes, something that supports your hypotheses about the Elder Brains:

According to Lords of Madness the illithids see it as a both a right and a duty to join with an Elder Brain after death, believing that their consciousness will merge with the Elder Brain. However, according to LoM it is a closely guarded secret of the Elder Brains that this doesn't happen. The Elder Brains have access to the memories of the merged mindflayers but their minds do not join it.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-16, 07:40 PM
It is as much a racial feature of being an elan as having a prehensile tail is of being a chimpanzee. I am not a chimpanzee, so I do not have a prehensile tail;

Maybe I'm missing something, but Chimpanzees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzees) don't have prehensile tails....

Samb
2009-03-16, 07:43 PM
It does only cost three power points...for an elan. Elans have a special ability that lets them and them alone sustain themselves without food. It is as much a racial feature of being an elan as having a prehensile tail is of being a chimpanzee. I am not a chimpanzee, so I do not have a prehensile tail; similarly, illthids are not elans and therefore cannot sustain themselves on raw psychic energy.
Umm......no
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sustenance
Elan have this on all the time for free, a psiwarrior or psion can have this at 3 PP per day. Go look at SRD or pick up a XPH and see for yourself.

For someone who is so blatantly wrong your condescending attitude is uncalled for.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 07:51 PM
Umm......no
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sustenance
Elan have this on all the time for free, a psiwarrior or psion can have this at 3 PP per day. Go look at SRD or pick up a XPH and see for yourself.

For someone who is so blatantly wrong your condescending attitude is uncalled for.

# Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.
You're also wrong, so don't get ahead of yourself. An Elan still needs to pay, he just gets a discount.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-16, 07:52 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but Chimpanzees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzees) don't have prehensile tails....

I'm an English major, you do the math. :smalltongue:


Umm......no
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sustenance
Elan have this on all the time for free, a psiwarrior or psion can have this at 3 PP per day. Go look at SRD or pick up a XPH and see for yourself.

...that is still not the same thing. An illithid can sustain themselves with psionics with the correct training and will, but it's not part of being an illithid. By default, illthids eat brains for sustenance, and prefer the flavor of more intelligent creatures.

Even if an illithid somehow makes it to adulthood without eating a single brain through some twisted capacity for intermediate psionics in infancy, that still does not change the fact that it is a creature that was born into life by eating the brains out of an already-living, intelligent creature.

The first thing a larva does to become a full-fledged illithid is subvert and destroy another sentient in a slow and painful fashion being for the express purpose of self-advancement and a thirst for power, taking what was once a living being and reducing it to a simple husk before then violently transforming it into what we know as an illithid. That is an unquestionably evil act, no matter how you slice it.

As such, every illithid in existence is tainted with at least one act of a atrocity, which is generally more than enough to deny Exalted status at any point--even with atonement, the fact remains that the illithid only exists because it ate some poor sucker's brain and then stole his body.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 07:58 PM
I'm not sure Sustenance would help an illithid. Although there is contradictory fluff on this in some versions mindflayers need the residual psychic energy in the brains they consume. If so, sustenance arguably wouldn't help since it only creates what amounts to mundane food or water. (By similar logic all the undead with metabolic requirements for lifeforce couldn't use this either)

aarondirebear
2009-03-16, 07:58 PM
Hmm, what if there was a way to numb/eliminate the pain and the hydras did in fact have regeneration?

Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain.
They aren't torturing the Hydra, they're getting it off.

To respond to the OP: "Because they are! Don't question it."

aarondirebear
2009-03-16, 08:03 PM
I wonder how that evolved...

At least you dont feel any pain once it gets hungry!

It didn't, they are the spawn of Cthulhu and have therefore always been like that.

Of course, i don't treat ceremorphosis as canon...

Samb
2009-03-16, 08:14 PM
This whole thread was devoted to whether or not illithid can overcome its inherent evil. Their very way of life is evil, especially how they eat. Who really cares if they have to spend 1 point or 3 points a day, the fact is that they can do it and choice not to.

Could an illithid grow up not eating a brain? Strom Wakeman did by feeding of his own psionic power.

Even if it lead a typical illithid life, it could redeem itself and even become exalted. Redemption is the ultimate exalted act one could commit and for a creature as vile as the illithid all the more so.

I have listed BoED, and Strom Wakeman and provided other means that illithid could overcome the whole brain eating problem and yet all I hear is conjuncture. If you think I am wrong then provide to literature to back it up.

As for undead go they technically don't need to eat anything, it is the negative energy that complies them to suck life.

Also I never said illithids were not evil to the core, they are, but they don't always have to be.

Kris Strife
2009-03-16, 08:21 PM
Hm... I kind of want to do a Terminator style campaign with Ilithids... The PCs are the great to the Umpteenth power ancestors of what ever killed the Ilithids in the future so some crazy templated Illithid or Voidmind back to kill them.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-16, 08:21 PM
Could an illithid grow up not eating a brain? Strom Wakeman did by feeding of his own psionic power.
They cannot. A larvae that does not devour a brain to evolve into an illithid turns into a neothelid, as I linked before. Neothelids are insane, literally. If a larva wants to retain its personality and sanity, it must go through ceremorphosis and in doing so devour the brain of a living, sentient humanoid being.

Samb
2009-03-16, 08:29 PM
They cannot. A larvae that does not devour a brain to evolve into an illithid turns into a neothelid, as I linked before. Neothelids are insane, literally. If a larva wants to retain its personality and sanity, it must go through ceremorphosis and in doing so devour the brain of a living, sentient humanoid being.

Please google Strom Wakeman. He underwent ceremorphosis and became an illithid but sustained himself on his own psionic power (he was a psion prior to the change). He is what the illithid called the "nemesis", an illithid that retains his old memories and personality even after changing. Your link on neothelids, while educational was irrelevant to this discussion.

There was a thread on him a few days ago, you could prolly still find it.

Honestly we should just start a new thread on illithids and Giths, they are my favorite monsters by far.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-16, 08:33 PM
Please google Strom Wakeman. He underwent ceremorphosis and became an illithid but sustained himself on his own psionic power (he was a psion prior to the change). He is what the illithid called the "nemesis", an illithid that retains his old memories and personality even after changing. Your link on neothelids, while educational was irrelevant to this discussion.

I know who Strom Wakeman is. Just because he's a survivor doesn't make ceremorphosis suddenly into a good act: it's still violent and subversive.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 08:34 PM
Wakeman has nothing to do with this, because he's not an illithid larva and never was. He kept the larva suppressed, and was not mentally an illithid.

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 08:40 PM
Strom Wakeman isn't a true illithid. He's a human mind in an illithid body. He doesn't share their goals or any other aspects of being an illithid. Also, the process Strom used only had a fixed chance of working (40% I believe).

Samb
2009-03-16, 08:41 PM
Wakeman has nothing to do with this, because he's not an illithid larva and never was. He kept the larva suppressed, and was not mentally an illithid.
He had the body of a illithid and hence subject to all it urges. And how did he deal with them? I bolded it for you.


That was Strom Wakeman, author of the The Illithiad. In the 2e companion adventures for that tome, it was revealed that Wakeman had been turned into an illithid but had used a mixture of herbs and drugs to retain his own mind through ceremorphosis. He fed not on brains, but on ambient psychic energy [he had a psionic power that allowed him to go without eating]. Supposedly if he ever actually ate a brain, the illithid consciousness he was keeping suppressed would come to the fore, eliminating Wakeman.


So yes he was physically an illithid and hence wanted to eat brains, like all illithids, but didn't because he found a way out. And if your silly logic of lavarae not equal to illithid, then we need to start a thread on the morality of illithid larvae because clearly they are a different species.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-03-16, 08:45 PM
Not part of the debate per se but rather a funny distraction. The D&D MMO (should be ashamed for being called D&D, but mildly amusing for a short time) had a Feat retraining system. This system was giving a Dragonshard (Eberron based) to a good Mindflayer called Fred, and he could get you to "forget" an old feat to be able to retrain it.

So yes, a Mindflayer could set up a pretty decent business within a city. Lobotomy anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Samb
2009-03-16, 08:46 PM
Strom Wakeman isn't a true illithid. He's a human mind in an illithid body. He doesn't share their goals or any other aspects of being an illithid. Also, the process Strom used only had a fixed chance of working (40% I believe).
He had a human mind which made it easier to suppress the illithid mindset (you know like kidnapping, enslaving lesser races) but he still had physical urges of his host body (like thinking brains were tasty). Wakeman was basically suppressing the illithid side of his brain so to say that his mind was whole human is inaccurate also.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 08:48 PM
He had the body of a illithid and hence subject to all it urges.
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Urges would typically be in the mind, no? He wouldn't think of brains as tasty, delectable things that he wants to eat as many of as he can. He'd think of them as foul and disgusting, which is what let him resist to begin with.

monty
2009-03-16, 08:50 PM
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Urges would typically be in the mind, no? He wouldn't think of brains as tasty, delectable things that he wants to eat as many of as he can. He'd think of them as foul and disgusting, which is what let him resist to begin with.

Urges are generally chemical-based, so they would be independent of the mind (assuming the mind is independent of the brain, which is something we have to assume in D&D).

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 08:50 PM
It isn't at all clear mechanically what Strom was doing that allowed him to survive on the psionic energy. It might well be only possible because of his weird primarily human mind.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 08:53 PM
Campaign idea: Illithids from the future send themselves even further back in time to prevent the other races from forming. This would also negate every single debate in D&D, because there would be only one alignment, no Monks, etc.

aarondirebear
2009-03-16, 09:13 PM
Sigh... a friend and me came up with an idea...a solution...
But its Squicky.
Okay i am going to regret this but...

2 Headed troll with reasonable intelligence.
Give him Nipple clamps of exquisite pain.
Eart left brain...the troll is sexually satisfied and the mindflayer gets food.
Wait a day.
Eat right brain...the troll is sexually satisfied and the mindflayer gets food.
Repeat.

Swooper
2009-03-16, 10:12 PM
The really interesting question on the subject of Mind Flayers is: What the hell were they smoking when they came up with the Illithid Heritage feats!? :smallconfused:

No really. Illithids reproduce with ceremorphosis. So how can you have illithid blood without being illithid yourself?

monty
2009-03-16, 10:15 PM
So how can you have illithid blood without being illithid yourself?

A wizard did it.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-16, 10:21 PM
A wizard did it.

Is there anything it can't explain away? :smallwink:

monty
2009-03-16, 10:25 PM
Is there anything it can't explain away? :smallwink:

The origin of magic, I suppose.

Samb
2009-03-16, 10:31 PM
The really interesting question on the subject of Mind Flayers is: What the hell were they smoking when they came up with the Illithid Heritage feats!? :smallconfused:

No really. Illithids reproduce with ceremorphosis. So how can you have illithid blood without being illithid yourself?
Yeah this is a huge slip up on Bruce Cordell's part since he wrote both books and the fact that he is usually very consistent. I have yet to hear an explanation. We had a flayerspawn psychic in my party and my DM explained it as: You are doing what Wakeman did, that worm has already transformed your brain a little (the part that gives you bonuses to saves), and as you take levels in FSP your control of it increases so you can transform a little more (like the part that gives charm, dominate, dispel, read thoughts).

Its very flimsy but with feats like that how could a psion not take them?

Recaiden
2009-03-16, 10:42 PM
Can you raise or resurrect someone who has undergone ceremorphosis, or does their body living as an illithid prevent that?

So how can you have illithid blood without being illithid yourself? Do illithids lose their sexual characteristics when they become illithids? I seem to remember there being debate over that. And perhaps you have a half-illithid in you ancestry? (1/2 as in larva implanted into non-human host)
The only way a mind flayer could not be evil is by becoming a neothelid instead of an illithid or possibly returning the person they infested to life, if possible. Or, by redeeming themselves and abandoning their brain eating ways after reaching adulthood.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-16, 10:46 PM
The really interesting question on the subject of Mind Flayers is: What the hell were they smoking when they came up with the Illithid Heritage feats!? :smallconfused:

No really. Illithids reproduce with ceremorphosis. So how can you have illithid blood without being illithid yourself?
Strictly speaking, the Illithid Heritage feats don't mean you have illithid blood. It says in the fluff that your ancestors were escaped slaves that the illithids had experimented on. The mutations or whatever introduced into your family that have passed on to you are semi-artificial.

RebelRogue
2009-03-16, 10:46 PM
Can you raise or resurrect someone who has undergone ceremorphosis, or does their body living as an illithid prevent that?
If you kill the tadpole before the ceremorphosis is complete, you may be able to raise the victim. However, the easiest way to make sure it is dead is to crush the victim's head, after which resurrection or true resurrection is necessary. The same goes for fully ceremorphosed characters, but you'd obviously have to kill the illithid before doing so.

Fjolnir
2009-03-16, 11:09 PM
Wouldn't TR not need the illithid, I mean it does all sorts of other crud like that...

Apparently all you would need to do is be able to accuratly describe the victim prior to ceremorphosis according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm)

tyckspoon
2009-03-16, 11:28 PM
Strictly speaking, the Illithid Heritage feats don't mean you have illithid blood. It says in the fluff that your ancestors were escaped slaves that the illithids had experimented on. The mutations or whatever introduced into your family that have passed on to you are semi-artificial.


Or, if you buy into the "developed race from the impossibly far future" theory for the origin of Illithids, the Illithid Heritage feats represent you being part of the bloodline(s) that will eventually become the Illithids. So you should probably avoid reproducing.

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-16, 11:32 PM
Campaign idea: Illithids from the future send themselves even further back in time to prevent the other races from forming. This would also negate every single debate in D&D, because there would be only one alignment, no Monks, etc.

Yeah but in response Skynet sends the Terminator back in time to prevent that from happening. And then Crono, Marle and Lucca show up in the Epoch to prevent the futurepast from being ruled by machines. :smalltongue:

If one was to do a time travel game with D&D though I think that would be pretty neat to use Illithids as the primary antagonists. Maybe an accident sends the PCs through time to the great Gith rebellion and their actions may or may not have a major impact on the time stream.

Oh boy. :smallbiggrin:

Swooper
2009-03-16, 11:53 PM
Or, if you buy into the "developed race from the impossibly far future" theory for the origin of Illithids, the Illithid Heritage feats represent you being part of the bloodline(s) that will eventually become the Illithids. So you should probably avoid reproducing.
That... actually does a pretty good job at explaining it. Damn.

chiasaur11
2009-03-16, 11:56 PM
The origin of magic, I suppose.

Time traveling wizard did it.

Lappy9000
2009-03-17, 12:00 AM
Thoon....Thoon...All Hail Thoon...

I wonder where the Mindflayers of Thoon play into all this. Evil 'cause Thoon is? Of course, we don't know who/what/when/where/how Thoon is in the first place, so it's kind of a moot point.

monty
2009-03-17, 12:14 AM
Time traveling wizard did it.

Yeah, but then you start getting into infinite loops and stuff, and it's really messy. Even with their extraordinary intelligence, wizards don't like dealing with all that paperwork.

Sebastian
2009-03-17, 03:22 AM
They cannot. A larvae that does not devour a brain to evolve into an illithid turns into a neothelid, as I linked before. Neothelids are insane, literally. If a larva wants to retain its personality and sanity, it must go through ceremorphosis and in doing so devour the brain of a living, sentient humanoid being.

Larvae have personalities? How intelligent they are? I thought they was more like spermatozoons, no intelligence and all instinct. Yopu know, like larvae.

lisiecki
2009-03-17, 03:29 AM
Outside of the brain eating thing.
Every single mindflayer is working towards creating an empire where every non mindflayer in the plains is enslaved or dead.

Strikes me as being both lawful. and evil

Kami2awa
2009-03-17, 05:06 AM
How long can an Illithid live without food? Mammals don't last long because of our fast metabolisms but those of other species are significantly slower. If an Illithid really wants to turn good, it can choose to starve to death slowly... doing good all the while, perhaps making up for things it did before it repented. Then it can (maybe) go to a Good afterlife when it succumbs to starvation.

Kami2awa
2009-03-17, 05:08 AM
Time traveling wizard did it.


Did you miss me?

http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/ericnel/WindowsLiveWriter/Imbackafteraverypleasantholiday_8515/didyoumissme%5B1%5D%5B1%5D.jpg

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-17, 08:51 AM
on the subject of Strom Wakeman.. the use of herbs and abilities to interfere with ceremorphisis would by the reason why he maintains his 'human' mindset, and so ability to continue life under his own control, and resist the new urges that are part of the illithid life.

this is distinctly different to the mind flayer, which is created through ceremorphisis, and comes out the other end knowing it's need for brains. these do not know the human life which Wakeman had before his change, do not know a life without the need to consume brains, and do not hold the same revulsion he did other the idea of consuming brains.

- a vegetarian who is turned into a lion may not like this need to eat meat, and may go off to a supermarket and get subsitutes to continue surviving, but why should the lion be blamed for fulfilling it's nature?

The Neoclassic
2009-03-17, 09:09 AM
Outside of the brain eating thing.
Every single mindflayer is working towards creating an empire where every non mindflayer in the plains is enslaved or dead.

Strikes me as being both lawful. and evil

Again, no one is arguing that usual mindflayers within the Elder Brain dominated society are nonevil. We're discussing mindflayers who could plausibly exist outside of that society- a very unusual/rare possibility, but an interesting one nevertheless. Those outside of said society would almost certainly not be working for said empire.

Samb
2009-03-17, 09:16 AM
Again, no one is arguing that usual mindflayers within the Elder Brain dominated society are nonevil. We're discussing mindflayers who could plausibly exist outside of that society- a very unusual/rare possibility, but an interesting one nevertheless. Those outside of said society would almost certainly not be working for said empire.

I believe your question has already been answered (the exalted illithid monk) and we are going to tangent into the more interesting question how how freaking cool illithids are, or illithid origions.

BobVosh
2009-03-17, 09:25 AM
Yeah, but then you start getting into infinite loops and stuff, and it's really messy. Even with their extraordinary intelligence, wizards don't like dealing with all that paperwork.

Thats why they sent thier bumbling apperentice back in time with the orb of magicness to create it. Poor fool is still doing the paper work.

Alternative: Boccob did it.

Anyway which came out later, BoED or LoM? Isn't that how conflicting RAW is solved? Because, as is, sustenance doesn't stop the need for residual pyshic energy. Also eating a regenerating brain doesn't let you eat a creature's brain as it dies, as it isn't dying.

Also if he didn't become a true Illithid and only feels a desire but not a need for brains (he creates his own energy still because he isn't completely illthid) sustenance would work for him but not a true Illithid.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-17, 09:29 AM
I believe your question has already been answered (the exalted illithid monk) and we are going to tangent into the more interesting question how how freaking cool illithids are, or illithid origions.

And I'm totally cool with that. :smallbiggrin: Illithids are pretty darn cool, though the whole Elder Brain thing still strikes me as kind of cheesy.

Samb
2009-03-17, 09:31 AM
on the subject of Strom Wakeman.. the use of herbs and abilities to interfere with ceremorphisis would by the reason why he maintains his 'human' mindset, and so ability to continue life under his own control, and resist the new urges that are part of the illithid life.

this is distinctly different to the mind flayer, which is created through ceremorphisis, and comes out the other end knowing it's need for brains. these do not know the human life which Wakeman had before his change, do not know a life without the need to consume brains, and do not hold the same revulsion he did other the idea of consuming brains.

- a vegetarian who is turned into a lion may not like this need to eat meat, and may go off to a supermarket and get subsitutes to continue surviving, but why should the lion be blamed for fulfilling it's nature?
You are getting into semantics here, created by or created through..... It's the same result you get an illithid. Wakeman's herbs increased the effect and chance of a natrual occurence. Illithid legands have warned about an illithid "nemisis" long before Wakeman even was born, which is why any new illithid that shows any habits or memories of it's old life (humming an old tune, old nervous twiches etc) are killed instantly. Wakeman simpily found out about this and found a way to increase it's chance of occuring.

Some religions think pigs or cows are sentiant and hence don't eat them. Illithid know full well their food is self aware and still eat them (in fact it adds to the taste). That is the main difference. Humans might all have differant ideas of sentiance but we all agree that killing self aware beings is wrong.

BobVosh
2009-03-17, 10:04 AM
You are getting into semantics here, created by or created through..... It's the same result you get an illithid. Wakeman's herbs increased the effect and chance of a natrual occurence. Illithid legands have warned about an illithid "nemisis" long before Wakeman even was born, which is why any new illithid that shows any habits or memories of it's old life (humming an old tune, old nervous twiches etc) are killed instantly. Wakeman simpily found out about this and found a way to increase it's chance of occuring.

Some religions think pigs or cows are sentiant and hence don't eat them. Illithid know full well their food is self aware and still eat them (in fact it adds to the taste). That is the main difference. Humans might all have differant ideas of sentiance but we all agree that killing self aware beings is wrong.

Not according to D&D. I go out and kill goblins/kobolds/and anything else that doesn't look like me and the paladin says "smells like evil."

Because I edit it, and it may go unnoticed: Anyway which came out later, BoED or LoM? Isn't that how conflicting RAW is solved? Because, as is, sustenance doesn't stop the need for residual pyshic energy. Also eating a regenerating brain doesn't let you eat a creature's brain as it dies, as it isn't dying.

Also if he didn't become a true Illithid and only feels a desire but not a need for brains (he creates his own energy still because he isn't completely illthid) sustenance would work for him but not a true Illithid.

Samb
2009-03-17, 10:26 AM
Not according to D&D. I go out and kill goblins/kobolds/and anything else that doesn't look like me and the paladin says "smells like evil."

Because I edit it, and it may go unnoticed: Anyway which came out later, BoED or LoM? Isn't that how conflicting RAW is solved? Because, as is, sustenance doesn't stop the need for residual pyshic energy. Also eating a regenerating brain doesn't let you eat a creature's brain as it dies, as it isn't dying.

Also if he didn't become a true Illithid and only feels a desire but not a need for brains (he creates his own energy still because he isn't completely illthid) sustenance would work for him but not a true Illithid.
Sustenance specifically says it provides all the nourishment you need for one day. An illithid needs psychic energy sustenance should by extrapolation provide it.
The beauty of the whole Wakeman adventure is that it offers a peak at what illithids could be like if they all took Wakeman's potion. Wakeman is basically the perfect mind flayer, high in psionic power and not dependent on brains, the main reason illithids are hated by almost all races.
As i said before Wakeman is not a new case, the nemesis is an old phenom, considered mutant illithid (but still illithid nonetheless). If you want to say the Wakeman wasn't an illithid despite his 4 tentacles, his lampray head, moist glistening skin, desire for brains then I would have to say the you too are arguing semantics.

You have a defined idea of what an illithid is, and that includes its mindset. That means you would not consider the exalted illithid in BoED to even be an illithid anymore and hence not part of the discussion. Same goes for Wakeman. This automatically precludes you from thinking thinking that redemption or even variation for illithids is even possible. Which i can relate to a certain degree since illithids are my favorite baddies but not that conductive of this thread.

Fixer
2009-03-17, 10:55 AM
To that point, however, an elan is (a) no longer human; and (b) not an illithid. Illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves on their psychic energy: if they did, it would be an ability of theirs. However, since elans specifically have a racial power that lets them do just that, they can. The absence of a rule or a fluff reference means, "No, it doesn't work that way," not, "It might work that way." Certainly, you can change it, and it would most definitely make sens for that to be the case here, but as-is illithids do not have the ability to sustain themselves merely on their psionic powers.I recall thinking, when I read up on Elan, how it would be amusing if the following sequence of events occurred:

Far Past (Pre-Time Travel): Aboleth exist alone, all other races eventually evolve.
Present (Pre-Time Travel): Humans evolve into Illithids naturally (as Humans do into Elan) because of the gene pool possessing the followers of Gith (who was not the predecessor of the githyanki or githzeri in this timeline).
Future (Pre-Time Travel): Illithids conquer the universe. They discover the universe will be destroyed and physically and psychically merge with each other to become Elder Brains. They use their collective powers as Elder Brains to go back in time and re-conquer the universe. Not all the Elder Brains make it to the same destination in space or time so they sometimes pop up in random places and times.
Far Past: Aboleth exist, then suddenly Illithids exist. Aboleth get freaked out by this sudden appearance and basically decide these Illithids are threats to their existence and must be destroyed. Illithids begin rebuilding their empire.
Not-So-Far Past: Illithids rebuild their empire, only to have it thrown down by the followers of Gith (their genetic ancestor).
Present: Humans evolve into Elan instead of illithids. This is caused because of illithids messing with the natural breeding that previously caused them to exist. Humans evolve into Elan instead because of the removal from the human gene pool the followers of Gith.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-17, 11:27 AM
Larvae have personalities? How intelligent they are? I thought they was more like spermatozoons, no intelligence and all instinct. Yopu know, like larvae.

Show me where it says a larvae that matures for ten years before undergoing ceremorphosis has only a rudimentary intelligence. Merely because something is larval or prepubescent doesn't mean it's unintelligent, only instinctual, or brainless--it just means it hasn't finished growing yet.

The Neoclassic
2009-03-17, 11:32 AM
Show me where it says a larvae that matures for ten years before undergoing ceremorphosis has only a rudimentary intelligence. Merely because something is larval or prepubescent doesn't mean it's unintelligent, only instinctual, or brainless--it just means it hasn't finished growing yet.

This brings up an interesting point. If we say, for sake of argument, that illithid larvae are intelligent: Is there any neutral option for them? They could either:

Eat the brain of the host they are implanted into: Evil, right?

or

Not eat it and rot and die: Good and very hard to pull off.

So, there's pretty much no way for a larvae to be nonevil at this stage unless it lets itself die? And because its only way to survive is to eat the brain of a living creature, no way around it, then that is a very seriously evil act which taints its alignment, if not forever, for a good deal of its life? I can't see any good way around it, if we assume larvae are intelligent... That sucks. :smalleek:

Fax Celestis
2009-03-17, 11:42 AM
This brings up an interesting point. If we say, for sake of argument, that illithid larvae are intelligent: Is there any neutral option for them? They could either:

Eat the brain of the host they are implanted into: Evil, right?

or

Not eat it and rot and die: Good and very hard to pull off.

So, there's pretty much no way for a larvae to be nonevil at this stage unless it lets itself die? And because its only way to survive is to eat the brain of a living creature, no way around it, then that is a very seriously evil act which taints its alignment, if not forever, for a good deal of its life? I can't see any good way around it, if we assume larvae are intelligent... That sucks. :smalleek:
Especially when you consider that not every larva will get the opportunity to undergo ceremorphosis: only the ones the elder brain decides are "worthy"--and probably the one's it's spent ten years psionically conditioning to act in a fashion it likes--get the opportunity. So chances are, if you've gotten a chance to go through ceremorphosis, you're already evil.

BobVosh
2009-03-17, 12:41 PM
Sustenance specifically says it provides all the nourishment you need for one day. An illithid needs psychic energy sustenance should by extrapolation provide it.

*snip*

You have a defined idea of what an illithid is, and that includes its mindset.
That means you would not consider the exalted illithid in BoED to even be an illithid anymore and hence not part of the discussion. Same goes for Wakeman. This automatically precludes you from thinking thinking that redemption or even variation for illithids is even possible. Which i can relate to a certain degree since illithids are my favorite baddies but not that conductive of this thread.

No, sustenance specifically state it supplies all the LIQUID and SOLID food you need. Not really the same as pyshic. Exactly as you linked:


Sustenance Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/Wilder 2, Psychic Warrior 2
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: 3


You can go without food and water for one day. Each time you manifest this power, your body manufactures sufficient solid and liquid nourishment to satisfy your needs for that time.

Therefore the power shouldn't provide any other form of nourishment.

As for specifically what an illithid is, I maintain that if you chemically alter the race as its conception it does kinda change its race. I won't debate being better, as obviously it is following the "daywalker" form of vampire in that it is just as strong with no weaknesses, I do hate how D&D destroys its fluff like this constantly.

lisiecki
2009-03-17, 12:47 PM
This system was giving a Dragonshard (Eberron based) to a good Mindflayer called Fred, and he could get you to "forget" an old feat to be able to retrain it.

So yes, a Mindflayer could set up a pretty decent business within a city. Lobotomy anyone? :smallbiggrin:


Who says he was good?
You payed a Mindflayer
To poke around in your head
and rearrange things.
Who knows what else he added or erased while he was in there?

Mr.Shmatt
2009-03-17, 01:10 PM
You are getting into semantics here, created by or created through..... It's the same result you get an illithid. Wakeman's herbs increased the effect and chance of a natrual occurence. Illithid legands have warned about an illithid "nemisis" long before Wakeman even was born, which is why any new illithid that shows any habits or memories of it's old life (humming an old tune, old nervous twiches etc) are killed instantly. Wakeman simpily found out about this and found a way to increase it's chance of occuring.

Some religions think pigs or cows are sentiant and hence don't eat them. Illithid know full well their food is self aware and still eat them (in fact it adds to the taste). That is the main difference. Humans might all have differant ideas of sentiance but we all agree that killing self aware beings is wrong.

the point i'm making, is that the ceremorphisis wasn't completed fully
- should Wakeman's transformation be complete (which as you have mentioned, will occur should he consume a brain), then the mind flayer personality will take control (being the final peice of the illithid entity).
- the natural occurance is evidence of the tadpole failing to take full control of it's new body, and it's culling by the mind flayers would be cleansing the race of any impurities.
- the difference between Wakeman and a Mindflayer, is that while Wakeman shares the physical characteristics of an illithid, his mind and mental facilities are still his own.

Somewhere in the LoM (although it may at a pinch be complete psionics), under the description of the illithid need to feed on brains for psychic energy, it mentions that ceremorphisis, while creating the mind flayer, changes the brain to no longer create said psychic energy itself.
- or in other words, when the body is changed from say, human into mindflayer, an important part of the human biology is lost, and this can only be replaced through the consumption of brains.

By avoiding this, it would appear that Wakeman has all the bodily needs of the mind flayer, including it's natural appetite for brains, but not the psychic necessity to consume them, meaning his abstinence isnt lethal

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-17, 01:46 PM
Two personal observations, opinion only;

Sounds like Lords of Madness blows monkey chunks, really, from what everyone says. I mean, it really doesn't sound like it adds anything cool or helpfull in any way. I'm glad there's an entire edition and a complete cosmology change isolating me and my stuff from it's half-witted ramblings.

Secondly, that goes double for Strom. Really, from what little I could find about the character, I really don't see the cool. The entire concept of the illithid race being intimidated by a single mindflayer, on account of; "Oh Noes, he has a mighty human mind! We are teh dooomed!" really turns me off. For my personal money, it just seems a bit of a lame premise, with more than a hint of elminster-esque marty-stu flavour thrown in.

Obviously, YMMV folks, but there's two things I shaln't ever be incorporating. :)

Starbuck_II
2009-03-17, 01:47 PM
I recall thinking, when I read up on Elan, how it would be amusing if the following sequence of events occurred:

Far Past (Pre-Time Travel): Aboleth exist alone, all other races eventually evolve.
Present (Pre-Time Travel): Humans evolve into Illithids naturally (as Humans do into Elan) because of the gene pool possessing the followers Future (Pre-Time Travel): Illithids conquer the universe. They discover the universe will be destroyed and physically and psychically merge with each other to become Elder Brains. They use their collective powers as of Gith (who was not the predecessor of the githyanki or githzeri in this timeline).
Elder Brains to go back in time and re-conquer the universe. Not all the Elder Brains make it to the same destination in space or time so they sometimes pop up in random places and times.
Far Past: Aboleth exist, then suddenly Illithids exist. Aboleth get freaked out by this sudden appearance and basically decide these Illithids are threats to their existence and must be destroyed. Illithids begin rebuilding their empire.
Not-So-Far Past: Illithids rebuild their empire, only to have it thrown down by the followers of Gith (their genetic ancestor).
Present: Humans evolve into Elan instead of illithids. This is caused because of illithids messing with the natural breeding that previously caused them to exist. Humans evolve into Elan instead because of the removal from the human gene pool the followers of Gith.



You are forgeting Illithid future heritage feats.
Any people who takes them and survives to reproduce will eventually spawn the first race that was the illithid before they mutated/goty taken over by Elder Brains (I see elder brains as perversion of the illithid myself).

So we have two presents:
a. Humans evolve into Elan instead of illithids. This is caused because of illithids messing with the natural breeding that previously caused them to exist. Humans evolve into Elan instead because of the removal from the human gene pool the followers of Gith.
b. A few humans will evolve into Illithid. Though, the numbers will be far fewer than in the original time line.

Fax Celestis
2009-03-17, 02:00 PM
Sounds like Lords of Madness blows monkey chunks, really, from what everyone says. I mean, it really doesn't sound like it adds anything cool or helpfull in any way. I'm glad there's an entire edition and a complete cosmology change isolating me and my stuff from it's half-witted ramblings.

It's not really a bad book, it just doesn't always agree with everything else.

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-17, 02:25 PM
Sounds like it disagrees with most of what came before, and most of what came after, and, frankly, from what content-related things have been mentioned, pretty much doesn't appeal even ignoring those problems. So, for me, it's out, Fax.

lisiecki
2009-03-17, 05:38 PM
You are forgeting Illithid future heritage feats.
Any people who takes them and survives to reproduce will eventually spawn the first race that was the illithid before they mutated/goty taken over by Elder Brains (I see elder brains as perversion of the illithid myself).

So we have two presents:
a. Humans evolve into Elan instead of illithids. This is caused because of illithids messing with the natural breeding that previously caused them to exist. Humans evolve into Elan instead because of the removal from the human gene pool the followers of Gith.
b. A few humans will evolve into Illithid. Though, the numbers will be far fewer than in the original time line.

Since when is there evolution on Oreth?
All the races in existence sprang in to existence whole cloth
Or are the results of wizards making animals do bad bad things to each other

Samb
2009-03-18, 07:39 PM
You are forgeting Illithid future heritage feats.
Any people who takes them and survives to reproduce will eventually spawn the first race that was the illithid before they mutated/goty taken over by Elder Brains (I see elder brains as perversion of the illithid myself).

So we have two presents:
a. Humans evolve into Elan instead of illithids. This is caused because of illithids messing with the natural breeding that previously caused them to exist. Humans evolve into Elan instead because of the removal from the human gene pool the followers of Gith.
b. A few humans will evolve into Illithid. Though, the numbers will be far fewer than in the original time line.

It's funny that you mention this because one campaign of mine has a flayedspawn psychic that basically became a full blown illithid. Not only that he took up the illithid savant PrC and ate a few elder brains to discover that he is indeed the being that destined to become Illiense.

chiasaur11
2009-03-18, 07:50 PM
It's funny that you mention this because one campaign of mine has a flayedspawn psychic that basically became a full blown illithid. Not only that he took up the illithid savant PrC and ate a few elder brains to discover that he is indeed the being that destined to become Illiense.

Man, your PCs don't go in for half measures, do they?

Samb
2009-03-18, 08:51 PM
Man, your PCs don't go in for half measures, do they?

Yeah he ate the brain of an aboleth and found the secret of how the gods came to be, went and ate the brain of a sleeping/dead god in the astral and then took over it's body (intelluct devoured). We promply made him retire after he got alter reality.

Mikeavelli
2009-03-18, 10:06 PM
Can you raise or resurrect someone who has undergone ceremorphosis, or does their body living as an illithid prevent that?
Do illithids lose their sexual characteristics when they become illithids? I seem to remember there being debate over that. And perhaps you have a half-illithid in you ancestry? (1/2 as in larva implanted into non-human host)
The only way a mind flayer could not be evil is by becoming a neothelid instead of an illithid or possibly returning the person they infested to life, if possible. Or, by redeeming themselves and abandoning their brain eating ways after reaching adulthood.

Disturbing mental imagery:


There's some rule 34 stuff on that out there on the internet. Both in the way you think, and not in the way you think.


I have to agree with Tiki here on hating what LoM did with the Illithids. The time-travel-ancestry nonsense doesn't really "fit," IMHO. No real specific objections past that.

The stuff LoM has on the Aboleths, though, was really well done. The book is worth it for just that section.

[hr]

There's a running theme on these boards, and in D&D in general, towards looking at a "good-aligned" version of a classically evil and villainous creature. This all came from what I like to call the "Drizzt complex" - seeing always evil races as so cool that some player wants to go off and be one.

This is bad.

The reason a lot of these monstrous races are so terrifying is that they're not humanized. They're alien, and they're inimical to life as we know it. Mind Flayers don't eat brains because MUAH HA HA HA I'M AN EVIL FLAYER THINGY! - they eat brains because they don't see anything wrong with it! There's absolutely nothing in their moral code that tells them eating brains is anything other than the natural order of things.

Indeed, if D&D were an illithid-centric, instead of human-centric setting, brain-eating would be "good" and having a penchant for killing illithids would be "evil." Damaging an elder brain would be evil on the same level humans consider dining on diced, unborn fetus to be evil.

A "good" illithid is as much of an aberration as a cannibal in human society, or a pedophile, or a serial killer, and would be treated accordingly by the rest of illithid society.

Existent, but not common. It's mechanically possible, and morally possible - in the same sense that humans might start out their lives not being cannibals, but could start doing it halfway through life, and just roll with it.

An entire society of "good" flayers would probably be tracked down and annihilated out of what humans would call moral outrage, for the same reasons we, in modern day (or ancient day, or whatever) America would arrest\lynch a commune of cannibals.

Samb
2009-03-18, 10:53 PM
I think a lot of people are a bit co fused. It was long established that illithid are evil in a humanoid-centric defination. The question is whether it is possible for them to redeem themselves in our eyes. The illithid in BoED shows that it is possible how they can get there is another issue, since eating the brains of even one self aware being is evil.

I am not a fan of good "bad" guys either but I do like varity and change. If you say that a good illithid is no longer an illithid then this debate is over already.

Also the whole time traveling aspect of the illithid is just a theory according to LoM, there seems to be many theories on their origions but the "from the future" gained the most ground because something about illithids just reeks of sci-fi. In fact psionics itself implies a higher state of evolution only possible in the far future. Even the gith races devolped their powers after many generations of slavery and their psionic might pales to illithids'. I personally loved LoM as it shed light on the best monsters in DnD.

Khanderas
2009-03-19, 04:01 AM
Two personal observations, opinion only;

Sounds like Lords of Madness blows monkey chunks, really, from what everyone says. I mean, it really doesn't sound like it adds anything cool or helpfull in any way. I'm glad there's an entire edition and a complete cosmology change isolating me and my stuff from it's half-witted ramblings.

Secondly, that goes double for Strom. Really, from what little I could find about the character, I really don't see the cool. The entire concept of the illithid race being intimidated by a single mindflayer, on account of; "Oh Noes, he has a mighty human mind! We are teh dooomed!" really turns me off. For my personal money, it just seems a bit of a lame premise, with more than a hint of elminster-esque marty-stu flavour thrown in.

Obviously, YMMV folks, but there's two things I shaln't ever be incorporating. :)
Couldn't agree more.
All I am hearing about that guy is "he can survive just fine without brains, so illithids dont actually need brains. They just eat brains for the taste and to be eeevil."
I don't care how official he is. He is one singular special case who is not a complete Illithid. The daywalker comparason from another poster strikes me as very true, all advantages and none of the drawbacks indeed.


I am not a fan of good "bad" guys either but I do like varity and change. If you say that a good illithid is no longer an illithid then this debate is over already. I say an illithid can be both good and eat brains. My problem with this debate is the angle 'I want to be a good illithid, and therefore I'll make the problem with eating brains disappear... oh and he is also famous among the illithids as a slayer of them and their plans.'
I firmly believe that illithids HAS to eat brains to survive. Like a vampire who HAS to feed on human blood to prolong its unlife. It is the whole point of the template. Without those troublesome details, they are just Marty Stu's.
And you can still make a PC Illithid in a good campaign, all he needs is a way to disguise himself and limit his eating to enemies, so it is not like it is something that must be fixed to be playable.

Samb
2009-03-19, 06:40 AM
Illithid have a LA of 7 I think so that could take a while to buyback and is usually enough for me to say no playing illithids. Like I mentioned earlier flayerspawn psychic allows you to eat brains, augment your blast, and gain levels as a psion while you are at it. Seems much more worth it if you ask me.

Kami2awa
2009-03-19, 07:09 AM
I looked into the idea of a good mind flayer. Only one class allowed for him to eat sentient brains: paladin. How?

1. Smite evil. Obviously meant for evil to die. So I had this illithid go around tying his tentacles together with a pink ribbon and with a huge helmet hiding his face. (I use his as a pronoun because it just gets typed quicker than her for me.)

So he goes around, fighting evil, and when a truly vile person comes along he goes out of his way to give them a "chance at redemption". If they do not repent, he sucks out their brain to take their sins upon himself.

Then he repents for his evil nature.

As for how he was naturally evil: a mysterious god of light protects him from sunlight. And talks to him in his sleep.

Hes the illithid version of a sociopath!

That's a really cool concept; in fact, there used to be people employed as 'Sin Eaters' IRL. In exchange for the inherent free meal, they would consume a symbolic funeral feast which represented the sins of the departed, ridding them of sin and excusing them from purgatory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater

Fax Celestis
2009-03-19, 09:41 AM
Illithid have a LA of 7 I think so that could take a while to buyback and is usually enough for me to say no playing illithids. Like I mentioned earlier flayerspawn psychic allows you to eat brains, augment your blast, and gain levels as a psion while you are at it. Seems much more worth it if you ask me.

+7 LA and 8 HD. That's ECL 15.

Samb
2009-03-19, 09:57 AM
+7 LA and 8 HD. That's ECL 15.

wow that is steep. At lvl 15 you could have a lvl 5 psion and a full fledged mind blast that is better a real illithid's.

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-19, 10:55 AM
wow that is steep. At lvl 15 you could have a lvl 5 psion and a full fledged mind blast that is better a real illithid's.

And a great example why the whole HD/LA/ECL system blows monkey chunks, really.

Now if only there was a monster-race write-up for the old squid-faces in the 4th ed monster manual. Dangit. So Close.

Fixer
2009-03-19, 11:10 AM
And a great example why the whole HD/LA/ECL system blows monkey chunks, really.

Now if only there was a monster-race write-up for the old squid-faces in the 4th ed monster manual. Dangit. So Close.
Actually, I think it is the improved grapple, dimension door and plane shift at will thing that gives them the level adjustment, not the mind blast. Imagine those powers at the control of a PC.

BBEG + Plane Shifting PC + Improved Grapple = BBEG on Negative Energy plane wondering 'WTF?' while the PC is back where the BBEG was, looting his stuff.

Shwepie
2009-03-20, 05:38 AM
Secondly, that goes double for Strom. Really, from what little I could find about the character, I really don't see the cool. The entire concept of the illithid race being intimidated by a single mindflayer, on account of; "Oh Noes, he has a mighty human mind! We are teh dooomed!" really turns me off. For my personal money, it just seems a bit of a lame premise, with more than a hint of elminster-esque marty-stu flavour thrown in.


I think it's more that he represents everything they are not, as opposed to him being all human mind powers.

Think about it, the entire mindflayer society revolves around the Elder Brain. You are raised (Read: Brain washed) by it, nutured (Read: Not eaten) by it, kept in a consistant mind link with it that you go all crazy uncomfortible without. Then you spend your life serving its will and will one day become apart of it, in so much as food becomes apart of something when it is eaten. So anything that is outside of that narrow view of how their society should work is both feared and hated.

This Storm guy, he is basicly a slap in the face to all of that. Because he isn't a fully developed mindflayer he is free from the Elder Brain. He is both hope for the entire race and a mockery of everything that they are. It is no wonder they view him as the first step towards the downfall of society. Just like those kids and their rock music.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-20, 06:18 AM
Show me where it says a larvae that matures for ten years before undergoing ceremorphosis has only a rudimentary intelligence. Merely because something is larval or prepubescent doesn't mean it's unintelligent, only instinctual, or brainless--it just means it hasn't finished growing yet. Actually LoM specifies that a tadpole only becomes sentient once it actually devours its first brain.


And a great example why the whole HD/LA/ECL system blows monkey chunks, really.
EXP has them casting as a Telepath of some level or other, how high it is I can’t remember and I’m not close to my books atm.