PDA

View Full Version : [4.0] Archane Rouge?



darkriku2000
2009-03-15, 10:31 PM
Hey, 'sup everybody.

So, My bro is starting a campaign in which he's going to be the DM, with me and some of our friends as the players. I think that he may have posted about that here actually.

At any rate, this campaign is using the 4.0 rule set, and I'm playing as a rouge focusing on acrobatics equipped with a rapier for fighting and a parrying dagger in my off hand for the bonuses it'll give me. I am basically preparing my character for the swash buckler prestige class. One of our guys is a cleric of bahamut, another is a wizard, and the other is an archer ranger.

So, anyways, I was reading the book, and noticed some neat lv 1 wizard powers that could really come in handy. Since I'm kind of confused by the dual class, or multiclassing, or whatever in the 4.0 rules (it does not seem to be just "I want to take a level in wizard" like it was in 3.5) I was wondering if anybody could tell me if it was possible to get some of the wizard powers or class features, like the cantrips, or the sleep daily power, weather through feats or some other method.

Wow I sure got off topic a lot in that post, I tend to do that a lot actually. I've been doing for as long as I can remember like since I was four or something.

So anyways, thanks a lot in advance for any help, and sorry for the long post

NPCMook
2009-03-15, 10:41 PM
Yes, instead of the normal multiclassing from 3.5 they did away with leveling dipping and now since you gain so many feats you multiclass using feats. Depending on how you build your character your main stat will be Dex, Secondary will be Str/Int

Human Paragon 3
2009-03-15, 10:47 PM
Archane? Rouge?

RTGoodman
2009-03-15, 10:52 PM
As NPCMook said, multiclassing in 4E is entirely feat-based. Whenever you want to start doing it, you just have to take the feat.

To start with, check out pg. 208-09 in the PHB. As a Rogue/Wizard, you'll take the Arcane Initiate feat (which has the prerequisite of Int 13), which gives you (1) training in the Arcana skill, (2) the ability to pick a single Wizard 1st-level at-will power to use as an encounter power, (3) the ability to use orbs, staffs, or wands as implements for wizard powers and stuff like that.

After that, you'd take the power swap feats on pg. 209. Novice Power (which requires 4th level) lets you swap one of your normal encounter powers for a Wizard encounter power of the same level or lower. Acolyte Power at 8th level lets you do the same for a utility power, and Adept Power at 10th level lets you do the same for a daily.

After that, you can take either a Rogue OR Wizard Paragon Path, or you could "Paragon Multiclass" as a Wizard via the rules on pg 209.


One thing I might suggest, though, would be to use Warlock or Sorcerer (in the PHB2 that comes out Tuesday) as your "arcane" half. Both use Charisma rather than Intelligence as a main stat, and as a Rogue you're either going to be Dex/Cha-based or Dex/Str-based.


Hope that helps!

Rockphed
2009-03-15, 10:54 PM
There are 2 problems with multiclassing from Rogue into Wizard. Firstly, Wizards tend to use an Implement to cast, so you need to keep both your rapier and wand, staff or orb up to spec. The other problem is that, unless I am forgetting something, rogues don't get any benefit out of Intelligence, which is the Stat that wizards use to attack.

If you want to use sleep, you need to take Arcane Initiate(though there might be another in Adventurers' Vault) at some point and Adept Power at Level 10(either by retraining an earlier feat or by taking a new one.)

Grrr, I just got ninjaed.

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 10:59 PM
It's difficult and greatly unoptimal to get cross-class at-will powers as at-will powers, as you have to paragon multiclass to pull it off. However, there are a few ways of getting cross-class at-will powers as encounter powers, encounter powers as daily powers, and daily powers as daily powers.

The easiest way to get at-will powers as encounters is to take the multiclass feats. Taking the feat Arcane Initiate (multiclass Wizard) gets you one Wizard at-will power as an encounter power. Being a half-elf allows you to get another (or a second use per encounter of the same one) through the Delittante feature. If you have one or more powers with the Arcane power source, whether it be via Arcane Initiate or Delittante, by RAW you can use any and all Arcane Wands, including the Master's Wands in the Adventurer's Vault (which have Wizard and Warlock at-will powers as encounter powers).

Getting one encounter power as an encounter power is achievable through the Novice Power feat (for which you'd need to already have Arcane Initiate). Otherwise, wands come to the rescue once again, giving a Wizard or Warlock encounter power as a daily magic item use.

Cross-class daily powers are typically only available through the Adept Power feat.



There are magic items in the Adventurer's Vault, namely the Hedge Wizard's Gloves (p.135), Magician's Ring (p.157), and Gauntlets of Brilliance (p.133) which, between them, allow the use of all 4 of the Wizard's cantrips. The other Wizard class features cannot currently be acquired by a cross-class character, though judging from some of the feats in Martial Power they will become available for characters who paragon multiclass once Arcane Power comes out.

String
2009-03-15, 11:02 PM
Also, being a Half-Elf will also give the oppurtunity to take one of the Wizard at-wills for an encounter power.

NPCMook
2009-03-15, 11:08 PM
As Rtg pointed out Warlock is good, so is Sorcerer, the Warlock would be a better choice since can gain pact blades, which would still allow you to use your warlock powers along with wielding a Rapier also.


Dagger

Proficiency: +3
Damage: 1d4
Property 1:Off-hand
Property 2:Light Thrown



Parraying Dagger
Proficiency: +2
Damage: 1d4
Property 1:Off-hand
Property 2:Defensive


Half-Elf's Dilettante power allows them to take an At-Will power from any other class of their choosing. PHB 2 allows them to turn it into an At-will power.

Also Multiclassing to Wizard does NOT give you Wizard's Spellbook, Cantrips, and/or Implement Mastery(You can use an Orb, Staff, or Wand as an Implement)

RTGoodman
2009-03-15, 11:19 PM
Being a half-elf allows you to get another (or a second use per encounter of the same one) through the Delittante feature.

That actually doesn't work. According to pg. 27 of the PHB, "You can take each power only once (you can't choose the same power multiple times)." So you can get two at-wills as two encounter powers, but that's it. (I actually just happened to see the Ask Wizards about that (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080929) a couple of hours ago...)


@NPCMook: Yeah, the Warlock can get Pact Blades daggers as implements, but Sorcerers actually use DAGGERS THEMSELVES as implements. That makes Rogue/Sorcerers REALLY easy to build. Couple that with the fact that both use Cha and Dex almost exclusively and you've got probably the most versatile Striker out there, with both mundane attacks and elemental ones, along with the ability to dish out big damage in melee and at range.

NPCMook
2009-03-15, 11:26 PM
That actually doesn't work. According to pg. 27 of the PHB, "You can take each power only once (you can't choose the same power multiple times)." So you can get two at-wills as two encounter powers, but that's it. (I actually just happened to see the Ask Wizards about that (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080929) a couple of hours ago...)


@NPCMook: Yeah, the Warlock can get Pact Blades daggers as implements, but Sorcerers actually use DAGGERS THEMSELVES as implements. That makes Rogue/Sorcerers REALLY easy to build. Couple that with the fact that both use Cha and Dex almost exclusively and you've got probably the most versatile Striker out there, with both mundane attacks and elemental ones, along with the ability to dish out big damage in melee and at range.

I did not know that Sorcerer used daggers AS implements

NecroRebel
2009-03-15, 11:37 PM
That actually doesn't work. According to pg. 27 of the PHB, "You can take each power only once (you can't choose the same power multiple times)." So you can get two at-wills as two encounter powers, but that's it. (I actually just happened to see the Ask Wizards about that (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080929) a couple of hours ago...)

Fair enough, I was not aware of that. I simply assumed that there were no rulings of that nature, since it's the sort of backdoor that WotC often misses.

RTGoodman
2009-03-15, 11:41 PM
I did not know that Sorcerer used daggers AS implements

Yep. From the preview article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090126):


Sorcerers wield daggers and staffs to channel their wild arcane power.

And since they specifically WIELD daggers, that also means a Rogue/Sorcerer can get a flat +1 bonus on all attacks because of his Rogue Weapon Talent (which says he gets a +1 bonus on attack rolls when you "wield a dagger"). Combine that with Weapon Expertise (+1 attack with one weapon group; PHB2) and maybe Implement Expertise (+1 attack with one implement, and it's untyped to it probably stacks with WE; PHB2), that's already a +3 on all your Sorcerer attacks, most of which are vs. non-AC defenses. You don't get your Proficiency bonus on Implement powers, but still, that's not a bad deal (1/2 Level + Charisma + enhancement bonus + 3, plus other situational ones).

NPCMook
2009-03-15, 11:47 PM
They Rogue talent probably only works on powers with the Weapon Keyword. Same with Weapon Expertise.

Just my Thoughts, as that is how it works for Swordmage.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-16, 06:46 AM
I was wondering if anybody could tell me if it was possible to get some of the wizard powers or class features, like the cantrips, or the sleep daily power, weather through feats or some other method.

The short answer is "no".

The slightly longer answer is yes, but it'll cost you, won't work until you're level 8 or so, and will be mostly ineffective.

If you want cantrips, play a gnome and grab the PHB2 feat that gives you cantrips. Alternatively, wear Gloves of the Hedge Mage (from the AV). That's the easy part.

If you want the Sleep spell, you would have to wait until you're level 10, then grab the feats Arcane Initiate and Expert Power to trade one of your own daily powers for the Sleep spell. The problem is that your chance to hit with this spell will be abysmal, so you might as well not bother. This is because by then, you'll likely have a +3 weapon but not a +3 implement, and you can't triple-wield rapier, dagger and implement, and the intelligence score is almost completely useless for rogues and yet absolutely vital for the Sleep spell.

Better idea? Grab a Lullaby weapon (also from the AV). It lets you Sleep an opponent once per day, much easier.

Overall, a rogue/wizard hybrid with those classes really doesn't work in 4E. It gets feasible if you play a bard (and pretend it's a rogue) or play a warlock (and pretend it's a wizard) or something like that.

Burley
2009-03-16, 06:58 AM
Well, if you're wanting to play an Archane Rouge in the way that I wanted to play an Archane Rouge when I first started playing 4e, the powers you're wanting are the wizard cantrips. (I'm willing to bet anything right now that the OP wants prestidigitation for the "turn something invisible for a round" line).
If these are the powers you want, forget about multiclassing, 'cause it doesn't work that way. Get the Hedge Wizard's Gloves for the Adventurer's Vault, page 135.

Edit: Gah... Ninja'd. Darn you, Kurald. You blew it up. You blew it all up!

Raz_Fox
2009-03-16, 09:45 AM
The Archane race is very well suited to playing rouges, due to their natural ability to climb walls, their eight legs and their bonuses to dexterity and charisma.

However, the Rouge class is woefully underpowered in $E - they took away the perfume abilities that practically defined the class, as well as the bonuses to disguise and bluff for masterful application of rouge. Now, you might as well call the class "Facepaint" - it's become just like every other class in the game. $E ruined my Rouge. :smallfrown:

Bottom line: If you want to play an Archane, you could play 4th edition - but if you really want the Rouge class as it's meant to be played in all its perfumed, face-coloring glory, play 3rd edition.



Disclaimer: Raz_Fox's posts in no way or form guarantee truthfulness, truthiness, courtesy or undying love. Raz_Fox has a clinically proven whimsical sense of humor. Raz_Fox has been proved to be spelling and grammar freak and has been deemed lethally dangerous to the non-literate forumgoer. Handle with care. Raz_Fox's post in no way or form is an endorsement of the edition of hell, 3.5. Raz_Fox isn't sure that he was thinking of the correct definition of rouge, but hopes that he was correct. Are you still reading this tiny little text down here at the bottom of the post, you silly english person? Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries! You freak - nobody ever makes it all the way down here in the disclaimer. You're not supposed to read this stupid thing, it's so that we can claim legal protection in case you do something stupid like take it literally, you twit. All terms and restrictions apply to this post. In America. Raz_Fox, Edition of Hell, Truthiness and Rouge copyright of the BSA, RAZ and TAC. Talk to your doctor today to see if Raz_Fox is right for you!

Tengu_temp
2009-03-16, 10:24 AM
Implement Expertise (+1 attack with one implement, and it's untyped to it probably stacks with WE; PHB2)

Good luck finding a DM who allows this stacking, though - even if it's legal by RAW, it's surely not RAI. And I bet it'll get fixed in an errata.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:53 AM
Good luck finding a DM who allows this stacking, though - even if it's legal by RAW, it's surely not RAI. And I bet it'll get fixed in an errata.

I dunno what RAI you're looking at - the text is unambiguous.

Basically, it was included to fix a revealed problem with to-hit vs. defenses as the system scales up - not a big problem, but enough that adding a feat would be helpful.

Personally, I'd have made it a Paragon Feat, but it's hardly going to break the game.

LordZarth
2009-03-16, 11:49 AM
But why would Archanes use rouge? I just don't get it.

Flickerdart
2009-03-16, 12:08 PM
But why would Archanes use rouge? I just don't get it.
Rouge of the Archane
This make-up is created from grinding the slain corpse of the English language into a fine powder.
Lvl 5: 200gp
Reagent
Power (Consumable): Free Action. Your CHA is treated as 4 points higher for the purpose of a single roll.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-16, 05:45 PM
But why would Archanes use rouge? I just don't get it.

It helps against the minionions of Satin.

afroakuma
2009-03-16, 05:52 PM
Out of all the typos, this one bugs me the most because so many longtime players screw this up. :smallannoyed:

So, you're a rouge, are you? Well, I'm a bleu néon. And demonstrably brighter and cooler than you. :smalltongue:

More makeup jokes, please. :smallamused:

Tengu_temp
2009-03-16, 05:59 PM
I dunno what RAI you're looking at - the text is unambiguous.

Basically, it was included to fix a revealed problem with to-hit vs. defenses as the system scales up - not a big problem, but enough that adding a feat would be helpful.

Personally, I'd have made it a Paragon Feat, but it's hardly going to break the game.

I meant the stacking of Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise (or two Weapon Expertises) for double attack bonus. The feats are fine separately.

NPCMook
2009-03-16, 06:13 PM
Implement Expertise will only work with powers that contain the Implement keyword.
Weapon Expertise will only work with the powers that contain the Weapon keyword.