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Fiery Diamond
2009-03-16, 07:42 AM
I was at first rather perplexed when I came across this whole "I hate elves" and "elves are snooty jerks" business on the forums a long time back. I have never played (or seen played) elves in such a manner, but rather as courteous and polite individuals. So, I'm wondering, does anyone else here have fantasy races that they play or DM differently than what seems to be the accepted norm, like orcs that are quite "civilized," just less educated and a little rough around the edges, or the courteous elves I speak of in the thread title?

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-03-16, 09:08 AM
Blame Tolkien and his elves of Lothlorien and Mirkwood - the classic haughty xenophobic elves. I guess it can be a common theme in many games that elves are rather aloof and haughty, but it doesn't have to be so.

The 3.5 D&D PHB says "Elves are more often amused than excited.... they are slow to make friends... they reply to petty insults with disdain and to serious insults with vengeance" - which could lead to apparent snootiness.
The Monster Manual goes on to say that Gray Elves "have a reputation for being aloof and arrogant (even by elven standards)", which further supports the idea that other races see elves that way.

Thing is, these are in-character perceptions of the race by other races - the PHB and MM both point to the long-lived, nature-loving personality as the reason for the perception - and that the emotions of the elf are not as fiery as other races, until they go over the line and unleash hell. Even if one uses the standard D&D setting traits given to elves, this "arrogance" is only a perception, rather than the absolute truth.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-03-16, 09:14 AM
It's just another dumb forum meme.

Evil the Cat
2009-03-16, 09:24 AM
Well, like it says in the national anthem, Elfland, and **** you too, "We are a race of total bastards."

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-16, 09:32 AM
I tend to stick for some racial traits while avoiding others (eg: Wolfram Prower, http://mydndgame.com/character/104/sheet , was the first character I ever made, and I tend to play him as being completely unable to stand up for himself as far as females are concerned while not having a problem with using violence due to the fact that he's a Gnoll, but he would sooner use diplomacy if there's a problem and he is pretty obsessed with keeping clean). I generally see alignment as being the first thing I dump when making acharacter due to seeing listed alignments as unrealistic when applied to races beyond small groups of individuals.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-16, 09:41 AM
Well, like it says in the national anthem, Elfland, and **** you too, "We are a race of total bastards."

Heh.

Also relevant, Our Elves Are Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter). Far from being "just another forum meme", this is a long-standing literary trope.

alchemyprime
2009-03-16, 04:27 PM
Yeah I remember playing a at one point a Warforged that was a grizzled old amnesiatic man with a female voice in his head...

a changeling male that stayed in female form out of denial...

A cleric of Olidammara that was brought up Wee Jasian his whole life...

Yeah. I kinda just make the whole character to play.

Captain Six
2009-03-16, 10:28 PM
I think it boils down to fluff vs. mechanics and a player's reaction to it. Elves are masters of both sword and spell even though it takes them 100 years to learn what a human can in 15. They are the masters of intellect despite that half of the elven races have an intelligence penalty. They are the masters of art even though they can only experience the subtleties in emotions. They are the superior mortal race at +0 level adjustment. In play elves tend to come off as that guy who thinks he's much smarter than he is.

I much prefer elves in point-buy systems, where the race is actually superior in the ways it claims it is.

Ponce
2009-03-16, 10:53 PM
I have never played (or seen played) elves in such a manner, but rather as courteous and polite individuals.
They're actually just being passive-aggressive. :smallwink:

TheThan
2009-03-17, 12:35 AM
I was at first rather perplexed when I came across this whole "I hate elves" and "elves are snooty jerks" business on the forums a long time back. I have never played (or seen played) elves in such a manner, but rather as courteous and polite individuals. So, I'm wondering, does anyone else here have fantasy races that they play or DM differently than what seems to be the accepted norm, like orcs that are quite "civilized," just less educated and a little rough around the edges, or the courteous elves I speak of in the thread title?

Hah, elves just want you to think they are kind and courteous creatures. But that’s just a ruse to gain your trust. Then they stab you in the back and go on their merry way. you’ve fallen into their trap.
:smallbiggrin:

Townopolis
2009-03-17, 12:35 AM
Elves being easy-to-hate *******s may be a product of people hating them.

I mean hating the fact that they're a playable race that is, more often than not, portrayed in fluff as being simply Better than everyone else.

It's like... Bob wants his character to be gruff and beardy (like himself), so he plays a dwarf. Fred wants his character to be hyperactive and weird (like himself), so he plays a gnome. Hank wants to assert his normalcy (loser), so he plays a human, and John wants his character to just be better than everyone else's, so he plays an elf.

It's worse than "I am a paladin, ergo I can do no wrong."

The same can be said about vampires in most games where they are played.

They are (again, more often than not) portrayed as what is essentially the Mary Sue/Gary Stu race... and so people hate them... and so they add traits that they find help justify said hate.

TempusCCK
2009-03-17, 01:38 AM
I can attest that this is not a forum meme. I'm currently playing an Elf Cleric with a group second edition gamers recently converted to 3.0/3.5.

One of them refers to me as "his friend" in combat when I'm sticking arrows into monsters over his head, but "the elf" when I'm not healing him or helping him fight.

krossbow
2009-03-17, 01:41 AM
Unfortunately, one DM i know has a tendency to turn virtually the entire elven nation into a swarming mass of psychotic epic druids who will kill you for chopping down trees.




That being said, it depends. Half the campaigns i've ever been in, Orcs are either a race of native american plains peoples, or beer guzzling brian blesseds.

BlueWizard
2009-03-17, 01:52 AM
I make an effort to make each one of my races individuals. Sometimes cities or towns have a generic feel, but for the most part all my NPCs are different. Like real people. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2009-03-17, 01:59 AM
I make an effort to make each one of my races individuals. Sometimes cities or towns have a generic feel, but for the most part all my NPCs are different. Like real people. :smallsmile:
^^^ this. Hell, I make my NPC's so unique and memorable that my players STILL talk about random shopkeeps, folk in the streets, and barkeeps.:smallbiggrin:

Jayngfet
2009-03-17, 02:01 AM
Responding to the actual topic: I prefer to run good "bad races". I'm currently a CG Kobold ranger and a goblin paladin.

Responding to opinions: This is the sort of thing that every fantasy setting ever does. The elves always elietist jackasses that can never back up their words. In DND they have significantly worse attributes(an extra five years just to hit puberty and start training? Half of them have int penalties yet are "artistic" and "know about the forest". Hell SUNLIGHT can put a dark elf at a signifigant disadvantage). In warcraft they've made more screwups than anyone else and never get calle on it(blowing up a contenent, which caused a huge set of mutations that created several major antagonists, which pushed the merlocs out of their natural habitats onto land to become the most hated enemy, spawning one of the main villans directly related to their leader, ignoring good advice and corrupting entire ecosystems because they couldn't stand the thought of dying like everyone else(even though it still takes thousands of years), becoming addicts who need to suck the life out of other living creatures to survive, the list goes on). Don't get me started on eragon...

They're the jackasses who everyone loves to put in their place.

Neithan
2009-03-17, 07:22 AM
I think there's no problem with having the majority of the elven population believe, that they are the superior spicies and just plain better than anyone else.
As long as the gm keeps impartial to this and stays in NPCharacter when making such statements, I think it actually adds a lot to the depth of the race. :smallbiggrin:

But of course, it works much better if elves who have a lot of contact with other races, for example adventurers in a mixed party, make the experience, that this is mostly prejudice against any non-elves.

In my campaign, races don't mix too much with each other. Most have their own nations and keep to themselves. People from other races are seen as foreigners would in the real world. If relations are good, they are welcomed as temporary guests, but would take years to get integrated. If relations are bad, other races are look down on and seen as savages.

Evil the Cat
2009-03-17, 09:51 AM
Well, you can expect every race to firmly believe that they are the superior species. They may have different reasons they believe they are superior, but they will still believe it.

As for the elves, they have many reasons to consider themselves better. their belief system has them as being a far older race,with a more peaceful nature, and closer ties to life and the universe. Whether or not it is true, it is a fundamental belief. It also has to do with how they live closer to the land without disturbing it. This has real world parallels, the more extreme environmentalists do tend to consider themselves far superior to the stupid people destroying their planet.

A feeling of superiority has nothing to do with actually being better. (unless you're a dragon.)

Talya
2009-03-17, 09:59 AM
Elves in Tolkien are remarkably courteous and kind. The problem is, they actually are superior to the mortal races, in almost every possible way. This means that elves might give an arrogant appearance, because they literally have to condescend to deal with most mortals. They are willing to do so, and look after the mortal races rather than deal uncharitably with them, but they are superior and they'd have to be stupid not to know it. That doesn't make them arrogant, or lacking in humility. They know where the strength of men lies, and they try to bring it out in them, as men will be the future of Middle Earth, not the elves.

The problem in D&D, is that for game balance reasons, elves are no longer superior. They gave them the same attitude, but took away most of what actually made them better.

If one were to model Tolkien-elves in D&D 3.5, they'd be something like this:

* +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 wisdom, +2 charisma
* Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
* Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
* Immortality: Elves do not suffer ill effects of aging. At every 50 years, they gain +1 to one ability score of their choice. This bonus cannot be applied to the same ability score more than once every 200 years. Elves are immune to all magic or effects that cause old age or aging.
* Superior Vision: An elf can see ten times as far as a human in both broad daylight, or the darker conditions of starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
* An Elf gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. An Elf may use weapon finesse on any slashing or peircing weapon, even if they are not light weapons.
* Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
* +4 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
* +4 racial bonus on Tumble and Move Silently checks. An Elf may tumble untrained.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Elvish Languages. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
* Favored Class: Cleric, Druid, Fighter, or Ranger. A multiclass elf’s Cleric, Fighter, Druid or Ranger classes do not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Sotharsyl
2009-03-17, 10:02 AM
I think that with all the fluf based qualities elves have ,many writers thougt that as a whole they needed a flaw and extreme pride didn't contradict their other atributes but I always love it when they change the elfs as a whole society/race.
Except when they bring them to resemble too much their mythical origins it's a sort of quirk of mine I can't accept short(elf<=gnome)and or shoe producing elfs.

GoC
2009-03-17, 10:07 AM
It would be better if they actually had stats to back up their fluff. That way they would be seen as not being arrogant, merely stating the facts.
Some dude says "I'm a far better artist than you" to you (a person proud of his very good high-school art) you're going to be very annoyed. You'd be much less annoyed if it was Leonard de Vinci.
You might think that was a bit rude but you wouldn't be hurt.

Talya: Also, give them one level per 50 years of life as a minimum.

EDIT: Yay! I have for once not quoted ANYONE!

Neithan
2009-03-17, 10:11 AM
I think that would actually make people more anoyed.

It's not that elves are megalomanics, what makes people hate them so much. It's the idea that everyone says they are so great and plain better than anyone else. Not in game, but out of it.

Artanis
2009-03-17, 11:21 AM
Unfortunately, one DM i know has a tendency to turn virtually the entire elven nation into a swarming mass of psychotic epic druids who will kill you for chopping down trees.
Does he play Dwarf Fortress (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/), by any chance? :smallbiggrin:

Captain Six
2009-03-18, 08:13 PM
Elves in Tolkien are remarkably courteous and kind. The problem is, they actually are superior to the mortal races, in almost every possible way. This means that elves might give an arrogant appearance, because they literally have to condescend to deal with most mortals. They are willing to do so, and look after the mortal races rather than deal uncharitably with them, but they are superior and they'd have to be stupid not to know it. That doesn't make them arrogant, or lacking in humility. They know where the strength of men lies, and they try to bring it out in them, as men will be the future of Middle Earth, not the elves.

The problem in D&D, is that for game balance reasons, elves are no longer superior. They gave them the same attitude, but took away most of what actually made them better.

If one were to model Tolkien-elves in D&D 3.5, they'd be something like this:

*SNIP*

But elves must be a level adjustment 0 to be played in a standard game. If I'm not mistaken the race that inspired the elves in LotR was also the inspiration of the Gaele in the Monster Manual 3.5. If you want to play one you're in luck, Savage Species has a twenty level racial progression.

...

Yeah.

BRC
2009-03-18, 08:27 PM
I have a personal justification for elves being snooty. It goes something like this.
In Elven Society, age is greatly respected. However, because elves age slowly, it's often difficult to tell how old an elf is just by looking at them. Two elves could have been born a decade or more apart and yet look about the same age. Therefore, in casual conversation, elves try to indirectly establish their age (And therefore, their social standing). They do this, by attempting to seem as intelligent, and therefore as old and experienced, as possible, using big words and complex wit. Also, because elven social standing is age-based, elves, who know the ages of people from other races, subconsciously disrespect them.
In Elven society, somebody 25 years old is a child, who should respect and learn from a 100 year old adult. So when that 100 year old adult elf meets a 25 year old human, they subconsciously consider them a child.

Hmm..What might be a fun character idea is an Elf who is very intelligent and polite, except they don't speak common very well, and so they have a habit of gravitating towards more extreme adjectives. For example, they mean to say somehing like "Let me take a look at those runes, you don't know enough spellcraft to understand them", but it comes out "Let me take a look at those runes, you are too stupid to read them". (They are trying to say the person isn't trained to read runes, so they use the word "Stupid" unaware that it refers to a persons general intellect, not their experience in a given subject).

Collin152
2009-03-18, 08:54 PM
I generally try to avoid constructing racial cultures that fit in with peoples preconceptions; as such, in the world I am currently working on, Elves are a savage race with a bloodthirsty streak a mile wide, almost literally incapable of feeling trust or compassion, whose government is held together entirely by fear of those higher up in it, and who prevents a constant struggle for power by continually waging war on the other races to expand their kingdom.
Also, they're less beautiful; every feature is sharply angular and pointed, and their hair is more like a pack of quills than anything else.

So yeah, no corteous elves with me, but no questionably arrogant ones either.

avr
2009-03-18, 08:58 PM
I think partly it runs like this: Charisma isn't an appearance stat, but it tends to include some level of good looks. Not an absolute, a tendency. Elves are usually depicted as good looking, but in D&D they have no bonus to charisma. So, people balance their mental image of their really good looking elven character (PC or NPC) with negative personality traits as the characters charisma isn't remarkable.