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archmage45
2009-03-16, 09:13 AM
Ok, I remember from about a year ago when Keep on the Shadowfell was released that there was a lot of discussion about what was wrong with the included pre-gen characters. I want to run this as my first 4e experience, and I'd like it to go without any problems caused by poor writing.

I'm also using The Alexandrian's rewrite of the adventure to avoid some of the rules errors that were included.
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/keep-shadowfell/kots-dm.pdf

If you think the pre-gens aren't worth it, do you have some alternate 4e pre-gens that you'd suggest?

Thanks!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 10:51 AM
You could just make your own pre-gens.

Honestly, that is the best answer. The reason the KotS pre-gens are bad is because... well, they're bad; they're poorly made.

Anyone with a little experience with 4E can make better. Heck, if you don't want to make 'em, I'll make 'em for you :smalltongue:

archmage45
2009-03-16, 10:55 AM
It isn't so much that I don't want to, it's that I don't feel qualified to make good choices at this point. I really don't know the system well enough.

So, if you don't mind tossing some PHB only characters my way, I'd really appreciate it!

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 11:25 AM
OK, first of all - what kind of players are you expecting? That'll help me figure out what kind of characters they'd want to play. Oh, and how many players?

A basic "safe" party will be:
- Sword & Board Fighter
- TWF Ranger
- Artful Dodger Rogue
- Lazor Cleric
- Staff Wizard

Making sure you have at least a Defender and a Leader is key, but everything else is pretty much optional.

archmage45
2009-03-16, 11:30 AM
3-5 players, totally inexperienced. The basic safe party looks like a fair place to start.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 12:12 PM
Good! Now here's the fun part - you really can make these on your own.

First of all, use the Standard Array in the PHB - it works for most characters.

Next, use the following notes:
- Dwarven Fighter
STATS: STR 16, WIS 12+2
EQUIPMENT: Battleaxe, Heavy Shield, Scale Mail
FEAT: Dwarven Weapon Training
AT-WILLS: Tide of Iron, Cleave
This gives you a sturdy, but damaging, Defender. Between Tide of Iron, Cleave, and his Basic Attack he's going to feel a lot more flexible than a 3E Fighter - very fun!
- Eladrin TWF Ranger
STATS: STR 16, DEX 14+2, WIS 13)
EQUIPMENT: 2 Longswords, Hide Armor
FEAT: Eladrin Soldier
AT-WILLS: Twin Strike, Hit and Run
An unconventional choice, but interesting. He does pretty consistent damage and, as a bonus, a low-level Ranger will get a lot of usage out of the Eladrin's Teleport Racial Power.
- Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue
STATS: DEX 16+2, CHA 14+2
EQUIPMENT: Dagger, Leather Armor
FEAT: Backstabber
AT-WILLS: Piercing Strike, Sly Flourish
Fairly standard; he will have AC 21 (!) against Opportunity Attacks which will make him feel very comfortable moving around the battlefield. Backstabber will make him really appreciate the 2 dice of Sneak Attack damage, even if it is technically sub-optimal.
- Elven Cleric
STATS: WIS 16+2, CHA 14
EQUIPMENT: Chain Mail
FEAT: Skill Training (Perception)
AT-WILLS: Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame
A solid support role; the training in Perception will give you the party's lookout (a +11 check).
- Half-Elven Staff Wizard
STATS: INT 16, CON 14+2
EQUIPMENT: Staff, Ritual Book, Spell Book
FEAT: Action Surge
AT-WILLS: Magic Missile, Scorching Burst
DILETTANTE POWER: Dire Radiance (Warlock)
A simple build that will turn out to be far tankier than people usually expect 1st level Wizards to be. Plus, Action Surge will be a lot of fun with Burst/Blast attacks

I've only listed the bare requirements for each build; in general 4E doesn't have a lot of traps for character creation. As a DM, it'll do you some good to play around with character creation so that you'll get a feel for the power system before the game. In particular, read up on each race - Racial Powers are pretty strong in 4E.

So, play around with that. If you have any questions, well, there's this thread :smalltongue:

Thajocoth
2009-03-16, 12:57 PM
Keep on the Shadowfell was my first D&D experience. It was good for what it was... I don't know how well my DM followed it though. Our party is Eladrin Wizard (Me), Dwarven Fighter, Dragonborn Warlord, Teifling Star Pact Warlock, Half-Elven Archer Ranger. Since then the Dragonborn left due to time issues and half of us multiclassed cleric. We really had no trouble getting through the place... Except for:

Marking in spoiler tags because it's related to the ending:
A couple of us wound up on the other side of that portal at the end, and all but the Tiefling were unconscious. The place was falling down (no idea if that was in the original or not), so the tiefling through the last of us through the portal and jumped through as well. We landed in the Shadowfell. The DM told us that didn't originally lead to the Shadowfell.

Also, along the way:
There were about 3 or 4 encounters in a barracks area that we wound up doing as 1 long encounter instead. My Flaming Sphere was amazing that fight... Until it set the whole place on fire.

And, lastly:
Most of us point-bought our main stat to 18, which was a 20 after applying the racial bonus. I noticed none of the suggestions above did this...

Hopefully something I said is helpful rather than just random blather about my party's experiences.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-16, 01:09 PM
Most of us point-bought our main stat to 18, which was a 20 after applying the racial bonus. I noticed none of the suggestions above did this...

My main reason is that point buying an 18 can leave you very weak on your Non AC Defenses (NADs) and it limits the scope of your character. Plus, the Standard Array creates perfectly fine characters while minimizing the muss and fuss of point buys; for a novice to the system it is the safest choice.

Also, I didn't include Dragonborn or Tieflings 'cause I think they're dumb. More substantively, their Racial Abilities are far more complex than the other races, which can be overwhelming for starting characters. If you want a Dragonborn, you can swap him in for the Dwarven Fighter. A Tiefling probably works best as the Wizard; Warlocks are a fairly complicated Striker so I wouldn't recommend them for a table of novices.

Awesomologist
2009-03-16, 01:15 PM
You may also want to consider going to WotC Website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome) and download the free version of the Character Builder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/characterbuilder). It will allow you to generate characters up to level 3 which is perfect for Keep on the Shadowfell.
It also comes with about a dozen pre-generated characters of various race/class combinations.

Kol Korran
2009-03-17, 06:19 AM
as a side note. you must be aware the Kots is a fairly bad written module (at least to my opinion, as well as some other gamers), and that is beside the rule stuff and the pregen characters. some things you should be aware of:

- the irontooth encounter is reported to kill at least one player most times. the players just don't expect him to be such of a challenge, especially his damage output and hp.

- the module offers nearly no interesting terrain or battle conditions. most are fiarly standard battle rooms.

- the town is realy, realy porrly sketched. you'd do well to invest some time into livening up the population a bit.

- the characters skills are almost never tested (at most their knowledge skills when they try and identify monsters). there are two skill challanges in the campaign, (negotiation with sir keegan and the ritual at the graveyard) i suggest to try and add various challanges for the party's skills. traps and locked doors for the rogue, hidden doors and treasure for those with perception (maybe even an ambush one night?), maybe some walls to climb or tunnels to swim for those with athletics, a small investigation in town (hidden cultists) for those with interpersonal skills, and so on.

- treasure: i haven't checked it, but the treasures aren't up to the DM suggeted rules (level +1, +2,+3,+4 magic items and so on). and i think that the monetery rewards given are also sub par. i suggest you discard the lot and prepare some on your own. oh, and keegan's sword? lousy daily power, turn it into something usefull, like adding radiant damage or something that will add protection against necrotic influences.

- last thing: rituals. again- almost no place for them in the module. i don't have any idea as how to fix it (rituals being problematic as they are), just be aware your clerci and wizard might get antsy...

however, after saying all that i must say there have been people who turned the module into something quite enjoyable. check out Colmarr's journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104388). his DM watches the thread too (supposedly) so maybe you could contact him and ask him questions. hope this all helped, and wishing you great fun,
Kol.

Angelmaker
2009-03-17, 08:23 AM
A general advise on Shadowfell Keep and the follow up adventueres ( D&D 4 in general ): Donīt be afraid to run away. Leave your players options to run away and drop hints when in your oppinion the group is not prepared for the next encounter ( dailies spent, etc. ).

We ran away 3 times until now in about a dozen gaming sessions. Two of the times it prevented a ( alsmost 100% sure ) total party kill ( the goblin dungeon at the waterfall on the road to what itīs called? Winterhaven? - was the first one and the second the necromancer encounter further down to the south in the follow up adventure. Those hand swarms are pure party killers if played properly by a decent GM. That abomination that does 20 damage on average in a close 3-blast does not help that survival chance..) - the other one time we ran away me ( cleric ) and our warrior stood our ground in an attempt to buy some time for the rest of the party to run away. That was at the Hobgoblins barracks which is designed as two encounters, which simply is not easily noticed. If you take it on in one encounter, the encounter powers will not suffice...

We even had an improvised barricade with us to block half of the barracks, alas it was not enough. Even with dailies, an excellent strategy and fully rested, those barracks hobgolbins tore us apart. Especially awful for the rogue, he couldnīt get off one single combat advantage due to the hogboblin numbers and the narrow corridors. ( narrow corridors: also on the encounter with those dragon beast dogs, itīs a nightmare. When they are close together they get some very hefty bonuses, that most tanks AC will simply make looking laughable. Beware! )

Also the spider in the encounter before the barracks - YOU WILL WANT TO TONE DOWN THAT SPIDER A LOT. That spider moves fast as hell ( on the ceiling, so it can move to the back of your party in an instant ), does not provoke AOO ( shifting 6 spaces ) on move and knocks down on a succesfull attack as well as poisoning everything it hits... That spiders was a close total party kill combined with the shifting hobgoblins that throw 4 attack per rounds on our tank.

We are not a bad group of players, some have decent experience and we have some nifty teamplay, yet those encounters are somewhat unbalanced in my oppinion. D&D 4th is challenging. Itīs difficult to "really die" as a character, but combat in general can lead to a party being beaten to the last man - in nearly every fight in that module.

archmage45
2009-03-17, 08:28 AM
Kol~

Thank you for that link! Great reading, and very inspiring! Also good points about the skills, rituals, and treasure.

I've already either adapted or redrawn many of the encounter locations to include more interesting tactical play.

I wasn't too worried about the town. I can fill in those blanks pretty easily.

Thanks again!

greenknight
2009-03-17, 08:38 AM
I'd recommend the following party, although it does require that the players be willing to work together. If they do, they should be able to handle any reasonable challenge that comes their way.

Dragonborn Fighter
Stats: Str 18 (16+2 racial); Con 14; Dex 14; Int 8; Wis 13; Cha 12 (10+2 racial).
Weapon Talent: Two-Handed Weapons.
At-Wills: Cleave, Reaping Strike (Replace Reaping Strike with Brash Strike if you allow Martial Power).
Encounter: Steel Serpent Strike.
Daily: Villain's Menace.
Feat: Weapon Focus (Axe).
Primary Weapon: Halberd.

You may need to provide some healing, but you'll find this character really makes a difference both on defence and offence. Athletics, Endurance and Heal are good skills for this character to take.

Dragonborn Warlord
Stats Str 18 (16+2 racial); Con 12; Dex 12; Int 8; Wis 12; Cha 18 (16+2 racial).
Commanding Presence: Inspiring.
At-Wills: Furious Smash, Wolf Pack Tactics.
Encounter: Hammer and Anvil.
Daily: Bastion of Defence.
Feat: Shield Proficiency (Heavy) (replace with Improved Inspiring Word if you allow Martial Power).
Primary Weapon: Long Sword.

This Warlord should make your Fighter even better, and is the reason why I think the Fighter can benefit a lot from Weapon Focus. The character should take Charisma based skills to become the main Face.

Elven Ranger
Stats Str 13; Con 14; Dex 18 (16+2 racial); Int 8; Wis 16 (14+2 racial); Cha 10.
Fighting Style: Two Blade (Archer only if there's a chance the character will make it to Paragon).
At-Wills: Twin Strike, Nimble Strike.
Encounter: Fox's Cunning.
Daily: Hunter's Bear Trap.
Feat: Weapon Focus (Bow) or Sneak of Shadows.
Primary Weapon: Long Bow.

This is a fun build. You'll usually get a couple of attacks per round at virtually any foe on the battlefield (allowing you to prune a minion or two along with more sturdy foes). The build is made to allow an enemy to get into melee range, then hit them with Fox's Cunning. Your move rate is fast enough to get away if you need to, and you can just use the Bear Trap to slow fast foes down. Foes restricted to melee will have little chance against this character. Take Dexterity and Wisdom based skills for scouting.

Eladrin Wizard
Stats Str 10; Con 14; Dex 15 (13+2 racial); Int 18 (16+2 racial); Wis 14; Cha 8.
Implement Mastery: Staff.
At-Wills: Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst.
Encounter: Icy Terrain.
Daily: Flaming Sphere.
Feat: Armor Proficiency (Leather).
Primary Weapon: Staff.

I find 4e Wizards tend to be a bit of a drag on most parties, but they can be handy now and again. And never underestimate the usefulness of the Flaming Sphere, even though it is a Daily power. As you'd expect, this character should concentrate on taking Int based skills.

Halfling Rogue
Stats Str 14; Con 11; Dex 18 (16+2 racial); Int 8; Wis 12; Cha 16 (14+2 racial).
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel.
At-Wills: Piercing Strike, Sly Flourish.
Encounter: Dazing Strike.
Daily: Blinding Barrage.
Feat: Warrior of the Wild.
Primary Weapon: Dagger/Sling/Shuriken.

A Drow (from the MM) would be a much better racial choice, if allowed. Ideally, this character will avoid melee as much as possible, but it will almost certainly become necessary in order to gain the all important combat advantage needed for sneak attacks. The character should do excellent damage on a Sly Flourish (the preferred attack), but Piercing Strike is there for foes with a very high AC.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-17, 10:02 AM
I avoided Dragonborn and Warlords because they are relatively complex.

Dragonborn have loads of racial abilities that come up a lot (particularly Rage) which may overwhelm starting players.

Warlords work best if you have a strong background in tactical wargaming; positioning and terrain are basically what make them work. Clerics, on the other hand, usually just provide flat bonuses which are easy to understand. That said, Inspiring Warlords are better than Tactical Warlords here.