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CyberRebirth
2009-03-16, 08:07 PM
Hello GitP

I'm about to start DM'ing a level 15 Gestalt campaign, and I have absolutely no idea how prestige classes work!

On a side note, I plan on eventually using one of the elder evils, which one do you suggest, or have had experiences with?

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:15 PM
PrCs work the same as all other classes in Gestalt with the exception that dual progression classes (like Mystic Theurge, which advances both, arcane & divine casting) is generally not allowed, and you are generally only allowed to advance prestige class on one side at a time. Qualifying tends to be easy as both sides count towards your qualifications as normal. Other than that, there're no major hiccups in running them; just run them like any other class in gestalt.

As for elder evils, I personally favour the Leviathan, but that's simply because I'm a sea-kinda guy and love water, naval campaigns, Stormwrack and all that. Without bias though, I'd say Pandorym and the accompanying Obligatum VII is just awesome.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-16, 08:18 PM
See above. +1 for all of that. Man, you stole all of my ideas! :smallbiggrin:

CyberRebirth
2009-03-16, 08:18 PM
Hey, thats right! I forgot about the Leviathan. One of my PC's Has a Boat xD

Alright, I suppose what I'm really asking is after taking a prestige class would they go up in ALL THREE or just one class, and the prestige class?

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:29 PM
They have two progressions. It's basically two normal characters slammed into one. Just like with normal character, if you take PrC levels, you'll no longer take levels in your previous class. So the side that took the PrC levels will now advance the PrC each level, while the other side advances whatever class the player chooses to advance. Do note that multiclassing is just as free in gestalt as it is in the standard game.

CyberRebirth
2009-03-16, 08:33 PM
so basically a fighter//barbarian 8 that takes frenzied berserker on his barbarian side would end up as a fighter 9 barbarian 8 frenzied berserker 1?

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 08:38 PM
so basically a fighter//barbarian 8 that takes frenzied berserker on his barbarian side would end up as a fighter 9 barbarian 8 frenzied berserker 1?

Correct. You could also be like:

Fighter 2/Barbarian 3/Ranger 3/Frenzied Berserker 1//Monk 2/Rogue 5/Bard 2 (just as an example) - multiclassing is just as simple in Gestalt as it is in the normal game.

Zincorium
2009-03-16, 08:40 PM
Yes, CyberRebirth. But you shouldn't gestalt fighter//barbarian. Or take frenzied berserker (unless you like stubbing your toe and going axe-crazy on your party members).

Obligatory link to SRD entry on gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

If you can't go for synergy, at least go for variety. barbarian//bard or barbarian//druid will be a lot more fun to play than barbarian//fighter and be much more powerful besides.

Dixieboy
2009-03-16, 08:47 PM
Zinconium: Besides, the fluff potential in a Barbarian/Druid is quite good, the most obvious one being a Shamanesque type of guy.

Also Wizards/barbarians (Or sorcerer) FTW, despite the MAD

JoshuaZ
2009-03-16, 08:52 PM
Zinconium: Besides, the fluff potential in a Barbarian/Druid is quite good, the most obvious one being a Shamanesque type of guy.

Also Wizards/barbarians (Or sorcerer) FTW, despite the MAD

MAD matters much less in gestalt than in normal play. Pick one side and emphasize it, and the other side functions more as gravy. Moreover, almost all powerful gestalt combinations have serious MAD issues when you compare them to those that don't have much (bardbarian/fighter and fighter/rogue for example).

CyberRebirth
2009-03-16, 09:00 PM
Heheh, I'll make sure to let my players know that fighter isn't a really high powered gestalt idea.

Thank you for the help, and I would love some ideas on how to incorperate an insane warlock//sorcerer/mindbender into the mix with any of the elder evils?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-16, 09:02 PM
MAD matters much less in gestalt than in normal play. Pick one side and emphasize it, and the other side functions more as gravy. Moreover, almost all powerful gestalt combinations have serious MAD issues when you compare them to those that don't have much (bardbarian/fighter and fighter/rogue for example).Warblade or Wizard or Duskblade or Psion//Factotem or Rogue.

Paladin of Tyrany/Blackguard/Hexblade//Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer or Wilder.

Any full BAB class//Druid or Cleric or PsyWar.

MAD is for those who don't plan ahead(check out the Gestalt Build Challenge for examples).

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 09:08 PM
MAD matters much less in gestalt than in normal play. Pick one side and emphasize it, and the other side functions more as gravy. Moreover, almost all powerful gestalt combinations have serious MAD issues when you compare them to those that don't have much (bardbarian/fighter and fighter/rogue for example).

Nah, the most powerful gestalt combinations are SAD, hence why they are so powerful; they can fully harvest the power of two sides with the same set of stats, thus giving you two maximally powered sides and allowing you to put all level-ups to a single stat without losing anything in the process. MAD characters are going to get diminishing returns from one side (especially since they might fail to attain the basic prerequisites for a class), and improving by levels is much more expensive when you need to fuel a whole bunch of stats instead of focusing on one. This can be somewhat eluded via having an insanely high stat buy (something like a 42 point buy), but even then the increased level-up costs and lack of maximized key stat-issues are there.

The perfect example would be a Wizard//Factotum, a completely Intelligence-focused character with one side focused on applying Int to all rolls and defensive attributes, and one using it for everything offensive (and the passive side granting you improved offensive capabilities too in ignoring Spell Resistance, extra spell per turn, mitigating specialization costs by providing an alternative access to some spells and so on).

Other similar options for strong gestalt include Druid//Cleric (maximizing underling count and using DMM: Persist along with the whole Druid-list and Druid Wildshape to create the real CoDzilla...a horde of them, to be exact), Druid//Unarmed Swordsage/Monk (mostly picking Flurry & feats from Monk), Archivist//Warblade (or Wizard, but Archivist tends to be the stronger source for buffs), Anything Int Focused//Factotum, etc.


EDIT: CyberRebirth, insane Warlock//Sorcerer/Mindbender would fit perfectly for most of them; most have some really powerful caster underlings so just having this said character have his mind broken in a fight with one, and serve his new liege could easily rationalize the said character under any of them.

That said, as Pandorym's shards are extremely powerful Psions, having one of the heroes who thwarted the previous Obligatums having been exposed to such a shard and fallen under Pandorym's control could make for an interesting story.

CyberRebirth
2009-03-16, 09:25 PM
That sounds like an interesting idea Eladriel, though I also need a way to incorperate the evils into an already level 15 campaign. I might need to skip some stuff.

Eldariel
2009-03-16, 09:42 PM
That sounds like an interesting idea Eladriel, though I also need a way to incorperate the evils into an already level 15 campaign. I might need to skip some stuff.

Worry not, the stuff for the elder evils is rather high CR. For example, everything regarding Pandorym is at least CR 20. So the only thing the players have been missing thus far are signs (and you can handwave some connections into the existing story to claim that you've been pointing towards the same evil all along) and they're strictly optional; you can drop the bombshell on them through some NPC in near future and they can begin to prepare for the fight of their lives.

Swooper
2009-03-16, 09:53 PM
Warblade or Wizard or Duskblade or Psion//Factotem or Rogue.
You missed Archivist on the left side there :smallbiggrin:

I'll be playing a gnome archivist//factotum in a new game starting soon... it'll be awesome. :smallsmile:

Samb
2009-03-16, 10:20 PM
psiwarrior//ardent will give you every power worth having and having mental might mantle (+2 WIS for point reserve) will give a huge bonus on power points if you take mantled warrior trait. You will still need EK for schism though, but having free access to metamorphosis, astral construct, and minor creation without using any feats is just plain awesome.

That is still kind of MAD since psiwarrior still needs lots of STR and CON, so telepath//ardent only needs WIS and INT and you really will have every power needed.

Don't know if daring outlaw with a rogue//swashbuckler is legal (I think anything that says "stacks with" is kind of illegal for gestalt) but if your DM allows it you get a rogue's skills, full BAB, bonuses to saves, weapon fitness (now you are SAD) and SA=HD which isn't really broken but pretty darn near it.

The fact that you can't pick something like elocator kind of sucks since anything with "+1 to existing class" is off limits. Is that correct? Or do they just have to be "in the same slot"?

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-16, 11:40 PM
It's easy to make a psychic warrior based on only Int and Wis. Metamorphosis for the win.

Samb
2009-03-17, 12:29 AM
It's easy to make a psychic warrior based on only Int and Wis. Metamorphosis for the win.

Metamorphosis is really all you ever need, well that and metamorphic transfer and overchannel. Ardent was just made for gestalt since it allows for east acces to coveted disipline powers.

Riffington
2009-03-18, 09:50 PM
Heheh, I'll make sure to let my players know that fighter isn't a really high powered gestalt idea.


It's not that fighter isn't good for gestalt, it's that it doesn't synergize with Barbarian. All you have is a Barbarian with feats (not that that sucks, but it isn't astounding). Doesn't add any BAB, skill points, saves, HP, or anything.
Imagine that instead you had a Barbarian//Rogue. Now you'd have extra skill points, and good saves in Fort as well as Reflex. You could raging sneak attack in ways that make bad guys cry - with all the stamina and BAB of a barbarian.
On the other hand, fighter goes just fine with other combos. Put it on a druid, and your druid gets heavy dragonscale armor, full BAB, and feats. Your wildshape is now awesome. Same goes with a swordsage, a scout, a psi, or anything else that has cool combat abilities but lacks full BAB and HP. Actually, feats are always good. A straight up fighter/mage doesn't even suck.

daring outlaw doesn't work properly, since either the rogue side or the swashbuckler side is advancing the sneak attack. If you have Rogue 5/Swashbuckler5//Wizard 10, it gets you up to 10th level sneak attack. But a Rogue 5//Swashbuckler 5 only has 5th level sneak attack.