Uncommon items and knowledge in pseudomedieval fantasy worlds

[Narmoth]

This is a list to post and comment on some things that you think never should, or very well could appear in a generic, Europe-based pseudomedieval world:

Food:
1. Potatoes. They appear first in the works of J.R.R.Tolkien, and have remained since then. Most of the time it doesn't matter.

2. Spaghetti. From China, brought to Europe by Marco Polo. Could exist.

3. Rice. Mostly in the easter parts of our world in the medieval times. Is grown in a vastly different way than corn. If your world has them, you also need rise fields or import

Mostly, corn was used in stead, making bread dumplings in stead of potatoes

Intoxication:
1. Tobacco. Came from South America in late Renaissance, so it could be around in a Renaissance campaign where you also have full plate and simple handguns

2. Most narcotics. The narcotics known in medieval Europe were as far as I know opium and hashish (from which the assassins took their name)

Beverages:
1. Coffe came from arabia to Europe during the crusades, but weren't in wide use until the 17th century.

2. Tea came from China, and was in use in medieval Russia from the 12th or 13th century

[The Neoclassic]

This is a list to post and comment on some things that you think never should, or very well could appear in a generic, Europe-based pseudomedieval world:

Food:
1. Potatoes. They appear first in the works of J.R.R.Tolkien, and have remained since then. Most of the time it doesn't matter.

2. Spaghetti. From China, brought to Europe by Marco Polo. Could exist.

3. Rice. Mostly in the easter parts of our world in the medieval times. Is grown in a vastly different way than corn. If your world has them, you also need rise fields or import

Mostly, corn was used in stead, making bread dumplings in stead of potatoes

OK, major nitpick... Corn is OK but potatoes aren't?! They were both brought over from the New World. You're stuck with wheat, rye, and similar boring things if you want to remain historically accurate.


Intoxication:
1. Tobacco. Came from South America in late Renaissance, so it could be around in a Renaissance campaign where you also have full plate and simple handguns

2. Most narcotics. The narcotics known in medieval Europe were as far as I know opium and hashish (from which the assassins took their name)

Beverages:
1. Coffe came from arabia to Europe during the crusades, but weren't in wide use until the 17th century.

2. Tea came from China, and was in use in medieval Russia from the 12th or 13th century

Accurate, but I'd also add chocolate to the list (it was a drink far before it was eaten as a candy) as it also came from the Americas.

[Neithan]

Or sugar. For the most times, there was only honney and sweet berries. Sugar canes are also from america, unless I'm mistaken.

[Narmoth]

OK, major nitpick... Corn is OK but potatoes aren't?! They were both brought over from the New World. You're stuck with wheat, rye, and similar boring things if you want to remain historically accurate.


Wheat, rye and oat are the types of corn I was thinking of. You are thinking of maize corn, which came from the new world.
I think corn means different things in American English and British English though, so that's must be where this mistake comes from

[The Neoclassic]

Wheat, rye and oat are the types of corn I was thinking of. You are thinking of maize corn, which came from the new world.
I think corn means different things in American English and British English though, so that's must be where this mistake comes from

Indeed! My apologies; I forget that the (sometimes more sensible, I admit) British English is used on these forums as much as American English. We are entirely on the same page then. :smallsmile:

[kamikasei]

Unless your fantasy world is a monoclimate monoculture, there's probably a place for each of potatoes, rice, tobacco etc. to be established crops. Unless the part of the setting where your adventures take place literally doesn't know that those other parts of the world exist, then there's no particularly compelling reason why their products couldn't have been brought over in trade at almost any time in the past.

There are legitimate points to consider around the implications of either importing or transplanting non-native crops and the like, but if they're being considered then it should really be as part of a much broader and deeper analysis of what technologies have what impact on the social, economic and political makeup of a setting. For most purposes, you need little more than to be aware that certain things shouldn't really be assumed to have originated locally, and leave it at that.

(I had a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100781) on this general topic a while back.)

[Fhaolan]

OK, major nitpick... Corn is OK but potatoes aren't?! They were both brought over rom the New World. You're stuck with wheat, rye, and similar boring things if you want to remain historically accurate.


Corn is not quite what you think it is. :) Maize, which many people call corn, is from the Americas. The actual *name* Corn was originally from Europe where it represented all cereal grains. Barley was barleycorn, Shakespeare mentions corn, and then in the second verse substitutes rye for corn. The King James version of the Bible mentions corn, etc.

When Europeans came to the Americas, Maize was grouped with the other corns, and slowly took over the name there. In Europe, you can still get wheat, rye, and barley refered to as 'corn'.

[Narmoth]

Reading:
Yes, a lot of the commoners were illiterate, but:
- In Novgorod (north west Russia) there were found hundreds of birch pages with writings on them, dated to between 1000 AD and 1300 Ad. These were used for letters and notes by the middle class: merchants and craftsmen who made up most of the city's population
- literacy was much more common in the arabian world, where a lot studied the Koran
- The viking runes were also known by many. They were by the way based on Latin letters
- I need to check the facts, but I believe you had an education system in China for most of the population

Thus you could have a society where most people can write their name (with some thinking and great effort) and read simple messages, or you could let the clerics learn anyone willing the basics of reading and writing.


Indeed! My apologies; I forget that the (sometimes more sensible, I admit) British English is used on these forums as much as American English. We are entirely on the same page then. :smallsmile:

Great :smallsmile:

[Another_Poet]

Intoxication:
1. Tobacco. Came from South America in late Renaissance, so it could be around in a Renaissance campaign where you also have full plate and simple handguns

2. Most narcotics. The narcotics known in medieval Europe were as far as I know opium and hashish (from which the assassins took their name)


There are many others in Europe.

Amanita muscara, the infamous red-and-white mushroom from which LSD is made, was used for its hallucinogenic properties from early Europe through to the present day. Violent side-effects though, from what I hear.

Ergot, a fungus that sometimes afflicts grain crops, has strong mind-altering effects. Extremely dangerous, deadly stuff though. Probably not consumed on purpose, at least not often, because it's as likely to kill you as get you high, and its "high" is more like "temporarily stark raving mad."

A wide family of plants including henbane, wolfbane, belladonna, mandrake, and nightshade were in use for heightening awareness, granting visions and enabling out-of-body flight from the ancient Greeks (maybe earlier) through the Middle Ages. Datura, another plant in the family, is a non-European variety (with similar effects) from Mexico and the southern US. These plants were used in mediaeval salves alleged to grant the ability to fly. They may even have been smeared on the rounded end of a well-worn broomstick which would be used as an "applicator" to the, er, "more sensitive tissues" *cough* hence the notion of riding a broomstick to fly.

The nightshade plants are also potentially deadly, but can be survived in the right doses and their hangover is easier to handle than amanita or ergot. It's a simple combo of bad breath, extreme dry mouth, and abdomen-ripping muscle cramps. Or so I hear.

Henbane, one of the weakest of the family of plants (still potentially deadly), was added to beer for many centuries to make it a bit more "potent."

Of course, alcohol itself is the most famous European inebriant, coming from the Middle East in very early times. In early (Bronze & Iron Age) Northern Europe, fermented honey drinks were considered sacred (notice their semblance to liquid sunshine and their flavour of fresh flowers). They may have been restricted to kings and priests in some areas. Mead is the classic fermented honey drink, with variations such as bracket and melomel appearing at different stages of European history.

Fermented grapes (wine) were the sacred drink of choice in ancient Southern Europe, especially given the blood-like hue of red wine. It is still used for this reason in Christian ceremony.

In all areas of Europe, beer was popular from an early stage. Recipes varied widely from place to place but a basic brown ale was pretty common. Black beer (stout) had a strong warrior connotation in nations with a Gaelic background. They "get the blood up" so to speak for a fight.

Hard liquors existed, but were less common until more recent times.



2. Tea came from China, and was in use in medieval Russia from the 12th or 13th century

Technically true, but only with a limited definition of tea. Europe has many tasty and/or medicinal herbs and has been brewing them in hot water for millennia. Mint, raspberry leaf, yarrow, henbane, rue, chamomile, willow.... I could go on and on. The difference is that these were mostly consumed for medical purposes, not as a daily treat/wakeup call. They are what would generally be called "white teas" now, contain no caffeine and in some cases taste awful. The (comparatively) tasty, caffeinated stuff is what came from China - our black, red and green teas in other words.

Of course the truth is that all tea is an acquired taste and some European herbs (mint for starters) are very pleasant to consume. So it's kind of a toss-up.

ap

[Fhaolan]

Technically true, but only with a limited definition of tea. Europe has many tasty and/or medicinal herbs and has been brewing them in hot water for millennia. Mint, raspberry leaf, yarrow, henbane, rue, chamomile, willow.... I could go on and on. The difference is that these were mostly consumed for medical purposes, not as a daily treat/wakeup call. They are what would generally be called "white teas" now, contain no caffeine and in some cases taste awful. The (comparatively) tasty, caffeinated stuff is what came from China - our black, red and green teas in other words.


True. Of course, they wouldn't have been *called* tea, as that's a modern word. The English word you're looking for is 'tisane', which is derived from the Greek ptisane which is just hot barley water. Sticking anything that came (or grew) near in hot water and drinking it for medicinal reasons has been around for millennia in Europe as well as the Orient.

As an interesting note, I've been told on occasion that the invention of gunpowder in the Orient came about because of such a tisane. Some doctor-type had steeped charcoal, sulpher and saltpeter in hot water for a medicine, and then forgot about it and it boiled dry... then *whump*, good-bye kettle. :smallbiggrin:

[MickJay]

Concerning literacy, people who actually needed it, learned to read and write. Novgorod isn't a very good example because it was quite unusual: a trade-based republic where business required people to be literate. Apart from (some) monks and (usually) clergy, merchants were the next major group of people to be literate. Nobles could often afford to avoid learning the "scholarly" skills like writing, while peasants could spend their whole lives without needing to read or write anything (except, perhaps, of making an X on some document).

[Olo Demonsbane]

As an interesting note, I've been told on occasion that the invention of gunpowder in the Orient came about because of such a tisane. Some doctor-type had steeped charcoal, sulpher and saltpeter in hot water for a medicine, and then forgot about it and it boiled dry... then *whump*, good-bye kettle. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, the Chinese had found that adding table salt to charcoal and sulpher made it burn brighter, so they tried multiple versions of salts.

[bosssmiley]

Rare/unattainable mundane items (that we probably wouldn't thing much of now):

The sextant
The reflecting telescope
Precision clockwork
Fine bone china
Glass as a common item
Silk, satins or fine lace
Exotic furs
Tropical fruits
Sugar other than from honey or fruit juice

[ArchaeologyHat]

If the setting is mine, I can put whatever I damn well please in there.

I could have a psudomedieval fantasy world where potatoes were the major food crop and dope was a cash crop for the rich and the nobility. It's my setting, I make the rules. Don't tell me its wrong. I made up that world. If the rest of the setting bar agriculture and some of the wildlife is psudomedieval then its a psudomedieval fantasy setting.

If the setting isn't mine or I am aiming for a historical RPG set in 12th century france feel free to object.

[Narmoth]

If the setting is mine, I can put whatever I damn well please in there.

And this thread denies you that opportunity in what way?

Now, some of us are actually interested in how appropriate certain items and knowledge would be in a given setting, and this thread is for those.

I, for one, found a lot of this information useful, even more since I'm a larper, and would hate to ruin the medieval illusion we create on games by pulling up a time-unapropriate item.