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Fixer
2009-03-17, 12:41 PM
You gave classes that get full BAB an untyped bonus to their BAB equal to their class level and add to that the concept of making precision damage attacks touch attacks. Would that help balance casters and non-casters?

How easily could these be broken (at least, any more than the obvious ubercharger builds already do)? My first idea is that Warblades break the idea so if we remove them specifically for this idea, how would it work?

FMArthur
2009-03-17, 02:01 PM
This would have such wide-reaching and easily broken consequences that I don't even want to think about it for too long. A bonus made directly to your BAB (instead of just AB) sounds like it would add iterative attacks twice as fast, allow power attacking for 20 at level 10, auto-success grappling, etc etc. Precision damage = touch attacks? That means a Rogue denying something its Dex or catching someone flat-footed only ever needs to beat a 10 to hit. This takes chance of failure out of the equation when thinking of any of the numerous ways to make the already existing physical combatants scary. Furthermore, the classes that are not casters and do not have full BAB and do not rely on precision damage get left in the dust with no compensation.

AmberVael
2009-03-17, 02:23 PM
I do not believe this to be a good solution.

To balance casters and non-casters, it isn't that non-casters need more power so much as they need more ways to USE that power. Adding more onto their BAB just ensures that their power goes up and their versatility remains the same, meaning the disparity between being useful and being useless just becomes more obvious for them.

Fighters are already good at just smacking someone with a sword using their BAB. That part doesn't need to be better- what they NEED are more capabilities, so that they don't just have to rely on damage and people being vulnerable to attacks with pointy sticks.

This is why Tome of Battle is so often praised- say what else you will about it, but it offers non-casters a greater amount of options, and so works towards a better class balance.

The Glyphstone
2009-03-17, 02:27 PM
And versus casters, it probably wouldn't do that much...caster's greatest defenses are miss chances and simply not being in a position to get hit. Before they get access to said defenses, fighters have all the offensive oompy they need to turn Mr. Wizard into gooey red paste. After they get it, the fighter is still out of luck.

Like others said, melee needs Options, not just raw dice/numbers.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 04:28 PM
And versus casters, it probably wouldn't do that much...caster's greatest defenses are miss chances and simply not being in a position to get hit.

I don't know, I've figured out the best defense is usually a Prismatic Spray... or seven.

Flickerdart
2009-03-17, 04:41 PM
I don't know, I've figured out the best defense is usually a Prismatic Spray... or seven.
The caster's best defense is a good offense, yes, and it starts with Colour Spray and Sleep.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 04:48 PM
The caster's best defense is a good offense, yes, and it starts with Colour Spray and Sleep.

By the time you get Prismatic Spray, doesn't Sleep kinda... suck?

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-17, 05:08 PM
Hence why it starts with it, not simply is it.

The Rose Dragon
2009-03-17, 05:09 PM
Oh. I thought you started the combat with it, rather than your career as a wizard.

My mistake. :smallredface:

Person_Man
2009-03-18, 10:30 PM
Although I highly respect your idea, I don't think it would work. The fundemental difference between casters and non-casters is that casters have far more resources.

A 10th level caster has 16-20 different things that they can do. And if you select your spells correctly, each of those things will be powerful in some way.

A 10th level melee class has maybe 2-6 different things he can do. And unless he invests all of his resources into 1-3 different things, his options will all basically be ridiculously weak when compared to a caster or more optimized melee class.

Now this isn't universally true. I think Tome of Battle solved the imbalance pretty well. The Psychic Warrior, Totemist, and Binder are all pretty rockin as well, and a Knight has some good options too. Leadership solves any imbalance problem, especially when a Paladin takes it. And a caster can always choose to tone down his spells. But without comparable resources, you're never going to achieve balance. (So if balance is your goal, I suggest you look at 4E).

bosssmiley
2009-03-19, 08:34 AM
You gave classes that get full BAB an untyped bonus to their BAB equal to their class level and add to that the concept of making precision damage attacks touch attacks. Would that help balance casters and non-casters?

I'm afraid that this would change the balance of power by precisely 0.000000%.

Fly and wind wall alone (let alone any semi-sophisticated caster tricks) make the vast majority of full BAB classes worthless. Your suggestion - although admirable in intent - does nothing to redress the balance.

As the "Pathfinder" braytest (sic) showed, just giving the beatstick boys bigger numbers don't fix the fact that, as written, the Core full BAB classes in 3E do nothing that is level appropriate after about 10th level. They don't control the battlefield. They don't deny actions. They don't inflict status effects. They don't get to play half the game.

Fix that gaping hole (*cough* Tome Series *cough* Meta-martial feats *cough* ToB) and we can talk meaningfully about caster/noncaster imbalance.