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Myou
2009-03-17, 03:35 PM
I'm modifying the spell point variant for spellcasting for my campaign.
( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Spell_Points )

Would it be inbalancing to allow spells whose damage increases with caster level to be cast at their full caster level as in the normal rules, instead of it costing extra spell points to do so?

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-17, 03:49 PM
Would it be inbalancing to allow spells whose damage increases with caster level to be cast at their full caster level as in the normal rules, instead of it costing extra spell points to do so? not too likely, spellpoints as is favor the Batman Wizard even more, so making blasting a little better does make it more cost effective, question is whether it's worth it even then.

Myou
2009-03-17, 04:06 PM
not too likely, spellpoints as is favor the Batman Wizard even more, so making blasting a little better does make it more cost effective, question is whether it's worth it even then.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, but if that's the case why is that limit even included?

Glimbur
2009-03-17, 04:37 PM
Spell points make magic more like psionics, so I'd assume there's some precedent in that rule set for spending more points for more damage.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-17, 04:49 PM
Spell points make magic more like psionics, so I'd assume there's some precedent in that rule set for spending more points for more damage. The problem is however, that batman spells don't need you to sink as many points into them: Glitterdust lasting 5 rounds is probably more than enough to ensure the demise of the enemy, whereas a fireball needs the full amount of spell points to be effective.

Another issue is the fact that casters get to cast more spells of their highest level, which for Arcane and Divine spells is too good.

Fizban
2009-03-18, 10:34 PM
I refer you to the last spell point thread we had, at least that I noticed: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5844553#post5844553).

And my relevant post:

The first thing you have to do with spell points is force prepared casters to allot their spell points when they prepare their spells. None of this "I prepare a list then choose what to cast, becoming infinitely better than a sorcerer" crap. Prepared casters divide up their spell points into a set of prepared spells the same way they would prepare their spell slots. Or, now that I think of it, you could impose a "unique spells per day" limit similar to the Erudite, but I'd then impose a similar xp cost to learn spells beyond what you gain for leveling, to help slow codex creep.

After that, I'd modify all damage dealing spells to gain +1 DC with every 2 effective caster level increases, and remove the dice caps. So for the fireball example, it would cost 5 points (6 for sorcerer) and deal 5d6 (6d6 for sorcerer), with the augment "for every extra spell point spent, increase damage by +1d6, and for every +2d6 add +1DC". This makes damaging spells behave like damaging powers, letting the DC scale up so that spending enough points for a level 5 effect on a level 3 spell will at least get you the level 5 DC.

There are plenty of powers that don't have many augmentations, so there's no need to make sure every spell has one. I'd suggest as a base line that you either change basic damage spells like fireball and lightning bolt to let you choose your energy type, or add some sort of extra effect. The bull rush and explosive ideas are good, as would be extra targets or area chunks. Powers usually don't give you extra damage with these, so it'd be more like "for an extra 2 spell points, you can make the fireball explosive...", meaning you'd sacrifice damage for niftiness, and meaning that higher level spells still have a use (most begin to have extra effects that in this case would be effectively free compared to a lower level spell with augmentation, giving you more damage). Buffs would probably have options to increase their base duration/level and add extra targets and some spells would have options to decrease their casting times. Basically just browse through the psionic powers for inspiration, and take note of the changes they made for psionic (spell name).

Finally, you'll want to reduce spells known to compare to the psion/erudite. The wizard should be fine, since he's either locked into preparation as usual, or using the erudite's own mechanics (heck, with the convert spell to power web enhancement ability, they might as well be the same already). I think I once counted up the sorcerer's spells known, or maybe spell levels known, and found that he compared to the psion, so you could rip the numbers off the psion and call it good. Maybe a little boost to make up for spells that clash with the augment system, though they're more likely to make him more powerful instead of setting him back.

Essentially, if you want to do spell points right, you'll have to retcon a lot of the system by reverse engineering it from psionics, assuming you don't just file the serial numbers off psionics and use them instead. I don't think it would be too bad since you can just make judgement calls on most of the spells if you want to augment them. Adding more extreme augments like bull rushing lighting bolts and explosive fireballs would be a good way to differentiate them from psionics, which have more low-key augmentations most of the time, and would make up for being stuck with a single energy type (which is another restriction that would keep the two distinct).

Other things to do to make the direct damage evocations useful again: You could drop the SR for them, since half the reason conjuration does it better is because they don't have SR. I'd also suggest some sort of low priced way to get past energy resistance in general for any blaster. So many outsiders have resistance to basically everything that you need some way to beat it, and the Scorching Heat/Piercing Cold metamagic feats cost +2 levels each. I can't think of anything that wouldn't seem like a clumsy tack on, but you could have evocations ignore some amount of energy resistance, up to CL or spell level for example. Maybe evocations are affected by SR, but penetrate resistance instead, making the choice between conjuration and evocation a bit murkier damage wise.

More suggestions for augmented effects, apply to appropriate spells as needed, compare to psioncs for balance: trip (cylinders, rays), blown to edge of effect on failed save (any area), bull rush (rays), daze, stun, slow, immobilize, check, greased area (DC 10 or more balance check when moving or fall and more), area covered in light/dense rubble, save penalties, dazzle, blind, deafen, entangle, fatigue, exhaust...now I'm basically just moving down the conditions list from the DMG. Why not blown away (blown back 1d6x5', taking 1d6 damage per 10' travelled)? Some are piddly inconveniences, and some are staples of battlefield control. I'd suggest no more than one or two choices per spell, and no other options besides more damage. Basically what you're doing is giving a slight control option to the blasting spells by letting the caster trade some of his damage for a light debuff.

Edit: following the above poster's idea, you could instead increase damage. Adding +primary casting stat per die would probably be too much, but you could assign non primary mental stats to the classes for their damage, or make it static. Adding +1 per spell level to each die doesn't sound to bad compared to some of the bigger con scores out there. I think I actually like the apply con bonus to hp once idea better though.

Also, that went wall of text fast. Sorry.