OOTS #638 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MammonAzrael

2009-03-18, 04:50 PM

That was fantastic. I wonder what kind of Dragon V is...?

I just wish V hadn't taken out the forums along with the ABD. :smalltongue:

A dramatic end for the dragon. Now the rules lawyers among us are going to point out this is entirely impossible by D&D rules. All enlargement/shapechanging spells are limited by the size of the “room” and do not allow the subject of the spell to change enough to damage the room or himself. [Too many players were having too much fun with such nonsense.]

Not according to the SRD. enlarge person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) certainly has that restriction (and even then you get a Strength check to burst the enclosure), but alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm), polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), and shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) do not have that restriction. And even if they do, they would still probably get a strength check to burst the confining space, which I would assume Dragon-V made with ease.

Nerdanel

2009-03-18, 04:51 PM

Finally the board is up again and I can pop in to say that the comic was awesome.

I wonder, however, what type of dragon V changed into. I wonder if this is a joke pointing out how dragons come in every conceivable hue... save for pink. I know of no pink dragons. The closest matches I can think of are the amethyst dragon, the purple dragon, and an inexplicably faded red dragon, but none of them really fit. Though with the loads and loads of obscure dragons, I cannot rule out every one of them.

Also, I think the strip has supporting evidence for the idea that V now has the Fiendish template. I think the Finger of Death was stopped by spell resistance (not conveyed by Protection from Spells, which does a different thing). Also V might have benefited from damage reduction in addition to having saved for half damage in the first panel.

Yep, I have obviously had time to think about this...

petersohn

2009-03-18, 04:55 PM

Heh, heh. Pink dragon. If V weren't pink enough, then now it is.

Mr. Pin

2009-03-18, 04:57 PM

WHOA! What a comic! it had the whole shebang- epic spell-slinging, a great finish, and a scary title.

those are some brave kids, huh? broken legs and all, and they're just crying a little. I'd be screaming and bawling if I was a kindergartener AND a dragon's lunch.

And I'll be the first to say that the pinkness indicates V's femininity. :smallsmile:

Nevitan

2009-03-18, 04:58 PM

Exploding Dragon = awesome.

Also: I think V's mate might suspect that it's actually V.

Trixie

2009-03-18, 04:59 PM

So, what race of dragons is pink, has black eyes and has such horns?

I feel 'hilarity ensues' moment coming with forces alarmed by an appearance of the evil dragon finally arriving in force to combat the threat :smalltongue:

Porthos

2009-03-18, 05:01 PM

Flawless Victory...
FATALITY!
Vaarsuvius Wins! :smallcool:

motub

2009-03-18, 05:01 PM

Well.

That was certainly... definitive.

I'm glad V's enragement strategy worked to get the dragon to attack hir rather than the family.

I'm sorry that the dragon died in such an awful way.

But... dang, that whole pwnage was so (incredibly) cool that I totally get what V was after in hir (side)quest for Ultimate Arcane Power.

It was so unbelievably cool that they haven't invented words to express the true coolness of the entire sequence.

Gotta say, shi may be Evil now (or shi may not; I notice that it didn't seem like shi used any Epic or Evil powers), but dang, V rocked the house. If that didn't satisfy hir need to "not fail", nothing will.

However, one must tear oneself away from the blazing glory of this shining moment to remember that there is yet another shoe to drop.

Actually, several... the family's reaction, the fiends' payment, and of course V's own reaction-- will shi give up the splice now that shi's tasted the power shi so craved? And if not (I mean, who could give that up, after you bloody shapechanged into a dragon from inside the stomach of a dragon, and it worked?), what will that mean to hir and the rest of hir life/relationships?

Wow. Just.... wow.

And on a side note, who was the dragon speaking to when she yelled for "Silence! (I will eat you ALIVE)"? V wasn't talking... the splices were talking... in V's mind... weren't they?

I'm a little worried about that.... or I would be, if I wasn't so overcome with ego gratification on V's behalf. That was, after all, unspeakably cool, what shi did.

Ikialev

2009-03-18, 05:02 PM

harami2000

2009-03-18, 05:02 PM

Trixie

2009-03-18, 06:58 PM

Another thought - what happened to Vragon's rear legs and tail? There is certainly no space for them in the remaining part of the black dragon? :smallconfused:

And, uh, again, as with AMF the spell can work the described way, so no cigar for rule haters :smalltongue:

T-O-E

2009-03-18, 07:00 PM

I was worried when I first saw the title. The last panel was a pleasant surprise.

Porthos

2009-03-18, 07:02 PM

A dramatic end for the dragon. Now the rules lawyers among us are going to point out this is entirely impossible by D&D rules. All enlargement/shapechanging spells are limited by the size of the “room” and do not allow the subject of the spell to change enough to damage the room or himself. [Too many players were having too much fun with such nonsense.]

Can you back that up for me, David? :smallsmile: Coz (following the discussion on another board) I can't find anything in the rules to back up your statement.

It would appear that neither Shapechange, nor Polymoprh, nor Alter Self say anything of the sort of being confined to a space you are within.

Here are the following links:

SRD: Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm)
SRD: Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) (which Shapechange is based on)
SRD: Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) (which Polymoprh is based on)

The closet things that you are describing is in Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/EnlargePerson.htm):

If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.

So all V had to do was make a Strength Check (in his new form, natch) to burst out of the Dragon, Alien style. As for the second sentence, that refers to the creature that is getting bigger (V in this case) and not the creature that is being ripped apart from the inside.

And while there may be some Sage Advice or FAQ ruling (or one in the Rules/Spells Compendium from WotC) that says differently, nothing in the core rules stops V from doing what he did in this past strip.

At least as far as I can tell. :smallcool:

Zherog

2009-03-18, 07:04 PM

Why use a Delayed fireball? Time is frozen, I don't think it would matter.

There's two reasons - one better than the other.

A) You can't affect your opponent during a time stop. But you can most certainly call into existence a delayed blast fireball and have it set to explode right after the time stop ends.

B) Delayed blast fireball does more damage than a plain fireball.

V did it because of A. B is just the candy sprinkles on top of the sundae. :smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11

2009-03-18, 07:04 PM

I think, in this case, rules can be ignored for awesomeness's sake.

Salty

2009-03-18, 07:04 PM

Epic!!! I can't wait to see what happens next! Dun dun DUN!!! Also, I was really impressed with the misleading title. Awesome!

bluedolphin359

2009-03-18, 07:04 PM

Wow. Talk about an emotional comic. From the title (which scared the crap out of me), to the Time Stop usage, to the family's reaction, to the final panel. Everything was brilliantly done.

Now, I hope V flies away, and then transforms back, loses the splice, walks in and embraces hir family. I doubt this, for a number of reasons, but I can still hope.

osyluth

2009-03-18, 07:06 PM

Flawless Victory!

malakim2099

2009-03-18, 07:11 PM

Very nice work. Would have said it last night, but yeah... forums, they aren't so hot.

Now, I haven't done serious 3.5 in a little while, but I think V might have a touch more control than suspected, judging from spell selection.

I don't think any conjuration and necromantic spells were used. Nor did s/he do the Sorcerer Spam Spell technique. I'm hopeful s/he might be able to put the Soul Splice down.

I hope.

(Because even if s/he does... s/he still owes soul-time to the IFCC.) :smallamused:

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2009-03-18, 07:11 PM

Well done! However, you took the forums down the second I tried to post in them :P

silvadel

2009-03-18, 07:13 PM

What gets me is how powerful time stop was for V...

8 nice defensive spells turning an eminently killable mage into a black dragons worst nightmare.

moxproxy

2009-03-18, 07:13 PM

...

I think my brain just melted...

I guess we've got yet another high mark for this comic. I need a shower.

Silverraptor

2009-03-18, 07:15 PM

Ding Dong! The Dragons Dead! Which Dragon? The Ancient Black Dragon!

Truly spectacular stuff! Nearly had a heart attack and a stroak at the same time when I saw the title. But then I realized it was the V as a pink dragon victory. And finally, I lave those voices, even the dragon could hear them! Their just as good as the demon roaches. Pointer of Pointlessness, classic!:smallbiggrin:

silvadel

2009-03-18, 07:17 PM

Oh and by far my fav line was Pointer of Pointlessness for the dragons finger of death.

Six attacks per round doesnt seem like such a good idea was also pretty snarky.

Achilles

2009-03-18, 07:21 PM

This comic was totally freakin' sweet. 'Nuff said.

Victor Thorian

2009-03-18, 07:21 PM

That's power.

Assassin89

2009-03-18, 07:25 PM

I wonder what will happen to the children. As evil beings are allowed to love, the family might survive, but unless there is an unexpected plot twist, V has no more reasons to work about the safety of the children and her mate.

Finwe

2009-03-18, 07:27 PM

WHOA! What a comic! it had the whole shebang- epic spell-slinging, a great finish, and a scary title.

I didn't see any epic spells....

[quote]And I'll be the first to say that the pinkness indicates V's femininity. :smallsmile:/QUOTE]

And Lien is a man because of the blue hair.

Surfing HalfOrc

2009-03-18, 07:29 PM

That was certainly Epic! But now we have the consequences...

Will V (always arcane power hungry) walk away from the power s/he currently wields? Or will s/he snap at hir mate and children when they ask what happened to hir?

As Mr. Spock once said, "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
:smallannoyed:

I'm in the camp that says things won't end well for V. Of course, I figured Therkla would find someone else after Elan decided to remain loyal to Haley...

Llama231

2009-03-18, 07:30 PM

The only pink dragons that I can think of are prismatic dragons.

Xorbon

2009-03-18, 07:34 PM

Did anyone else notice:

Qaar: "What was that? I couldn't understand."

Purple-Eyed Guy: "I think he said..."

...!?!

Do we finally know V's gender?!!

Porthos

2009-03-18, 07:35 PM

The only pink dragons that I can think of are prismatic dragons.

Well you see, when a red dragon and a white dragon love each other very much..... :smalltongue:

Did anyone else notice:

Qaar: "What was that? I couldn't understand."

Purple-Eyed Guy: "I think he said..."

...!?!

Do we finally know V's gender?!!

Did you read the previous strip where one of the other IFCC guys called V a "she"? :smallwink:

bluedolphin359

2009-03-18, 07:38 PM

Did anyone else notice:

Qaar: "What was that? I couldn't understand."

Purple-Eyed Guy: "I think he said..."

...!?!

Do we finally know V's gender?!!

Um… Every time a character refers to V with a certain gender, this seems to happen. Check the last comic, where V was called she. They may be fiends, but they don't seem to know more than the rest of us.

Sgeo

2009-03-18, 07:41 PM

I just noticed. It seems the dragon could hear the voices of the other three souls. I guess I had assumed they were only in Vaarsuvius' head.

What if things that hear the souls assume it's Vaarsuvius? What happens if Vaarsuvius approaches eir family and the souls start talking, and the family assumes it's V saying evil things?

zero

2009-03-18, 07:42 PM

Awsome work Giant.

Now, one question...

Black Dragons have Swallow Whole?

Azazel

2009-03-18, 07:42 PM

Clever title. It messed with a lot of people.
It'll be fun to see where this leads...

jpnuar1

2009-03-18, 07:43 PM

See, this is why you unambiguously set your terms before engaging in a wizard's duel. She never said "no pink dragons," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN5XHUw_l8I) did she?

Ah, thank you! I knew the pink dragon had to be a play on something or another but couldn't think of what. That helped a lot. Still though, did anyone recognize whether V's horns are from any established color/hue of dragon in "real" D&D? I don't follow closely enough to know for myself which dragons have what wings/horns...

Also... DANG, this must've been a heck of an update; the forum was down for almost an entire day once it got posted!

Xorbon

2009-03-18, 07:48 PM

Um… Every time a character refers to V with a certain gender, this seems to happen. Check the last comic, where V was called she. They may be fiends, but they don't seem to know more than the rest of us.

Heh. Good point. :smalltongue:

Maybe I was just a little too hopeful for an answer. :smallbiggrin:

harami2000

2009-03-18, 07:49 PM

The only pink dragons that I can think of are prismatic dragons.
Hmm... I do hope that doesn't start a new trend. Purple, violet and orange dragons in the original Blackmoor campaign, but no pink 'uns that I can see.
Might be not canon, but exploded rather nicely in this instance. :smallwink:

Well you see, when a red dragon and a white dragon love each other very much..... :smalltongue:
*rofl*. Gender- /and/ species- ambiguous? Cool...:smallcool:

Badend

2009-03-18, 07:53 PM

dragongirl13

2009-03-18, 07:54 PM

:smalleek:

Okay... this comic was just pure awesome. A big pink and purple dragon coming bursting out of a big black one... that... is one of the most epic things I have ever seen.

Aaaaawwweeesssooommmeee. :smallamused:

Still, I wonder how V's family will react.

Marzie

2009-03-18, 07:54 PM

Hot damn, evil Vaarsuvius is so cool. I ab-so-lute-ly loved this comic, great battle scene. V's evil voices are so awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Starknight

2009-03-18, 07:59 PM

Concerning the last panel: Squick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Squick):smallyuk:

I dont think that V is out of the woods yet. I'm glad that Otherparent and the kids are alright, but I would still like to see V get soem comeupance.

raphfrk

2009-03-18, 07:59 PM

There's two reasons - one better than the other.

A) You can't affect your opponent during a time stop. But you can most certainly call into existence a delayed blast fireball and have it set to explode right after the time stop ends.

B) Delayed blast fireball does more damage than a plain fireball.

V did it because of A. B is just the candy sprinkles on top of the sundae. :smallbiggrin:

Could V have set 8 of them (560 damage average assuming each one counts as cast by someone level 20+)? Granted it wouldn't have been as cool as the actual strategy :p.

raphfrk

2009-03-18, 08:01 PM

harami2000

2009-03-18, 08:05 PM

The fire shield would probably do 15+1d6 damage per bite.
Beats swallowing whole and suffering severe indigestion. :smalltongue:

Mars

2009-03-18, 08:12 PM

Awesome comic.

I think V is still a chick. If you look at other parent. It looks more like a he. also doesn't have tiny breasts. Plus mother protecting the young. pink dragon.

Warren Dew

2009-03-18, 08:15 PM

The closest matches I can think of are the amethyst dragon, the purple dragon, and an inexplicably faded red dragon, but none of them really fit.

Amethyst dragons seem to me to fit unspliced Vaarsuvius pretty well.

I kind of wish the "these aren't the four words" folks had convinced me before this strip. It was an awesome battle, but it would have been even better if I'd been in doubt about the outcome.

Quistar

2009-03-18, 08:16 PM

::singing:: "Little pink dragons...for you and me..." :smallbiggrin:

After all the song references, I just couldn't resist...though in this case it was a much bigger dragon....

Now someone has to compose a V song to the tune of "Puff the Magic Dragon!"

- Andrew <:-(}

Zevox

2009-03-18, 08:17 PM

Great comic. I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the title, though. :smalltongue:
Ditto. The comic was loading up slowly for me, so all I saw at first was the title, and that really made me fear that the predictions of the Dragon offing V's family before V could stop her had come true.

Anyway, looks like V just got one hell of a Crowning Moment of Awesome (as the TV tropes obsessed folks like to call it). Now we get to see the aftermath. How long will V keep ahold of the splice? How will her family react? This is going to be interesting...

Zevox

Eleutherius

2009-03-18, 08:17 PM

I think V is still a chick. If you look at other parent. It looks more like a he. also doesn't have tiny breasts. Plus mother protecting the young. pink dragon.

You are assuming that they are in a heterosexual relationship. And that pink = Girl. Ahem "Real men wear pink" :smallwink:

Quistar

2009-03-18, 08:23 PM

Um… Every time a character refers to V with a certain gender, this seems to happen. Check the last comic, where V was called she. They may be fiends, but they don't seem to know more than the rest of us.

Like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop, the world may never know...

- Andrew <:-(}

gabado

2009-03-18, 08:23 PM

OMFG! epic!

Rich that is surly one of your best yet.

raphfrk

2009-03-18, 08:24 PM

Also... DANG, this must've been a heck of an update; the forum was down for almost an entire day once it got posted!

Erfworld also had comics posted with a major deus ex machine or chekhov's gun (depending on your opinion).

TedEBearNC

2009-03-18, 08:28 PM

"Six attacks per round doesn't seem like such a good idea, does it?" LMAO :smallbiggrin:

Great comic! The title scared me a bit too when I first saw it. :smalleek:

Now to see what happens with the family.

Mars

2009-03-18, 08:28 PM

You are assuming that they are in a heterosexual relationship. And that pink = Girl. Ahem "Real men wear pink" :smallwink:

i assuming that it is a heterosexual relationship because they have children and i am assuming that the children are not adopted.

only metros and buff gym dudes on roids wear pink. tho you can say V is on some kind of roids at the moment

Berserk Monk

2009-03-18, 08:33 PM

Nice work giant. The title is totally misleading. I actually thought V was doomed until I read it. Nice use of shapechange, although I'm not sure if that's how it works. I know with some transmutation spells that increase size, if you're being confined you have to make a strength check or stop growing. Don't know the exact rules on shapechange though. Still nice comic. I think this is my favorite strip so far. The sexy shoeless god of war (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) has finally been dethroned.

Zevox

2009-03-18, 08:38 PM

i assuming that it is a heterosexual relationship because they have children and i am assuming that the children are not adopted.
Er, but we know the children are adopted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html).

:vaarsuvius: "An hour?!? My adopted progeny will be long dead by then, imp!"

only metros and buff gym dudes on roids wear pink. tho you can say V is on some kind of roids at the moment
You make the mistake of assuming that perception of color as indicative of sex is universal. It is not. In fact, perceiving pink as being associated with females (as well as its reverse counterpart of blue with males) is a very recent thing (started early last century) and even in the real world restricted mostly to one type of culture (western). It's foolish to simply assume this carries over into any fantasy world, and doubly so when it comes to non-human races, whom we have no reason to assume share human cultural perceptions, whether from our world or theirs.

Zevox

Estelindis

2009-03-18, 08:40 PM

Holy boop! :smalleek: The comic title had me expecting V to get handed a slice of humility with a side order of whup-ass, but that expectation was soon dispelled. So long, Ancient Black Dragon. We hardly knew ye. Yet V as dragon looks incredibly cool.

Now, hopefully V will be able to assist the mate and children quickly...

Mars

2009-03-18, 08:47 PM

Er, but we know the children are adopted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html).

:vaarsuvius: "An hour?!? My adopted progeny will be long dead by then, imp!"

You make the mistake of assuming that perception of color as indicative of sex is universal. It is not. In fact, perceiving pink as being associated with females (as well as its reverse counterpart of blue with males) is a very recent thing (started early last century) and even in the real world restricted mostly to one type of culture (western). It's foolish to simply assume this carries over into any fantasy world, and doubly so when it comes to non-human races, whom we have no reason to assume share human cultural perceptions, whether from our world or theirs.

Zevox

Oh i did not realise that they were adopted.

I don't get how early century is recent. define recent for me.

How can my assumption be foolish. When what you are making is exactly that, an assumption that things don't carry into the fantasy world. The comic is made by a person who isn't an elf and can use personification on any other race, it's known to happen before you know.

Morgan Wick

2009-03-18, 08:52 PM

'How many times do I have to tell you, "Chew your food…"'? So much for a mother's advice… ^^
Somewhat disappointingly rookie mistake from the scaly one, IMHO: put it down to a stressful situation? :)

Perhaps all the shields? ("I will eat you ALIVE, flames or no flames!") Or are you referring to the act of eating her in general?

Now I'm absolutely dreading 639... I can barely stand to read 527 and I suspect 639 will be similar...

snafu

2009-03-18, 08:55 PM

I don't get how early century is recent.

Not American by any chance, are we? Early last century is only about a hundred years ago after all. Anyway 'recent' is defined relative to the timescales in question: 'recent' videogames are ones that came out no earlier than last Thursday, 'recent' geological events might have happened only a million years ago. Compared to the timescales on which other standard gender norms have existed, 'pink = girl' is indeed pretty recent, along with other things like the tradition of a diamond for a wedding ring (for which you can thank De Beers - who had the sense to include a guideline price range in their entirely artificial tradition), or the Christmas tree which IIRC was introduced to the English-speaking world by Victoria.

Anyway, if you think wearing pink makes someone a girl, tell it to Vegeta. He's a BAD MAN.

TheSummoner

2009-03-18, 08:56 PM

As a man, this comic has made me even more thankful that I am incapable of bearing children...

Neuromancer

2009-03-18, 08:56 PM

I think he became a deep dragon.

http://www.dragnix.net/Role_Playing/deep_drg.gif

That seems to fit the color scheme, anyway.

Sotris

2009-03-18, 09:05 PM

Ok, so here's my shot at a prediction:

Aarindarius was secretly keeping an eye on V's family, as he knows that the road to arcane wisdom has dangers for both the student and those near him. When he is informed of a dragon attack on V's village, he teleports there just after V's victory. Seeing him close to Parent and the kids, he thinks V himself is the dragon, and immediately attacks him.
Irritated by the attack, and perhaps having his old inferiority complex surface, V doesn't change form, but hides his identity and fights him (perhaps he rationalizes it by supposedly intending to reveal who he is after giving his old master a good showing to).
But Aarindarius is a formidable opponent, and fights with all his skills. V initially takes a beating, and finally gives into his rage and concealed jealousy (and the Voices, of course), uses the extent of his power on his mentor, and completely destroys him.

Then he realizes what he has done.

Not very original, I know, but I really have my spider sense tingling about this.

Endarire

2009-03-18, 09:05 PM

Finally, V shows his uber arcane power!

I hoped he'd use a bunch of Delayed spells like delayed blast fireball to down the dragon without it touching V, but this is perhaps more amusing.

Mando Knight

2009-03-18, 09:07 PM

When what you are making is exactly that, an assumption that things don't carry into the fantasy world.

Well, not everything does. Some things do, but a world based on D&D rules and the whims of three full pantheons of deities can't be assumed to be similar to our world, with our lack of magic but with complex mathematics underlying our world's base mechanics. They've got magic spells and massive monstrous beings that can fly despite lacking appropriately sized wings and airspeed for their bulk. It's an obviously late medieval to Renaissance era analogue world, but has things that emulate, replace, or displace current tech, and strong female characters that have as many rights as the males. They've got characters with naturally purple, green, and blue hair colors. You can't assume that cultural archetypes and trends carry over to this world at a one-to-one basis.

Zherog

2009-03-18, 09:11 PM

Could V have set 8 of them (560 damage average assuming each one counts as cast by someone level 20+)? Granted it wouldn't have been as cool as the actual strategy :p.

Yes, she could, assuming that the splice provided her with four castings of delayed blast fireball and four castings of quickened delayed blast fireball.

In the end, I think what Rich picked was far cooler. :smallwink:

harami2000

2009-03-18, 09:14 PM

Perhaps all the shields? ("I will eat you ALIVE, flames or no flames!") Or are you referring to the act of eating her in general?
Just a darned stupid action (and to have presumed victory thus) from a previously cunning adversary. Can't think of anything else other than putting that down to the "heat of the moment".
After having built up my opinion of the foe, I shall now sneer disdainfully at the next ABD I encounter.*

* (and then run like heck)

Donald

2009-03-18, 09:15 PM

Obviously V turned into a white dragon and the pink is.......from the inside of the black dragon, shall we say?

I think everyone can hear the bound souls voices.

As for speculating to what's next, I think V's spouse & the kids will be afraid and reject V, semi fulfilling the Dragons plan to make V know what it feels like to lose a child. This will be help by V keeping the extra power.

perceiving pink as being associated with females ... is a very recent thing (started early last century) and even in the real world restricted mostly to one type of culture (western). It's foolish to simply assume this carries over into any fantasy world,

But not so foolish when the strip is written by a Western male living in recent times.

Finwe

2009-03-18, 09:22 PM

also doesn't have tiny breasts. [quote]

Neither does V.

[quote]Plus mother protecting the young.

Are you implying that men are incapable of feeling enough affection for their children to try to save their lives?

Cifer

2009-03-18, 09:23 PM

See, this is why you unambiguously set your terms before engaging in a wizard's duel. She never said "no pink dragons," did she?
That one was pretty clear, though after thinking a while about the comic... it seems V actually managed to be both sides of the duel: V turned into the pink dragon and defeated V's enemy by being much smaller and entering it (ok, Merlin's solution may have been less R-rated...).

Razaele

2009-03-18, 09:24 PM

Wow. Now see, that? That was rumbleworthy. :smallbiggrin:

Also, is it just me, or did the Ancient Black Dragon hear the souls from V's soul splice? :smallconfused:

Jarrick

2009-03-18, 09:25 PM

V-Dragon is pink because all of V's magic is pink. It's a theme that has been in place since "explosive runes". Seriously folks. Besides, as The Giant has said numerous times, it doesn't matter if it doesn't match the rules if it makes for a good story, and this one keeps getting better and better.

Tobimaro

2009-03-18, 09:26 PM

Wow. That was an ending that I was not expecting. A truly epic turn of events, Giant. :smallwink:

And that was a lot of Quickened spells in that Time Stop. Great way to maximize that spell's usage.

frostspirit

2009-03-18, 09:27 PM

Very cool comic.
everything in this encounter was correct. well heres why.
Acid Immunety - well duh black dragon (allso good agenst stomic acids)
Stoneskin - cuz DR is good :smallsmile:

Mind Blank - well maybe V doesnt want to make too much of a fuzz to his/her master and allso it helps agenst mind-affecting effects and scrying (if needed) allso you cant be detected :) no use tho just in case s***

Protection agenst Spells - well the resistance is good.

shield - propably the only thing i would not use but it does give shield bonus to your AC.. acording to my players AC is good. (deam them thay know it too well.)

delayed blas Fireball - belive it or not its a logical choice, both being better than the orginal fireball and you can make it blast when ever you want(with in 5 rounds thats to say) and doing it right after the Time stop is the best way at the start of your next turn after you´ve cast fire shield ofcourse.

Fire shield - well you´ve just cast a delayed blast fireball. allso cuz of the 6 attacs your about to get i guess its a good idea :smallbiggrin:
Belive it or not but bigger the dragon then better it is to swallow PCs :smallamused: no really! but if she would have just done a grapple and just hold V then she would have to make another grapple each round so i would try to swallow in the first round i can allso she didnt know of the acid immuneity and the other stuff :smallbiggrin:
there are few rumors about the pink dragon. maybe its a prismatic dragon or a "questionable gender trap dragon" or maybe it tells us what the real gender V is for real. i have two theays about that. (i may regret this.... later)

First V is female

or..

second and maybe the most wierdest of em all... V is male ...but allso gay. yes im saying that the other mate is a guy but i have been triked before. No one said that the children where not adopted. :smalleek: but if it is the second please dont tell us it really would blow the mystery and we like V as a mystery. ether a guy or a girl :smallsmile: atleast i do. come on V uses Invisible to go out to pee but i hope and i think that Vaarsuvius is a girl for my sake. :smallsmile:

Martok

2009-03-18, 09:27 PM

In the immortal words of the Unknown Philosopher: Holy crap! :smalleek:

Starwaster

2009-03-18, 09:29 PM

Did anyone else notice:

Qaar: "What was that? I couldn't understand."

Purple-Eyed Guy: "I think he said..."

...!?!

Do we finally know V's gender?!!

*exaggerated sigh*

NO. We don't. This isn't the first time that some character has referred to V by a gender. Just one issue ago, Qarr referred to V as being female. Giant does this repeatedly. He makes a point of having some NPC refer to V as being male or female. And likely as not, he flips a coin just as he's about to write their dialogue. Heads it's male, tails it's female.

Mars

2009-03-18, 09:30 PM

Not American by any chance, are we? Early last century is only about a hundred years ago after all. Anyway 'recent' is defined relative to the timescales in question: 'recent' videogames are ones that came out no earlier than last Thursday, 'recent' geological events might have happened only a million years ago. Compared to the timescales on which other standard gender norms have existed, 'pink = girl' is indeed pretty recent, along with other things like the tradition of a diamond for a wedding ring (for which you can thank De Beers - who had the sense to include a guideline price range in their entirely artificial tradition), or the Christmas tree which IIRC was introduced to the English-speaking world by Victoria.

Anyway, if you think wearing pink makes someone a girl, tell it to Vegeta. He's a BAD MAN.

No I am no American. I can see the timescale of your 'recent' videogames, but anything that is beyond my age or your age cannot be deemed recent. It didn't happen in your life time so how can it be recent? What you are also implying is that sometime during the 1600's or whatever time, that men wore pink regularly.

Anyways, as someone as also said. Comic is written my a Western Male living in recent time, so......

Are you implying that men are incapable of feeling enough affection for their children to try to save their lives?

See now you are taking my comments out of context. You should know that I am implying about the nature of animals. The male is the hunter/gatherer while the females are the protectors and carers (most animals, don't go on a tangent here)

Indalecio

2009-03-18, 09:32 PM

Finally registered because I had to comment on this strip.

V as a wizard has a great will save. Once hir work is done, hir will disolve the soul bind. This will mean releasing the three souls, who will in turn wind up possessing V's mate and children. V will now have to find some way to exorcise them.

frostspirit

2009-03-18, 09:33 PM

he flips a coin just as he's about to write their dialogue. Heads it's male, tails it's female.
If he does, and hasnt decided yet, he´ll propably do that in the climax when we get to know :smallwink:

V as a wizard has a great will save. Once hir work is done, hir will disolve the soul bind. This will mean releasing the three souls, who will in turn wind up possessing V's mate and children. V will now have to find some way to exorcise them.

now that would be intresting storyline

DigoDragon

2009-03-18, 09:33 PM

She never said "no pink dragons," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN5XHUw_l8I) did she?

Heh heh, I thought of that too when I saw it. :smalltongue:

Quite an overkill shot there... bursting out of the mother black dragon like a xenomorph from Alien. I'm disappointed the dragon wasn't written intelligently, but as my brother says-- "We all can't be winners"...

Okay so we replaced V's usual demenor with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if the kids notice. :smallsmile:

Wadoka

2009-03-18, 09:38 PM

Flawless Victory!

That's twice someone's posted that.

I think, by the rules of Mortal Kombat, 'tis not so. You only earn a Flawless Victory if you win without taking any damage yourself.

Now.... "FINISH HIM!!!"

:smallwink:

jpnuar1

2009-03-18, 09:41 PM

Erfworld also had comics posted with a major deus ex machine or chekhov's gun (depending on your opinion).
I think the most appropriate trope would actually be "The Computer is a Cheating Bastard"

Kirgoth the Orc

2009-03-18, 09:46 PM

Very nice

V has spent
1 round confused
1 round teleport
1 round disjustion and quickened disintigrate
1 round casting timestop
1 round begin attacked and doing fire damage
1 round being given the finger and eaten
1 round casting shapechange
1 round turning into dragon and breaking out
relinquish control

This means 8 rounds each of lee,nero,cedrik minimum having V's soul. This may allow them to control her and attempt to bring about the new age of darkness discussed in #278, which is really the only thing I can see them being up to with relation to the gates and the snarl, unless they wan't to free it and destroy the world.

The snarl under demonic control via super V could do some serious god killing in 24 rounds given that it can kill 2 gods a round.

Zevox

2009-03-18, 09:49 PM

I don't get how early century is recent. define recent for me.
Recent historically. Recorded history of human cultures extends back at least two and a half millenniums, and of course humans have existed for far longer than that. The cultural perception of specific colors being attached to individual sexes dates back less than a full century. That's very recent historically. Just like the two World Wars are recent historically, whereas the Peloponnesian War is not (unless you look at all of history, not just recorded human history).

How can my assumption be foolish. When what you are making is exactly that, an assumption that things don't carry into the fantasy world.
A fantasy world is not our world, therefore the default assumption should be that it will not be the same as our world unless shown to be so. To assume that cultures within it are the same as in our world without any evidence of that, especially on something so minor and inane as attaching sex identifications to specific colors, is completely nonsensical, and therefore foolish.

Zevox

Porthos

2009-03-18, 09:51 PM

That's twice someone's posted that.

I think, by the rules of Mortal Kombat, 'tis not so. You only earn a Flawless Victory if you win without taking any damage yourself.

Now.... "FINISH HIM!!!"

:smallwink:

Thanks to all of the blocks protection spells V put up while Time Stopped, I don't think he actually took any damage.

Hence the "Flawless Victory.... FATALITY!"

Come to think of it, Flawless Victory would have been an excellent alternate title. :smalltongue:

Very nice

V has spent
1 round confused
1 round teleport
1 round disjustion and quickened disintigrate
1 round casting timestop
1 round begin attacked and doing fire damage
1 round being given the finger and eaten
1 round casting shapechange
1 round turning into dragon and breaking out
relinquish control

This means 8 rounds each of lee,nero,cedrik minimum having V's soul. This may allow them to control her and attempt to bring about the new age of darkness discussed in #278, which is really the only thing I can see them being up to with relation to the gates and the snarl, unless they wan't to free it and destroy the world.

The snarl under demonic control via super V could do some serious god killing in 24 rounds given that it can kill 2 gods a round.

Well, some of those rounds are simultaneous (i.e, first the ABD attacks, then V counter attacks) and I think that the Shapechange and the kersplooie that resulted from it would be in the same round...

But I think you're more or less on the right track. :smallwink:

Now the tricksy thing to wonder is if the four rounds that V spent Time Stopped count or not toward the Soul Splice. :smalltongue:

Mordae

2009-03-18, 09:58 PM

i am assuming that the children are not adopted.

V seems to contradict your assumption in 631, panel 8: "An hour?!? My adopted progeny will be long dead by then, imp!" The Giant is making sure we cannot assume that V is male, even if Otherparent is (or is not) clearly female.

And I must join with the others in commending the awesomeness of this episode. Tis far easier to let an ancient black dragon kill itself than deal that much damage as a single PC :)

CrimsonAngel

2009-03-18, 09:58 PM

:smallbiggrin: *gives giant a cookie*

Janmorel

2009-03-18, 10:00 PM

I have a feeling that V's triumph is going to be short-lived- there are just so many ways for things to go wrong now. Too much... suspense! Must talk in exaggerated... Shatneresque sentence fragments!

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 10:01 PM

Enchanting, evocative, necromantic comic! Bravo, Sir! And not just because it has two of the coolest 9th level spells – Time Stop and my all-time favorite Shapechange!! (Persist it, V! Persist it!!), or that it has two darkly powerful evil creatures engaged in a thrilling, epic battle, or that V never utters a word except spellcasting - but that final panel is what killed me dead. Shapechange into a Huge creature and make a Strength check to burst out of the enemy who ate you, shredding it into chunky bloody bits? Yes, that is one tasty comic.

And the three evil souls commentaries? Priceless! Finger of Failure! Hand of Hopelessness! Pointer of Pointlessness! It’s official,folks - great dark power should always come with a sense of humour.

who was the dragon speaking to when she yelled for "Silence! (I will eat you ALIVE)"? V wasn't talking... the splices were talking... in V's mind... weren't they?

It appears the splices have telepathy, which they have used on the ABD.

And how close did V play it! He took some serious risks. Yeah, to the point of suicidal.

ABD has 33 STR = +16 damage bonus, and her primary melee attack (bite) will be doing an average of 25 damage (2d8 + STR bonus) at +40 attack bonus, and each of the 5 secondary attacks (2 claws, 2 wings & 1 tail) will be doing an average of (30/5 + ½ STR bonus) = 14 damage at +35 attack bonus.

V has no Dex modifier, Shield gives only +4 to AC; so V would have a minimum AC of 14. Assuming his robes have a +3 enchantment (normal for a 13th level character), his AC will be at 17. He has no chance of avoiding being hit by all of the ABD’s attacks, unless the monster rolls a 1 (5% chance). With overwhelming probability, all of the Dragon’s six attacks will hit V.

Now, Stoneskin gives a 10/adamantine damage reduction. Therefore, the ABD’s primary attack would have done 15 damage to V, and each of the remaining attacks – 4 damage, for a total of 35 damage overcoming the DR. If ABD rolled max damage on 2 of its 6 attacks, it would have been 49 damage. The Finger of Death would cause 23 average damage on a successful save on top of that (it’s not subject to Stoneskin, and Protection from spells only gives save bonuses), for a total of 72 damage.

As a 13th level Wizard, V would have around 39 + Con bonus HP. Going with the Class and Level Geekery assumption that he has no more than 12 Con, and then casting Bear’s Endurance for +4 Con, he would have a total of 78 hp.

So V should have suffered a loss of 90% of his total hp on a very slightly better than average attack from the dragon. Would the dragon have a bit more luck, V would have been disabled, or straight up dead.

Would the dragon have made a full attack on V in the second round, instead of relying on the FoD, and had a tiny bit of luck, it would have done a total of 98 damage, killing V outright.

Which makes it a bit surprising to this poster not seeing a single scratch on V.

Maybe V has Epic damage reduction?

As already mentioned, V could've just used more Delayed Blast Fireballs. 6 of these: total average damage = 420, well over the ABD’s 384 HP (or rather 244 hp, if we also count in the Disintegrate with its average 140 damage).

Nonetheless, despite the chances he takes, V not only does not finish the Dragon in one Time Stop, but skips an entire round doing nothing.

Yep, that’s right. The Dragon couldn’t perform a melee attack and a Finger of Death in 1 round (both are standard actions); much less could it perform a full attack (slash! slash! six attacks per round), which is a full-round action, and a Finger of Death in the same round. It didn’t use Quicken, or Celerity, or any other action increaser.

Therefore, V must have skipped a round after casting Time Stop/buffing, and before being eaten by Dragon and casting Shapechange.

So, V sure took his chances here. I’d go so far as saying “Death wish”, but it strikes me more as a “cool beats cautious” mentality, which we had in Xykon and which I admire for its, well, coolness.

Because, you know, 6 fireballs just don’t cut it when you can tear up a dragon from the inside by turning into another dragon 8=)))

Anyone know what sort of dragon V became? Is there an actual pink dragon, or is that just the color of V's magic?

Am I the only one who’s thinking V shapechanged into a Vampiric Dragon? It looks like the illustration for Vampiric Red Dragon in the Draconomicon, and would go with V’s new “Dracula” look.

http://i43.tinypic.com/szz7mg.jpg

Among the many benefits of becoming a Vampiric Dragon is the ability to turn other creatures into Vampires who are your slaves/thralls, as well as a high-DC Dominate Monster gaze attack. If my char had Shapechange, that’s one of the monsters I’d consider.

SHAPECHANGE FTW!!

Prak

2009-03-18, 10:10 PM

'How many times do I have to tell you, "Chew your food…"'? So much for a mother's advice… ^^
Somewhat disappointingly rookie mistake from the scaly one, IMHO: put it down to a stressful situation? :)

(aside: The internal voices aren't?)

put it down to the fact that large carnivores don't chew. Large carnivores rip off bite sized chunks of meat and swallow them whole. When you're that big an elf is bite sized.

Sutremaine

2009-03-18, 10:11 PM

Well that was disturbing.

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 10:13 PM

"An hour?!? My adopted progeny will be long dead by then, imp!"

Isn't "adopted progeny" an oxymoron? It is very biology-specific... And doesn't it make you sad that V has no real children?

Sgeo

2009-03-18, 10:15 PM

Do we know where the dragon's head or other body parts are going to fall? What if it falls on the children?

Porthos

2009-03-18, 10:16 PM

And doesn't it make you sad that V has no real children?

Since adopted children are no less real, no it doesn't. :smallsmile:

David Argall

2009-03-18, 10:20 PM

Anyone know what sort of dragon V became? Is there an actual pink dragon,

Pink dragons are quite common, in dwarven bars.

Not according to the SRD. enlarge person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) certainly has that restriction (and even then you get a Strength check to burst the enclosure), but alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm), polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), and shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) do not have that restriction. And even if they do, they would still probably get a strength check to burst the confining space, which I would assume Dragon-V made with ease.
The rules are not as open and shut as I had assumed. However, I would still argue I am correct. The expanding object should not be allowed to give automatic damage to its container, nor take automatic damage.
The enlarge strength check is not sufficient here. V's apparent strength would be no more that equal to the dragon's and a dragon strong enough to rip another dragon apart like that would be strong enough to rip itself apart, meaning it would have killed itself long ago.

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 10:22 PM

Since adopted children are no less real, no it doesn't. :smallsmile:

No, they're not, as they are not children (or progeny) per se. They might perform as children from the legal, social, and even psychological POV; but they are not actual biological descendants.

Personally, I find it sad that V's awesome genes are doomed to perish in the dump of history.

Porthos

2009-03-18, 10:29 PM

No, they're not, as they are not children (or progeny) per se. They might perform as children from the legal, social, and even psychological POV; but they are not actual biological descendants.

Personally, I find it sad that V's awesome genes are doomed to perish in the dump of history.

Dude, I disagree with the implications of those statements on so many levels, that I don't know where to begin. And since almost all of them have to do with Real World Issues, I'll leave them to the side.

But I will say this: A man or woman is SO much more than their mere genetic material. To cry over the fact that V's genes won't reproduce seems...

Well. Just wrong.

On each and every level.

But, as I said, I can't argue my point any further, so I will bow out now and leave this part of the discussion with an "adieu". :smallsmile:

Raging Gene Ray

2009-03-18, 10:29 PM

No, they're not, as they are not [b]children (or progeny) per se.[b/] They might perform as children from the legal, social, and even psychological POV; but they are not actual biological descendants.

What do you have against adoption? I'm actually glad V and hir made decided to take in some children who weren't fortunate enough to have parents, and why should YOU be sad? Adoption was good enough for V.

Also, I only saw the last panel out of the corner of my eye at first and thought V had somehow skinned the dragon alive and the pink dragon was ABD's muscle tissue and eternal organs tearing their way out of her body.

Mando Knight

2009-03-18, 10:29 PM

The male is the hunter/gatherer while the females are the protectors and carers (most animals, don't go on a tangent here)

Except for solitary animals, lions, hive insects, grazing animals...

In the immortal words of the Unknown Philosopher: Holy crap! :smalleek:
You mean Strong Bad? (http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php/Crap)

On another note, my note on the pink dragon seems to be my most-quoted statement itP...

Selene

2009-03-18, 10:29 PM

Ooh, V wins LARGE! :smallcool:

Also, how is it that so many people missed it when V said the kids are adopted? :smallconfused:

frostspirit

2009-03-18, 10:34 PM

The Black Dragon is quite modified and has propably some high spell casting class levels plus being a close to be a Wyrm state i guess about CR 27-34+ meaning that the splise is quite the boost that V has. it maybe giving V high DR and HP and maybe fasthealing/regenration cuz there is no damage to be seen on V. allso i dont think that thay are 13th level being that V could cast few 7th or 8th level spells before(maybe the 7th level with 20+int). casting that lot of Disintigrate spells(6th level spell) in 13th level even tho you have over 20+ int and filled out your spell slots is quite hard. Xykon is over level 20 perhaps and is about 5 levels over the OOTS.
and now im rambling on ..... :smallconfused:

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 10:43 PM

The rules are not as open and shut as I had assumed. However, I would still argue I am correct. The expanding object should not be allowed to give automatic damage to its container, nor take automatic damage.

You have to read the rules again, apparently. The expanding object creature does damage the container (or rather, destroys it by bursting it open) by making a STR check. The expanding creature is specifically not allowed to take damage from enlargement should it fail said check.

The enlarge strength check is not sufficient here. V's apparent strength would be no more that equal to the dragon's

A STR check for breaking out is not an opposed roll (logical, since the rule was devised for objects which have no STR), but rather a check against a DC, which is set basing on the object's hardness and hit points (or, more generally, material and structure). In any case, the two dragons aren't armwrestling; there is no way ABD could actively apply its muscles against V bursting out.

and a dragon strong enough to rip another dragon apart like that would be strong enough to rip itself apart, meaning it would have killed itself long ago.

Rip itself apart? What are you talking about?

I have to side with the idea that it's a Strength check, houseruled to work on creatures. The death effect is similar to Massive damage - maybe it is Massive damage, only the DC for ABD to not die is the result of V's Strength check; or a Coup de grace, seeing how ABD is helpless against an attack from within its own gut.

Solara

2009-03-18, 10:43 PM

Hey guys, I know! Instead of simply basking in the awesomeness that is this comic let's all spend pages and pages arguing about why the dragon was pink! Clearly this is plot relevant stuff here.

...argh okay so I can't resist either. The dragon is pink because V's magic is pink. And nothing that happens in this comic "proves" that V is male or female or whatever pet theory you have. V's gender is ambigious, this is something the Giant does on purpose. Seriously, what is the deal, every single update people are all 'Aha! So V is CLEARLY a guy/girl/gay hermaphrodite!' like they're completely oblivious to the fact that this has been a running joke for hundreds of comics now. :smallannoyed:

/rant off

(Sorry I just get annoyed, the V endless gender debate is no longer even mildly amusing anymore and it seems like no matter how great a comic is there must always be one tiny insignificant detail the forums latch onto and argue into the ground at the expense of all other discussion...)

Porthos

2009-03-18, 10:45 PM

Well, looks like I missed something in this last comic. V has a single scratch mark on him (well, technically two, but they're side-by-side which means it's from one wound) during the battle. You can see the small scuff marks in the Finger of Death panel, as well as when V is being swallowed whole. So this would indicate that he took extremely minor damage during the fight.

So much for the flawless victory. :smallwink:

I still maintain that this counts as a FATALITY though. Darn elf must have gotten hold of a cheat code or sumthin. :smalltongue:

frostspirit

2009-03-18, 10:48 PM

Well, looks like I missed something in this last comic. V has a single scratch mark on him (well, technically two, but they're side-by-side which means it's from one would) during the battle. You can see the small scuff marks in the Finger of Death panel, as well as when V is being swallowed whole. So this would indicate that he took extremely minor damage during the fight.

nope thats the belt rope :smallsmile:

Porthos

2009-03-18, 10:51 PM

nope thats the belt rope :smallsmile:

Well, never mind then. Flawless Victory it is. :smallcool:

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 10:53 PM

What do you have against adoption?

Let me show you something I've learned on this forum: Strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). You have attributed to me a statement that I never made (namely, that I am against adoption), and by defeating this "strawman" you are trying to create an illusion of refuting my actual position.

I'm actually glad V and hir made decided to take in some children who weren't fortunate enough to have parents, and why should YOU be sad?

Again, a strawman. You are trying to make an impression that I am sad about V adopting the kids (poor little kiddies they are). Whereas I explicitely stated that I was bemoaning the loss of V's genes, as well as the simple fact that s/he won't enjoy having actual biological offspring. S/he could have biological and adopted children, could s/he not?

Adoption was good enough for V.

How do you know? Maybe s/he tried having biological children, but couldn't, and had to make do with adoption? (Havent read OtOotPCs, so purely speculating here).

Also, I only saw the last panel out of the corner of my eye at first and thought V had somehow skinned the dragon alive and the pink dragon was ABD's muscle tissue and eternal organs tearing their way out of her body.

Yeah, I totally thought that "OMG V ANIMATED ITS INSIDES!" But then I paid attention to "Shapechange" and everything clicked.

NeonRonin

2009-03-18, 10:53 PM

Maybe it's me, but when I saw a bright pink dragon exploding out of a black dragon's body like that... why did it bring to mind the world's biggest bottle of Pepto-Bismol?

Because after an event like that, the ABD's gonna NEED it. :smallbiggrin:

Still, that was probably one of the craziest uses of Shapechange(whether it broke the rules or not) that I have ever seen. And I've seen some monumentally crazy things at certain gaming tables in my life. (I once saw a bard whose party enhancing songs were causing MORE BASE DAMAGE than the rest of the party combined, but I think V's spell still outranks that on the coolness meter.)

Nice work, Giant.

2009-03-18, 10:56 PM

Pink Dragons, flat screen hd tv's, imps whose names start with Q, what does this comic NOT have?

Oh yeah... gratuitous nudity.

Thats a shame...

the_tick_rules

2009-03-18, 10:57 PM

Dragon scales may be tougher than steel, but their insides are just as squishy as everyone elses.

Undead Prince

2009-03-18, 11:02 PM

Pink Dragons, flat screen hd tv's, imps whose names start with Q, what does this comic NOT have?

Oh yeah... gratuitous nudity.

Thats a shame...

I beg your pardon? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0026.gif)

d24478667

2009-03-18, 11:04 PM

Pink Dragons, flat screen hd tv's, imps whose names start with Q, what does this comic NOT have?

Oh yeah... gratuitous nudity.

Thats a shame...

Give me a second to find the link, but Elan is invisible.

Ahh, here we are. Gratuitous nudity coming up. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html

Edit: Oh, nevermind then.

frostspirit

2009-03-18, 11:04 PM

"my adopted progeny"= "my offspring that I raised":smallsmile:
offspring can be changed into child but offspring is better cuz biological parent is too long

The Minx

2009-03-18, 11:11 PM

That was a pretty Epic victory right there. Way to go V. :smallsmile:

Well, V, with a little help from a trio of evil mages, which might be a problem in the immediate future. On that note:

-- "Parent, who is that?"

-- "Have we been saved?"

-- "I'm... not sure."

Indeed.

Warren Dew

2009-03-18, 11:26 PM

Could V have set 8 of them (560 damage average assuming each one counts as cast by someone level 20+)? Granted it wouldn't have been as cool as the actual strategy :p.

Vaarsuvius probably needed the defensive spells to keep from getting killed by the upcoming melee attacks.

leonon

2009-03-18, 11:36 PM

Will V (always arcane power hungry) walk away from the power s/he currently wields? Or will s/he snap at hir mate and children when they ask what happened to hir?They're unlikely to drop the soul splice before leaving their family. V can't cast any version of teleport without the soul splice being active.

V'icternus

2009-03-18, 11:36 PM

Honestly, V just found the one main weakness of dragon scales.
They're only on the outside. Lol.

Still, with all that power, maybe he... er, she...

...

Maybe V will be able to bring Roy back from the dead without getting his currently Gollemed body back. But I doubt it...

Mars

2009-03-18, 11:46 PM

Except for solitary animals, lions, hive insects, grazing animals...

you did notice i did say most? of course grazing animals aren't because they don't hunt!

Mortith

2009-03-18, 11:53 PM

sweet comic. now I want to see V's family member's reaction:smallamused:

Raging Gene Ray

2009-03-18, 11:54 PM

Let me show you something I've learned on this forum: Strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). You have attributed to me a statement that I never made (namely, that I am against adoption), and by defeating this "strawman" you are trying to create an illusion of refuting my actual position.

I'm not trying to defeat your position. I'm just trying to find out how you could say that adopted children are not "real" children.

Whereas I explicitely stated that I was bemoaning the loss of V's genes, as well as the simple fact that s/he won't enjoy having actual biological offspring. S/he could have biological and adopted children, could s/he not?

Okay. That wasn't clear in the original post.

How do you know? Maybe s/he tried having biological children, but couldn't, and had to make do with adoption? (Havent read OtOotPCs, so purely speculating here).

Yes...that is PURE speculation. But I'd like to think most people/elves, fictional or otherwise don't see adoption as a last resort.

Yeah, I totally thought that "OMG V ANIMATED ITS INSIDES!" But then I paid attention to "Shapechange" and everything clicked.

Glad to agree on something! Especially since it's something relevant! Theoretically...could V have animated its skeleton...or a partially digested adventurer in its gut with necromancy? Anyone ever tried that kind of crazy crap in D&D?

David Argall

2009-03-19, 12:56 AM

Except for solitary animals, lions, hive insects, grazing animals...

The solitary animals are very heavily raised by the mother with a father who is normally absent. With grazing animals, the father may be present, but he is busy chasing away other males and also does little raising. With your hive insects, it is also females doing the great majority of the raising and males loafing around [or more accurately doing their best to knock up a female].
Now the plains lion is something of an exception, with the female hunting and the male staying home with the kids. However this is only the plains lion, not the lion of forest or jungle [who is less visible, and thus less studied]. There is no safe place to put the kids on the plains and they can be visible from a mile away. So the big strong male stays home to chase off anybody who wants lion cub for lunch [which includes most other lions]. In forest or jungle, there are places to hide the kids, and the male can go hunting, which he does.

Ahh, here we are. Gratuitous nudity coming up. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html
That does not count.

Elan may be nude, but we males are not going to express much gratitude for that.

A STR check for breaking out is not an opposed roll (logical, since the rule was devised for objects which have no STR), but rather a check against a DC, which is set basing on the object's hardness and hit points (or, more generally, material and structure).
Which would set a DC well beyond V's ability to beat.

Rip itself apart? What are you talking about?
"Every action produce an equal and opposite reaction." Our dragon pushes something one way, it pushes itself the opposite way. It pulls something, it also pulls itself the other way.
That means that if it pulls something hard enough to pull it apart, it is threatening to pull itself apart. And when it pushes hard enough to crush something, it has to deal with equally massive forces attacking itself.
Now the normal way to handle this is to concentrate the attack on one small point, while the reaction is spread over a large section of the body. But V can't do this. She is attacking the entire dragon body, not a square inch or so. So the force needed to rip the black dragon apart is beyond what V can muster. If a dragon could muster that much power, a morning stretch would break bones.

The picture is dramatic, but entirely unreal, either by D&D rules or reality.

Raenir Salazar

2009-03-19, 01:07 AM

I think the Crowning Moment of Awesome article needs to be radically rewritten, and the criteria adjusted.

A new level has been achieved folks the end is nigh!

MurderOfCrows

2009-03-19, 01:13 AM

Well, never mind then. Flawless Victory it is. :smallcool:

Non-flawless.

Fire-shield deals damage to an attacker based on the damage they do to you.

While the flames could have been from the DBFB, the dragon specifically references the Fire Shield with the "Flames or not" line immediately after, so the dragon did do damage to V, and suffered the spell's effect. Not much through the stoneskin protections, but enough to be noticed.

Zevox

2009-03-19, 01:17 AM

"my adopted progeny"= "my offspring that I raised":smallsmile:
offspring can be changed into child but offspring is better cuz biological parent is too long
Er, no. There is no definition of "adopted" that would yield that meaning.

Zevox

Malik

2009-03-19, 01:22 AM

:O .......... I was left in total awe of this comic. That was just so awesome i have the words to describe it but they would cheapen the whole thing.

Darkfalle

2009-03-19, 01:26 AM

Oh yeah... gratuitous nudity.

Well... technically the dragons are nude so...

harami2000

2009-03-19, 01:27 AM

The picture is dramatic, but entirely unreal, either by D&D rules or reality.
Perhaps what's more surprising to me is the apparent lack of familiarity with discussion over the validity of such a tactic.

aside/OT: I'm not 3e-compliant but checked briefly and spotted that (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/archives/tooMuchMagic) "Shapechange has been errataed—you can't assume the form of a creature with more hit dice than your level now". True? So the Soul Splice effect affects base character level as well as casting level, or is this just "running free and easy" again? Mhmm... :smallsmile:

Anyhows... ^^

stevekgoodwin

2009-03-19, 01:34 AM

Safe to say nobody would have predicted that final panel. Have to rate this one as a 10/10 (I rate 10% of things as 10/10; YMMV).

Be interesting to see how, or if, this tangent of V's affects the greater story. Hopefully these side quests all start wrapping up soon...

DeviledEggs

2009-03-19, 01:36 AM

Oh the irony.

Both died after eating V.

Avilan the Grey

2009-03-19, 01:46 AM

Not American by any chance, are we?
(Snipping examples of "recent")

Just coming in late here: For cultural habits, early last century is not that recent for most people, even if you are not American. I am Swedish, and some of our customs (Spring festival, etc) are ancient, some that are truly related to as extremely traditional is not (Modern Christmas celebrations for example. In fact they are just about a century old).

The Minx

2009-03-19, 01:47 AM

That does not count.

Elan may be nude, but we males are not going to express much gratitude for that.

Females may disagree. :smallbiggrin:

But can any nudity be gratuitous if someone isn't grateful? I'm pretty sure you were joking here, since you probably know that that's not what gratuitous means, right?

Oh the irony.

Both died after eating V.

You noticed that too, eh? I guess dragons should learn to chew before they swallow.

Mik Sneakyfeet

2009-03-19, 01:50 AM

That does not count.

Elan may be nude, but we males are not going to express much gratitude for that.

Uh, speak for yourself there buddy. This particular male is quite happy with nude males.

Anyway, we're getting off the main point here. To wit:

V > Chuck Norris.

eras10

2009-03-19, 01:53 AM

First, to Rich -

I have to give you credit. Somehow you guessed that after all the waiting and buildup and drip-drip ladeling out of V's ubercharge, we were panting for a massive fight scene. And this delivered. I feel satiated. Good.

Okay. Second, a few pages back, someone did a great analysis of how much damage V took in that fight by the book - at least 75 damage. Finger of Death inflicted, and Stoneskin's DR is not enough to nullify the ABD completely.

I think this strongly suggests that we can answer one of the big uncertainties about the Splice - whether it's just a bunch of spells or a persona-wide enhancement. Given that V hardly seems to have a scratch, it seems likely that she's either had her HP boosted to her new average level - somewhere about 30 - or maybe even to the combined total.

Someone should let the class and level geekery people know.

2009-03-19, 02:10 AM

I beg your pardon? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0026.gif)

Sorry, bad phrasing on my part... what I meant was... THIS PARTICULAR COMIC. 638

Mystery

2009-03-19, 02:23 AM

What makes you believe black dragons are immune (or even resistant) to disintegrate?He's probably a Nethack (http://www.nethack.org/) player. In Nethack, black dragons breathe disintegration blasts, which are an instakill on anything that doesn't have the right protection against it. It's quite a contrast against D&D, where black dragons breathe acid and Disintegrate is a damage-dealing spell.

hamishspence

2009-03-19, 02:51 AM

some things are more resistant one way than the other. If V is inside dragon's ribcage, breaking bones, and flesh, from the inside might not be as hard as breaking a dragon into bits from the outside.

Also- magic- we do not know what the spell can and can't do.

factotum

2009-03-19, 02:57 AM

Been reading the discussion, and I can sum my thoughts up quite simply: who cares why V-dragon is pink or if he really had enough strength to rip apart a Black Dragon from the inside? The fight was awesome, wasn't that enough? :smallbiggrin:

Lunaya

2009-03-19, 03:15 AM

:smalleek:

So..yeah. I guess that's one way to win a fight. The comic title had me worried at first.

Hamilkar

2009-03-19, 03:24 AM

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

V as evil powerful character IS awesome² !!! :smallbiggrin:
As long as his family survives that! :smalleek:

derfenrirwolv

2009-03-19, 04:01 AM

Damage taken

Assuming average rolls per die

V has stoneskin up, that takes ten off of each attack

Bite (full str) 2d8+11 (20 damage) -10 = 10

Claw 1 (1/2 str) 2d6 +5 13 damage -10 = 3 damage

Claw 2 (1/2 str) 2d6 +5 13 damage -10 = 3 damage

Wing 1 (1/2 str) 1d8 +5 = 9 damage -10= 0 damage

Wing 2 (1/2 str) 1d8 +5 = 10 damage -10= 0 damage

Tail (1.5 str) 2d6 +16= 23 -10= 13 damage

Total: 39 damage

Finger of death

3d6+ 1/level on save (obviously made)

3d6+14 = 10.5 + 14 damage= 24 damage.

24+39= 63 hp.

14th level wizard with no con bonus 4 +(2.5X13) = 36 hp. With bears endurance =64

Momma Dragon

Fire shield has a cap of +15 on damage.

1d6 +15 X 6= (3.5 +15) x6= 111

I just hope V doesn't use one of the scrolls of soul bind on her. Yeah, she needed to die before doing something to V's kids, but I'd like to see her meet her son in the afterlife.

Estrosiath

2009-03-19, 04:08 AM

I don't know. V doesn't seem wounded AT ALL by all of the dragon's attacks. Not even a scratch can be seen on him, calculations or not :)

delguidance

2009-03-19, 04:34 AM

If V's wise he'll teleport right out of there before dealing with his family at all, but I don't think he will.

Great comic. Not the most awesome/original thing V's ever done, but still great. For anyone who's played a lot of DnD, this was a standard high level wizard going to town.

It's just that using a shapechanging spell offensively has been discussed since the start of third edition with erratas and FAQ's galore. For example, you shape change a T-Rex into a mouse, put the mouse in a jar and then when you need to you fly over the enemy, drop the jar and dispell the shape change. Unless the giant planned this out that long ago which could be possible.

Again great comic. I can't wait to see what happens next.

Undead Prince

2009-03-19, 04:45 AM

A STR check for breaking out is not an opposed roll (logical, since the rule was devised for objects which have no STR), but rather a check against a DC, which is set basing on the object's hardness and hit points (or, more generally, material and structure).

Which would set a DC well beyond V's ability to beat.

Remember, V would have the strength of his new form. Considering the 25 HD limit of Shapechange, a Mature Adult Red Dragon would have 33 STR. If V chose to shapechange into a Vampiric Dragon (at no additional HD cost), that would give even higher STR.

"Every action produce an equal and opposite reaction." Our dragon pushes something one way, it pushes itself the opposite way. It pulls something, it also pulls itself the other way.
That means that if it pulls something hard enough to pull it apart, it is threatening to pull itself apart. And when it pushes hard enough to crush something, it has to deal with equally massive forces attacking itself.

Huh? You can totally easy pull out your own entrails.Or break your own arm. Or gouge out your eye. With enough strength, you can break your own ribcage, tear off fingets etc.

Now the normal way to handle this is to concentrate the attack on one small point, while the reaction is spread over a large section of the body. But V can't do this. She is attacking the entire dragon body, not a square inch or so. So the force needed to rip the black dragon apart is beyond what V can muster. If a dragon could muster that much power, a morning stretch would break bones.

A morning stretch cant break you since you're stretching. I.e. giving in to the force. V applied strength past the point of stretching, and actually tore the ABD from within. What's so confusing about that?

The picture is dramatic, but entirely unreal, either by D&D rules or reality.

DnD rules allow STR checks to break out of confinement when magically enlarging. If a creature can break stone walls and iron containers, why can't it tear open the flesh of another creature?

And "reality"? Srsly. Dragon. Reality?

Undead Prince

2009-03-19, 04:52 AM

a few pages back, someone did a great analysis of how much damage V took in that fight by the book - at least 75 damage. Finger of Death inflicted, and Stoneskin's DR is not enough to nullify the ABD completely.

Thank you for the appreciation of my work; at least I'll have my place in history as "someone" who "did that analysis" 8=))

I think this strongly suggests that we can answer one of the big uncertainties about the Splice - whether it's just a bunch of spells or a persona-wide enhancement. Given that V hardly seems to have a scratch, it seems likely that she's either had her HP boosted to her new average level - somewhere about 30 - or maybe even to the combined total.

Yes, that would go well with the Gestalt theory. Under Gestalt, V would have the best HP out of all 3 entities; but that would still put his base HP at less than 80 assuming average die rolls. Even if some of the souls took Toughness/Epic Toughness, which would add +30 for each feat, the damage is still non-negligible.

And on second thought, Epic Damage Resistance wouldn't stack with Stoneskin, so wouldn't help much.

What's the secret? I wonder.

Damage taken

You could have noted that this work was already done (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5899150&postcount=107), and more extensively. Although, good for pointing out the 1.5 Str on the tail.

14th level wizard with no con bonus 4 +(2.5X13) = 36 hp. With bears endurance =64

What makes you think V is 14th level? I know Class & Level thinks that, but 7th level spells are available to 13th level Wizards. Why no Con bonus (Class & Level believes he might have 12 Con)?

I just hope V doesn't use one of the scrolls of soul bind on her.

To soul bind, V would need a black sapphire worth 33,000 gp (1K for every HD of the ABD). Using a scroll of soul bind does not negate the necessity for this gem (it is needed to trap the soul). The ABD would have three black sapphires, but none of them would be even close to sufficient, seeing how low level V's family is.

Yeah, she needed to die before doing something to V's kids, but I'd like to see her meet her son in the afterlife.

You're forgetting the possibility of resurrection. One of ABD's friends/relatives/minions could bring her back to life, and she'd'be on V's case harder than ever (presumably waiting till the Soul Splice wears off, and then performing a horrible revenge). Soul binding or another form of preventing resurrection is the only way to go here, I'm afraid. And seriously, she doesn't deserve any modicum of afterlife happiness.

John05

2009-03-19, 05:02 AM

Btw, did they ever clear up how the younger dragon died to disintegrate, even though blacks are immune/resistant?

What makes you believe black dragons are immune (or even resistant) to disintegrate?

He/She possibly got it from NetHack, a rogue game based on Dungeons and Dragons (I think 1st or 2nd Edition; though it's still different in many aspects).

In NetHack, Black Dragons have resistance vs disintegration (in lieu of acid), even though I don't think Black Dragons have ever had resistance to disintegration in D&D history (I think).

EDIT: Err... sorry for reiterating what someone already pointed out. That's what I get for skimming though posts.

Adeptus

2009-03-19, 05:06 AM

The timestop & spellspam remind me of stories I've heard from a friend who ran classic 1st edition D&D for a decade. 36th level wizards and all that.

Let's see where things go from here. So far it looks like V's infernal bargain worked, and the family lives.

Asta Kask

2009-03-19, 05:11 AM

That's what you get for bringing a bite to a spell-fight... :)

The_Void

2009-03-19, 05:42 AM

Shapechange. For. The. Win.

derfenrirwolv

2009-03-19, 05:50 AM

You could have noted that this work was already done, and more extensively.

1) I did it out in pen while the forums were down and i was bored

2) I don't know where some of your numbers came from, namely the +16 strength.

18 +4
20 +5
22 +6
24 +7
26 +8
28 +9
30 +10
32 +11

The formula is (Stat -10)/ 2 (round down)

Although, good for pointing out the 1.5 Str on the tail.

and that

What makes you think V is 14th level?

Class and level geekery.

I know Class & Level thinks that, but 7th level spells are available to 13th level Wizards.

It has to do with the number of 7th level spells He* cast. Either he's 14th or has a very nice headband of intellect.

Why no Con bonus (Class & Level believes he might have 12 Con)?

I'm Doing a worst case scenario, "could V survive on his own" or Does he have the extra HP from the gestalt. I don't know how they got a 12 con for V. Given that HP are rolled its hard to tell how many hp someone has.

My conclusion is that he doesn't NEED to have HP's from the gestalt. (He might have them though.)

Using a scroll of soul bind does not negate the necessity for this gem (it is needed to trap the soul). The ABD would have three black sapphires, but none of them would be even close to sufficient, seeing how low level V's family is.

I'm sure Evil V has a way around that. The gem also could be that valuable.

Momma "I need to trap the souls of the loved ones of the people who destroyed your nephew. Do you have any one 5 karrot black saphire?"

Uncle "What does this look like, a halflings junk shop? Take the big ones"

You're forgetting the possibility of resurrection. One of ABD's friends/relatives/minions could bring her back to life

There is MBD's brother in law after all, but no, i did not forget the possibility of ressurection. This is not "What do i think V should do" it "what do i want to see happen.

(i say brother in law because MBD said "Boys uncle"... which could technically be her own brother or her husbands brother but would be an odd way to refer to your own)

*He is simply used for convenience and is not in any way shape or form a comment on varsuvius's gender. Those insisting on heshehirit or some apostrophe bound abomination can put their eyes in a blender so simulate how i feel trying to read a sentance with more dots and slashes than a novel written in morse code

Eric O'Really

2009-03-19, 06:13 AM

I just hope V doesn't use one of the scrolls of soul bind on her. Yeah, she needed to die before doing something to V's kids, but I'd like to see her meet her son in the afterlife.

you mean in the nine hells, where both will be tortured for eternity? :smallbiggrin:

there is no doubt that the abd is evil. binding the soul of any creature is one of the most evil acts that exists in the dnd universe. and if i remember correctely it was even mentioned in the spell description. as for the young one, in dnd dragons are covenientely colorcoded by alighnement. :smallwink: so there is little doubt that he was totally evil, too. (also with that mother? how could he not turn evil? he was old enough, that his mother could have passed down some of her "values" to him)

i have the slight hope that v wont turn evil. up until now, he was neutral anyways and seemed to lean more to good than evil. making the pact itself maybe not enough to turn his alighnement. and he has not done much evil with is new powers. on the contrary he has saved his innocent family from a horrible fate. if he would let go of the soul splice now, it may not have much impact on his own soul. but since his character development has gone into evil direction for a long time, i dont really believe that.

i will certainly miss those times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/4Iy3M2ZMw78VxvAQkAk.gif).

stsasser

2009-03-19, 06:50 AM

Personally, I find it sad that V's awesome genes are doomed to perish in the dump of history.

Any world will always have plenty of arrogant megalomaniacs. V's genes won't be missed.

evileeyore

2009-03-19, 07:27 AM

That is so totally awesome. I admit I was worried when I saw the title, so good job putting one over on me, Giant.

As someone who is linked straight to the comic page, I didn;t see the title until afterwards.

Giant, I'd suggest putting the title above the comic. It would have had the impact your looking for for those of us whom skip the front/news page.

motub

2009-03-19, 07:28 AM

Using a scroll of soul bind does not negate the necessity for this gem (it is needed to trap the soul).
But wouldn't any scrolls that the ABD had on her "person" have been destroyed when the Disjunction broke the anti-magic field?

Or are spell scrolls not considered magic objects (or might one or more of them have miraculously made their saving throw and have survived, or might I have misunderstood the effects of a successful Disjunction)?

harami2000

2009-03-19, 07:31 AM

A morning stretch cant break you since you're stretching. I.e. giving in to the force. V applied strength past the point of stretching, and actually tore the ABD from within. What's so confusing about that?
Perhaps because near-instantaneous ain't the same as mere "stretching", but more akin to attempting to teleport into a solid object.

It's just that using a shapechanging spell offensively has been discussed since the start of third edition with erratas and FAQ's galore. For example, you shape change a T-Rex into a mouse, put the mouse in a jar and then when you need to you fly over the enemy, drop the jar and dispell the shape change. Unless the giant planned this out that long ago which could be possible.
(... since before 1e (AD&D, that is)). (Ab)use of even the humble "polymorph other" either by itself or in combination with dispel magic goes way back.

IMHO, the ABD somehow presuming an immediate kill from swallowing live a flaming high-level MU, also negating any ability to continue attacking the target, is still more a "deus ex machina" contrary to the story's internal logic (scheming, smart scaly critter is really a very dumb lizard after all) for an already decided-upon final panel, bursting the "suspension of disbelief" bubble... as well as the ABD.

harami2000

2009-03-19, 07:34 AM

Giant, I'd suggest putting the title above the comic. It would have had the impact your looking for for those of us whom skip the front/news page.
+1. Good suggestion, several times over.

HandofShadows

2009-03-19, 07:36 AM

Ding Dong the Dragon is Dead! Great battle and a great way to take out the dragon. (how does a black dragon taste by the way?)

What I wonder about is what the dragon said at the end "For a moment I thought it had been all for nothing". There is something more going here than we have seen so far.

derfenrirwolv

2009-03-19, 07:36 AM

you mean in the nine hells, where both will be tortured for eternity?

Well, we're not sure what kind of afterlife evil dragons get. Tiamat is shown as a God, she may have set aside a special area for her children.

I also think it would be kind of cruel to create creatures "Always" chaotic evil and then torture them for being chaotic evil.

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 07:42 AM

Anyone know what sort of dragon V became? Is there an actual pink dragon, or is that just the color of V's magic?

If you disregard the color (which, like Lizard V, is related to vir magic and clothing), its horns somewhat resemble those of a 2E-era green dragon. That would make sense, as Mama herself looks like a 2E-era black dragon. V might've chosen that type because a green dragon would be slightly bigger than a black dragon of the same age: big enough to do the job, but not so huge that ve would lack leverage to tear free of Mama's carcass.

OTOH, green dragons are known to savor the taste of elves. It may be a darn good thing ve's scales are pink, if ve's to avoid scaring the kids virself....

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 07:45 AM

I guess we've got yet another high mark for this comic. I need a shower.

Not as badly as V's going to need one, after that last panel. :smallwink:

Indalecio

2009-03-19, 07:48 AM

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but maybe elves in this world as a species are genderless. Maybe they spit out eggs Namekian style. Or maybe like fish or turtles, they leave their young in the wild. Any that mature to a certain point, are welcome back into elven society.

Seems like a valid idea.

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 07:50 AM

Now, one question...

Black Dragons have Swallow Whole?

This one did, apparently. So did her son, whom we saw swallow Haley alive. Either the Giant has granted them that power on the basis of sheer size, or it's a monstrous feat which Mama taught to Junior.

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 08:10 AM

The solitary animals are very heavily raised by the mother with a father who is normally absent. With grazing animals, the father may be present, but he is busy chasing away other males and also does little raising.

That's for birds, mammals, and crocodilians. For fishes, which vastly outnumber all of the above, it's the other way around: the father tends to the eggs, the mother leaves to go fatten herself up and produce more. Basically, internal fertilization promotes maternal care, external fertilization favors paternal. (That's assuming there's any parental care at all; most species just lay eggs and ditch them.)

"Every action produce an equal and opposite reaction." Our dragon pushes something one way, it pushes itself the opposite way. It pulls something, it also pulls itself the other way.
That means that if it pulls something hard enough to pull it apart, it is threatening to pull itself apart.

IIRC, there was an old example TSR presented, back in 2000 or thereabouts, of how the rules for lifting and throwing objects worked in 3E. That example showed a high-level Tordek throwing his warhorse, using a magically-enhanced Strength that was in the mid-40s. AFAIK, Tordek neither maimed himself by doing so, nor catapulted himself across the room, despite the fact that his horse was far larger than him ... ergo, fantastic Str trumps mundane physics.

If a dragon could muster that much power, a morning stretch would break bones.

99% of the time that we use our muscles, we don't even draw upon a third of their potential power. Why would a dragon lack the ability to moderate its own muscle tension, a power which we -- like every other organism that has muscle cells, right down to jellyfish -- possess IRL?

Rollory

2009-03-19, 09:13 AM

double post fun fun laggy time

Rollory

2009-03-19, 09:15 AM

What makes you believe black dragons are immune (or even resistant) to disintegrate?

Nethack says so. And we all know Nethack is the ultimate authority.

Black dragon scale mail + polymorph + amulet of reflection = BWAHAHA

Only, we learn here not to go around and #swallow whole. Or eat eggs.

TheBST

2009-03-19, 09:20 AM

The picture is dramatic, but entirely unreal, either by D&D rules or reality.

Yes. The wizard's magic spell, used on a dragon, is entirely unrealistic.

Mr. Burlew, what-were-you-thinking?

Laughing Dragon

2009-03-19, 09:36 AM

I have actually met several work-out obsessed guys, who in the act of a morning-stretch have dislocated their own shoulders! No this is not an exageration. It is important to point out that, unlike the hip joint, the shoulder produces its movement by sliding around in a bony depression held (somewhat loosly) in place by the rotator cuff muscles. Not perhaps an ideal arrangement ... but good enough for the 80 or so years of the average human life-span.

I tend to go with the "dragon is pink because V's magic is pink" crowd. However, bursting out of another (previously) living being would tend to color things somewhat.

V's gender ... WHO CARES!!! I wish to read about hir, not mate with hir. Please give it, yourselves, and everyone else a rest ... thank you.

It is very interesting however, that the ABD seemed to be reacting to the comments of the "splice-ees," as perhaps did the IFCC when the reminded V to ignore the voices (I don't remember the exact quote). So ... how does this work? Is it some sort of telepathic broadcast, or is actual sound leaking out of V somewhere? This is a puzzling, and frankly disturbing aspect of the soul splice. I mean, whether V keeps hir composure or not anyone s/he interacts with will also be aware of the running commentary of the splice-ees. And if the comments are assumed to be coming from V hirself it totally hoses any chance for a positive reaction check. Good aligned characters will be repelled/disgusted ... and others will think that V is a serious psychotic (although from an evil standpoint there's not anything terribly wrong with that)!

Looking to the future ... I believe that V's partner DID recognize V. The question is whether s/he knows that v's demonstrated power level is seriously beyond anything V could have achieved through adventuring. I mean that there must some other higher level types in the villiage where "Other-parent" lives ... in the course of interacting with them there must have been conversations about how long each of them had adventured. Even an apprentice baker can see the size of the arcane aura that V is currently pumping out.

zero

2009-03-19, 09:36 AM

This one did, apparently. So did her son, whom we saw swallow Haley alive. Either the Giant has granted them that power on the basis of sheer size, or it's a monstrous feat which Mama taught to Junior.

D'oh! I had completely forgotten that!

peejaybee

2009-03-19, 09:40 AM

Not American by any chance, are we?

Heheh. There's a quote I heard somewhere, that goes something like:

An American is someone who thinks a hundred years is a long time. A European is someone who thinks that a hundred miles is a long distance.

KIDS

2009-03-19, 09:54 AM

This was incredibly epic. Nothing else needs to be said :D

The_Firenail

2009-03-19, 10:00 AM

Heheh. There's a quote I heard somewhere, that goes something like:

An American is someone who thinks a hundred years is a long time. A European is someone who thinks that a hundred miles is a long distance.

Well, 100 miles is more than 160 kilometers, (http://www.google.com/search?q=100+miles+in+km) so it is pretty long, even more than highway speend per hour.

It's all strategic planning. Even if you're Generally Evil.

B.I.T.T.

2009-03-19, 10:06 AM

Go V!

Good comic!

Magothys

2009-03-19, 10:12 AM

Indeed an epic finish. Let's just hope V doesn't pull a God of War now.

danielmayer

2009-03-19, 10:50 AM

"Go, Team Nethack!"
:smallsmile:

It's kind of sad that only few people know that game todays...

Of course, even the "swallow in hole" (SiH)may be a hint to nethack: If you ate too much, you had been asked "youre satiated already, are you sure?" - if answered with yes, you overate and choke to death. The ABD may just have done that :smallbiggrin:

Aside from nethack, the Age-of-Wonders II/SM had weapons who could give the SiH-feat.

In summary: A really tough and great epic fight. I loved that strip!
-sniff-
what would have Belkar said, if he could have seen this... so proud...
-sniff-

Darkhands

2009-03-19, 10:52 AM

As someone who is linked straight to the comic page, I didn;t see the title until afterwards.

Giant, I'd suggest putting the title above the comic. It would have had the impact your looking for for those of us whom skip the front/news page.

No no! Make sure to read the title only after reading the comic... It's often the answer to a question asked at the end, or even the entire punchline. :)

Taekwondodo

2009-03-19, 10:55 AM

&-0
(why is there not a gob smacked smilie when you need one?)
Was worried when read title but should have realised Rich likes to play with his readers.

Teatime

2009-03-19, 11:03 AM

Normally I'm not the type to think/care about TVtropes at all, but the title made me think of Vaarsuvius now being the "dragon" of the comic - that is, the second most powerful baddie that must be defeated, previously considered to be Redcloak.

I doubt it, but unlikeliness has never stopped people from posting theories here before!

Doug Lampert

2009-03-19, 11:11 AM

Well, 100 miles is more than 160 kilometers, (http://www.google.com/search?q=100+miles+in+km) so it is pretty long, even more than highway speend per hour.

Sounds like a probable European.

In terms of travel distances if you can drive there and back in one day with time left over to do things it's not just close, it's VERY close.

100 miles? I've known several people with a longer one way commute to work than that.

Shall we now start with the stories about Europeans who've heard that LA and SF are close togather and assume it's a short drive rather than six or more hours? Or who've heard that Boston and Dallas aren't close togather and assume that this means it takes a few hours to drive rather than the actual 2 or 3 days.

Lichtouch

2009-03-19, 11:33 AM

The dragon is pink because of what the colours represent.

Pink is V's colour - it's raw, arcane power. Also, black because of how evil V has become in his FINAL FORM and so on and so forth.

There's no actual pink dragon.

rxmd

2009-03-19, 11:40 AM

Only, we learn here not to go around and #swallow whole. Or eat eggs.
Well V is certainly no cockatrice, but at least the first of your examples serves to prove that this particular black dragon was not a nethack player.

Do you want your possessions identified? [Y/N]

JVWest

2009-03-19, 11:52 AM

Wicked story arc!

Mr. Pin

2009-03-19, 12:00 PM

I like the "shield" that she threw in there... The dragon could have totally KO'd her with a maximized Magic Missile otherwise.

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 12:12 PM

Shall we now start with the stories about Europeans who've heard that LA and SF are close togather and assume it's a short drive rather than six or more hours? Or who've heard that Boston and Dallas aren't close togather and assume that this means it takes a few hours to drive rather than the actual 2 or 3 days.

A visiting European once remarked to my mother that he couldn't believe so many Americans only speak English. She thought about it, then pointed out that, starting from her place of residence (the Midwest), she'd have to drive a minimum of two and a half days, NE or SW, to go anyplace where English wasn't the dominant language.

Chronus

2009-03-19, 12:15 PM

motub

2009-03-19, 12:29 PM

Actually Prismatic Dragons (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/epic/monsters/PRISMATIC_DRAGON.html) are pretty much pink. Also, they are EPIC
Also also, they are :smallbiggrin: usually of neutral alignment :smallbiggrin: .

That makes me really happy.... I don't know what V's going to do next, but so far, shi's holding the line against Evil rather admirably, if that really is a Prismatic Dragon.

I'm pretty impressed, or actually, growing more impressed.

Hang on, V!

Ikialev

2009-03-19, 12:46 PM

Kaytara

2009-03-19, 12:57 PM

Heh heh heh he looks like this dragon from Young Adult magazines heh. Also, what gave her Slashes in 6th panel? Not Acid Immunity, not Stoneskin, I believe, not Mind Blank, hell, why did he use a mind blank? Not PfS, not Shield, Fireballs don't scratch. Why use a Delayed fireball? Time is frozen, I don't think it would matter. Pointer of Pointlessness, heh.

Slashes are from the Fire Shield, which deals damage based on attacks dealt to the person protected by the Fire Shield.
V used a Mind Blank as a contingency against any mind manipulating spells the dragon could have thrown at him, like Suggestion or Hold Person.
What do you mean, why use a Delayed Fireball? It mattered quite nicely in the comic. :) We see the "BOOM!" from it in the panel with V's family.

Regarding the discussion of the combat rounds, I do not think that Vaarsuvius necessarily skipped a round while the Delayed Blast Fireball detonated. He's off-panel, after all, and while the focus is briefly on the family it's not that crucial to know of every single spell Vaarsuvius has cast.

Those saying the dragon is stupid because she didn't chew.... It's possible dragons simply CANNOT chew. As someone already mentioned, if they eat something big they can just rip off chunks of the meat and let the rock-dissolving acid in their stomach do the rest, and that isn't even necessary for a frail little elf.

Rotipher

2009-03-19, 01:17 PM

Those saying the dragon is stupid because she didn't chew.... It's possible dragons simply CANNOT chew. As someone already mentioned, if they eat something big they can just rip off chunks of the meat and let the rock-dissolving acid in their stomach do the rest, and that isn't even necessary for a frail little elf.

Chewing would probably entail taking Fire Shield damage every time her teeth clashed together. Instead, Mama attempted to neutralize the elf in one attack, not knowing that V was now acid-resistant and wouldn't be rendered mute and incapacitated by corrosive agony, once swallowed.

rxmd

2009-03-19, 01:39 PM

Heh heh heh he looks like this dragon from Young Adult magazines heh.
Nice! V is the new Miss October (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html).

Zherog

2009-03-19, 01:46 PM

Why use a Delayed fireball? Time is frozen, I don't think it would matter. Pointer of Pointlessness, heh.

Time stop doesn't allow for spells to affect your opponents while time is on hold. Delayed blast fireball is necessary because the caster can set it to detonate after the time stop ends. (it has the small side benefit of doing slightly more damage than a regular fireball.)

harami2000

2009-03-19, 01:51 PM

Those saying the dragon is stupid because she didn't chew.... It's possible dragons simply CANNOT chew.
The next time my mother reminds me to chew my food, I'll tell her the saying is "bite", not "chew". :smallbiggrin:

As someone already mentioned, if they eat something big they can just rip off chunks of the meat and let the rock-dissolving acid in their stomach do the rest, and that isn't even necessary for a frail little elf.
Visibly unharmed, ubermagic-wielding "frail little elf" who'd need to do no more than stick a dagger on the inside of the dragon's throat to ensure shi never got to the stomach? (or whip out a jade circlet ;)). As that was a voluntarily offered "swallow whole" opportunity, I'd be darned sure to bite first to stop the magic rather than have that live somewhere inside me.
Totally rattled ABD who's also acting on suggestions she can hear in her mind would go some way to explaining that irrational behavior but the recovery from that to presumption of victory without a hint of "oh, oh, was that really a good idea?" is too darned quick.
(For those who insist shapechange works like that in their world without the need for "free space" and doing no damage to the shapechanger, please remember to smile when there's a no-warning TPK of their high level characters in the next fly-infested narrow, cylindrical corridor they encounter).

aside: loss of one's own supernatural abilities on shapechange? Or am I misreferencing for lack of 3e books. :smallwink:

Good arc, anyhow. :smallsmile:

Majorman

2009-03-19, 02:10 PM

Oh, look at the pink flying dragon. It's so cute! I want to hug it! Can I mommy, can I? :D

AyuVince

2009-03-19, 02:49 PM

Oh, what an awesome way to kill someone. Incidentally, I once ran a campaign in which one of the players was a vampire. During one fight, he turned gaseous, entered a gnoll's lungs and turned humanoid again. We had a long fight about how this is not possible according to the rules. It would make combat too easy for that player.

Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, can get away with it. The Giant has often ignored the rules for dramatic effect. Also, V IS EPIC.

Dr.Desastro

2009-03-19, 02:59 PM

Why do I think of the following?

Shang Tsung wins. FATALITY!!!

Nice...veeeery nice ^^

Ikialev

2009-03-19, 04:54 PM

Time stop doesn't allow for spells to affect your opponents while time is on hold. Delayed blast fireball is necessary because the caster can set it to detonate after the time stop ends. (it has the small side benefit of doing slightly more damage than a regular fireball.)

Yes, but isn't the fireball stopped in time too?

Ultimate Dragon

2009-03-19, 05:19 PM

:vaarsuvius:that's one dead dragon. ah well, at least A dragon won. the dragon also seemed to hear the extra soul's voices. aside from that, HOLY CRAP! go V! :vaarsuvius:

Zherog

2009-03-19, 05:46 PM

Yes, but isn't the fireball stopped in time too?

No, whatever you cast during a time stop happens right then and there. For example, all those defensive spells V cast took effect the moment he cast them. Here's the text of the spell:

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

(emphasis added)

The underlined bits are the reason to use delayed blast fireball - it has a duration longer than instantaneous, so it affects any targets normally once time resumes.

Kish

2009-03-19, 05:47 PM

Yes, but isn't the fireball stopped in time too?
No, you cannot cast spells with an "Instantaneous" duration during a Time Stop and have them go off when the Time Stop ends. Time Stop doesn't work that way.

bluewind95

2009-03-19, 05:50 PM

Wow... I wasn't expecting V to win like that. That was.... scary and awesome at the same time.

David Argall

2009-03-19, 06:27 PM

Remember, V would have the strength of his new form.
Of course. But that will not be noticeably greater than Mama Dragon had. V’s new form is about the same size as Mama and should be assumed to have the same basic stats, give or take a few points. And Mama is built to withstand Mama strength. Our base principle here would be that she has the con to handle this.

Huh? You can totally easy pull out your own entrails.
Not if you have to break your skin to do it. And if that is not cut or broken, that is a very hard task. Try tearning some meat instead of cutting it to see the difference. V can’t bite and slowly dig a hole. She must expand as one big bubble.

Or break your own arm.
Here you are using leverage. “Give me a platform to stand on and I can move the world.” Again, this is something V can’t do.

Or gouge out your eye.
We are talking here of a trivial part of particularly vulnerability, not the general case.

With enough strength, you can break your own ribcage, tear off fingets etc.
Right, with enough strength, and the strength needed to tear the dragon apart is simply far greater than V could have.

A morning stretch cant break you since you're stretching. I.e. giving in to the force. V applied strength past the point of stretching, and actually tore the ABD from within. What's so confusing about that?
The confusing part is where that strength came from. V is not greatly stronger than the dragon, who is built to survive such strength. So that means V can’t apply that much strength.

DnD rules allow STR checks to break out of confinement when magically enlarging. If a creature can break stone walls and iron containers, why can't it tear open the flesh of another creature?
It shouldn’t really allow breaking of stone or iron unless they are quite slender. When it happens, we rationalize that there are unnoticed weaknesses. [Note here that Strength checks can lead to nonsense like the party barbarian being unable to lift a chest the party mage easily carries.] But it is rather hard to explain such weird stuff in our current case.

Going by the obvious rules, V would have a maximum of about 32 on a strength check. [D20+str bonus]
Now when we use the tables on 166 in PH, V is already in danger because even a one-inch diameter normal rope is DC23. Next we note that going from a one inch manacles to a 2 inch iron door raises the DC by two, and going from 1ft of stone to 3 ft raises the DC by 15. And our dragon is something like 6 ft across. 1 inch to 6 ft might increase the DC by a wide range of figures using those quoted, but the minimum has to be in excess of 15. So our DC for exploding the dragon is something in excess of 40, well above V’s best roll.

One of ABD's friends/relatives/minions could bring her back to life, and she'd'be on V's case harder than ever.
Well, they could, but Mama dragon didn’t even raise hubby. And dragons are pretty much loners. The odds are way against there being anybody willing to put up the gold and effort.

Damage taken

Assuming average rolls per die

V has stoneskin up, that takes ten off of each attack

Bite (full str) 2d8+11 (20 damage) -10 = 10

Claw 1 (1/2 str) 2d6 +5 13 damage -10 = 3 damage

Claw 2 (1/2 str) 2d6 +5 13 damage -10 = 3 damage

Wing 1 (1/2 str) 1d8 +5 = 9 damage -10= 0 damage

Wing 2 (1/2 str) 1d8 +5 = 10 damage -10= 0 damage
Wing damage is actually 1.125. The damage reduction is subtracted from each roll not from the combined total. When 1-5 is roll, we have zero. When 7 or 8, we actually get some damage. The claws are also slightly above 3 for the same sort of reason.

Tail (1.5 str) 2d6 +16= 23 -10= 13 damage

Total: 39 damage

Finger of death

3d6+ 1/level on save (obviously made)

3d6+14 = 10.5 + 14 damage= 24 damage.

24+39= 63 hp.

14th level wizard with no con bonus 4 +(2.5X13) = 36 hp. With bears endurance =64

Now a wizard of 13-4th level is almost sure to have at least an amulet+4 of health, quite possibly +6. So we should add 26/8 hp.

We can reduce the damage by the dragon’s chance of missing. With 6 attacks, the chance of a 1 is substantial. [tho that works out to an average of 2 points.] The dragon is +40 or so, which makes hitting on a 2 rather likely, but V did cast Shield, and a first level spell is an odd enough choice without one of its major benefits being useless. So it could be that V has an AC higher than 30, [Those that tweek such things can reach the 80s.] and the dragon may miss fairly often.

Still, it does look like V should be showing some damage.

What I wonder about is what the dragon said at the end "For a moment I thought it had been all for nothing". There is something more going here than we have seen so far.
I would presume she referred to her entire revenge program. She certainly doesn’t care if V has turned evil or not, and likely thinks V’s family will cheer him as the victor. So she likely sees live V and family as a total failure for her.

Daze

2009-03-19, 07:00 PM

Prediction:

V still mad with power and now transmorphed into a full fledged pink dragon EATS his own family. Thus fulfilling the Black Dragon's promise. Upon returning to human form, he goes completely insane upon realizing the horror he commited... whereupon the soul splice ends and the demons call in their favors.

Or maybe not... but this much absolute power never seems to end well for those who wield it.

Island Gorilla

2009-03-19, 07:03 PM

But not so foolish when the strip is written by a Western male living in recent times.

More foolish than you'd think when you consider said Western male has shown progressive and atypical sensibilities regarding gender roles and associated trends, on multiple occasions.

BillyJimBoBob

2009-03-19, 07:35 PM

Awesome update!

On another note, my note on the pink dragon seems to be my most-quoted statement itP...Creating competition, pointlessly. :smallbiggrin:

Saint Nil

2009-03-19, 07:47 PM

That was pure epic in scale sir.:smalleek:*Assinate Fin*
Pun not intended

Honestly though, my favorite part had to be the commentation of the wizards though.
Red Light!:smallbiggrin:

BillyJimBoBob

2009-03-19, 08:10 PM

Let me show you something I've learned on this forum: Strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man).Please, do not blame this forum for your woeful misunderstanding and misuse of a few logical fallacies. The word "learned" does not mean what you think it means.

Sutremaine

2009-03-19, 09:30 PM

Wow... I wasn't expecting V to win like that. That was.... scary and awesome at the same time.
Yup. Not only was it planned, but it's unclear how much of the sadism involved is coming from V herself. She did promise prolonged vengeance upon Belkar after he checked out her lizard form, and in the aftermath of the kiss did various unpleasant things to him for her own amusement.

The only surprise here is that I'm surprised by V's vengefulness. She has mentioned it at least twice, after all.

Laughing Dragon

2009-03-19, 11:06 PM

Sorry David Argall ...

I really don't think that strength has anything to do with breaking out from the inside of the ABD in this case.

It's simply a matter of what follows naturally after something WAY too big is magically placed inside something too small to contain it.

Also, bodies (and many other objects) are much more vulnerable to internal pressure than extenal pressure.

Ergo ... when bite-sized V changed into something significantly larger the ABD succombed to basic physics.

A rather sick friend once told me that he used to do something similar to seagulls.

suppoko

2009-03-19, 11:34 PM

So it could be that V has an AC higher than 30, [Those that tweek such things can reach the 80s.] and the dragon may miss fairly often.

To get in the 80s you need feats none of the 4 of those wizards are even capable of getting but that is not the point. Also a great wyrm black had +43 to hit. I chalk this whole thing up to V was damn supposed to win with a side of "look at all my neat powers" tacked on for good measure. I jsut hope V stays alive it's my favorite char.

motub

2009-03-20, 12:52 AM

Also a great wyrm black had +43 to hit.
Don't think Mama was that old (or that big)-- signs (and portents) seem to suggest/confirm that we call the ABD the ABD because she is indeed an Ancient Black Dragon (possibly close to ascending to Wrym status, but not there yet, and certainly not a Great Wrym).

Question, though: What (in terms of combat actions) was, or rather why was V able to cast the Time Stop at the appropriate moment? I was looking at it, and it seems to me that V's attack came during the dragon's turn, or am I wrong?

If the dragon gets 6 attacks per round, then the breath weapon and the 4 natural weapon attacks (bite, two claws, two wings, tail) would have constituted one round for the dragon, but this was interrupted by the Time Stop, which suggests that V got an Attack of Opportunity for some reason (where none of those attacks seem to normally provoke/allow one).

Did that roar of rage from the dragon suggest something (like a Charge, or some kind of distraction) that indicated that she had opened herself up to such an AoO, or am I just mistaken about the combat round structure?

Kish

2009-03-20, 01:06 AM

Don't think Mama was that old (or that big)-- signs (and portents) seem to suggest/confirm that we call the ABD the ABD because she is indeed an Ancient Black Dragon (possibly close to ascending to Wrym status, but not there yet, and certainly not a Great Wrym).

Question, though: What (in terms of combat actions) was, or rather why was V able to cast the Time Stop at the appropriate moment? I was looking at it, and it seems to me that V's attack came during the dragon's turn, or am I wrong?

If the dragon gets 6 attacks per round, then the breath weapon and the 4 natural weapon attacks (bite, two claws, two wings, tail) would have constituted one round for the dragon, but this was interrupted by the Time Stop, which suggests that V got an Attack of Opportunity for some reason (where none of those attacks seem to normally provoke/allow one).

Did that roar of rage from the dragon suggest something (like a Charge, or some kind of distraction) that indicated that she had opened herself up to such an AoO, or am I just mistaken about the combat round structure?
Six attacks is one bite, two claws, two wings, one tail slap ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm ). Using her breath weapon is a standard action--if she uses it, all she can do the same round is a move action. So:
Round 1: Dragon casts Anti-Magic Field. Vaarsuvius casts Disjunction and Quickened Disintegrate.
Round 2: Dragon breathes. Vaarsuvius casts Time Stop.
etc.

suppoko

2009-03-20, 01:07 AM

Don't think Mama was that old (or that big)-- signs (and portents) seem to suggest/confirm that we call the ABD the ABD because she is indeed an Ancient Black Dragon (possibly close to ascending to Wrym status, but not there yet, and certainly not a Great Wrym).

Question, though: What (in terms of combat actions) was, or rather why was V able to cast the Time Stop at the appropriate moment? I was looking at it, and it seems to me that V's attack came during the dragon's turn, or am I wrong?

If the dragon gets 6 attacks per round, then the breath weapon and the 4 natural weapon attacks (bite, two claws, two wings, tail) would have constituted one round for the dragon, but this was interrupted by the Time Stop, which suggests that V got an Attack of Opportunity for some reason (where none of those attacks seem to normally provoke/allow one).

Did that roar of rage from the dragon suggest something (like a Charge, or some kind of distraction) that indicated that she had opened herself up to such an AoO, or am I just mistaken about the combat round structure?

Well a breath waepon is not part of a full attack for a dragon. the dragon would get either the breath or the physical. as far as calling it an ABD going off game stats it can't be or it is not a powerful enough sorc to cast greater teleport as GT is a 7th lvl spell and an ABD is only an 11th lvl caster.
And an AOO has to be a melee attack no spells, that and V does not have reach so thats not possible either.

Xentropy

2009-03-20, 01:25 AM

Well a breath waepon is not part of a full attack for a dragon. the dragon would get either the breath or the physical. as far as calling it an ABD going off game stats it can't be or it is not a powerful enough sorc to cast greater teleport as GT is a 7th lvl spell and an ABD is only an 11th lvl caster.
And an AOO has to be a melee attack no spells, that and V does not have reach so thats not possible either.

This has been covered in previous comic threads on that subject. The ABD was specifically described as ancient in-strip, and upon introduction mentioned having a special passion for the arcane arts beyond the level of others of her own kind, which is understood by earlier posters to mean she has class levels in sorcerer.

Jophes

2009-03-20, 01:43 AM

Oh you D&D rules people make the comic less enjoyable with all your banter. Rich said that it wasn't a pure D&D comic before, and I'm sure he'll stick by it in the future. Quit over analyzing everything :smallmad:

...oh and in other news that comic was great :smallbiggrin:

Morgan Wick

2009-03-20, 02:24 AM

Perhaps all the shields? ("I will eat you ALIVE, flames or no flames!") Or are you referring to the act of eating her in general?

Now I'm absolutely dreading 639... I can barely stand to read 527 and I suspect 639 will be similar...

Although it could be that a sign of how evil V is becoming is that she just departs after killing the dragon, leaving her mate still tied up and her kids still helpless.

derfenrirwolv

2009-03-20, 05:12 AM

Wing damage is actually 1.125. The damage reduction is subtracted from each roll not from the combined total.

I did subtract it from each wing. Each attack has its own line.

When 1-5 is roll, we have zero. When 7 or 8, we actually get some damage. The claws are also slightly above 3 for the same sort of reason.

This is why i was assuming an average roll, not calculating average DAMAGE. I also left out the potential damage from crits. Normaly in a 1/20 situation the crits and misses average each other out, but when there's damage reduction involved the crits help more than the misses hurt i think.

Now a wizard of 13-4th level is almost sure to have at least an amulet+4 of health, quite possibly +6. So we should add 26/8 hp.

No. An amulet of health grants a +X enhancement bonus to constitution. Bears endurance grants a +4 enhancement bonus. Bonuses of the same kind do not stack. Casting the spell would be completely pointless if he had such a magic item.

OOTSers seem to have far fewer magic items than most campaigns, not because we don't see them, but because they cast alot of buffs on themselves that most parties would have as magic items.

We can reduce the damage by the dragon’s chance of missing. With 6 attacks, the chance of a 1 is substantial. [tho that works out to an average of 2 points.] The dragon is +40 or so, which makes hitting on a 2 rather likely, but V did cast Shield, and a first level spell is an odd enough choice without one of its major benefits being useless. So it could be that V has an AC higher than 30, [Those that tweek such things can reach the 80s.] and the dragon may miss fairly often.

That's unneccesary. The dragon hit all six times. Its Mouth, wing, wing, claw, claw, and tail are all shown as being on fire. Never assert mathematical or philosophical speculation in place of an observation :) If you can get out of the lab and LOOK at it, you get more reliable results than armchair speculation. (A Scientist, mathematician and a philosopher all go to the Dean for funding...)

The shield was likely to prevent magic missles. I would also like to see a pre epic AC in the 80's that didn't use 3rd party material or ignored the stacking rules.

The chances of the dragon not missing once (assuming a natral 1 is required) is (.95)^6 or 73.5%.

Still, it does look like V should be showing some damage.

He's just too cool for battle damage.

David Argall

2009-03-20, 07:26 PM

This is why i was assuming an average roll, not calculating average DAMAGE.
But we are concerned with average damage, not the average roll.

OOTSers seem to have far fewer magic items than most campaigns, not because we don't see them, but because they cast alot of buffs on themselves that most parties would have as magic items.
W&XP Roy & Belkar have a conversation that suggests the party members have a fair amount of magic items. They are just off-stage for the most part.

derfenrirwolv

2009-03-22, 07:15 AM

But we are concerned with average damage, not the average roll.

As the forum won't allow me to import a spreadsheet i wasn't even trying to figure that out. I stated as much. The math is correct for my STATED assumptions in a quick and dirty estimate of damage done.

Re: the spoiler

There is no reason to assume V has an amulet of health, and i haven't seen an explanation offered for WHY he would cast bears endurance if he had one.

Or that most characters do, given that Durokon memorizes mass bears endurance. The magic items may be out of sight to the reader, but presumably the other party members know about them. You don't cast bears' on a party member with an amulet of natural health, or cat's grace on a character with a gauntlet of dexterity... the spell and the magic item are both an enhancement bonus and this do not stack.

Its also possible that the OoTS's magic item wealth is more concentrated in a few big items rather than spread out. Roy's +5 "starmetal" sword of undead slaying that Glows when Roy is really really ticked for example.