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revolver kobold
2009-03-18, 10:55 PM
I remember reading a thread, I can't remember if it was here or over at Wizards, where the classes had been sorted out into different tiers of power. For the life of me I can't find it using any of the search functions, or even Google.

If somebody could post a link to it, that would be great.

Cheers.

Eldariel
2009-03-18, 11:01 PM
Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) is probably what you're thinking of. There same forum houses some other peoples' stabs at the same idea and an attempt at categorizing PrCs.

revolver kobold
2009-03-18, 11:13 PM
Yep, thats exactly what I was looking for.

Cheers mate.

sonofzeal
2009-03-18, 11:41 PM
...and an attempt at categorizing PrCs.
You wouldn't happen to be referring to li'l old me, now would you? :smallwink:

(LINK PIMPAGE (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0))

Frosty
2009-03-19, 02:36 AM
WTF...Bloodstorm blade brings you DOWN a tier? Are you kidding me? BSB is made of awesome-sauce. You lose out on maneuvers known but at least you still get full Initiator levels so when you go back to Warblade you can get your high level maneuvers. It is a terrific 2-5 level dip depending on what you're going for. Some ridiculous builds that can deal thousands of damage to all targets within throwing range even uses 10 levels of the class.

sonofzeal
2009-03-19, 03:18 AM
WTF...Bloodstorm blade brings you DOWN a tier? Are you kidding me? BSB is made of awesome-sauce. You lose out on maneuvers known but at least you still get full Initiator levels so when you go back to Warblade you can get your high level maneuvers. It is a terrific 2-5 level dip depending on what you're going for. Some ridiculous builds that can deal thousands of damage to all targets within throwing range even uses 10 levels of the class.
Mmmm... I see your point, but it struck me as odd that it doesn't advance maneuvers. As something that by default requires Warblade levels at the outset, that means it's got to be judged against the standard of 9th level maneuvers the Warblade would otherwise be getting.

The question is, how does a generic Warblade10/Bloodstorm10 stack up against a generic Warblade20, all else being equal? Which is generally the stronger teammate or the more dangerous enemy? Again, the system is explicitly not based on whether there's any "ridiculous builds", just how well it holds up when played straight. That means I'm not concerned with dips, or with sneaky combos, just the class taken as a whole.

That said, while I'm a bit reluctant about bumping it up to equal, I don't really have a problem with it either. I make those separate posts first because I'm not always right, and when in doubt I'll generally go with the popular opinion.


Side note - where does it say you get IL progression? That would bring it back up to parity for me, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Frosty
2009-03-19, 10:03 AM
It depends on when the levels are taken. With WB 5/BSB 10/WB 5? I'd say it at least breaks even. This method allows you to get your level 9 Maneuvers.

sonofzeal
2009-03-19, 02:36 PM
It depends on when the levels are taken. With WB 5/BSB 10/WB 5? I'd say it at least breaks even. This method allows you to get your level 9 Maneuvers.
I can't seem to see the rules that lets you do that. I'll agree that if it adds to IL then it breaks even, but if it doesn't add to IL then I don't really see it (except for two-level dips, which is worth a special note imo). Can you show me where it says it improves your IL?

hamishspence
2009-03-19, 02:58 PM
p39 under Initiator level and martial prestige classes "in most cases, you add full prestige class level to your levels in martial class to determine initiator level"

Dacia Brabant
2009-03-19, 03:03 PM
I can't seem to see the rules that lets you do that. I'll agree that if it adds to IL then it breaks even, but if it doesn't add to IL then I don't really see it (except for two-level dips, which is worth a special note imo). Can you show me where it says it improves your IL?

It doesn't, unless there's errata for it I guess. The sample Bloodstorm Blade (Fighter 2/Warblade 5/BB 8) given on pages 104-105 has an Initiator Level of 10, 5 from Warblade and 5 from half his other class levels.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-19, 06:23 PM
Side note - where does it say you get IL progression? That would bring it back up to parity for me, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Sample character (those aren't always correct sadly though)

It is possible it adds 1/2...but the intent was full (sample character).

Frosty
2009-03-19, 06:59 PM
It doesn't, unless there's errata for it I guess. The sample Bloodstorm Blade (Fighter 2/Warblade 5/BB 8) given on pages 104-105 has an Initiator Level of 10, 5 from Warblade and 5 from half his other class levels.

I believe the sample character is in error. WoTC makes PLENTY of errors in sample characters.

In any case, if BSB does NOT advance Initiator levels, then it downright sucks and deserves the -1 Tier. If it does advance IL, then it is +0 I think.

Eldariel
2009-03-19, 08:23 PM
All the PrCs that advance IL state so in the "maneuvers"-description. That's all of them except for Bloodstorm Blade; makes sense too since Bloodstorm Blade is the only one that doesn't advance Maneuvers either.

So the example character is correct - Bloodstorm Blade does not advance IL, thus making it savvy to maximize your Warblade-levels before entering for the prerequisite maneuvers to burn. That said, thankfully low-level maneuvers are plenty useful anyways so the levels are by no means wasted even though BSB itself only adds half to the IL.

BSB-builds rarely focus around maneuvers anyways, so it isn't that big of a loss.

sonofzeal
2009-03-19, 08:53 PM
p39 under Initiator level and martial prestige classes "in most cases, you add full prestige class level to your levels in martial class to determine initiator level"
Thanks for that. And for this, I have to agree with Eldariel - a PrC that grants maneuvers would advance IL too, but BSB doesn't so I'm inclined to believe the sample character. Which sucks, because ranged combat characters need all the help they can get. I'll put in the note about the two level dip though.


Any other errors/corrections/additions/suggestions? Anyone willing to go through one of the environmental books and rate those?

Sinfire Titan
2009-03-20, 12:58 AM
It doesn't, unless there's errata for it I guess. The sample Bloodstorm Blade (Fighter 2/Warblade 5/BB 8) given on pages 104-105 has an Initiator Level of 10, 5 from Warblade and 5 from half his other class levels.

:furious:



You should know better than that.

Bauglir
2009-03-21, 08:53 PM
Really gotta get around to exacting justice on whoever did that to the ToB errata.

Frosty
2009-03-21, 09:02 PM
Is there actually an errata printed by Wotc?

Muad'dib
2009-03-22, 01:31 PM
Is there actually an errata printed by Wotc?

Well that depends entirely of on your definition of what errata is. If errata is a single correction for two different maneuvers followed by unintelligible gibberish for the complete arcane, then yes WOTC did print errata for ToB.

Cedrass
2009-03-22, 01:50 PM
Here's the most official I found as far as Errata goes...: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775