The dragon should have won

[GoC]

She could have just cast anti-magic field (standard action) and moved into V's square (move action) like she did last time.

Without magic V would obviously have lost.

[Elder Tsofu]

But she didn't, and thats the important part.

[Cúchulainn]

Yeah 3 epic magic users are going to stop and blink at a 6th level spell.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Um... She DID cast anti-magic field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)... V's augmented Disjunction went through it like a hot knife through butter!

a 6th level spel vs. Epic magic? Bet on the Epic magic!

[Estrosiath]

V could just have blasted her to all hells with a single epic spell. He just chose the non-epic way.

[SAMAS]

V could just have blasted her to all hells with a single epic spell. He just chose the non-epic way.

You call THAT non-Epic?

[Snake-Aes]

You call THAT non-Epic?

The spells themselves were definitely non-epic. Epic spells are to regular spells what idkfa is to Doom's first level.

[Estrosiath]

The way he employed was epic in its execution, but it certainly lacked the oomph that epic spells have.

[rxmd]

Epic spells are to regular spells what idkfa is to Doom's first level.
Unnecessary overkill? :smalltongue:

[MickJay]

Without magic V would obviously have lost.

Well, that is the whole point, here.

[Snake-Aes]

Unnecessary overkill? :smalltongue:

Overkill is a matter of context. I'd totally find many many uses for spells with the power to create masses of land or down giants that slow down the planet's rotation with every step they walk. Or a 2km wide fireball to drop a whole army in a couple shots.

[magic9mushroom]

She could have just cast anti-magic field (standard action) and moved into V's square (move action) like she did last time.

Without magic V would obviously have lost.

Um, no.

V would have moved out of the dragon's square (move action) and used Disjunction (standard action). Plus a quickened spell to hurt it some more.

Besides which, the dragon would have been getting low on 6th level spell slots by this point.

[King of Nowhere]

"The dragon should have won" is a bit too extreme, but I keep thinking she got a better chance than this, epic magic or not. "The dragon could have won" would have been a better thread (and I was thinking of making it myself). Forgive me if I keep being sceptical about the power of something that has the hp, CA and saves of a fungus and is stuck in melee.
Let's see the details

1) Disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level to dismiss antimagic field. If the caster level were separate, it would have been 30% chance to work, tops, and V got lucky (plot power). If the caster levels stack, then it was about 80% chance it would work. V could still have rolled low.
I prefer to think it is an houserule that disjunction automatically dissipate an AMF.

2) V did a bad mistake in striking immediately. The dragon had 6 attacks per round, and a listed STR of 33 (she was not an average dragon, so it may change a bit). Had she full attacked V in her first round INSTEAD of casting AMF, V could have been dead before having the chance of casting a single spell (V should have cast time stop to buff before even teleporting). V dismissed the AMF, and AGAIN the dragon got a good chance to kill hir, which she wasted spitting acid.

3) Even if the saving against said acid is reflexes halves, and V could have saved only with a 20, Apparently V took no damage (it's 32 d4). AGAIN. So maybe this is another houserule (reflexes negate), but V still got lucky.

4) Stoneskin offers a DR of 10/adamantium. The claw/claw/bite deal much more than that. So V shoul have taken at least 30 damages from the attacks.

5) Even with protection from spells (+8 to saving throws) Finger of death had a DC of at least 20, and V had still about 30-40% chance of failing. Even succeeding, V should have taken at least 3d6 + 15 damage, which, added to what V took previously, means that he's still alive only thanks to bear's endurance (or is dead anyway).

6) Lady dragon could have teleported away at any moment. After trying finger of death would have been the more appropriate time.

7) I'm not sure shapeshift can do that.

So, if V was showed pretty hurt at the end of the fight, it would have been perfect. But apparently V took no damage at all, which I find hard to believe.

I saw someone proposing that V got the half fiend template, that would grant hir spell resistance (nullify finger of death) extra hp (to sustain damage taken) and damage resistance (but it wouldn't have stacked with stoneskin) and acid resistance (V should still have taken some damage from the acid breath). It is possible and it would explain everything.

It is also possible, since V didn't use them, that in fact he cannot cast epic spells for some reason.

[Zelthax]

@King of Nowhere:

I don't know much about D&D, but it seems that you do. So your rationalization of the battle I must accept as legit.

However, I shall make a reference to earlier in the strip's history:

Strip 200 had the most epic fight to date, with the entire Order of the Stick taking it from Miko. Durkon then rationalized that without the rain storm (supposedly an omen from Thor), the team would've taken Miko in two or three rounds.

Later, after the Hotel incident, Roy openly stood up to Miko, with his entire team (save Durkon, who we later find actually did help via healing, though not actually fighting) fighting against a lone angry paladin. Roy's words, as he was being led in chains to Azure city were "Stupid Railroad Plot."

This seems to be another situation like the case of OOTS v Miko. When V gained epic power, there was little doubt that he would not kill the dragon. The drawback to the power wasn't the power's limitations, it is/was the cost at which he gained them.

So effectively, when V "Went down the rabbit hole," he not only gained near-unlimited arcane power, he also gained the strongest power of all(moreso than divine):

The power of PLOT!

And with the power of Plot on your side, you can take down a group of high level adventurers, or defeat an Ancient Black Dragon.

So I agree with you that the ABD could have won. But I wholehearly disagree(with the OP) that the Dragon should have won. I find the case stronger on V's side that he should have won (which he did).

[Fireballing_Fun]

She could have just cast anti-magic field (standard action) and moved into V's square (move action) like she did last time.

Without magic V would obviously have lost.

Yes a minor dragon should easily be able to kill the most powerful wizard that has likely ever lived in that world.

No... I don't think so.

[Mando Knight]

Unnecessary overkill? :smalltongue:

Rule 37.

http://store.schlockmercenary.com/v/vspfiles/photos/P-R37-2.jpg

[DigoDragon]

I expected the dragon to lose because the dragon was written poorly for a highly intelligent creature. It could have put up a decent fight with it's multiple attacks and magic, but really it decided that the right idea was to swallow the enemy. Not even an attempt to chew V up in her maw of sharp teeth or throw up some protective magic of her own, just... swallow.

The least she could have done was to breath acid on V's family and take them out with her, thus making V's victory a bit hollow. So my opinion is that I expected the dragon to lose, but she shouldn't have lost stupidly.

[silvadel]

Did anyone wonder about the "It would have all been for nothing" line by the dragon? This makes me think that something is "up" with the dragon -- like it made some kind of "deal" as well.

[Snake-Aes]

Did anyone wonder about the "It would have all been for nothing" line by the dragon? This makes me think that something is "up" with the dragon -- like it made some kind of "deal" as well.

When one spends months plotting against someone and almost fails, one would think "One mistake and it'd all be for nothing!".

[pendell]

Let's see if I understand what happened:

Round 1: V arrives. Dragon responds with AMF.

Round 2: V disjoins the AMF. Free action conversation. Black dragon fires acid. V dodges.

Round 3: The dragon, having to wait to recharge her breath weapon, closes to melee.
V casts time stop. Using quicken, V fires off 5 buffs and 1 delayed blast fireball, since ze can't directly harm the dragon during time stop.
Time resumes.

Round 4: The dragon's melee attack does no damage to V whatsoever, but the fire shield means she damages herself. Multiple scratches visible. No apparent damage to V.
Delayed fireball detonates. More damage to ABD. V -- does nothing?

Round 5: The dragon, still re-charging her breath weapon and seeing her melee attacks
are futile, fires a finger of death. It bounces off V's protection from spells. V -- does nothing?

Round 6: The dragon, unable to breathe, unable to melee, unable to magic, in desperation swallows V, flames and all. Doing damage to her insides as the fiery morsel went into her stomach. Like a circus performer? Has she got ranks in fire-eating?

V shapechanges, tearing the dragon to bits.

Did I miss anything?

Question.

What if V had fired off six delayed blast fireballs while time stopped rather than buffing himself? What if she kept timestopping and blasting or energy draining?

Was this really the most efficient way to kill the ABD? Or am I correct that V was toying with the ABD, deliberately foregoing opportunities to attack?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[magic9mushroom]

"The dragon should have won" is a bit too extreme, but I keep thinking she got a better chance than this, epic magic or not. "The dragon could have won" would have been a better thread (and I was thinking of making it myself). Forgive me if I keep being sceptical about the power of something that has the hp, CA and saves of a fungus and is stuck in melee.
Let's see the details

1) Disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level to dismiss antimagic field. If the caster level were separate, it would have been 30% chance to work, tops, and V got lucky (plot power). If the caster levels stack, then it was about 80% chance it would work. V could still have rolled low.
I prefer to think it is an houserule that disjunction automatically dissipate an AMF.

If they stack, and each is CL 30, then V is CL 104, and there's no chance involved.


2) V did a bad mistake in striking immediately. The dragon had 6 attacks per round, and a listed STR of 33 (she was not an average dragon, so it may change a bit). Had she full attacked V in her first round INSTEAD of casting AMF, V could have been dead before having the chance of casting a single spell (V should have cast time stop to buff before even teleporting). V dismissed the AMF, and AGAIN the dragon got a good chance to kill hir, which she wasted spitting acid.

No. The dragon couldn't full attack for either of the first two rounds. First round was a surprise round, so only a partial action, and AMF was fairly prudent methinks. Second round V was still out of reach so close while aciding seems good to me.


3) Even if the saving against said acid is reflexes halves, and V could have saved only with a 20, Apparently V took no damage (it's 32 d4). AGAIN. So maybe this is another houserule (reflexes negate), but V still got lucky.

20d4, not 32d4. And V did take damage, but did save.


4) Stoneskin offers a DR of 10/adamantium. The claw/claw/bite deal much more than that. So V shoul have taken at least 30 damages from the attacks.

Not all of them may have hit, remember.


5) Even with protection from spells (+8 to saving throws) Finger of death had a DC of at least 20, and V had still about 30-40% chance of failing. Even succeeding, V should have taken at least 3d6 + 15 damage, which, added to what V took previously, means that he's still alive only thanks to bear's endurance (or is dead anyway).

V's Con isn't terrible, and see above for why the damage wouldn't necessarily be instadeath.


6) Lady dragon could have teleported away at any moment. After trying finger of death would have been the more appropriate time.

Dragon had no reason to believe eating V wouldn't work. Also, teleporting away would mean that the dragon had failed in its objective of killing Little Ones.


7) I'm not sure shapeshift can do that.

It can.


So, if V was showed pretty hurt at the end of the fight, it would have been perfect. But apparently V took no damage at all, which I find hard to believe.

V probably wasn't shown hurt because of the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice mentioned earlier. She certainly took a crapload of damage, I agree.


I saw someone proposing that V got the half fiend template, that would grant hir spell resistance (nullify finger of death) extra hp (to sustain damage taken) and damage resistance (but it wouldn't have stacked with stoneskin) and acid resistance (V should still have taken some damage from the acid breath). It is possible and it would explain everything.

S'possible, though not necessary to explain everything.


It is also possible, since V didn't use them, that in fact he cannot cast epic spells for some reason.

Ridiculous. 623 rules that out.

However, Epic Spells frankly suck compared to normal spells except in the case of either a) cheese or b) epic +Spellcraft items. Neither of which V would have.

[Fireballing_Fun]

I expected the dragon to lose because the dragon was written poorly for a highly intelligent creature. It could have put up a decent fight with it's multiple attacks and magic, but really it decided that the right idea was to swallow the enemy. Not even an attempt to chew V up in her maw of sharp teeth or throw up some protective magic of her own, just... swallow.

The least she could have done was to breath acid on V's family and take them out with her, thus making V's victory a bit hollow. So my opinion is that I expected the dragon to lose, but she shouldn't have lost stupidly.

The Dragon did not loose stupidly, it was seriously rattled and panicked because it was totally outgunned. And as a rule being swallowed whole by a dragon would have killed 99% of wizards. It was a last ditch fatal attack. Not an act of stupidity.

Your option is arguably to deny the dragon's intelligence and relegate it to a creature or simple mindless revenge. It expected to survive this and acted to survive, it was not a sucide bomber.

[Kaytara]

As already mentioned, there was really no reason for the dragon NOT to swallow Vaarsuvius. Her stomach is filled with acid strong enough to dissolve rocks, after all. :smallamused: It's just too bad she didn't know V had cast Acid Immunity.

...which now makes me wonder if Rich had been planning for the ABD to be finished off in this exact manner back when he had chosen the TYPE of the starmetal dragon. O.o Probably not, though...

[Haven]

Or am I correct that V was toying with the ABD, deliberately foregoing opportunities to attack?

This is almost certainly correct. The Flame Shield trick was particularly taunt-y, I think.

[Silverraptor]

Did anyone wonder about the "It would have all been for nothing" line by the dragon? This makes me think that something is "up" with the dragon -- like it made some kind of "deal" as well.

I thought the dragon was referring to the fact the V was on fire. You try swallowing something on fire. The dragon was probably relieved that V went all the way down.

[Tryble]

Looks to me like the dragon DID win.

:smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

"Stupid Railroad Plot."

This seems to be another situation like the case of OOTS v Miko. When V gained epic power, there was little doubt that he would not kill the dragon. The drawback to the power wasn't the power's limitations, it is/was the cost at which he gained them.

So effectively, when V "Went down the rabbit hole," he not only gained near-unlimited arcane power, he also gained the strongest power of all(moreso than divine):

The power of PLOT!
I tought I already mentioned it, but I didn't. Yes, clearly V was intended to win. The advantage of writing compared to DMing is that you need not to worry about your players rolling a 1 in the decisive moment.


No. The dragon couldn't full attack for either of the first two rounds. First round was a surprise round, so only a partial action, and AMF was fairly prudent methinks. Second round V was still out of reach so close while aciding seems good to me.
It seemed to me that V was close enough, but you may be right.



20d4, not 32d4. And V did take damage, but did save.
Still, no damage was shown.


Not all of them may have hit, remember.
An ancient black dragon has about a +40 to hit. I find unlikely that she rolled more than a natural 1, so I assume at least 5 attacks did hit. And 30 damages is low even counting 5 hits and damage reduction


V's Con isn't terrible
In the class-level geekery is stated to be not greater than 12, and we have word of Rich on that. However, I admit that I failed to consider the boost from Bear's endurance. That would put V's saves to +15, assuming a natural con of 12 and no buffing items. So yes, saving was pretty likely.



Dragon had no reason to believe eating V wouldn't work. Also, teleporting away would mean that the dragon had failed in its objective of killing Little Ones.
Dragon already took a hell of damage and saw how powerful V was. Her attempt to harm V had little to moderate success until that point. She could have understood that V sold hir soul, and escape to come back later (after the soul splice ended). She could have sneaked and killed the children in any moment.
Anyway, I'm not saying try to eat V was a dumb move. The dragon already tried everything else, and it may have worked. But also escaping to come back later was a suitable option.


V [probably wasn't shown hurt because of the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice mentioned earlier. She ] certainly took a crapload of damage, I agree.
That was my whole point. V had the upper edge, but it was not easy fight, with a little luck the dragon could have subverted the result, and unless V is regenerating hp I don't think he can do another fight like that.
The idea that damage don't show because souls splice has a rejuvenating effect is another likely explanation for the absence of visible damage.


Yeah 3 epic magic users are going to stop and blink at a 6th level spell.
Never understimate the power of a well-used low level spell

[Texas_Ben]

Was this really the most efficient way to kill the ABD? Or am I correct that V was toying with the ABD, deliberately foregoing opportunities to attack?

His use of disintegrate earlier (which wouldn't kill the dragon) indicates that you are correct and he was toying with it.

[Nerdanel]

I think on those rounds he didn't act V was readying an action to counterspell any attempt to cast Antimagic Field, an event that never came.

It's possible that the dragon didn't try to cast a second Antimagic Field because she knew V would be prepared for it and she didn't have that many high-level spell slots left anyway so she didn't want to waste any.

[Xesirin]

Anyway, I'm not saying try to eat V was a dumb move. The dragon already tried everything else, and it may have worked. But also escaping to come back later was a suitable option.

Escaping would have been bad for the dragon. ABD's whole advantage was surprise. If ABD were to escape, it is reasonably assumed that V could have arranged protection for his family before ending the soulsplice, or at the least, before ABD was healed enough to return. Or, you know, just stuck around for the whole thing. :smallbiggrin:

And with epic power comes epic scrying potential, meaning V would have had much less trouble finding ABD later, especially given that ABD didn't have a cloister in effect.

[evileeyore]

The dragon should have won.

The dragon did win, the Pink dragon.

Didn't you pay any attention?

[Gez]

Epic spells, as far as dealing damage go, are not worth the trouble. "Yeah I can go beyond the damage die cap and deal 30d6 damage! But it costs me 15000 XP to cast it and I suffer 10d6 of damage myself. Or I could metamagic on normal spells and deal as much damage without the XP cost and backlash. Hmm, decisions, decisions..."

[David Argall]

V can't gain any XP from this encounter. That means V is at least 8 levels higher than the dragon. Very much minimum. 4 levels difference and the lower level is advised to run away. We can talk about the mechanics if we want, but V is supposed to dice the dragon in about a round. See Xykon and Roy at Azure City to see what 8 levels means. So the dragon could have used better tactics and lasted a few rounds? That just means V was loafing around too.

[Logalmier]

V could still have cast Disjunction even in an antimagic field. And since V's effective caster level is like 104 something it would have a 100% chance of working.

And epic spells aren't affected by antimagic. That to.

[Mr. Pin]

One reason that the dragon didn't chew V on the way down is probably the fire shield's damage. I do agree that the lack of damage to V from the acid breath is unrealistic, and without resorting to a "house rule" argument I can only postulate that perhaps Jephton picked up a couple of levels in Rogue for the evasion? It seems far-fetched, but I can't come up with anything better. She definitely did not take any damage; you see her evading the blast completely. She didn't seem to take any damage from the Pointer of Pointlessness either; of course she made the save, but what about the other 3d6+15? Maybe she's just badass enough to take that, survive, and still mock the ABD.

[Silverraptor]

The dragon did win, the Pink dragon.

Didn't you pay any attention?

Ah ha. Good point, forgot about that.

[Mr. Pin]

Epic spells, as far as dealing damage go, are not worth the trouble. "Yeah I can go beyond the damage die cap and deal 30d6 damage! But it costs me 15000 XP to cast it and I suffer 10d6 of damage myself. Or I could metamagic on normal spells and deal as much damage without the XP cost and backlash. Hmm, decisions, decisions..."

See Vengeful Gaze of God. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm) your arguments about XP and self damage apply, but it does three hundred and five friggin' d6 damage. I DARE you to find another spell that can do that.

[Sutremaine]

See Vengeful Gaze of God. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm) your arguments about XP and self damage apply, but it does three hundred and five friggin' d6 damage. I DARE you to find another spell that can do that.
That is a very ridiculuous spell. 419 DC and 200d6 backlash? How would you survive that? And what level would you need to be at (with or without cheese) to be able to make that check?

[Flickerdart]

That is a very ridiculuous spell. 419 DC and 200d6 backlash? How would you survive that? And what level would you need to be at (with or without cheese) to be able to make that check?
You don't. You mitigate the spell to 0 DC using Gate-cheese to use Solar spell slots. Doable at level 21.

[Assassin89]

We can complaint all we want, but the plot has more relevance than some rules of the game. The black dragon deserved to die due to attempted disproportionate retribution.

[Kittenwolf]

That is a very ridiculuous spell. 419 DC and 200d6 backlash? How would you survive that? And what level would you need to be at (with or without cheese) to be able to make that check?

Making the DC:
By the custom magic item creation rules, item bonuses are possible up to +30 to a skill (from memory).
Therefore:
Competance
Enhancement
Profane/Divine
Luck
Unnamed
Thats +150 to your spellcraft. Still a long way to go, but thats quite legit. Use that bonus to make yourself an Epic Spell that gives +400 to Spellcraft.

Lets go with something more cheesy.

Using the Sadism & Masochism spells (BoVD), a few delay death spells, and a lifelink (you take half damage done to other person, I cannot remember the exact name of the spell) to five other people, you can setup a feedback loop:
You take damage -> All the others take half that
You take half of the damage that each of them took, which is more damage than you initially took. -> All others take half of that
Due to the nature of the loop, this repeats until you dispel the spells, or die (hence the Delay Death spell)
Sadism & Masochism spells mean that you get a +1 stacking bonus on your skill checks equal to the amount of damage you have taken+the amount of damage you dealt.
Easily enough to beat the DC :)

Surviving the Spell
1) Friendly cleric casts Delay Death on you (wow.. that was easy, lets go more fun!)
2) The protected destiny feat chain (Races of Destiny) means that "Once per day you may avoid a situation that would kill you" (aka, that spell's backlash)
3) Use Magic Device-> Scroll of Death Pact "I predict that me casting Vengeful Gaze of God will have a significant role to play in my death" -> Free rez

Really, if you know you're going to take the damage, there are dozens upon dozens of ways to avoid, negate and bypass the damage.

[The Glyphstone]

You don't. You mitigate the spell to 0 DC using Gate-cheese to use Solar spell slots. Doable at level 21.

But if you're using Gate-Cheese, stopping at a direct damage spell is wasting so much potential - hence why you use your metamagiced non-epic spells for the blasting, and your Epic spells for reshaping the very fabric of the space-time continum like a balloon animal so that it might dance for your amusement.


Surviving the Spell

2) The protected destiny feat chain (Races of Destiny) means that "Once per day you may avoid a situation that would kill you" (aka, that spell's backlash)
3) Use Magic Device-> Scroll of Death Pact "I predict that me casting Vengeful Gaze of God will have a significant role to play in my death" -> Free rez

Really, if you know you're going to take the damage, there are dozens upon dozens of ways to avoid, negate and bypass the damage.

This, unfortunately, doesn't work because of Backlash's 'No Escape Clause':


The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage. For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round. If backlash damage kills a caster, no spell or method exists that will return life to the caster’s body without costing the caster a level—not even wish, true resurrection, miracle, or epic spells that return life to the deceased. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one level when they return him or her to life penalize a caster killed by backlash two levels.


Delay Death will technically work though, I believe - the clause prevents you from avoiding or negating the damage, but with DD you still take the damage and just don't die. You better have some healing magic on hand afterwards though. Death Pact will rez you, but it'll cost you 2 levels instead of 1.

[suppoko]

Ok barring the fact that V was sopposed to win, I need to ask a few questions here.

WHY should V have been able to cast inside the AMF exactly? Unless your giving V diefic power now.

And how the hell did the dragon get that AMF to cover her entire body? :)

Oh and for the purposes of defining "epic spells" all 10th level spells are epic so a MM feat tacked on a 9th lvl spell is epic.

[Flickerdart]

But if you're using Gate-Cheese, stopping at a direct damage spell is wasting so much potential - hence why you use your metamagiced non-epic spells for the blasting, and your Epic spells for reshaping the very fabric of the space-time continum like a balloon animal so that it might dance for your amusement.
You don't gate-cheese for spells you do more than once, since you need all those Solar spell slots every time. Surgically removing everyone capable of opposing you is a good start.

[Porthos]

Ok barring the fact that V was sopposed to win, I need to ask a few questions here.

WHY should V have been able to cast inside the AMF exactly? Unless your giving V diefic power now.

He wouldn't.

As a move action, V moves outside of the AMF. Next V casts Disjunction again, followed by some sort of Quickened Spell.

Result: No more AMF.

Alternatively, V just says "screw it" and casts an Epic spell (either inside or outside of the field. At this point it won't matter). Epic spells (especially at V's presumed Caster Level) will blow through an AMF like it was a piece of paper. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)


And how the hell did the dragon get that AMF to cover her entire body? :)

Note the wings and tail were outside of the field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html). :smallwink:

[suppoko]

He wouldn't.

As a move action, V moves outside of the AMF. Next V casts Disjunction again, followed by some sort of Quickened Spell.

Result: No more AMF.

Alternatively, V just says "screw it" and casts an Epic spell. Epic spells (especially at V's presumed Caster Level) will blow through an AMF like it was a piece of paper. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)



Note the wings and tail were outside of the field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html). :smallwink:


Yeah I can totally see V backing up I was mostly referring to this bit o' wisdom. Oh and its a 10' area centered on teh caster :)


V could still have cast Disjunction even in an antimagic field. And since V's effective caster level is like 104 something it would have a 100% chance of working.

And epic spells aren't affected by antimagic. That to.

Also we are kinda assuming caster levels stack here which odds are they don't. Since stacking from the same source (soul splice) is not allowed BUT since it's made up anyhow who knows. I am liking V's phenominal cosmic powers! I am jsut waiting to soo the itty bitty living space come on in to play.

[magic9mushroom]

Still, no damage was shown.

The "Nnnh!" implies that it hit her. As to the lack of wounds, you seem to have already admitted that that doesn't necessarily mean no damage.


An ancient black dragon has about a +40 to hit. I find unlikely that she rolled more than a natural 1, so I assume at least 5 attacks did hit. And 30 damages is low even counting 5 hits and damage reduction

Yeah, I noticed that too.

However, it's unknown whether V has any +AC items or not. You'd think it rather likely.


Dragon already took a hell of damage and saw how powerful V was. Her attempt to harm V had little to moderate success until that point. She could have understood that V sold hir soul, and escape to come back later (after the soul splice ended). She could have sneaked and killed the children in any moment.
Anyway, I'm not saying try to eat V was a dumb move. The dragon already tried everything else, and it may have worked. But also escaping to come back later was a suitable option.

Think from the dragon's perspective rather than the reader's for a few seconds, and you'll see the problem with this.

Firstly, the dragon has no idea what's going on with V. A Soul Splice is not just an unknown to her, it's an unknown unknown. So it doesn't know that V's power is temporary. All it knows is that V has learnt Disjunction through some unknown means.

Secondly, if the dragon ran, its vengeance would be thwarted, as V isn't stupid enough to leave her family unprotected after an event like that.


That was my whole point. V had the upper edge, but it was not easy fight, with a little luck the dragon could have subverted the result, and unless V is regenerating hp I don't think he can do another fight like that.
The idea that damage don't show because souls splice has a rejuvenating effect is another likely explanation for the absence of visible damage.

Shapechange means that V IS regenerating HP.

A possible reason for the lack of wounds is that V somehow has Regeneration, which would make it all subdual damage. This would also explain V's hubris.

[zero]

He wouldn't.

As a move action, V moves outside of the AMF. Next V casts Disjunction again, followed by some sort of Quickened Spell.

Result: No more AMF.

Actually, since they both would be flying, I'd say it is a fair ruling to have V leaving (by falling) immediately the AMF.

About the dragon mommy... people saying she should have won fail to realize how powerful arcane epic (or even "mere" 20th level) casters really are. Heck, if the "orb" spells are allowed in the OOTS setting, V didn't even had to use disjunction. Just keep outside her reach throwing a few maximized orbs (a mere 7h level slot). Taking 90hp per round, she wouldn't last five rounds (making a rather boring fight, admittedly).

Of course, swallowing whole a flaming, acid-resistant, dmg-reducing, con-boosted epic level sorcerer who most likely has the still spell feat does not strike me as a particularly bright move...

[Kittenwolf]

This, unfortunately, doesn't work because of Backlash's 'No Escape Clause':


Delay Death will technically work though, I believe - the clause prevents you from avoiding or negating the damage, but with DD you still take the damage and just don't die. You better have some healing magic on hand afterwards though. Death Pact will rez you, but it'll cost you 2 levels instead of 1.

Aha, tis true, you have out-rulesed me, bravo :)

Though I think Death Pact would cost one, rather than two, since from memory it's a True Rez, not a standard Rez. Dont have my book with me though.

Guess we'll just have to use gate or feedback cheese to make a DD spell with no backlash :D
I seem to remember someone on the DnD boards posting the details on making an epic spell that did 1000d6 positive energy damage to everything on the planet, and caused 100d6 negative levels to them all as well...

[suppoko]

Aha, tis true, you have out-rulesed me, bravo :)

Though I think Death Pact would cost one, rather than two, since from memory it's a True Rez, not a standard Rez. Dont have my book with me though.

Guess we'll just have to use gate or feedback cheese to make a DD spell with no backlash :D
I seem to remember someone on the DnD boards posting the details on making an epic spell that did 1000d6 positive energy damage to everything on the planet, and caused 100d6 negative levels to them all as well...
the char op boards are an evil place that the meek dare not go for fear of a brain meltdown upon entering :)

[DigoDragon]

The Dragon did not loose stupidly, it was seriously rattled and panicked because it was totally outgunned. And as a rule being swallowed whole by a dragon would have killed 99% of wizards. It was a last ditch fatal attack. Not an act of stupidity.

I'll bring up two points-- First, the dragon left V on the island knowing V wouldn't be able to follow. Not long after that V shows up in new clothes and some powerful spells. The dragon should have had a big hint that either V suddenly got help in the form of a recharge of spells to cast or this is some other powerful wizard in V's place. Treating it as the harmless version of V from the island was a bad move in my opinion.

Secondly, Swallowing wizards may be fatal, but it's not instantly so. You'd slowly be digested, and possibly suffocate first, but a high level wizard would likely still get a couple rounds to cast a spell. That one or two spells can be fatal to the dragon. To me, that makes the idea of swallowing a dumb idea.

My opinion is that it would be smart of the dragon to use the family as a shield to get V to back off, or simply do a snatch and run to by some time for a regroup and a plan B.

[Trixie]

Yes, clearly V was intended to win. The advantage of writing compared to DMing is that you need not to worry about your players rolling a 1 in the decisive moment.

Still, no damage was shown.

That was my whole point. V had the upper edge, but it was not easy fight, with a little luck the dragon could have subverted the result, and unless V is regenerating hp I don't think he can do another fight like that.

Never understimate the power of a well-used low level spell

Remaining words are QFT.

Yes, I also think that, with a bit more effort, the Dragon could have won this.

[Silverraptor]

Ok. Who still thinks the dragon should have won after that kind of spell?

[Porthos]

Yes, I also think that, with a bit more effort, the Dragon could have won this.

After what we just saw? I highly doubt it. We have no idea what sort of Epic Spells V has access to. Nevermind Counterspells or Quickened Actions. The ABD needs some sort of insta-death spell and hope that it breaks through all of V's protections.

No, the ABD was screwed the second V ported in, and I don't think (short of Pun-Pun level of cheese) there was anything she could have done about it.


Ok. Who still thinks the dragon should have won after that kind of spell?

Yeah, I think this shows that that V was definitely toying with the ABD all along...

[Fireballing_Fun]

I'll bring up two points-- First, the dragon left V on the island knowing V wouldn't be able to follow. Not long after that V shows up in new clothes and some powerful spells. The dragon should have had a big hint that either V suddenly got help in the form of a recharge of spells to cast or this is some other powerful wizard in V's place. Treating it as the harmless version of V from the island was a bad move in my opinion.


Obviously it was a mistake, however smart does not equal omniscient or infallible. And if a Dragon does not act arrogantly, or overconfidently in the face of a previously vanquished wizard its not being very Dragonic now is it? I just think writing the Dragon of as stupid to be a misrepresentation.



Secondly, Swallowing wizards may be fatal, but it's not instantly so. You'd slowly be digested, and possibly suffocate first, but a high level wizard would likely still get a couple rounds to cast a spell. That one or two spells can be fatal to the dragon. To me, that makes the idea of swallowing a dumb idea.

Again the Dragon was loosing, so it was a last ditch assault, also what is the penalty to spell casting for full immersion in a bath of acid?



My opinion is that it would be smart of the dragon to use the family as a shield to get V to back off, or simply do a snatch and run to by some time for a regroup and a plan B.

Both tactics would have ended in a victory for V.

[innk]

A question, wouldn´t any save or you´re fcked spell be enough?

Like, V casts disjunction and a quickened finger of death instead a disintegrate. Isnt the DC based on the caster level? Which was, i dont know, 100+?

[magic9mushroom]

A question, wouldn´t any save or you´re fcked spell be enough?

Like, V casts disjunction and a quickened finger of death instead a disintegrate. Isnt the DC based on the caster level? Which was, i dont know, 100+?

No. It's based on Primary Attribute Modifier.

Yes, there were easier ways for V to do it. No, V didn't use those ways because she was showing off.

[Voyager_I]

Remaining words are QFT.

Yes, I also think that, with a bit more effort, the Dragon could have won this.

...unless V tried rather than playing with it.

[GoC]

A lot of people are simply saying "She's an epic wizard!", that's not how the rules (or arguments) work. The only thing she can cast in an antimagic field are epic (not 10+ level) spells. The only one she's used so far was Kill Family.


Um, no.

V would have moved out of the dragon's square (move action) and used Disjunction (standard action). Plus a quickened spell to hurt it some more.
AoO and grapple.


Besides which, the dragon would have been getting low on 6th level spell slots by this point.
He's still got about 5 6-7 level slots.


Actually, since they both would be flying, I'd say it is a fair ruling to have V leaving (by falling) immediately the AMF.
Which is why the dragon moves in a parabolic arc on it's turn.:smallsmile:


About the dragon mommy... people saying she should have won fail to realize how powerful arcane epic (or even "mere" 20th level) casters really are.
Hey! I read Tippy's "Guide to Becoming Overdeity in a Day" too.:smallannoyed:


Just keep outside her reach
Dragons are really fast.:smallamused:

[Golden-Esque]

She could have just cast anti-magic field (standard action) and moved into V's square (move action) like she did last time.

Without magic V would obviously have lost.

I think she already used her Move Action when V got there. She was running around looking for V's kids. When V showed up, she only had time to bring up the shield before V used Disjunction on it.

[Cúchulainn]

I'm willing to bet on V having more 9th level slots than the dragon had in total, and spamming Disjunction and Quickened Disintegrate strikes me as especially ironic.

Regardless of that the dragon would have devoured V and gotten killed in the exact same way, I don't think antimagic field stops magic from inside the body of the caster. But I don't know my magic, I'm just a simple fighter/cleric.

[Green Bean]

Huh, I had figured the reason V didn't take much damage was because the Soul Splice gave him/her the donors' class levels, not just their spells. Even Wizard HP looks pretty good at level 80+.

[ericgrau]

He means that the dragon has both a move action and standard action when his turn begins. Thus move action move to V, standard action activate AMF. V is already in it and cannot even cast the disjunction spell. Or the disjunction could likely fail and the dragon would reach V in the next round, as suggested, leaving V in the same predicament.

However, Vaarsuvius also has epic spells which could continue to function even in an AMF. Perhaps Vaarsuvius should have won a different way, but oh well.

As for why V didn't take much damage, all the protective spells shown in the comic were enough to reduce it to very little.

[Nerdanel]

I think V fought the battle the way he did in order to prove himself that he didn't really need the soul-splice to defeat the dragon, just a few more levels so that he could cast ninth level spells. Note that everything V cast between teleporting in and defeating the dragon was something he could have done himself some levels later. In addition, with the exception of the quickened disintegrate that he did to prove a point, everything he did would have been possible for him pre-epic too. He just would have needed to start rested and prepared and in the right place.

Thus toying with the dragon served to prove V the worth of his own character build and thus himself without the soul-splice. That way V can bear to dismiss the splice without being undone by the loss of power and competence.

[Kaytara]

I think V fought the battle the way he did in order to prove himself that he didn't really need the soul-splice to defeat the dragon, just a few more levels so that he could cast ninth level spells. Note that everything V cast between teleporting in and defeating the dragon was something he could have done himself some levels later. In addition, with the exception of the quickened disintegrate that he did to prove a point, everything he did would have been possible for him pre-epic too. He just would have needed to start rested and prepared and in the right place.

Thus toying with the dragon served to prove V the worth of his own character build and thus himself without the soul-splice. That way V can bear to dismiss the splice without being undone by the loss of power and competence.

Great interpretation. I think you've hit the nail on the head. For Vaarsuvius, doing it himself is a rather big thing. For example, part of his rebuttal to Qarr is "I will conquer this minor obstacle with my own diligence or not at all!" Proving that he COULD accomplish all of this on his own with just a few more levels, without the aid of fiends or Epic-level souls, is what matters to him.

[Sturmjaeger]

V is not stupid. V lost the first time because the dragon deprived her of her magic. This was round two, and V was ready for that tactic. The elf learned from past mistakes, while the dragon was dumb enough to try the same trick twice. That is why the dragon lost.

[The Minx]

V is not stupid. V lost the first time because the dragon deprived her of her magic. This was round two, and V was ready for that tactic. The elf learned from past mistakes, while the dragon was dumb enough to try the same trick twice. That is why the dragon lost.

To be fair to the dragon, she had no reason to think he had suddenly gotten a whole bunch of 9th level spell slots (let alone 10th and higher level slots) just like that. She might have thought "a teleport? Maybe a scroll with UMD or something".

[Dagren]

Great interpretation. I think you've hit the nail on the head. For Vaarsuvius, doing it himself is a rather big thing. For example, part of his rebuttal to Qarr is "I will conquer this minor obstacle with my own diligence or not at all!" Proving that he COULD accomplish all of this on his own with just a few more levels, without the aid of fiends or Epic-level souls, is what matters to him.
Don't forget the IFCC's alternative plan, to get a message to V's master. That would probably have worked, although I admit that there are certainly other reasons not to kill oneself than to prove a point.

About the battle, I can't help but wonder what would have happened had the dragon cast another antimagic field after eating V. That would certainly have stopped the shapechange, and maybe any Epic spells V might have tried. Note that the the "Epic vs. Antimagic" section doesn't specify whether the possibility of overcoming it is for spells cast from within, or just from outside, which can be done with non-epic magic.

[factotum]

About the battle, I can't help but wonder what would have happened had the dragon cast another antimagic field after eating V. That would certainly have stopped the shapechange, and maybe any Epic spells V might have tried.

Maybe, but why would the dragon have done so? She presumably had no reason to believe that a squishy caster type could survive being swallowed by her.

[Poil]

Huh, I had figured the reason V didn't take much damage was because the Soul Splice gave him/her the donors' class levels, not just their spells. Even Wizard HP looks pretty good at level 80+.

That's what I thought too. 80x(1d4+con)=320-560 means a few scratches by a dragon won't do much. :smalltongue:

Since V's saving throws probably went up as well so surviving a finger of death wouldn't have been much of a problem.

[derfenrirwolv]

Round 0?

V ports in. Either this IS his surprise round, or the dragon isn't surprised.


Round 1

The dragon wins initiative and casts anti magic field. She does miss the opportunity to move into his square. V would loose his flight and fall, drawing an AoO the dragon could use to crush/grapple him. However, she may not have wanted to grapple with the obviously different V just yet.

V casts disjunction and quickened disintegrate

Round 2

Dragon breathes acid and then moves next to V. V saves but still takes (2.5 X 11 or about 28 damage)

V timestops, casts buffs and Delayed blast fireball


Round 3

Dragon makes a full attack and hits all 6 times (no need to speculate on the 22.5% chance the dragon rolled a 1 on one of the attacks. All six attacking limbs are shown on fire.)

This does about 111 points of damage to the dragon. She can't keep attacking like that more than 3-4 times or she'll die.


V gloats


Round 4

Dragon Casts finger of death

V gloats.


Round 5

Dragon swallows V. For most wizards this would mean they would have to teleport out.

V casts stilled shapechange (a swallowed creature is considered grappled. You can't cast a spell with a somatic component like shapechange while in a grapple)


So V has plenty of unused actions he could have gotten serious with. He was goading the dragon. V wanted to defeat the dragon. He didn't want one of the souls riding along with him to do it.

[Sebastian]

The least she could have done was to breath acid on V's family and take them out with her, thus making V's victory a bit hollow. So my opinion is that I expected the dragon to lose, but she shouldn't have lost stupidly.

Well,Thanks to V she still have a chance to do that. :smallbiggrin:

[J.Gellert]

There is no kill like overkill. :smallwink: