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Darth Stabber
2009-03-19, 12:00 PM
So I'm thinking about a gestalt Cleric//???, with a focus on melee, but, as you have probably already surmised, I don't what I want out of the other half. Given that the other side will probably be a combat focused class I was thinking about going cloistered cleric for that half. By default I naturally considered paladin for the other half, but I don't know if I can add my turn attempts from 2 sources (If I could Holy Crap who needs a Nightstick). But other than turn attempts and Divine grace there isn't much I want from the class (rendered redundant by Cleric casting). Current thoughts for continuing the build (post paladin) include:

Cloistered cleric x//Paladin 4/????(x-4).

Fighter - prolly only a 2 lvl dip.
Monk - Wisdom synergy, reflex save, No armor.
Favored soul - Wisdom and Charisma synergy, reflex save.
Soulborn - Charisma Synergy, different set buffs that don't take standard actions, full bab.
Psywar - Wisdom Synergy, good self buffs, bad action economy.
Bard - Charisma synergy, Ultimate buffbot build.
Binder - Charisma Synergy.


Where should I go next (no ToB)

Draken
2009-03-19, 12:48 PM
Smite soulborn from your list and pray that they deities of incarnum never think you ever considered using it. Incarnate is a better option in every possible way.

Totemist would also be cool, even better if you take the animal domain.

Binder would be fun, I bet. As long as the scenario isn't one with the usual clerics vs binders situation. In which case it becomes a scenario that matches a paladin with Apostate or a monk/barbarian scenario (mutual exclusiveness, yea, I know the variants, don't list 'em for it's own sake).

I might be incarnum biased (matter of fact, I am incarnum biased). I suggest the Incarnate. It can boost your melee greatly (Lawful will let you power attack for more,evil will boost your damage, good will help you survive longer, chaotic... Eh. I dunno. Will let you run faster? alternativelly, chaotic will make you a better archer-cleric, but just a little).

If you go with incarnate. I wouldn't recomend cloistered. If you go totemist, Then I would. If you can make the concept of primal bestial warrior and bookworm cleric work together.

Zaq
2009-03-19, 05:49 PM
Building on Draken's comment, Cleric and Incarnate definitely work well together, especially with the Azurin Cleric substitution level. Even better, combine it with the feat that does essentially the same thing and you can essentially double-dip on it (the feat is even better because it increases your essentia capacity by one, which is huge). You'll have to invest a lot in Charisma and/or Extra Turning, but I think it'd be worth it. A lot of the Cleric spells listed in MoI are also very handy for an Incarnum-user. I second the Cleric//Incarnate idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-19, 08:45 PM
Cloistered Cleric//Crusader. Head for RKV.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-20, 07:16 AM
Incarnate and Paladin are incompatible (including all of the variants in UA), Totemist is hard to reconcile flavor wise, Psywar pulls focus from the Gods, Soulborn does blow, Fighter is just fighter, Monk is even worse because it's monk thought the flavor has an interesting fit. Binder and Cleric are antagonistic flavorwise, Bard is an amusing idea both flavorfully and mechanically (Evangelist/uberbuffbot), but i think i can do better.

For maximum Flavor/Mechanics bliss, the winner is:

Favored Soul.
Mechanically it makes my most used spells more spammable, and gives me some interesting side benefits. Flavorwise it makes me one of the most Divinely inspired individual in all of Greyhawk. So for more fun with the whole idea of being an emissary of the gods I'll throw in the saint template and The Radiant Servant of Pelor PRC. Now by lvl 20 I am the most devoted and favored worshiper of the sun god on the material plane.

Current build thought


LG Human Cloistered Cleric10/Radiant Servant of Pelor10//Paladin4/Favored soul14/Saint Template2. {class lvls not in order, but saint template will run opposite RSoP to ensure I keep 3/4 bab and a hit die better than d4}

Domains:(Knowledge, Sun, Fire, Healing)

Final naked stats
Str 14 Dex10 Con14 Int12 Wis22 Cha22
BAB 16/11/6/1

Cloistered cleric gives me all the goodness of cleric but with better skills, and free knowledge domain, and the draw backs of the variant are entirely covered up by the other classes, so all upside.

Paladin gives extra turn attempts (that won't be used for turning I can tell you that), Immunity to disease, Immunity to fear and Charisma bonus to saves. Now I still get lay on hands, but only 24 points, so not really useful given the ridiculous number of empowered and maximized healing spells I get, and I get 2 first level paladin spells (So redundant, and only a caster level of 2)

Favored Soul gives me my most used lower level spells in greater quantity and with spont casting, thus freeing up Cleric slots for a wider variety of spells. I don't remember the other class abilities, but I know that i get special bonuses when wielding my deity's favored weapon (Morningstar in Pelor's case), and wings at one point, can anyone tell me exactly what they get as far as class features, because if they get turn undead I will never raise a spells level to metamagic it again

Thanks to Saint template I get all my spells +4 to save DCs {which is good given that i lose 6 lvls of FS casting}, Immune to practially every thing, Wis to ac, Fast Healing, Outsider(native) type, DR, Permanent tongues, SLAs, and Fire Resist. Better than a prestige class, and given the overall theme of the character so far, i think that it is a perfectly reasonable fit.

Radiant Servant of Pelor gives even more turning, the healing domain, full casting and Turning progression, A whole set of sun domain turn attempts Free automatic metamagic on healing spells, and probably some other crap I don't remember.

Turning

So my grand total of turn attempts: 28 (or 19 if fire domain doesn't count) possibly as high as 37 if FS give turn attempts (but I don't think it does)), so I don't even need Nightsticks to get great bunches of reduced metamagic cheese.

Known sources
9 From cloisted cleric (normal)
9 From Fire domain (Rebuke fire creatures, turn water creatures, might not work with DMM since it doesn't turn undead, unless the undead had the Water subtype)
1 From Sun domain (Destroys)
9 from Radiant servant of Pelor (Destroys)
and 9 from paladin (useless except to feed DMM, because those turn as a 1st lvl cleric)

Does any one have the information about Turn non-undead and it's interaction (or lack thereof) with DMM.




Not sure about the feats, I know i want DMM Persist, but beyond that i don't know. Thoughts, or Ideas anyone?

Tingel
2009-03-20, 07:51 AM
Cloistered Cleric//Crusader. Head for RKV.
Not relevant.

Where should I go next (no ToB)

Darth Stabber
2009-03-20, 12:20 PM
What should I take for Feats, I already am going to have extend spell, Persist spell and DMM persist so I can stay magically buff all day long, plus another to qualify for RSoP. So that leaves 4 feats up for grabs, what set feats does an upstanding servant of Pelor need to get better at what he's already doing, namely owning undead in the face and delivering a melee beatdown that fighters only dream of, all while being the box of bandaids for the group?

Also Additional Questions:

Do you get multiple sets of Turn Undead from classes that give them?
Can the turn attempts from the fire domain be used to fuel DMM?
Other than spell casting and some favored weapon related thing, what class abilities does and FS get, most pertinently what do they get by lvl 14?
What are the Requirement for RSoP (I own the Comp Divine, but haven't found it yet)?
Do I have the prerequisites correct on DMM Persist (Extend Spell, Persist spell)?
And is the Saint template too broken to justify, even if I plan on meeting the crap out of the roleplaying requirements (Cleric, Paladin, Favored Soul, and Radiant servant of, all kind of pushing me to act like I'm exalted anyway, might as well reap one of the few benefits of that code of conduct)?
Do I have enough god given backup to justify Vow of Poverty, or is it still a trap?
Do I want Combat feats or should I just get item creation and Metamagic feats?

Heliomance
2009-03-20, 12:30 PM
Duskblade works quite well with Cleric. Introduces a certain amount of MAD, but you don't need that much INT for a Duskblade. Also, it lets you channel any touch spell you know, not just ones off the Duskblade spell list. Channeled Harm is fun.

Don't do Favoured Soul. It adds very little to a Cleric build, just like you wouldn't go Wizard//Sorceror. So you have more spells, wow. It doesn't increase your versatility that much, and you still only have so many actions.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-20, 01:51 PM
I'm After the Favored Soul to make frequently used spells spammable, opening up cleric slots to have specific answers. I really hate using a ton of slots to ensure that every one who needs it has Aligned weapon, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment, and those are just my 2nd 3rd and 4th lvl slots, I am the buffbot, and I still have to have spells left over to top off the parties hp. Even with DMM persist that is still at a minimum 6 spell slots that are basically gone first thing in the morning. Add to that the self only buffs that I am going to persist, when all is said and done I would be hard pressed to contribute both healing and relevant spells to problem solving spells once the adventuring begins. Trust me when I say that in the group I play with, the cleric will need all of the Cures and such he can get. the party is good at hitting things, just not so good at staying alive. There have been days when I have just prepped Resurections in advanced knowing that atleast 2 people are going to die, and ended up needing 3 as I was the only one that survived. Honestly my party has taken over diamond mines between adventure just to keep up with our own demands. And now with me being more competent in melee, i'm probably going to need quickened Cures to keep myself up, while holding the monster of the week's attention. Can I burn prepared spells for metamagic's Cures?

Besides the only attribute I am not dependent on are Dex and Int, why must I now Be dependent on that too. I may not need that much but I atleast need a 15, which with my current 12 causes me to loose out on 3 stat points elsewhere. While I do like the mechanics of those mashed together, I just can't justify it, I already love the flavor and Mechanics of the Current build, Come on the guy could not be more of an uber-priest. He serves his deity in every capacity possible.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-20, 10:52 PM
As a RSoP, use this trick for maximum effect:

1. Use Spontaneous Domain Casting (PHB2)
2. Choose Healing as your domain.

Trust me, it seems stupid, but when you consider that all of your Heal spells are empowered, not to mention that you can cast them spontaneously, you'll thank me :smallwink:

monty
2009-03-20, 11:02 PM
consider that all of your Heal spells are empowered

So all variable, numeric effects are increased by 50%. And 50% of 0 is...

AdamSmasher
2009-03-20, 11:23 PM
No. Screw all that.

Take atleast 13 levels of duskblade. Great role synergy what with both being melee/casters, full BaB, and arcane spells.

But the REAL beauty of it? You can channel cleric spells just the same as you could arcane spells. Channel 4+ Harms into an opponent in a full attack, 4+ Fingers of Death. In a jam? Healing spells are no longer useless! 'Attack' yourself and you can top yourself off with just a few swings.

I'd suggest dipping into psionic warrior and fighter for bonus feats so you can supercharge yourself further: Dual Weilding.

The only problem would be MAD. You need Wisdom primarily, constitution as a second. Intelligence only needs to be about 14 WITH buffs, so it's easy to get. Charisma is a dump stat. You'll be using either strength or dexterity for offense, I'de recommend dexterity for dual weilding and a little armor. The other is a dump stat.

Zagaroth
2009-03-21, 01:27 AM
Do you get multiple sets of Turn Undead from classes that give them?
When gestalting, no, take the better progression

Can the turn attempts from the fire domain be used to fuel DMM?
I believe the answer is No, sounds like a familiar sage question. Might wnat to look that up.

I don't think i have advice for yoru other questions at this time.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-21, 04:19 AM
Psywar - Wisdom Synergy, good self buffs, bad action economy.
what do you mean bad action economy: all you need is Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) + Linked Power (Complete Psionics) and Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation), you cast any Psywar Power Linked to Hustle (you need to expend your psionic focus), and spend the move action gained through Hustle to regain psionic focus, rince and repeat as many times as you need to buff in combat.

Eldariel
2009-03-21, 10:23 AM
what do you mean bad action economy: all you need is Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) + Linked Power (Complete Psionics) and Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation), you cast any Psywar Power Linked to Hustle (you need to expend your psionic focus), and spend the move action gained through Hustle to regain psionic focus, rince and repeat as many times as you need to buff in combat.

That effectively just amounts to "Quicken Power" for 3 PP. Doesn't increase the grand total actions you have any. Now, Schism & Temporal Acceleration though are different matters.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-21, 03:21 PM
That effectively just amounts to "Quicken Power" for 3 PP. Doesn't increase the grand total actions you have any. Now, Schism & Temporal Acceleration though are different matters. There's that. But what I meant was that even though you're DMM Persisting every other buff on the Cleric list, you don't have to spend actions to buff in combat that would ordinarily be spent on bashing face, which seemed to me as being what the "bad action economy" bit was about.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-23, 03:02 PM
Human - Cleric10/RSoP10//Paladin3/Duskblade15/Fighter2
vs.
Human saint - Cloistered Cleric10/RSoP10//Paladin3/Favored soul15/LA2
vs.

Better Thought
Half Giant-LA 1/Ranger1/Psychic warrior9/Slayer9//Cleric10/RSoP10
Advantages - Big, Event more big when combined with expansion, and righteous Might (do those stack, Because just those 2 together are Gargantuan when ever it's beneficial, or even Augment it to make him count as colossal? Big Angry Cleric GO!!!!!!!). Instead of going with Two weapon fighting, instead, getting a Greatsword and using power attack.

So spells/powers for ultimate Domination. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Grip of Iron, Vampiric Blade, Hustle and Expansion.

Chronos
2009-03-23, 06:05 PM
The key to remember in gestalt is that you get more abilities, but not more actions to use them in. So you generally want to take one side with a class that uses actions, and the other side in some class that either doesn't use actions, or better yet gives you more actions.

Any sort of spellcaster easily fits the bill for the active side of a gestalt. So you want something passive for the other side. So what makes a good second side can be very different from what makes a good single class. Monk, for instance, is actually pretty good in gestalt, since the very thing that makes it suck normally is that almost all of the abilities are passive. It's better for druids than for clerics, though, since clerics generally prefer to wear armor.

Personally, I would recommend an incarnum class (either Totemist or Incarnate), or possibly Binder. The incarnum classes are largely passive, and have some abilities that can complement spellcasting well, while Binder can give all sorts of abilities, some of them passive.