What schools should I ban 3.5

[Stormageddon]

I'm going to be playing a wizard that specializes in illusion. My question is what schools should I ban? I was thinking necromancy, but the DM likes a lot of undead. So, I don't know.

[Arcane_Snowman]

The most common schools to ban are: Evocation and Enchantment. Evocation can easily be replaced by other schools and Enchantment doesn't have as many good spells as the others.

[ThisOne]

That's a pretty general question. As swritten, there are 2 anwers (IMO):

1. Whatever is in character.

2. If you're aiming for a powerful caster, the answer is always evocation and a second, dificult choice. I usually choose between abjuration, conjuration or illusion (suplementing with magic items or annother PC's spells in the case of abjuration. Enchantment, divination, transmutation and necromancy are things you shouldn't be without.


I like enchantment, because I tend not to play against things with mind affecting immunity, and I play interaction heavy games. If you don't, then it's a good choice to get rid of

[Zanticor]

Ban enchantment because this is a school that depands entirely on saves. Just like your illusions will. Confusion is nice but you'll use your illusions to confuse. Sleep is great but you won't miss it if you have color spray. There will be a lot of people after this advicing you to drop evocation. Don't think you can coffer that loss with shadow evocation. Basting is fun!

Zanticor

[Arcane_Snowman]

Ban enchantment because this is a school that depands entirely on saves. Just like your illusions will. Confusion is nice but you'll use your illusions to confuse. Sleep is great but you won't miss it if you have color spray. There will be a lot of people after this advicing you to drop evocation. Don't think you can coffer that loss with shadow evocation. Basting is fun! which is why the conjuration spells Orb of X work, and they're even better than Evocation spells because they don't kill your team mates and they have no SR.

[Myrmex]

If you are focusing illusion, ban enchantment, especially since you know the DM likes undead.

Abjuration, conjuration, and transmutation should be schools you never give up- they're too full of good stuff. Abjuration can sometimes be passed up if your party cleric is willing to pick up the dispelling slack, as well as put up protective wards. Personally, I ban evocation and either illusion or enchantment. Typically I ban enchantment, since I like invisibility.

Also note that some really useful spells- gust of wind, sending, shatter, wall of force, and contingency, are all evocations. While you can replicate their effects with shadow evocations, gust of wind, shatter, and wall of force are pretty much useless as shadow evocations.

[Greg]

2. If you're aiming for a powerful caster, the answer is always evocation and a second, dificult choice. I usually choose between abjuration, conjuration or illusion (suplementing with magic items or annother PC's spells in the case of abjuration. Enchantment, divination, transmutation and necromancy are things you shouldn't be without.
Conjuration has some of the most useful spells (i.e. teleport, mage armour, grease, glitterdust, fog spells). Abjuration has dispel magic and a variety of great defensive buffs.

The OP wants to play an illusionist, so I'd drop evocation and enchantment if I were him. Enchantment is similar to illusion in terms of being a school mainly focusing on will save-type spells. Failing that, I'd ban necromancy.


Basting is fun!
I thought Baste Turkey was a transmutation or conjuration effect.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Also note that some really useful spells- gust of wind, sending, shatter, wall of force, and contingency, are all evocations. While you can replicate their effects with shadow evocations, gust of wind, shatter, and wall of force are pretty much useless as shadow evocations. While a Wall of Force is good enough that the fact that you cannot successfully replicate it makes it slightly inconvenient, Gust of Wind, Sending and Shatter are all of minute utility in comparison to the goodies and expansiveness of the other lists remaining.

[Myrmex]

While a Wall of Force is good enough that the fact that you cannot successfully replicate it makes it slightly inconvenient, Gust of Wind, Sending and Shatter are all of minute utility in comparison to the goodies and expansiveness of the other lists remaining.

You forgot contingency (unless your DM allows craft contingency).
Gust of wind & sending are of acute utility. Being able to instantaneously communicate with anyone is pretty sweet. Gust of wind is very, very useful against fog effects. If you ever are fighting enemy spellcasters, it becomes a handy spell to push solid or freezing fog off your fighters. Blood wind is pretty potent, though circumstantial. Defenestrating sphere is fun, and action efficient. Everything that creates force effects are evocation, as well. Though I agree; evocation gives you little else. Giving up evocation is a hell of a lot less painful than giving up transmutation or conjuration.

[monty]

Generally, you ban Evocation and one of Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy (Abjuration in certain cases). In your case, since Illusion already has lots of Will-save stuff, drop Enchantment.

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, Abjuration isn't that hard to get rid of. Most abjurations appear on the cleric spell list as well, moreso than any other school. The biggest loss there IMO is (Greater) Anticipate Teleport. Clerics can dispel better than wizards 9/10 times due to access to stuff like the Inquisition domain and feats like Divine Spell Power.

When I do a Focused Specialist, I specialize in Conjouration and drop Abjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. That seems to suit me best in actual play.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Gust of wind cannot be duplicated... except, yanno, with Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm).

OMG! No Contingency... only, yanno, you can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocationGreater.htm). Same with Forcecage, and without the components, no less. I'll trade that for a Will save.

Look, you are already an Illusionist. Evocation is a natural for you to ban, because you can do everything useful that Evocation can do for you with Shadow Evocation or the Greater version.

For the other side, that's a bit dicier. As stated, DO NOT ban the following: Conjuration, Transmutation, or Abjuration. Period. You are not allowed to ban Divination. That leaves Necromancy or Enchantment.

Enchantment has a lot of Will Save or Screwed... kinda like Illusion, only more Mind Affecting-ish. It does have some decent buffs (Heroism) and some decent spells (Feeblemind vs opponent arcane casters), but a Mind Blank is pretty much immunity to the nastiest of this school.

Necromancy has some Fort Save or Dead effects, plus some very nasty crippling effects. Enervation is one of the staples of any decent wizard, and one of the few that just gets better with Metamagic. But wait, you said your GM loves to throw undead at you? That is not a problem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm).

Personally, I'd ban Enchantment, because you already do Will effects with Illusion, and Necromancy has some very tasty debuffs. However, if you want to be the guy who makes people's minds curdle like month-old milk, Enchantment will be your shtick. Just remember, undead are immune to mind-affecting...

[Starscream]

Yeah, I'm with everyone else here: Evocation and Enchantment.

I tend to play three types of specialists: Illusionists, Conjurers or Transmuters.

I always ban Evocation. If you want to blast play a Sorcerer or Warmage. Wizards are capable of so much more.

for an Illusionist I'd definitely ditch enchantment.

[Flickerdart]

I always ban Evocation. If you want to blast play a Sorcerer or Warmage. Wizards are capable of so much more.
Warmages are not actually all that good. Psions are much better blasters.

[nightwyrm]

I'd echo everyone here and say ban evocation. For the second one, since your DM like undeads, you should ban enchantment since undeads are gonna be immune to half that school anyways. There are still quite a few necromancy spells that are good against undead. The second level control undead is pretty much instant win against mindless undeads.

[monty]

you should ban enchantment since undeads are gonna be immune to half that school anyways.

You mean all, right? I may be remembering wrong, but I thought that Enchantment is exclusively mind-affecting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You mean all, right? I may be remembering wrong, but I thought that Enchantment is exclusively mind-affecting.

There are some buffs, but by and large, yes everything offensive is mind-affecting.

[monty]

There are some buffs, but by and large, yes everything offensive is mind-affecting.

Pretty sure the buffs are too, though. Heroism is, for example.

[nightwyrm]

You mean all, right? I may be remembering wrong, but I thought that Enchantment is exclusively mind-affecting.

There may be a few that isn't but I'm too lazy to look thru a bunch of books to find it. The wizard spell school guides in the old 3.5 CharOps board probably points them out.

[Eldariel]

Conjuration is the strongest school in the game: something you should never, ever ban unless your character concept absolutely cannot stand to contain teleportation, summoning, the best battlefield control and all the other good effects. Conjuration and Transmutation are the two "OMG"-schools, and a character with just the two can do just about everything Wizard needs done (except Divining). Divination is the next most important, mostly since nothing replicates its stuff (not to mention it's unbannable) and Illusion has the best defenses, strong offense and it's the most powerful thing for a creative user.

That leaves Abjuration (perfectly bannable if somebody else handles Dispelling; absolutely necessary for the only caster in the party though), Enchantment (very single-minded, but good at what it does; really weak though), Necromancy (very focused offense school along with some Animate Dead-abilities; kinda redundant, but it's the best at what it does so banning it hurts a bit even if it has trouble piercing some common protections) & Evocation (easily the most bannable due to Shadow Evocation-line and the fact that Conjuration replicates just about everything the school does).

[Elminster1]

On the subject of banning schools and specialization, ever consider Focused Specialist for your Illusionist concept? Banning 3 schools can be rough, but all the extra castings rock. I agree with what Eldariel posted, its sickeningly true. Dont ban the 2 largest, most expansive schools of arcane magic. Conj and Trans just have so much bewteen them, youd lose an exceptional amount of power, for no practical gain.

However, that being said ad nauseum, Focused Specialist has the extra castings, which can be worth it. You could ban Evocation (best school to ban, because of the replication of its powers in other schools), Enchantment (your an Illusionist, so your a WILL killer anyway, so its redundant in that sense), and either Abjuration or Necro. If you have anyone on the party who has access to the dispel series, go for Focused Specialist and possibly ban Abj. Necro is a hot ultra ray de-buffer school, alot of no save rays, and gems like Ray of Exhaustion/Fear/Magic Jar, but its the BBEG school killer, so it just depends on who can cover what, and what your comfortable dropping.


I can say as far as school specialization is concerned, FSpecialists are powerful, especally for low-mid level campaigning, because of the extra castings. Not all schools are good choices for FSpecialists, but Illusion should be worthwhile, and fun :smalltongue:.

Oh, and slightly off topic, I dont know your characters race, but if your a Gnome, thats perfect. Then I'd reccomend the ubiquitous Shadowcraft Mage PRClass from Races of Stone sourcebook, mas cool. Master Specialist Illusionist from Complete Mage is an ok option, but seems strictly for non-Gnome Illusionists.

[Kurald Galain]

My suggestion? Go focused specialist for the (many!) extra spells, and drop three schools. Honestly, the point of a wizard is not that you can cherry-pick from as many schools as possible.

* Evocation isn't needed unless you want a blaster, and if you do want a blaster you should instead be thinking of warlock, warmage, or some rogue hybrid for the sneak attack dice.
* Necromancy is a solid school, yet a common drop for good-aligned characters who "don't swing that way".
* Abjuration is overrated. The only thing you'll miss is Dispel Magic, but there are several ways you can cover for that (the most obvious being "let the cleric or druid cast it").
* Enchantment overlaps with Illusion, but the latter is more versatile and more fun because of the Image line of spells. Both tend to become problematic at higher levels as more things become immune to mind effects.
* Don't drop transmutation or conjuration, because they're awesome; and you can't drop divination. So that leaves the above four, take your pick.

[Talic]

Enchantment offers mostly the same type of save vs spells as Illusion, so is a logical drop on the argument that you already have that task covered.

There are few real power spells in Evocation (Wall of Force, Contigency), but they're so effective, you can't do without them...

Which makes it very good that your proposed specialty, Illusion, has Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation, to make such spells when you need them.

If you want some power tips for an illusionist, try doing a google search for the following line:

+"Killer Gnome" +"illusionist"

It'll show you how silent image can slay a dragon.

EDIT: I personally find several useful spells in Abjuration, and I find necromancy has enervation, which is too useful to not have. You don't have to animate dead bodies to know when people need to die, and quickly. :)

[Farlion]

Honestly, the point of a wizard is not that you can cherry-pick from as many schools as possible.


Actually, thats exactly the point to play a wizard. Your huge choice of spells.

What school to ban? Evocation. If you're not convinced, read Logic Ninjas Guide to being batman.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085

Hf!

Cheers,
Farlion

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, thats exactly the point to play a wizard. Your huge choice of spells.

"Cherry-pick from as many schools as possible" is really not the same as "huge choice of spells".

If you ban three schools, you still have a huge choice of spells, obviously.

[monty]

What school to ban? Evocation.

That's pretty much a given. I think the problem here is choosing the second (and/or third) school(s) to drop, which is always a more difficult choice.

[ericgrau]

Abjuration, enchantment and necromancy tend to be weak and/or replaceable. Pick 2 of those.

Don't ban evocation as it is one of the most powerful schools available; it has some of the highest damage output spells. Anything to the contrary is a completely made up internet fad/rumor, and out of the 100 threads on it I have yet to see even one solid comparison to this effect. And I don't mean to the uber spell haste, which you should cast in preference to all other spells, not just damage. It can only be cast once. Evocation also has plenty of great control spells; and you'll be losing versatility to lose them. Shadow evocation compromises damage, etc. so much it isn't even worth mentioning.

[Keld Denar]

Conjouration has a ton of single target and AoE damage spells that have similar caps, similar dice sizes, and best of all, NO SR! Blast of Flame, Arc Lightning, Orbs, and similar are all better than respective Evocations.

[monty]

Conjouration has a ton of single target and AoE damage spells that have similar caps, similar dice sizes, and best of all, NO SR! Blast of Flame, Arc Lightning, Orbs, and similar are all better than respective Evocations.

Not to mention, y'know, being good at stuff besides damage.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't ban evocation as it is one of the most powerful schools available; it has some of the highest damage output spells.Orb of X is Conjuration, with a high damage cap and no save/SR.
Anything to the contrary is a completely made up internet fad/rumor, and out of the 100 threads on it I have yet to see even one solid comparison to this effect. And I don't mean to the uber spell haste, which you should cast in preference to all other spells, not just damage. It can only be cast once. Evocation also has plenty of great control spells; and you'll be losing versatility to lose them. Shadow evocation compromises damage, etc. so much it isn't even worth mentioning.The only things Evoc has that are worth mentioning are replicated by either Conjuration(for damage) or Shadow Evocation(for effects[Contingency etc]).

[Leon]

Enchantment - Mind Affecting and the Mindless don't mix very well
Necromancy - While there maybe some spells that are useful vs the Undead there are more that are not



As an aside the last wizard that i created had Conjuration & Necromancy banned although i didn't get to play him much.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Enchantment - Mind Affecting and the Mindless don't mix very well
Necromancy - While there maybe some spells that are useful vs the Undead there are more that are not



As an aside the last wizard that i created had Conjuration & Necromancy banned although i didn't get to play him much.

While some people insist that you can't play without conjuration and transmutation, it is in fact quite possible to play an evocation focused specialist that bans transmutation, illusion and conjuration. Yes, you'll lose out on a lot of good spells, but your a wizard, it's not like you're underpowered or something.

[Leon]

While some people insist that you can't play without conjuration and transmutation, it is in fact quite possible to play an evocation focused specialist that bans transmutation, illusion and conjuration. Yes, you'll lose out on a lot of good spells, but your a wizard, it's not like you're underpowered or something.

Exactly.

While my mentioned Wizard has those schools banned its from a role playing stand point more than anything as i like to keep a full access typically - if I'm going to play a School focused caster I'll prefer to play a Sorcerer (although these days I'm more likely to play a Generalist Sorcerer than a wizard.)

I play in a game where there is a Evoker (coughpyrocough) who also has a nice range of spells for other times, now i cant recall what his second banned school is but the first is Divination.

[Graymayre]

Clearly the first one you should ban is Conjuration. I mean, why summon monsters when you can just make illusionary ones right? Plus with shadow invocation at later levels, you can just create ones that are partial illusions, and it's only like your enemies will attack them part of the time anyway.
If you haven't realized I'm joking, please grow a sense of humor
The next one you have to get rid of is Transmutation, which is definitely one of the weaker schools (obviously you waste too much time and too many spells using it). C'mon, why buff your team mates when you can just trick your opponent into believing they'll be buffed? More than likely, those enemies will run away since they're fighting a wizard anyway; letting you do something more important; like making more illusionary monsters. :smallwink:



now i cant recall what his second banned school is but the first is Divination.

Are you playing by houserules that lets you ban divination? :smallconfused:

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Why the sarcastic reply?



Are you playing by houserules that lets you ban divination? :smallconfused:

Add in some spells like these (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/STcFi6l45eoAbaxiYPn.html) and that would make a fine houserule combined with forcing diviners to ban two schools just like everybody else.

[Saph]

"Cherry-pick from as many schools as possible" is really not the same as "huge choice of spells".

If you ban three schools, you still have a huge choice of spells, obviously.

Yeah, I think people get too hung up on having access to every spell ever. You just don't need it. Count up the number of good-or-better spells out there and then count up how many spell slots your low-level wizard has, and you'll find that the first number is way bigger than the second. Heck, you can play a wizard with nothing but the two free spells you get at every level and do just fine.

The only time school bans are really important are if you're playing core-only or with otherwise limited selection - and even then you can find workarounds to most gaps if you try.

- Saph

[Leon]

Are you playing by houserules that lets you ban divination? :smallconfused:

Ya.
Its something I've had in my games from the get go so its nice to see other people doing it.

As Saph mentioned, Workarounds help.
Our Pyro Evoker has a Cleric and a Archivist in the party and a Sorcerer who is doing well at covering the Non burning damage types

[Thespianus]

Ya.
Its something I've had in my games from the get go so its nice to see other people doing it.
Uhm.. How do the Wizards.. uhm..you know.. read ... their magic?

Or do they use a Read Magic cantrip from the Evocation school? ;)

[ericgrau]

Orb of X is Conjuration, with a high damage cap and no save/SR.The only things Evoc has that are worth mentioning are replicated by either Conjuration(for damage) or Shadow Evocation(for effects[Contingency etc]).

What is the damage cap anyway? (A XdY number, please) For what level spell? I never see it specified. Only that forum users harp about no save/SR and conjuration school whereas the developers harp about damage with a special effect. All I know is that our party archmage with access to Spell Compendium still opted for tweaked out energy substituted metamagicked scorching rays and fireballs to pump out damage. Scorching ray and all the other targetted spells, plus meteor swarm (against 1 target), allow SR but don't allow a save, btw.

And if anything I think I would want to take shadow conjuration for all the good mid/low level conjuration spells. You're not missing much in conjuration to have all the spell levels except the highest, whereas removing the no save/SR and functional in an AMF pretty much kills all the advantages of a wall of force or forcecage. Putting a 2nd save on a single target SoL like resilient sphere likewise isn't too great, whereas area effects or multi-save conjuration effects feel less pain from that.

I think the orb of X spells are screwed up for a lot of reasons - wrong school, no save/SR, and that those applications are abusive applications outside the main design intent: damage plus an effect. I'd be careful about allowing them in real games. But besides that, as mentioned, once your bring splatbooks onto the table banned school choices have much less of an impact. You can ban just about anything and find substitutes from other schools. Evocation has more than just damage even in core, for example.

[Kylarra]

What is the damage cap anyway? (A XdY number, please) For what level spell? I never see it specified. Only that forum users harp about no save/SR and conjuration school whereas the developers harp about damage with a special effect. All I know is that our party archmage with access to Spell Compendium still opted for tweaked out energy substituted metamagicked scorching rays and fireballs to pump out damage. Scorching ray and all the other targetted spells, plus meteor swarm (against 1 target), allow SR but don't allow a save, btw.15D6 @ 4th level spell for standard Orb of X, Orb of Force caps at 10D6 and Orb of Sonic caps at 15D4

[Random NPC]

Abjuration, enchantment and necromancy tend to be weak and/or replaceable. Pick 2 of those.

Don't ban evocation as it is one of the most powerful schools available; it has some of the highest damage output spells. Anything to the contrary is a completely made up internet fad/rumor, and out of the 100 threads on it I have yet to see even one solid comparison to this effect. And I don't mean to the uber spell haste, which you should cast in preference to all other spells, not just damage. It can only be cast once. Evocation also has plenty of great control spells; and you'll be losing versatility to lose them. Shadow evocation compromises damage, etc. so much it isn't even worth mentioning.
Reason to ban Evocation:

Why focus on damage when EVERYONE in the party already does it and most of the times even more effectively then you? Make your party better, your enemies worse and everything will be more easier.

The wizard in the party I DM for is slowly learning that his Color Spray is 10 times more effective than his Evocation spells. He has access to Spell Compendium, but all his non-evocation spells are from Core! And even in Core only, Evocation has less control than Conjuration.

Just test it out... a Party with two Wizards... one pimped out Evoker and one Tippy Batman Conjurer, see who's better

[Zaq]

I can see a reason to keep Evocation, even though it is (I agree) easily the weakest school: it gives you something other than win buttons. While it's entirely possible (some would say all too easy) to make a Wizard who has almost nothing but win buttons, sometimes that's not a good idea (for example, when done inelegantly, it can make party members pissy, for good reason). Evocation lets you still be flashy without necessarily overshadowing everyone else, then you pull out your Solid Fog or Polymorph when the situation's really dire (instead of as a general rule of thumb). Sure, you could just refrain from using your best spells without anything to replace them with, but how pretentious does THAT look? "Oh, I could end this encounter with a flick of my wrist, but I want to give you guys a chance to do something. I'll just wait here." Evocations let you contribute without dominating.

Of course, that's not necessarily the best way to do that. I would argue that party buffs are the best way to contribute without dominating. But I can, at least, see a reason to keep Evocation... though probably only as a Diviner, since it's hard enough banning two schools when you nix Evocation, let alone when you don't.

Eh, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I make no bones about the fact that compared to the others, Evocation is the weakest school. But it makes a good "filler" school to help out without making the rest of the party irrelevant, like a good (or rather bad) wizard can do easily.

[Eldariel]

Necromancy does the "harmful, but not necessarily lethal offense" better than Evocation mostly because Necromancy-effects tend to double as debuffs. Take Enervation or Ray of Enfeeblement as examples.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why in the world would a Wizard want to focus on doing damage? It's about the worst thing a Wizard can do.

"Oh, look at me! I can dish out impressive damage numbers. Only, yanno, so can the beatstick, and he doesn't have to blow spell slots to do it... so while I might run out, he'll still be dishing out impressive damage numbers all day long... Oh, and almost nothing we run up against is going to be immune to the flavor 'physical damage' either."

Congratulations, you've taken the strongest Core class, and made it worse than a Core Fighter. Have a nice day.

Stick to your buffs and your debuffs. It is something which the other classes don't do as well, normally, and is almost always going to be either out-damaging your blast-o-mancy, or effectively being a better healer than a Cleric by keeping opponents from damaging your party in the first place.

[Leon]

Uhm.. How do the Wizards.. uhm..you know.. read ... their magic?

Or do they use a Read Magic cantrip from the Evocation school? ;)

Don't know what they are doing in that regard, not playing a Wizard so Ive not bothered to find out.
For mine Read & Detect magic are in the Universal School

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

In my experience the choice of schools to ban depends on the level of play. At low levels Abjuration isn't very useful, but by the high levels the school has a host of very powerful spells that you'll want to cast every day. On the other hand, Necromancy is a great school in the early levels, but by the high levels everything is either immune or highly resistant to necromantic effects.

I'd keep conjuration and transmutation not only for the power but because those spells are just fun.

[Kurald Galain]

I can see a reason to keep Evocation, even though it is (I agree) easily the weakest school: it gives you something other than win buttons.
Every other school has plenty of spells that aren't "win buttons". Such as every single buff spell, divination spell, non-terminal debuff, and summon.


Why in the world would a Wizard want to focus on doing damage? It's about the worst thing a Wizard can do.
This is precisely the point. You can either compete with your party members (by trying to out-damage them) or support them by doing something entirely different that helps them. Gee, I wonder what's more fun here.


Only, yanno, so can the beatstick,
Who is this Yanno you keep talking about? :P

[BlueWizard]

Definitely NOT transmutation.

I'd say conjuring and necromancy for an illusionist.

[monty]

Definitely NOT transmutation.

I'd say conjuring and necromancy for an illusionist.

Except not Conjuration, because it's both the most powerful and most varied school. You get buffs, debuffs, battlefield control, direct damage, and a bunch of other miscellaneous stuff. Conjuration is the last school you should ban.

[Thespianus]

For mine Read & Detect magic are in the Universal School
Fair enough.

[Talic]

Just test it out... a Party with two Wizards... one pimped out Evoker and one Tippy Batman Conjurer, see who's better

If you want further evidence? The Cindy build of wizard that Tippy put forth (at 20th level, reliably able to kill 2 great wyrm core dragons in 1 round) uses conjuration, rather than evocation, for its damage. And that's pretty much the height of blasting, and uses a bit of batman to boot.

[Myrmex]

Gust of wind cannot be duplicated... except, yanno, with Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm).

OMG! No Contingency... only, yanno, you can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocationGreater.htm). Same with Forcecage, and without the components, no less. I'll trade that for a Will save.

Look, you are already an Illusionist. Evocation is a natural for you to ban, because you can do everything useful that Evocation can do for you with Shadow Evocation or the Greater version.

The usefulness of gust of wind isn't blowing away small creatures, it's dispersing battlefield control spells. Since the fog from a conjuration effect isn't a creature, shadow evocation isn't going to do a lot.

Likewise, force effects might keep creatures out, but it won't keep objects out, nor will it function in an AMF, and will be subject to dispel.

Your reliance on high saves working for your shadow things means that what once was an impenetrable barrier now functions 20 or 30 percent of the time vs. opponents the DM decides aren't going to go down with a single spell.

Also, note that greater shadow evocation is an 8th level spell, while contingency is only 6th.

[Greg]

If you want further evidence? The Cindy build of wizard that Tippy put forth (at 20th level, reliably able to kill 2 great wyrm core dragons in 1 round) uses conjuration, rather than evocation, for its damage. And that's pretty much the height of blasting, and uses a bit of batman to boot.
Can I get a link for that?

[Flickerdart]

The trick being that Conjuration has better damage spells than Evocation. Orb of Force has no save or SR, and can be tricked out with so much Metamagic that it cuts through enemies like a hot knife through CR20 butter.

[The MunchKING]

I'm going to be playing a wizard that specializes in illusion. My question is what schools should I ban? I was thinking necromancy, but the DM likes a lot of undead. So, I don't know.

Ban 'em all!! Play a Wizard with only one spell, prepared in ALL his spell slots. :smallbiggrin:

THAT'll give you a challenge.

[Eldariel]

Ban 'em all!! Play a Wizard with only one spell, prepared in ALL his spell slots. :smallbiggrin:

THAT'll give you a challenge.

That's...like a Fighter!

[Thespianus]

That's...like a Fighter!

It's like a better fighter than the Fighter. ;) With Lesser Orbs of Force in all 1-3 spell slots, pimped with metamagic, and with Orbs of Force in all 4-X spell slots, equally pimped, the Focused Conjurer will deliver plenty of hurt for a long time. :)

I'm sure there's some Force Reserve Feat available as well :)

EDIT: It's not my day today. I was sure there was a Lesser Orb of Force spell.

[monty]

Ban 'em all!! Play a Wizard with only one spell, prepared in ALL his spell slots. :smallbiggrin:

THAT'll give you a challenge.

Shadowcraft Mage. All I need is Silent Image.

[Leon]

Ban 'em all!! Play a Wizard with only one spell, prepared in ALL his spell slots. :smallbiggrin:

THAT'll give you a challenge.

Play exclusively with Universal School Spells




EDIT: It's not my day today. I was sure there was a Lesser Orb of Force spell.

Replace with Magic Missile perhaps

[Flickerdart]

Play exclusively with Universal School Spells
Twinned, Empowered, Maximized Prestidigitation? That, Arcane Mark, Permanency, Wish and limited Wish are essentially your only spells, so it won't really work.

[Thespianus]

Twinned, Empowered, Maximized Prestidigitation? That, Arcane Mark, Permanency, Wish and limited Wish are essentially your only spells, so it won't really work.

Maybe you can make Prestidigitation permanent with Permanency? It'd make you the best one man house cleaning service EVER!

(Well, until a Focused Conjurer comes along. Somehow, someway, they always do everything better than everyone else :smallwink: )

[Random NPC]

Maybe you can make Prestidigitation permanent with Permanency? It'd make you the best one man house cleaning service EVER!

(Well, until a Focused Conjurer comes along. Somehow, someway, they always do everything better than everyone else :smallwink: )

Damn... Conjurers can do THAT too! :smallannoyed:

I'm starting to think that there's nothing a Conjurer CAN'T do :smallsigh:

[Keld Denar]

I'm starting to think that there's nothing a Conjurer CAN'T do :smallsigh:

Can a Conjurer see why kids love Cinnimon Toast Crunch?

[JoshuaZ]

Twinned, Empowered, Maximized Prestidigitation? That, Arcane Mark, Permanency, Wish and limited Wish are essentially your only spells, so it won't really work.

There are also some spells in the Spell Compendium that improve your familiar that are universal.


Off the top of my head, there might be some effective ways to use prestidigitation that don't work that badly.

You can use Snowcasting (from Frostburn) and Flash Frost (from PHB II?) so the spell deals 2 cold damage. Now, that's not impressive but here's the fun part: You can now use Fell Animate (I don't remember if this is from Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror) and poke a dying being with the spell. Fel Animate animates as zombies beings killed by your spells that can be zombified (essentially effect of an animate dead spell with no material components). So you can get an army of zombies using 4th level spell slots. And, if you take the Corpsecrafter line of spells you can get quite powerful. Limited Wish can be used to duplicate Awaken Undead and you can get an undead army. You won't be that impressive as necromancers go but its better than nothing.