OOTS #639 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Porthos

2009-03-20, 03:00 PM

If V's intent is what matters, which seems to be the argument for the "This is so evil" side, then the fact that s/he is justifying to hirself that the act isn't evil, would indicate that hir intent is not evil. If the intent was evil, there would be no need to justify it.

So is it the intent that makes the act evil or is it the nature of the act itself as you seem to be saying now? Because if intent doesn't matter, then killing tons of evil creatures is good. If intent IS what matters, then the fact that V isn't intending it as an evil act means that it's not.

<Evil Chorus>
"The pain ended too soon..."
"We have only begun to bring misery"
"There is still so much we can do"
</Evil Chorus>

V: I concur. Create Greater Undead.

V is agreeing that the ABD needs to suffer, and horribly so. How is that not evil? As for the reasons stated, of course they're evil. If you squint, you might say killing off immediate family members to stop the cycle of revenge might be good. Shaya Right.

But their families? And their families' families? And their families' families' familes?

Under no possible definition that I can see was this prevenative in nature. This was pure "to the third tenth generation" retribution.

There was no justice here, nor was there any real attempt to protect the lives of others (whether that is a side effect or not is neither here nor there). This was malice and vengence.

In short, I ain't buying the "I'm doing it to save my family" arguments. V is either self-deluded or flat out lying. Especially (as a thread starter astutely noticed) since he hasn't exactly looked them in the eye once since he popped back home. Or V is so drunk with power/evil that his judgment and resoning is severly impared.

Let me put it another way. Let's say you want to make sure that your child can never be harmed in a village. So you go out and murder each and every person in said village. Now no one from that village can possibly hurt your child.

Is that anything but evil? I think we all know the answer to that question. :smallwink:

David Argall

2009-03-20, 03:04 PM

Quite a flood or response.

This should convince everyone that Super-V is not going to be around for long. Either she gets demoted or the story is quite simply over. So enjoy him while you can. She is going away soon.

The Blackbird

2009-03-20, 03:06 PM

sadly no. Apparently, to some people, killing "always Evil" and even "usually evil" creatures (half dragons) is a good act, or the half dragons considered "acceptable collateral damage".

The reasons V did it was evil.

hamishspence

2009-03-20, 03:17 PM

even if V had been completely honest about "to prevent further attacks" a dubious propostion at best, the act itself was rather like Order 66.

"If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end" used as a justification for killing most of the jedi, without warning.

Yes, the dragons (and maybe, the half-dragons), were almost certainly evil. Still, act comes across as mass murder.

Particle_Man

2009-03-20, 03:26 PM

"Utterly random and undiscerning". Need a better definition of "chaotic"? :smallsmile:

Except that the spell was utterly ordered and quite discerning. It was all and only members of the MBD's family, for the specific purpose of preventing future revenge-based attacks on V's family. I would call it more Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil. Mind you, I had the Necromancer pegged as Neutral Evil, and old pre-pact V pegged as Neutral.

It might be foolish (in that the Oracle likely has a contingency plan, and serves Tiamat). It is likely evil. It is not chaotic, as far as I can see.

I wonder what the limits of the spell actually are. Is there a set limit of targets the spell will stop at? Does the spell "skip over" broken links in the family chain (like, killing a great-great-grandparent, if the intervening generations were dead before the spell had been cast)?

Kaytara

2009-03-20, 03:30 PM

"Utterly random and undiscerning". Need a better definition of "chaotic"? :smallsmile:

But it's neither random nor undiscerning. The spell targets creatures of a very specific type, very specific subtype, very specific colour and very specific common element in their bloodline. It's methodical and very goal-oriented. Sounds rather Lawful to me.

A spell that would be "utterly random and undiscerning" would be more along the lines of killing a random number of creatures chosen completely at random, with no regards to creature type, race or alignment.

Particle_Man

2009-03-20, 03:31 PM

Especially (as a thread starter astutely noticed) since he hasn't exactly looked them in the eye once since he popped back home.

Well to be fair, V is aware of the "3 for 1" nature of the bargain, and may be trying to efficiently minimize splice-time before stopping the splice and *then* engaging in a conversation with Parent, which would otherwise likely burn up a lot of rounds that the fiends would get back 3 for 1.

Particle_Man

2009-03-20, 03:32 PM

Undead dragon is a requirement for casting Familicide? Why an undead dragon specificly? Why cast Create Greater Undead specificly if undead dragon is need, as opposed to, sentient undead dragon? I also only see a undead dragon head but that is splitting hairs.

My guess: V needs the Dragon's soul to make the spell work. Create Greater Undead might get the soul back in a way that making a simple zombie wouldn't. And V doesn't have access to Resurrect, etc., or other means of getting that particular dragon's soul.

Kyouhen

2009-03-20, 03:37 PM

I'm eager to find out just how far this spell reaches. Half-dragons are obviously affected. But does it go down far enough to hit Sorcerers too? After all, they usually get their power from being related to dragons. And how far up does it go? All chromatic dragons are related to Tiamat, and Kobolds are supposed to be related to the first dragons too. This could be unpleasant. :smalleek:

hamishspence

2009-03-20, 03:43 PM

Sorcerers tend to get powers from being related to something magical- it doesn't have to be a dragon though. And there are feats, for sorcerers designed to represent slightly stronger connection, but not strong enough to be a different creature. Celestial and Infernal Bloodline, for example, in Planar Handbook.

The next step down from Half Dragon (but step up from Draconic Bloodline feats) is Draconic Creature template- looks visibly draconic, but not nearly as much as a half-dragon.

So, it might run:

Human with no powers but very distant ancestry
Human sorcerer (draconic origin)
Human with Draconic Bloodline feats
Draconic Human
Half-Dragon Human

Showing escalating percentage of dragon blood.

Leta

2009-03-20, 03:46 PM

Come on... if anything, V's alignment is now LG...

I mean, God's done things similar to this in the Bible, right?

... Kidding! Geez.

Yendor

2009-03-20, 03:55 PM

Well to be fair, V is aware of the "3 for 1" nature of the bargain, and may be trying to efficiently minimize splice-time before stopping the splice and *then* engaging in a conversation with Parent, which would otherwise likely burn up a lot of rounds that the fiends would get back 3 for 1.

Which will all be immaterial in the end, as V is quickly headed for a one-way ticket to the Lower Planes anyway. The 3-for-1 deal had a hell of a string attached.

Rotipher

2009-03-20, 03:59 PM

Whoa....

{picks jaw off floor, pushes bugged-out eyes back into sockets}

Talk about over-the-top effects! This not only returns Mama Dragon's own escalation of their feud, it raises the ante by a mile. I'm honestly scared of V's power at this point, and wondering how far the fallout from this mass nuking of dragons and dragon-kin will land. (Also, whether our spliced Evil epic necromancer actually left anyone alive on her native world, in her own efforts to "destroy everyone who ever crossed" her: Jadis of Charn, eat your heart out! :smalleek:)

Others have already pointed out the presence of half-dragons amongst the slain kin, but I have to speculate: does Rich adhere to the default PHB idea that sorcerers have dragon blood in their ancestry? If so, could V have just caused a bunch of them to drop dead in their tracks, along with the dragons and half-dragons we saw? Xykon would likely be immune due to his lichdom, but there are other sorcerers in this series who could well bite it from this effect, if it's black dragon blood they carry in their veins ... including Nale (fighter/rogue/sorcerer), which means Elan would die, too.

More, I'm wondering just how easily the Familicide effect can be traced back to V. If it can, ve may well be targeted for destruction by not only any surviving black dragons who'd been mates of the dead ones, but by every other species which can deduce the nature of the spell. A spellcaster who has and uses that kind of indiscriminate power is simply too dangerous to be allowed to live -- not by other dragons, not by Tiamat, not even by vir fellow humanoids -- and would be hunted down like a gibbering psychotic who'd somehow gotten hold of a suitcase nuke. If V's ever to have the hope of a normal life again, the Splice's expiration had better cause divinatory attempts to "Find the Familicide-al maniac!" to be directed toward the necromancer's soul in Hades, not virself. Otherwise, ve's just traded the remote possibility that another dragon might seek revenge for the certainty that ve'll be targeted for termination by a terrified world.

delguidance

2009-03-20, 04:01 PM

Ohhh the Jedi are gonna feel that one.

SkredlitheOgre

2009-03-20, 04:04 PM

Oh.

Damn.

harami2000

2009-03-20, 04:04 PM

(double-post, sorry; next page)

hamishspence

2009-03-20, 04:06 PM

yes-

V: Kill one (possibly only) member of Immediate Family (offspring, siblings, parents)

Mama: Torture and kill and soul bind three members of Immediate (though not related- adopted children and spouse) Family.

V: Kill Every member of fairly distant family.

harami2000

2009-03-20, 04:07 PM

But it's neither random nor undiscerning. The spell targets creatures of a very specific type, very specific subtype, very specific colour and very specific common element in their bloodline. It's methodical and very goal-oriented. Sounds rather Lawful to me.

A spell that would be "utterly random and undiscerning" would be more along the lines of killing a random number of creatures chosen completely at random, with no regards to creature type, race or alignment.
Confusing mechanics with effect, IMHO. Simply looking up a database does not increase the amount of "law and order" in the universe.

There is absolutely no way to know what the net effect of dealing out woe in such a manner and scale is going to be regardless of the actual mechanism the spell uses in determining its targets and no way to restrain that, even if one could.
The spell is not acting in a consciously lawful manner, since it has none, and delivers death to all and an unknown amount of chaos to each situation "worldwide" regardless of any other consideration whatsoever (totally undiscerning to the situation/alignment/etc. of each of the ABD's relatives, for example, in this case).

Glome

2009-03-20, 04:08 PM

What I find interesting here is how disinterested the Oracle was about the slaughter of so many of his patron God's followers. Seriously, the oracle gave no warning to the ancient black dragon that threatening V. while an imp is present is a really bad idea, one that would result in the death of a large portion of the black dragons on the planet.

Of course if he did warn the ABD, V.'s prophecy probably wouldn't come true.

malakim2099

2009-03-20, 04:13 PM

it may be, that only family members within a certain closeness are affected. 15th cousins 10 times removed, or some similar distant connection, may not count as "family"

Honestly, considering that she is ancient... it might just be her and all of her offspring, however distant or (more likely) her siblings and herself, and all their blood descendants. Which is decidedly an evil act, regardless of the targets.

And Haley is a half-dragon? Um, who came up with THAT goofy theory... it's pretty obvious from the depictions of half-dragons that Haley is NOT that. Now, maybe she's an aasimar/half-celestial or something... but that's still pretty unlikely. :smalltongue:

Berserk Monk

2009-03-20, 04:25 PM

Nice comic. I love the half-dragon centaur.:smallbiggrin:

Silverraptor

2009-03-20, 04:25 PM

Porthos

2009-03-20, 04:32 PM

Of course if he did warn the ABD, V.'s prophecy probably wouldn't come true.

And that's the thing. If the Oracle can't give an incorrect prophcey, then he can't warn the ABD ahead of time in such a way that invalidates the future.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Prophet.png"'A head of time'. Haw, I slay me. Or rather a whole bunch of other people, as the case may be."

Seriously though, he might have warned the Ancient Black Dragon about this whole situation and to be careful, but if he said these things outside of the Oracle Trance, then the ABD would have forgotten that she should try to not lose her head while persuing revenge.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Prophet.png"Not to lose her head" being a more precise term than the ABD thought. :smallwink:

Sturmjaeger

2009-03-20, 04:34 PM

.... "Suvie?"

Selene

2009-03-20, 04:44 PM

First: This. This is Willow flaying Warren evil.

At least Warren did something to piss her off. No innocents were harmed by that particular action. I think V is a little farther down the slippery slope than that already.

Wow V not cool. Reminds me of:

"I didn't kill just one Husnock, or a hundred, or a thousand. I killed them all. All Husnock, everywhere."

obscure reference, I know

TNG can never be obscure. :smallwink: And yes, I agree with you. I think I made the same face Picard did.

Jadis of Charn, eat your heart out! :smalleek:

Why I like hanging out here: Everybody watches and reads the same stuff as me. :smallbiggrin:

Particle_Man

2009-03-20, 04:49 PM

Confusing mechanics with effect, IMHO. Simply looking up a database does not increase the amount of "law and order" in the universe.

There is absolutely no way to know what the net effect of dealing out woe in such a manner and scale is going to be regardless of the actual mechanism the spell uses in determining its targets and no way to restrain that, even if one could.
The spell is not acting in a consciously lawful manner, since it has none, and delivers death to all and an unknown amount of chaos to each situation "worldwide" regardless of any other consideration whatsoever (totally undiscerning to the situation/alignment/etc. of each of the ABD's relatives, for example, in this case).

It has a pretty obvious net effect. A lot less Black Dragons and a few less half-Black Dragons in the world, comprising all and only members of the head's family. The intended effect is to stop a blood feud, based on the data that killing one member of the family caused another member of the family to start a blood feud. It was not a "hey let's see what *this* spell does!" kind of casting. The motive (and motive is what is important in OOTS world) was not chaotic; it was to gain control over a situation in an efficient manner. If Sherlock Holmes were in on the mystery of the dead dragons, he could solve it quite readily "The major clue, Watson, is that all of the victims of this spell were related! Now who would want to destroy an entire family, and why?" That doesn't work if it is chaotic, and there is no discernible pattern to follow. Think of how Batman was stymied by the Joker in Dark Knight until he realized that the Joker didn't really *have* a motive to destruction except "to watch the world burn".

Death is not inherently chaotic. The spell caused a lot of death. It did not cause a lot of chaos. As far as I can tell, it caused a rabbit to escape, some adventurers to wonder what happened (and then loot some treasure), and presumably a lot of people to come upon some black dragon and half-black dragon corpses in various locales, if said corpses are not eaten by wildlife first. As for further effects, well, any action at all (lawful or chaotic) could have further effects, if you go far enough down the timeline. The question then is which effects are reasonably predictable. And we don't know if V is finished yet with her plan of "securing her family from revenge attacks", on that score. I find it telling that V has Mind Blank on, btw.

I am leaning towards the casting being evil (although I am not as convinced as others that this is a slam dunk) but I remain unconvinced that it was more chaotic than lawful.

Nezmith

2009-03-20, 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that V just condemned his/her-self and his/her family.

The Chromatic Dragons will not likely just sit around and wonder why so many of their kin just instantly died.

V referred to the Necromancer's spirit as "Friend." I'd consider that V has crossed into LE territory.

V was also smiling as he/she cast the Familicide spell. Usually V's face is very neutral, but at this point, he/she was obviously smiling and enjoying what was taking place. Evil.

V is going to be spending quite a bit of time with the Fiends, and V's family has just likely been placed in even more danger than they were before.

Rakim Avishot

2009-03-20, 05:08 PM

Are all of those dragons her offspring or related? That seems a bit much, more
like genocide, or that it is powerful enough to slay even distant relatives by
backtracking in the family tree.

Nothing good can come out of tipping the balance like that.

These are ancient black dragons. They're, like, immortal! That means that these could very well be only "close" relatives. I find it pretty feasible that 63 dragons can be in the same family, if only something like, 17th cousins. And yes, I did count. 58 dragons+1 head+4 eggs.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-03-20, 05:12 PM

Familicide kills every sentient being...directly related to the target...
then it goes for every sentient being related to those targets...
and everyone related to those targets...

V JUST KILLED EVERYTHING EVER!!! Poor Kevin Bacon. Poor horse.

I take comfort in imagining this scenario:

Tiamat: *Sigh* you're right, loyal minion. I just don't have the resources to make a full out attack on the Elven Gods. I'll tell everyone to abandon Operation:GRRRSNARL right now.
Mob of Black Dragons: *Poof* What th- What's happe- TIAMAT! Oh, great ancestor of all dragon kind, why have you called us to thy realm?
Tiamat: :smallconfused: :smallsmile: A simple plan I call Operation:GRRRSNARL...

Hectonkhyres

2009-03-20, 05:16 PM

And the sin is on V's shoulders. Not the infernal powers, not the souls bound to him... V. All alone. He may of been smoking evil like it was crack, but he is the one that did this.

Oh hell. The only question now is which pit of eternal suffering he is condemned to. NE, CE, LE?

Well played, triad of evil. Well played. You didn't even need to lie.

Familicide kills every sentient being...directly related to the target...
then it goes for every sentient being related to those targets...
and everyone related to those targets...

V JUST KILLED EVERYTHING EVER!!!
Only in a world with evolution. If the gods created black dragons out of whole cloth, it would only mean every black dragon in the world. Possibly excluding any created during genesis who remained virgins up to the present.

Sutremaine

2009-03-20, 05:18 PM

Ew, did V actually eat part of the ABD?

I do wonder how much blood needs to be shared before the spell ceases to work, or whether the spell kills a certain number of targets starting with the most closely related. I guess V will explain it well enough next strip though.

fruityjanitor

2009-03-20, 05:19 PM

Please PLEASE! Tell me that, THAT comic ended all the "V is not evil he/she's neutral arguments!

You'd think it would, wouldn't you?

But if you read this thread, you will see that there are a lot of people arguing that it is a neutral or even good (!) act since Black Dragons are "always chaotic evil".

I also think it's funny that people are defending it as a practical act. It could quite likely earn V the wrath of Tiamat. Even if it doesn't, the Oracle will be able to trace the blame back to V and it is quite possible that some dragon (or even a non-dragon) who had a friend killed by that spell would come after her for revenge. People don't just seek revenge when their blood relatives are killed... I kind of doubt that is the direction Rich is going to take the story, but still...

DBear

2009-03-20, 05:21 PM

:blink: :blink: :blink:
Ok, now I'm scared...

...and was that a dragon/centaur hybrid in the strip?
(makes vision check)

Qualm

2009-03-20, 05:21 PM

The IFCC may have agreed not to condemn V's soul to the Hells, but with this action she has done so on her own.

That's what many people don't get about dealing with the Devil. You can sell your soul wholesale, or in installments, but the Devil always owns you in the end.

It seems to me that the spell should be called Genocide, and this strip should have been titled "The Final Solution."

On the other hand, I liked the name " 'Suvie." "V" is functional, and referring to someone of Vaarsuvius' power by a single letter or a euphemism can be a sign of respect or fear (like saying "the Lord of Lies" or "the Prince of Darkness" rather than "Satan") but 'Suvie is sweet and intimate.

Probably only a lover could get away with calling V that, given how image-conscious the wizard can be. It also speaks of a very different side to V than what s/he presents to us in the strip. Someone gentler, and more tender, who doesn't spend his/her time killing people, with increasing emotional detachement, for a living.

Unfortunately, 'Suvie isn't around anymore.... :smallfrown:

Zanaril

2009-03-20, 05:25 PM

Ew, did V actually eat part of the ABD?

It tastes like victory. And chicken.

Porthos

2009-03-20, 05:33 PM

civver

2009-03-20, 05:51 PM

This is quite unsettling. You know a person is irredeemable if they commit genocide on such a massive scale. And they are doing it for something relatively minor in comparison. And they are enjoying it. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I loved seeing all the other dragons. Great comic. :smallsmile:

Kaytara

2009-03-20, 05:52 PM

Another point about V. Look at how he is relishing the after-affects of Familicide. All he is missing is the Insane Cackle as his circle ray of destruction proceedes outward.

I'm sorry, but dude is practically giddy at all of the death he is unleashing.

Anyone gots a non-evil (with these sets of circumstances) explanation for that? :smallamused:

Well, one thing that makes this interesting is the strongly emphasized Alignment Feedback of the Soul Splice. We know from the comic that the souls are influencing Vaarsuvius, and that V's ability to keep the Soul Splice under control directly depends on his strength of will. And V's last shreds of confidence and willpower were completely stripped away in 634 - earlier, he could at least still hold on to the notion that he was doing this for noble reasons.
Thus, we don't know how much of it is V and how much is the evil souls - in fact, since it is NOT in V's style to laugh, cackle and smile while casting spells (or laugh at all, actually), you could make a strong case that anything V does now does not really reflect V's morality here.
I'll be surprised if Vaarsuvius doesn't suffer some form of What Have I Done after the Splice ends.

To sum it up, while the deed was evil, it gives us little to go on with about how V's character will develop from here. And that's what makes it so suspenseful.

Prospero7

2009-03-20, 05:53 PM

Wow. I've been reading this comic strip for years and this is one of the few times my jaw actually dropped in surprise. I definitely did not see that coming even after playing D&D for 25 years and expecting the unexpected. :smalleek:

DrivinAllNight

2009-03-20, 05:57 PM

Can the ABD and all her kin plan something from the afterlife?

Xondoure

2009-03-20, 05:59 PM

Everyone seems to think V has just surpassed Xycon in evilness. V has shown little pleasure in her fit of rage, and in case you have all forgotten Xykons ambition is to turn the entire world into his helpless slaves and destroy all good in the world. Not quite Xycon, but definitly evil.
Still, with this much power, what's to stop V from taking permanent control of this power and making the ones who sold it to Ver bow at Ver feet.

Wolf_Plague

2009-03-20, 06:02 PM

Technically all dragons are related to Tiamat. By blood. Um.

I wouldn't worry about that. I mean, one Tiamat more, one less...

Sutremaine

2009-03-20, 06:02 PM

It tastes like victory. And chicken.
What doesn't, these days?

Xondoure

2009-03-20, 06:05 PM

hamishspence

2009-03-20, 06:05 PM

well, people eat some animals (and wear the skins), plus, adventurers wear the skins of dragons (which Mama dragon complained about), so, it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise for an adventurer to eat some of a dragon.

Execution is (by Fiendish Codex 2) a Lawful act. Whether it is Evil or not depends on circumstances, if it is what people would tend to call Murder (execution for jaywalking, execution on trumped-up charges) it would be Evil.

By BoED, under most circumstances, its not Evil (assuming crime was "serious crime" like murder or treason, and person was guilty)

Jammeez

2009-03-20, 06:06 PM

...

...

...

:smallfrown:

Sebastian

2009-03-20, 06:06 PM

Unless, of course, V "protects" his/her family from retribution by preemptively disintegrating them.

Gaah! The more I think about it, the worse it gets!

and then he bind their souls so some gem that he will always bring with hir, so they will be safe forever.

It is the most practical course of action if you think about it, as long as they are alive someone could kill them, or they could have an incident or just die of old age, but with them soul bonded there will nothing to worry about. And they will be always stay together.

Porthos

2009-03-20, 06:11 PM

Well, one thing that makes this interesting is the strongly emphasized Alignment Feedback of the Soul Splice. We know from the comic that the souls are influencing Vaarsuvius, and that V's ability to keep the Soul Splice under control directly depends on his strength of will. And V's last shreds of confidence and willpower were completely stripped away in 634 - earlier, he could at least still hold on to the notion that he was doing this for noble reasons.
Thus, we don't know how much of it is V and how much is the evil souls - in fact, since it is NOT in V's style to laugh, cackle and smile while casting spells (or laugh at all, actually), you could make a strong case that anything V does now does not really reflect V's morality here.
I'll be surprised if Vaarsuvius doesn't suffer some form of What Have I Done after the Splice ends.

Absolutely. Where V goes after the Soul Splice is over should be most interesting. And I am (mostly) arguing that V is currently acting evil and is not irrevocably evil for all time

However, as someone on another board said, many places will hold one responsible for their actions if they knowingly get drunk/high/spaced out/whatver, even though they are not "technically" in control anymore. That's because they chose to get drunk/high/spaced out/whatver in the first place. Yeah, there may or may not be extenuating circumstances involved, but as the IFCC pointed out, the whole "sell your soul" idea was V's in the first place (remember, Qarr never brought it up).

So this may very well be a case of, "You paid yourse money, now you takes your chances" type thing. This doesn't stop a Redemption Quest from happening, of course. But it doesn't guarantee it either.

hamishspence

2009-03-20, 06:19 PM

a paladin Falls for evil acts- even if he wasn't "in control" when he did them. Generally, its easier to atone though.

Its not like V has had Dominate cast on him or anything like that. V may be influenced, but not controlled, which would make V culpable for acts.

Military Man

2009-03-20, 06:29 PM

Its not like V has had Dominate cast on him or anything like that. V may be influenced, but not controlled, which would make V culpable for acts.

Yes.

As someone said before, if a man goes into a bar, gets drunk, than stabs another man with a dagger he is still responsible for murder ever though he was drunk, although the Soul Splich is more of a suggestion, V still did it regardless and caused the "Familcide"

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-20, 06:30 PM

A question for the people who argue that this wasn't evil: suppose that the black dragon hadn't been a black dragon? Suppose she was a drow? Or a goblin? Or a mindflayer? Or maybe an elf? Human? Halfling? A sprite? Does it honestly matter which race the family that is slaughtered belongs to?

Maybe V was acting to protect its family. But, as it's been pointed out so far, the spirits in its mind were urging further torture and agony. V agreed. Meaning that it still had the freedom to choose. There was no knife at its back when it cast that spell, that was all V's doing.

Toper

2009-03-20, 06:34 PM

From the distribution of pink lines over the globe, I think we can conclude that Ancient Black Dragon's family is very, very migratory.

(The image also makes it seem like we're not looking at complete genocide, since very large areas are apparently left untouched.)

Lord Seth

2009-03-20, 06:36 PM

AyuVince

2009-03-20, 06:50 PM

Familicide. Riiight. Somewhere in a dark basement, a munchkin gamer has a multiple orgasm.

Is V a Mary Sue character now? Someone mentioned it in a thread before... if I were more familiar with fanfiction theory, I might be able to answer that question. Unfortunately, I am not, so I guess I'll wait for the inevitable discussion. :smallcool:

Sebastian

2009-03-20, 06:51 PM

Trazoi

2009-03-20, 06:57 PM

A thing to consider, with such level of power, why didn't she/he casteda spell that turn all those black dragons alignement to lawful good? Or just erase the ABD memory so she forget everything that happened? It is not like V didn't have other options, she had almost limitless option, he chose to kill. that is what make her evil.
I only vaguely know the rules of P&P D&D, but I don't think V has limitless power (as in "can do whatever V wants"). V cast an epic spell that one of the bound evil souls already knew. These epic spells have to be researched and paid for in advance, and it's exceedingly unlikely that souls that evil would have researched a Mass Family Alignment Shift spell. V can only cast the spells that the combined four of them know, and I'd bet all the custom epic spells veer quite sharply into the "pure evil" category.

Fifty-Eyed Fred

2009-03-20, 07:03 PM

Surely Familicide is just Rich's way of showing how ridiculously powerful the Soul Splice has made V, as well as highlighting V's new evil and hypocrisy?

Lamech

2009-03-20, 07:19 PM

Half dragons are not alweays of the alignment of the dragon parent- check Monster Manual.

Chromatic dragons can vary in the level of their evil, from "as malevolent as a fiend of hell" to the kind that has a truce with the neighbours, and is a potential ally against worse evils- check Draconomicon.
Err... no? I can't link to the relevent part of the MM, but the hypertext srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)has this fancy quote

Alignment
Same as the dragon variety.

So umm... black half dragons are "always chaotic evil".

Also interestingly didn't the mama dragon say she was with her family again? This may mean evil people don't actually have a crappy afterlife. Happyness for Belkar, and Xykon and co.

Sebastian

2009-03-20, 07:22 PM

Could someone explain to me how Familicide can even work? It seems way, WAY overpowered even for an epic spell if it can instantly wipe out *every* relative dragon of that one, apparently even bypassing their save.

V is something like 75+ level right now, probably more. That some stupid level of powerful even for D&D, waaaay beyond Epic level and going into "crazy bat**** powerful" level.

1stEd.Thief

2009-03-20, 07:35 PM

Whoa.........

Sebastian

2009-03-20, 08:18 PM

I only vaguely know the rules of P&P D&D, but I don't think V has limitless power (as in "can do whatever V wants"). V cast an epic spell that one of the bound evil souls already knew. These epic spells have to be researched and paid for in advance, and it's exceedingly unlikely that souls that evil would have researched a Mass Family Alignment Shift spell. V can only cast the spells that the combined four of them know, and I'd bet all the custom epic spells veer quite sharply into the "pure evil" category.

What about dominate monster? or polymorph any object (turn her into something harmless? or charm monster? (maybe made permanent if it is possible) or the dear old, abused mindrape? (don't you think at least one of those souls know it?)

or something like this

"Dominate monster"

"wait a minute here, dear."

*Wish for an helmet of opposite alignment*

"here, wear this, and don't resist its magic"

voilà, now the ABD is V's Best Friend Forever (or at least she will not try to kill hir or hirs family, or anyone else, hopefully. And her family will not try to revenge her because she is not dead, actually it is more probable they will try to kill her themselves)

Sebastian

2009-03-20, 08:27 PM

I only vaguely know the rules of P&P D&D, but I don't think V has limitless power (as in "can do whatever V wants"). V cast an epic spell that one of the bound evil souls already knew. These epic spells have to be researched and paid for in advance, and it's exceedingly unlikely that souls that evil would have researched a Mass Family Alignment Shift spell. V can only cast the spells that the combined four of them know, and I'd bet all the custom epic spells veer quite sharply into the "pure evil" category.

What about dominate monster? or polymorph any object (turn her into something harmless)? or charm monster? (maybe made permanent if it is possible) or the dear old, abused mindrape? (don't you think at least one of those souls know it?)

or something like this

"Dominate monster"

"wait a minute here, dear."

*Wish for an helmet of opposite alignment*

"here, wear this, and don't resist its magic"

voilà, now the ABD is V's Best Friend Forever (or at least she will not try to kill hir or hirs family, or anyone else, hopefully. And her family will not try to revenge her because she is not dead, actually it is more probable they will try to kill her themselves)

harami2000

2009-03-20, 08:32 PM

No matter how you look at it, systematic execution is lawful evil. That does not mean it won't create chaos. But that is the scale of the attack not its alignment.
*g*. I wish Gary were still around so I could throw this example his way. Pick a creature, any creature, and kill all its relatives no-save at a whim regardless of their backgrounds, whether they have any knowledge of each other and without any respect to the effect that has on overall order is "lawful"? Heh... I'll stick to the traditional definitions IMC since that reads more like dancing across a minefield. :smallsmile:

Anyhow... ^^

Viscount_Grey

2009-03-20, 08:37 PM

David Argall

2009-03-20, 08:43 PM

The odds are very good this was a dragon in the darkness, not a monster in the darkness. Dragons do like dark caves after all.

Porthos

2009-03-20, 08:44 PM

OK, so I've just trawled through 11 pages of repeated arguments about why V is or is not evil for that deed.... and it would appear that I am the only person to spot the possible death of the Creature in the Darkness...

Nope, your not. It's been mentioned once or twice. But it's the wrong color eyes (green not yellow).

So nothing to worry about here. :smallsmile:

Schaffer1979

2009-03-20, 08:45 PM

I can't help but feel that we have canonical evidence here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html

which suggests that without regard to what Rich might or might not believe in terms of gaming (yes I have read his articles and agree with many of the gaming precepts he suggests) that in the world of OOTS killing a black dragon without question is considered both lawful and good.

Note the person who supports this evidence is Miko, a character of lawful good alignment who had not become a fallen paladin yet. We also have Roy, also a lawful good entity, supporting the death of a black dragon and keeping it's horder. Furthermore, when Roy has his meeting with the servant of the heavens who admits him to heaven, no question is raised about the killing of the young adult black dragon. So far, we have no canonical evidence that anyone good objects to the killing of a creature that could be defined as always or mostly evil by the MM.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that the gods themselves would be aware that the young adult black dragon was defending its home and hoarde at the time of its death. No one person in a position to administer judgment so far in comic has been seen to object to the OOTS actions.

Based on previous canonical support, I would rule that V killing 63 black dragons in one go is no more evil than acting as an adventuring party systematically wiping out a black dragon one by one for it's hoard. Whatever else might be said, OOTS is acknowledged through the breaking of the fourth wall by the main characters to be a story based off a gaming system (to say nothing of the fact that we are all, as readers, perfectly aware ourselves that OOTS is a parody with a good storyline as well).

That being said, I cannot rule V's actions as evil, especially considering he is making a pre-emptive strike to protect his family. Even using Rich's logic about bad guys not all being inherently evil, that it's a matter of perception (supported by Redcloak's canonical moments in game as well), one could say that the intent to protect others defines an act as not evil.

The ABD clearly made known her actions she intended for V's family were to deliver unto him suffering and retributive punishment. V's actions from the get-go were based on a motivation to protect those V loved. Prior to Familicide being cast, V stated he was trying to safeguard his family from another instance of vengeance from the black dragon's relatives, for which he already had solid evidence that black dragons thought that way. He has no other history established to infer that the dragons would react in a different manner, having met no other black dragons, and he knew by the ABD's own admission she had relatives.

I still maintain that V's actions are neutral in that he wasn't committing an evil act nor was he committing a good act. He was trying to build a safeguard. The fact that evil provided him tools to do so does not make him any more evil than a person wielding a gun crafted by an evil artisan.

I maintain that V's actions fall under grounds for lawful neutral alignment. No where have I seen in OOTS that is unlawful to kill black dragons, supported again by canonical evidence by someone of the most lawful nature I have seen yet, the Sapphire Guard Miko, in the OOTS comics.

Now, in personal game terms, were I the GM, I would use this story to drive NPCS against the PC with consequences. It makes for an epic, grand game. I would not rule the gamer's character to be evil on this one instance. And so far, I have not seen any acts by V that make me think evil. He is not doing any of this for selfish gratification. What he has done he has done for others and what I interpret in his dreams prior to the soul splice is someone who feels miserably aware that they failed, despite their arcane prowess, to protect those they love. As for his killing of Kubota, well, I often in real life feel we could end some problems by sniping certain individuals early. I do not consider myself evil but practical. Perhaps one life ended is evil but I weigh that against the mitigation of suffering of others through countless moments of their lives, which seems to me to be the greater good in the end. But that's my opinion.

Mr. Pin

2009-03-20, 08:49 PM

Look, what our girl Vaarsuvius just did, far from committing genocide, was wipe out about 50 or so agents of evil. Was one of them good or neutral? According to my rulebooks, there's a one-in-a-couplehundredthousand chance. But think of all the good things She's just done; the living bunnies, the unraped horsies, the safe adventurers and townsfolk that won't have to sacrifice any virgins (or possibly virgin horses). V had the power to make life a lot happier for a lot of innocent, probably good people, and a lot shorter for a bunch of murdering, plundering draconic scum. She took it.

She's an adventurer; it's the world she lives in.

Vitriolic Tonic

2009-03-20, 08:50 PM

Is anyone willing to bet that Vaarsuvius' family ends up being very distantly related to one of those dragons somehow?

Mik Sneakyfeet

2009-03-20, 08:55 PM

I have one thing to say. You better work

WHOA

V done gone flipped off the deep end.

Eternal Kanus

2009-03-20, 09:02 PM

So, random theory time:

This is the first epic spell. Assuming that the other two spliced souls have an epic spell of comparable power each, what would they be? The first is a conjurer who was stated to have summoned armies. Suppose Tiamat, taking this act as a sign of war, gets her followers, focused by the Oracle, to attack Vaarsuvius. To defend herself, V uses another epic spell to summon an army to fight off the dragon hordes, which works- and starts destroying the army.

Tiamat herself then descends onto the battlefield to do battle with this unholy force of destruction, and V proceeds to pull out the last epic spell in her arsenal. Now what would a hyper-chaotic sorcerer create as an epic spell? I propose this: A spell that warps reality. A spell that tears open a whole in the mortal realm, and into the prison dimension of the Snarl. V will create a new rift, and the Snarl will strike down Tiamat, and the world is in a severe state of chaos.

Marzie

2009-03-20, 09:05 PM

This is not going to be my most erudite moment, but

Hoooooly crap. :smalleek:

werewolfjay

2009-03-20, 09:09 PM

wow :smalleek:
i think v just wiped out a whole branch of the black dragon family tree and if its a necromancy spell could all those dead dragons become undead???

Silverain

2009-03-20, 09:15 PM

1) Was there a chance that ANY dragon affected by this spell resisted it? I wonder...

2) Can you say "scroll of extinction"? (Or was it "scroll of genocide"? You know, the thing in Nethack.)

3) wow, it appears that an ancient black dragon can spawn a hell of a lot of relatives. Except ... this dragon indicated that her son was her only living relative. So how many distant cousins did that spell kill?

4) If there are any black dragons left alive, they're ALL gonna be angry. In fact, all the other dragons may be upset, too, since V is now a threat to their entire species. The evil dragons will take it personally and want revenge, and the good dragons will be offended at V's actions and want to destroy the threat.

5) Tiamat's gonna notice, too. Bet your ass. This could even lead to interplanar war (if half the dragon race gets involved, and the fiends step in to back up V ... I'm wondering whether reality is gonna get some new holes ripped in it soon.)

6) What would V's reaction be if his spouse decided she doesn't love him any more? His kids are already terrified of him now...

7) Wow, look out, Xykon. You're no longer the most bad-ass Evil necromancer in the OotS world. And you're a lot dumber than V is.

8) p.s. Why does everybody assume that the three Epic spellcasters' levels all stack? Wouldn't it make more sense for their experience points to stack instead? After all, three 3rd-level spellcasters aren't as good as one 9th-level one. So V's effective level might only be, oh, 40 or so, instead of 60+. Still enough to kill a moderate-sized god, however.

Malik

2009-03-20, 09:15 PM

That can be summed up in a few words.

Totally Epically Awesome!

whitelaughter

2009-03-20, 09:20 PM

No. The spell indiscriminately killed at least three half-dragons as well, who are most definitely not evil by definition.
Actually they are; half-dragons take the alignment of their draconic parent.

Still, the fiends have set this up subtly. When V cast create greater Undead,I was thinking "no you idiot, you'll lose control of her the moment the splice ends, useless as a defender..."

The fiends specified: people killed stay dead. Ongoing spell effects end.
Therefore, the only sure way to create permanent effects is by killing. But AMD will have friends and allies etc; they need to be killed as well. Familicide was the only way to be sure....

And there's not a lot Tiamat can do about it at the moment because V is back 'home' in the northern continent; remember how Thor couldn't intervene in the Southern?

Awesome comic. And we have a map!

whitelaughter

2009-03-20, 09:21 PM

Nothing good can come out of tipping the balance like that.

Arrgh! Dragonlance taint! Kill it with fire!

harami2000

2009-03-20, 09:23 PM

Whatever else might be said, OOTS is acknowledged through the breaking of the fourth wall by the main characters to be a story based off a gaming system.
Raymond Feist's Midkemia (http://www.waynesbooks.com/midkemia.html) for one... just not in convenient bitesized pages. The tradition of reporting actual campaigns with parallel reader feedback bouncing to-and-fro (fourth wall well and truly broken) goes back a long way in D&D; e.g. John Van De Graaf's The Ryth Chronicle from c.1975, Mark Swanson's Gorree in A&E from 1976 onwards.

abb3w

2009-03-20, 09:34 PM

Well.. we can rule out lawful, anyway.

I've some fairly abstract reasoning to claim it was at least a neutral and probably a good act, too, but I'm not finished with the paper to justify that. :smallyuk:

Of course, if the next panel shows Tiamat making a successful save... V is going to be unhappy.

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-20, 09:35 PM

You know...if V had murdered an entire family of elves, which are usually chaotic good, then would there be such an outcry to defend him?

HappyEngineer

2009-03-20, 09:36 PM

As many people have said, the way in which V took that action and the comments surrounding the action surely indicate intentions that are very evil.

However, let's switch this around. Imagine a paladin who seeks to exterminate evil from the world. Imagine that this paladin believes that small amounts of collateral damage are acceptable. If that paladin had this power, surely they could use it on all evil races (goblins, hobgoblins, non-metallic dragons (are they called prismatic dragons?), etc., while still retaining a good alignment?

What if 20% of the dead were good while 80% were evil. Wouldn't that work within the good moral sphere of that paladin?

Note that this would not work in the real world because there is no such thing as a mostly evil race or even a mostly evil extended family. A two generation separation is enough to allow for wildly differing moral beliefs in any family. Heck, many families don't have consistent moral beliefs between parent and child.

But, in the world of D&D, it's entirely possible to know that at least 80% of a particular race are extremely evil. In such a world it seems possible to me that an action like this could be considered a good act just so long as the intentions of the user were to rid the world of evil.

Sadly, V's actions were not good. Therefore this was a wildly evil act on his part.

Zeku

2009-03-20, 09:38 PM

I realize that I'm ages behind the curve here, but this is the first time the forum has been working well for me.

The 3 fiends implied that he would maintain the power for as long as his will could maintain it. This was the lie. The link isn't going to be difficult to maintain at all. He's never going to let go of the power.

This means that he will accumulate years of service to the fiends, and the longer he holds on, the more difficult it will be to pay up.

eilandesq

2009-03-20, 09:41 PM

"I concur."

No blaming your Dark Passengers for this one, V.--you own it. You might want to blow up that ABD head before she goes all Glaurung on you and tells your family in detail exactly what you did.

MickJay

2009-03-20, 09:54 PM

V had mixed intentions, protect his family - good to neutral and revenge - neutral to evil.

Results of his actions - current good to evil ratio in the world shifted a little more to "good" (even if one or two of the killed creatures were not evil).

If it wasn't for the fact that each action V performs extends the period he is going to serve the fiends, and for the enormous scale of the spell, how would V's actions be any different from those of your average adventurer? If paladins can preemptively wipe out a goblin village (where they have no guarantee that all of its inhabitants are evil) and not fall for that, why would getting rid of a few dozen extremly powerful, evil beings be worse?

harami2000

2009-03-20, 09:59 PM

However, let's switch this around. Imagine a paladin who seeks to exterminate evil from the world. Imagine that this paladin believes that small amounts of collateral damage are acceptable. If that paladin had this power, surely they could use it on all evil races (goblins, hobgoblins, non-metallic dragons (are they called prismatic dragons?), etc., while still retaining a good alignment?
Are paladins permitted to believe in unknown quantities of collateral damage.
If it's deemed unchivalric to backstab someone without warning, nuking them from afar without any chance to repent/convert from ones evil ways is probably pushing the envelope.

What if 20% of the dead were good while 80% were evil. Wouldn't that work within the good moral sphere of that paladin?
I'll stick with a "no" on that.

Note that this would not work in the real world because there is no such thing as a mostly evil race or even a mostly evil extended family. A two generation separation is enough to allow for wildly differing moral beliefs in any family. Heck, many families don't have consistent moral beliefs between parent and child.
Yep; which is one reason I'd personally label that as a chaotic action regardless of the species of the target.

souldrinker

2009-03-20, 10:00 PM

First time writer...

That being said i have a couple of things that i need to be said.

1.
V's Actions were evil, pure and utter evil, lawful and chaotic had nothing to do with it...i don't what brought about this lawful/chaotic argument, But you have to look at it this way, V who is True neutral has received 3 other personalities...each one an aspect of the Evil alignment...thus it could be concluded the V's actions would be Neutral Evil, because he/she is do evil for evil sake, regardless of what spells he/she casts. (also the other extremes in alignment should balance each other out) So far there has been no argument on the different voices so it could be assumed that they are acting on their common alignment aspect...which of course is evil.

2.
I don't know what the deities the giant has in his setting, but if he is using the Greyhawk deities for dragons, Tiamat is the least of V's worries...i would be more concerned with Io. That's right, Io.

Lord Seth

2009-03-20, 10:01 PM

1) Was there a chance that ANY dragon affected by this spell resisted it? I wonder...I'm hoping so, because otherwise it makes no sense. If V has the power to kill off that many dragons at once when they're nowhere near him/her, it doesn't make sense that V had to resort to that whole "kill from within" thing for the dragon rather than doing the simple thing and just blasting it into oblivion.

But the thing is, to put it in plain terms, let's examine this. I don't think in Dungeons & Dragons there is an instant death spell that can't be avoided in any way and bypasses all saves. Because that's, er, a game breaker of massive proportions. But that's just for one; we're talking about something hitting 20+ targets at once the world over. That seems to be going beyond a game breaker into just plain absurdity.

2) Can you say "scroll of extinction"? (Or was it "scroll of genocide"? You know, the thing in Nethack.)Scroll of genocide. In any NetHack game, as soon as I get my hands on a blessed scroll of genocide, I use it to get rid of all the liches. I hate liches in that game...HATE THEM! DIE LICHES! DIE! DIE! DIE! DIE! DIE!

...sorry. I just have extreme hatred for an enemy that destroys armor if you don't have magic resistance, curses your items, teleports away if its health gets low even on no-teleport levels, and summons nasty monsters.

I always figured that the scroll of genocide only affects beings in the Mazes of Menace (the game) and left things outside of it untouched, though.

sealemon

2009-03-20, 10:03 PM

If someone would have told I would have EVER had such a strong reaction to ANY webcomic, much less what was at one time a simple parody of 3.5 D&D, I would have scoffed. I mean, come ON, this is a comic with stick figures!

Holy crap.

What an amazing strip. Good job.

whodat009

2009-03-20, 10:06 PM

V has finally surpassed Belker on the "Best OOTS characters" scale. And for the record, after getting rid of the black dragons, V needs to now bind mama dragon's soul, just like she was going to do to the kids.

An eye for an eye makes the world go blind... unless I nuke your !@& first. :smallcool:

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-20, 10:12 PM

Baywolfe

2009-03-20, 10:19 PM

Apologies, if this has already been asked. Which of the 12 Gods do the Elves NOT believe in?

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-20, 10:21 PM

Actually, I think it was mentioned that elves have their own gods.

Krenn

2009-03-20, 10:21 PM

interesting.....

personally, i would describe this spell as lawfull neutral, assuming your opponent starts the blood feud.

hypothetical Situation: a clan of close relatives, with high internal loyalty, and which are thoroughly evil beings have sworn that their entire clan, including their own unborn, will dedicate their lives to the destruction of you and your extended family. they do not have a legitimate reason to involve your family, but they are anyway.

this clan has an estabilished track record of carrying through on these threats. one of their more recent and famous blood feuds lasted SEVEN GENERATIONS, against a similiarly evil and clannish opponent, and ended with the opposing clan being slaughtered to the last pregnant woman and infant.

Lawfull good response: Kill every adult male of the enemy clan, every adult female under arms, and any remaining members of the clan who either refuse to surrender or are in a leadership position.

Then, scatter the surviving woman and children to the four corners of the earth, so that they are broken as a clan, and incapable of ever re-uniting, preserving clan memories, or otherwise pursuing vengeance.

Lawfull Neutral response: Kill every member of the clan. period.

Lawfull evil response: Carpet-nuke the entire region the clan resides in.

The rule of thumb here is: if it looks like an enemy army, acts like an enemy army, as is as threatening as an enemy army, we will treat it EXACTLY like an enemy army. Clans that ACT like cohesive armies, get TREATED like cohesive armies.

Now, as to whether or not the Ancient Black Dragon had a sufficiently organized clan as to constitute such a threat... that's an unknown. I'd say that V's use of the spell, IN THIS SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE, is probably Evil. If V had waited until two or more A.B.D's had tried to act on the blood feud, or if V had specific knowledge that this clan of ABD had fought blood feuds in the past, then it would merely be neutral.

Porthos

2009-03-20, 10:23 PM

Alright, let's talk about intentions for a sec.

Suppose some Bat-Boop Crazy Wizard out there suddenly becomes convinced that an entire town is going to attack his children.

So he nukes them all from orbit to "protect" his kids.

But while a couple of the people in the town may have wanted to (potentially) harm his kids, the vast majority of them didn't.

Was Bat-Boop Crazy Wizard's intentions "good"? Or was he in fact, Bat-Boop Crazy?

Now let's shift this slightly. Let's say it's not a village, but a Prison Colony. And lets say their alignments run from Neutral to Slightly Evil to Majorly Evil. And let's say that one or two of the prisoners might want to harm Bat-Boop Crazy Wizard's kids. Now Bat-Boop Crazy Wizard decideds to Nuke the Prison Colony, even though the vast majority of the people there have never even heard of his kids and will never cause them any harm.

Is what Bat-Boop Crazy Wizard doing Good? Or is it, oh I dunno? Eeeeevil.

One can think they are doing good things, and yet be massively Evil. Or have we all forgotten about that crazy Fallen Paladin in Ravenloft (Elena Faith-hold)?

Sure one can make the comment that going into a cave and killing dragons one by one isn't evil. Heck, I've made the same argument. But guess what? In alignment debates, much like The Law, SIZE AND SCALE MATTERS. In other words, yes, it does matter if you indiscriminately kill 1000 people at once, versus one at a time. And it certainly matters if you kill them for less than honorable reasons.

Or would it be OK if some Epic Wizard out there designed a spell that indiscriminately eraticated Evil from a planet? Judging by some of the responses of this thread, I'm guessing that some people would say: Yes.

MickJay

2009-03-20, 10:31 PM

Alair

2009-03-20, 10:31 PM

... I was fully expecting V to damn herself with her new power but not like this.

That was utterly monstrous act. I don't think V can come back from it. Ever.

Kyle Voltti

2009-03-20, 10:33 PM

You know.... I'm the kind of of guy who figures that somehow the Famlicide spell will directly kill V's family. that somehow the Black Dragon was a blood relation of V's mate and thus V's Children

keybounce

2009-03-20, 10:37 PM

Wow V not cool. Reminds me of:

"I didn't kill just one Husnock, or a hundred, or a thousand. I killed them all. All Husnock, everywhere."

obscure reference, I know

I got it.

"Read a scroll of genocide. Wiped out all @'s".
===

Re: Black dragons being evil or not: We've been told that in Rich's universe, metalic dragons are good, colored dragons are evil. I think the line was: "Dragons: Color coded for your convenience". (Ahh: 207)

Now, think about family, related, etc:

Go back 30 or 40 generations, and everyone of european descent is related. Go back far enough, and you run into the common male or female ancestor of all people.

Dragons? Evolution is still at work here. Today there might be 10 different dragon colors; far enough back, you've got one. Farther back, all reptiles. Farther back, ...

How far back does "Family" go for this spell?
===

Belkar and "I'm nastier than you": We know Belkar will die. We don't yet know who or what kills him.
===

What makes you think that all the relatives of the ABD are black? What would you get if a green dragon and a black dragon had children? Yes, I know that at Dragcave you only get one or the other, but in this world, who knows?

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-20, 10:38 PM

The results of one's actions in D&D, in general, count for more than the intentions; what V had done would have been far more evil if the creatures involved were not (all or almost all) evil, but they were.

Inflicting pain is inherent to revenge, and revenge in D&D can be evil or neutral. In V's case, the intent made it evil, I agree.

That's just opening the door to all kinds of atrocities though. If it's okay to murder dozens of dragons just because they exist and might one day threaten one's family, then how is that different from murdering dozens of humans that the murderer considers evil for the same reason? And these dragons had no reason to even know that V existed.

I think BoVD says something about inflicting pain for its own sake, but I don't remember the pages.

EDIT: Hey, I just remembered where I heard the Husnock quote from! That was a case of revenge for a single person too...at least that guy was horrified by what he did.

Shott

2009-03-20, 10:45 PM

Brutal. Great comic Giant!

harami2000

2009-03-20, 10:48 PM

personally, i would describe this spell as lawfull neutral, assuming your opponent starts the blood feud.

hypothetical Situation: a clan of close relatives, with high internal loyalty, and which are thoroughly evil beings have sworn that their entire clan, including their own unborn, will dedicate their lives to the destruction of you and your extended family. they do not have a legitimate reason to involve your family, but they are anyway.
IMHO the trouble being that's "hypothetical" and the spell is not called "Finish Blood Feud", "Familicide (evil only)" or anything of that ilk.
Sure; it might be possible to ameliorate the innate effect of a non-neutral spell by careful research (+ praying for forgiveness in advance for any "mistakes", etc.), but pressing the big red button in a heat-of-the-moment situation most definitely doesn't qualify for that. Inherent CE enacted in an evil manner (there was not even a "blood feud" in a familial sense as the ABD was dead before it could kill any of V's family) without any regard for life, law or order on a huge scale.

02/ymmv :smallsmile:

Porthos

2009-03-20, 10:49 PM

EDIT: Hey, I just remembered where I heard the Husnock quote from! That was a case of revenge for a single person too...at least that guy was horrified by what he did.

If ya gonna quote, might as well quote from the classics. :smallwink:

(yes I got the reference as well)

bluewind95

2009-03-20, 11:10 PM

Wow... that was truly brutal. I kind of wish V hadn't gone down this road, but we'll see what happens.

Krenn

2009-03-20, 11:11 PM

IMHO the trouble being that's "hypothetical" and the spell is not called "Finish Blood Feud", "Familicide (evil only)" or anything of that ilk.
Sure; it might be possible to ameliorate the innate effect of a non-neutral spell by careful research (+ praying for forgiveness in advance for any "mistakes", etc.), but pressing the big red button in a heat-of-the-moment situation most definitely doesn't qualify for that. Inherent CE enacted in an evil manner (there was not even a "blood feud" in a familial sense as the ABD was dead before it could kill any of V's family) without any regard for life, law or order on a huge scale.

02/ymmv :smallsmile:

I AGREE with you. Use of the spell, IF WARRANTED, is Lawfull neutral. Use of the Spell WITHOUT DETERMING WHETHER IT IS NEEDFULL, is Evil.

So in this case, V is evil, but if circumstances had been slightly different, V could have done the same thing and only been Lawfull neutral.

From the bottom of my previous post:

Now, as to whether or not the Ancient Black Dragon had a sufficiently organized clan as to constitute such a threat... that's an unknown. I'd say that V's use of the spell, IN THIS SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE, is probably Evil. If V had waited until two or more A.B.D's had tried to act on the blood feud, or if V had specific knowledge that this clan of ABD had fought blood feuds in the past, then it would merely be neutral.

lexcorp026

2009-03-20, 11:38 PM

Forgive me if this has been asked already. Do we have confirmation that the dragons shown being killed are actually Black Dragons.

I noticed the differing colors of wings for the various dragons which seemed somewhat to match to their environments around them. I was wondering if the illustrations of dragons within OOTS recolored their bodies, or if the black scales was a common theme to all evil dragons and the wings/eyes determined it's actual type.

Also I find it odd that V shapechanged into a Pink Dragon. I don't recall that specific subtype in my books. It was the first time I honestly looked at V and started to think Female.

Mik Sneakyfeet

2009-03-20, 11:38 PM

I got it.
Dragons? Evolution is still at work here. Today there might be 10 different dragon colors; far enough back, you've got one. Farther back, all reptiles. Farther back, ...

How far back does "Family" go for this spell?

Reptiles, you say?

I know a certain pointy-eared mage who was once a lizard.

DoctorJest

2009-03-20, 11:41 PM

So... how much XP does V get for that anyways?

Martok

2009-03-20, 11:43 PM

Holy!
Crap!
:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
QFT.

This is just....damn. :eek:

Cabeza

2009-03-20, 11:44 PM

This is brutal! This whacked me hard! Watching lots of dragons die!... It's just one of the images I don't like to see... I really dont like to see that! :smalleek:

Nai

2009-03-20, 11:46 PM

(Registered just for this)

Hoo boy, big epic spell going off! I really, really hope Tiamat notices...

Also, just a thought, but doesn't V know the oracle told the ABD that he killed her son? Maybe...

V will go see the oracle next, ignoring his family's non-threatening injuries, and remember how the oracle always seems to have the right magic item in his robe? I'm seeing 2 possibilities...

1. He gets rid of the soul splice or does some other detriment to V.

2. He somehow permanently bonds the souls to V(until he/she dies), so he/she will have to spend all hir time trying to delay death.

Anyone?

malakim2099

2009-03-20, 11:53 PM

Oh, and to people claiming this is a good act.

Voice #1: The pain ended too soon.
Voice #2: We have only begun to bring misery.
Voice #3: There is still so much we can do.

V: I concur. Create Greater Undead.

V is not wanting justice. V is not looking to protect their family, though that's a nice justification.

V is, by their own words, looking to inflict as much pain on Momma Dragon as possible. That makes it evil.

And they're gonna be spending a lot of time with the IFCC when they die, regardless of how long they hold onto the Soul Splice. Your damnation ticket is punched, sir/madam! :smalltongue:

(Oh, and re: momma dragon being with her husband and kid in the afterlife... it's Tiamat's realm, and Tiamat tends to treat her fallen worshippers decently... at least the dragon ones.)

Smoke_Rulz

2009-03-20, 11:57 PM

NONCURSED SCROLL OF GENOCIDE AS A SPELL

I'm stunned. I sat here speechless after I read the comic. This is such a HUGE event that it's gotta have some sort of consequence down the road.

Lord Seth

2009-03-21, 12:33 AM

I got it.

"Read a scroll of genocide. Wiped out all @'s".I'm almost entirely certain that you cannot genocide "@" in NetHack.

xyzchyx

2009-03-21, 12:34 AM

How did the dragon's spirit get called back from the afterlife? No spell, no matter how powerful, can do that against the creature's wishes. That's even explicitly in the rules. "A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis. (PHB)"

Of course that and the fact that there's nowhere to be found in the rules that the life suffused into the undead created by such magics actually comes from the original spirit anyways. It's just their body, not their soul.

Wolfram

2009-03-21, 12:48 AM

I do believe that this is the first time that I've actually found myself honestly horrified by something I saw in a webcomic. And considering that OOTS was the one to do it, you can count me doubly surprised.:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Maybe you should read Something Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net/) then!

Ridureyu

2009-03-21, 12:50 AM

That's just opening the door to all kinds of atrocities though. If it's okay to murder dozens of dragons just because they exist and might one day threaten one's family, then how is that different from murdering dozens of humans that the murderer considers evil for the same reason? And these dragons had no reason to even know that V existed.

This is my third version of this reply, trying to find a statement that isn't rules-baiting. Every time I agree with this post and allude to the real world, it's bad.

I've got it!! V is just pulling an Adrian Veidt, if Veidt sent a ton of Squids to Russia and completely wiped out the country.

rosebud

2009-03-21, 12:55 AM

- Responsibility: Is V responsible for the act?

Yes. If V was not in control of the splice, the splice would cease and the spell would not have been cast.

- Alignment: What is the nature of the act?

I'm a slightly irked by claims that call it the greatest evil (because it killed a lot of innocents) or that call it net good (because it killed evil creatures).

It has not been shown to be genocide; it is called familicide for a reason. It kills the family, not the race. They are not the same thing. While often ineffective, this has happened often historically, and parallels to mid-20th century genocides are inappropriate comparisons. Nor does it even rise to the level of Xykon's actions. Xykon is risking the very fabric of existence. V is merely risking several dozen earthly lives. Even if V killed every Black dragon and half black dragon, it would not imperil all existence. (Accepting the offer and possibly tipping the balance of good and evil was still the a greater harm than this.)

Personally, I consider it an evil act done "for all the wrong reasons". And, yes, like many others, I think it will have profound repercussions.

For starters, I do not think V's family will be long for this mortal world. Whether due to rejection or some other manner, I think V will end up killing <Other Spouse> and the children. And it will be after that point that the splice will break.

Alternately, this much magic cannot go unchecked. V's master might intervene, leading to an epic battle. Or the gods (who seem pretty disinterested and lazy most of the time so far with the exception of Thor) may intervene.

The after effects should be far more interesting. Depending on what results, V might have a redemptive quest. Herakles, after all, killed his family in a fit of goddess-induced madness and went on to greatness performing the twelve labours to expiate his sins.

- Oracle: Should the oracle have said more?

No. He offers one question with one answer. It is possible he did not even look into the future to see the result of the quest, but it is clear that whatever he might have said failed to have done anything.

- Telekenisis: What did it do?

Telekenisis, moving from afar. It removed the knives binding <Other Parent> to the tree.

- Hoards: Are they there for the taking?

Nah, some other monster will take their place.

Lord_Drayakir

2009-03-21, 12:56 AM

On one hand, I do like dragons.

On the other, I do like evil wizards.

Um. Go evil wizards!!! Seriously, that was way messed up, and too powerful.

Also, Rich, if you'll actually read this- the font is too hard to discern. It's a bit iffy, if you catch my drift.

But in any case, great comic. And it does show a prime example from the BoVD.

Ridureyu

2009-03-21, 12:58 AM

of course[/b] they're evil. If you squint, you might say killing off immediate family members to stop the cycle of revenge might be good. Shaya Right.

But their families? And their families' families? And their families' families' familes?
...

Let me put it another way. Let's say you want to make sure that your child can never be harmed in a village. So you go out and murder each and every person in said village. Now no one from that village can possibly hurt your child.

Nope. That's pure lawful good. If you disagree with this, then you're evil. Anyway, I'm gonna go Lawful Good my neighbors. They make too much noise at night:smallbiggrin:

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 01:00 AM

Could someone explain to me how Familicide can even work? It seems way, WAY overpowered even for an epic spell if it can instantly wipe out *every* relative dragon of that one, apparently even bypassing their save.

Not necessarily bypassing the save (V's very highly epic, apparently, and Black dragons are not even Epic monsters).

But your gut feeling is correct - such a spell would have an incredibly high Spellcraft DC to cast. Let's look into it a little.

Lemme see... the Contact seed to contact related dragons (DC 23), +100 DC to contact the 100 closest related, the Slay seed to add 2d4 negative levels (DC 25), +80 DC to add 20d4 more negative levels, the Dispel Seed to dispel possible protections (19 DC), +20 to the dispel check for +20 DC.

So an Epic Spell that kills the 100 closest family members of the target (the target provides the required familiarity for the spell to work) has a base spellcraft DC of 267. A 30th level caster can easily get up to DC 100 with items/nonepic buffs/feats. So mitigating factors for -167 DC can be backlash 60d6 (-60), 10 minutes of preparation (-20), costly material component (a living or undead member of the family in question, ad hoc -7 DC), 8.000 XP cost (-80).

That is for a spell that is sure to kill even 40 HD creatures (via negative levels) even though they might have protections against death magic. A cheaper spell would use just a death effect and would not dispel possible protections.

1. You forgot to add DCs for additional targets. You'd have to add 10 DC for EACH dragon slain after the first one.
2. You forgot the range. Slay has a range of only 300 feet. Familicide worked all over the world.
3. There was no visible backlash. 60d6 damage would have definitely killed v.
4. The casting time was no more than 1 round, not 10 minutes.

To make an epic death spell that affects the entire world, assuming said world like Earth has a radius of 6300 km = 18900ft, and that no more dragons than shown in the strip were killed, would have a DC of:

Seed: Destroy DC = 29 (seed) + 2 (range 12000ft + 100%) + 600 (60 additional targets) + 100 (+50d6 damage) -5 (specialist school) = DC 726. Without special optimization tricks, that’s a >600 level character we’re talking about.

6,534,000 gp + 261,360 XP to develop. That's doable for a very high level char. But beating a >700 Spellcraft DC? Not possible without some epic optimization.

If we use a different seed, it only gets worse:

Seed: Slay DC = 25 + (2*63 = 126 to increase range to 18900ft) + 600 (60 additional targets) – 5 (specialist school) = 746

And this is WITHOUT the divination required to pinpoint every blood relative, which would jack the DCs further into orbit.

I believe Mr Burlew really went overboard with this one.

Also, Create Greater Undead can't be used to bind the original soul back into the body, unless it's something like the Mummified Creature from Libris Mortis (which it doesn't look anything like). Normally, undead created by spells have either evil spirits or just Negative energy animating them.

Otherwise, bringing back Roy would have been as easy as casting a 3rd level Animate Dead. And Haley/Celia would not be so dismissive of "undead monstrosities".

BUT!! EPIC NECROMANTIC ACTION + GENOCIDE = me like.

Also - Capability to bind souls to undead bodies? = all abilities of the base creature? Epic Undead Horde for V!!

Mik Sneakyfeet

2009-03-21, 01:04 AM

How did the dragon's spirit get called back from the afterlife? No spell, no matter how powerful, can do that against the creature's wishes.

Raise Undead doesn't, if memory serves (I haven't played since 2nd ed), require consent.

Jophes

2009-03-21, 01:09 AM

Personally, being someone who usually roots for the bad guy, I think this is AWESOME. Go go V!

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 01:12 AM

The thing that I keep saying is...V wouldn't have taken other actions if they'd been elves, humans, or unicorns instead of dragons. The alignment of its victims meant nothing in this case.

And you're forgetting. V's other intention was to inflict pain. Which is very evil.

Note that elves, humans and unicorns have in common that none of them have the "always chaotic evil" alignment descriptor. Unlike, say, Black Dragons.

Note also that V's spell, being familicide not genocide, would not have killed all humans, all elves, or all unicorns, if it's material component was the soul of one human, one elf, or one unicorn.

Finally, the "I concur" could have been in response to "There is so much more that we can do", which could then just be V agreeing that V has more spells available to cast in order to accomplish the aim of protecting the spouse and kids. Thus V's intention does not have to be to inflict pain.

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 01:16 AM

*g*. I wish Gary were still around so I could throw this example his way. Pick a creature, any creature, and kill all its relatives no-save at a whim regardless of their backgrounds, whether they have any knowledge of each other and without any respect to the effect that has on overall order is "lawful"? Heh... I'll stick to the traditional definitions IMC since that reads more like dancing across a minefield. :smallsmile:

Anyhow... ^^

The effect on the overall order is quite lawful, as a large number of chaotic beings have just died. The world, on balance, has just become a more lawful place, with the deaths of so many chaotic creatures, some of them quite powerful. All the chaotic actions that would have been done by all of those chaotic dragons will now never be done.

V already had evidence that Black Dragons avenge the deaths of their kin. V had no reason to doubt that other Black Dragons of this family would also have this vengeful trait.

Not checking to make sure could count as evil. It does not count as chaotic.

Stroth

2009-03-21, 01:19 AM

How did the dragon's spirit get called back from the afterlife? No spell, no matter how powerful, can do that against the creature's wishes. That's even explicitly in the rules. "A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis. (PHB)"

Key point in that rule is "A soul cannot be returned to life". It says nothing about forcibly binding the soul into an undead mockery made from it's former body. The entire point of high level necromancy is getting around rules like that to torment and destroy your enemies.

kingshivan

2009-03-21, 01:24 AM

yeah, my reaction was the good old "Holy" followed by everyone's favorite four letter word.

As for the technical difficulties...

I'm not a D&D person by any means (the extent of my depth is the Baldur's Gate games and Icewind Dale 2... I never even played NN, cause of the lack of a 6 character player-created party), so for it to work in my mind I come up with-

V is fused with 3 ultra-evil souls of insanely powerful mages (or mage, necromancer, and cleric, or whatever). While the question would remain, how would that necromancer ever have learned (and perfected) such a spell, V^4's use of it makes sense enough for me. Hells, I'm willing to chalk it up to "tossing insane amount of magical power up into the air and demanding a precisely defined spell to happen".

'Cuz wild magic in Throne of Bhaal was awesome.

(edit- oh what the heck, more reason why I don't think it was too terribly world-changing of a spell, for all its epic awesomeness- there are bonds of blood connecting all those killed black dragons, bonds I have no problem accepting that also involve a connection between souls, so I don't see any problem with V using the one soul as a doorway or proxy for all those connected to it. The only problem I would see is how far back to go in relations... relations to the Nth degree... also I figure, having total control over that dragon's soul in its animated head would give V a measure of power over all kinds of things involved with that soul.... etc etc etc. I'm sure there are TONS of justifications for it that have no relation at all to actual D&D rules :D)

As for the evilness of it, I figure it's nowhere near as evil as the dragoness's intention to bind the souls of V's children to her necromantically to torment for all eternity. Merely killing a bunch of people purely on the basis of being related doesn't quite match that. It's up there with it, sure. But even Xykon's paladin murdering and lich-ness pales to the child-soul-binding-torment, in my book. Personally, I am just glad of ANY avenue in which that did not happen.

as for repercussions, I agree with the need for redemption once the V^4 spell has worn off. I think all the "having killed alot of dragons" repercussions were seen in each individual death box- a rabbit got away, a party got treasure, etc. Apart from that, it was not much different than if all those dragons had been in a volcano when it went off... except that necromancy was involved.

harami2000

2009-03-21, 01:32 AM

I believe Mr Burlew really went overboard with this one.
Mhmm... As before, why was resorting to mere unarmed combat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) ever an issue when all along there has been magic that can nuke (no save, worldwide) anything that stands in its way, plot or no plot.
Toto, we're not in Wisconsin (or Washington) any more... :smallwink:

Makes it easier to sit back and enjoy the fun perhaps, eh?
*disengages unreality further* :smallsmile:

otakuryoga

2009-03-21, 01:43 AM

/shudder :vaarsuvius: actually scares me in this one

someone hold me :smallfrown:

Morgan Wick

2009-03-21, 01:56 AM

Were it not for the fact V doesn't seem to show any remorse whatsoever (yet), I would like to tentatively withdraw my offer to David Argall made in another thread. This might be a "what the hell hero" moment sufficient for a fall back to reality to happen immediately... but it's not as if pre-uber V wouldn't have done the same thing if s/he had the power (as others have pointed out, black dragons are evil so wiping them out could be considered good, and V is hardly Lawful Good, and keep in mind people were defending V's defending his family as hardly the "wrong reasons"), so I doubt V is going to have such a mood swing as to say "what have I done???" (though it's possible, since she may well have just wiped out an entire race of dragon), and if that's the case and the only impact of this is (as others have speculated) drawing Tiamat's wrath, this is a somewhat roundabout way of doing so.

The fact we got a glimpse of Miss Bloodsoak sneaking in "ghostily" to cast the spell tells me we're going to see the other two having their moment in the spotlight before the splice is over.

Pun Pun

2009-03-21, 02:05 AM

Look at the bright side.

If V happens to run itno Hitler during his/her eternity in hell this will be an excellent conversation starter.

sotanaht

2009-03-21, 02:14 AM

One, though this was evilly motivated, it was no more evil then the average good aligned adventuring party commits, they tend to kill larger numbers of creatures who may not even be inherently evil, such as most Orcs and Goblins, in defense of themselves or someone else, sometimes preemptively. This had the benefit of killing creatures who are almost all inherently evil, those that were not (the half dragons), are simply most likely evil, and still a possible danger. Effectively, this was no more evil in action then burning an encampment of goblins with fireballs, and likely much less so if you consider their capacity for good as opposed to black dragons.

Two, While the motivations were clearly for revenge here, they were stated to be to protect. This can be looked at as a preemptive strike on a very likely enemy.

Three, no one is beyond redemption until they are dead, sometimes not even then. I am aware of the hypocritical nature of this and the first point. If one is inherently evil, then they are by definition beyond redemption, however, there is no such thing in reality. All humanoid races are typically given realistic qualities.

Four, these things always have their backlash. The karmic scales will almost certainly be balanced long before V is condemned.

Five, V almost certainly had no idea of the scale this effect would have, nor of the fact that there would possibly be any non-evil creatures in its effect.

Six, assuming that it is a somewhat common thing among black dragons to do what this one did, taking out the entire family tree really was the only way to be sure that this ones parents, or their parents/siblings or theirs, et cetera, did not repeat history when s/he no longer had the power to stop them.

I am not going to call Moral event horizon on this, even though the act at first glance might warrant it. The first thing that will happen on the release of the splice is a heroic BSOD, in the form of "Oh my god what have I done", this will likely be followed by either attempts at atonement or rationalization, unfortunately, I'm betting on rationalization based on Vs own personality which isn't to hopeful for Vs soul, but there is always a chance, perhaps some character development?

Completely aside from this epic spell, demonic deals have a tendancy to go foul before they even come to collect. In this specific instance, the likelihood that V will bring greater harm to his/her family then the dragon ever could have is very high, also, probably the entire elven city. Also keep in mind the law of conservation of detail, the demons brought up the fact that s/he could not duplicate the effects of any divine spell. The first among those that would likely be needed is resurrect. That clause would not have been mentioned if it was not going to matter, most likely.

Separately, to quote "I assure you you will see your kin again shortly". V likely plans to release this dragon after the Familicide spell, letting her see them ALL in death, where they are no longer any sort of threat (there bodies on the other hand, in xycons army perhaps...). Also, to quote again: "Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire". Even if V had thought to bind them in some way, S/he cannot maintain such a binding for very long. The only alternative available would be to use one of the scrolls the mother dragon had acquired.

Majorman

2009-03-21, 02:21 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html
So, if we can trust Ms. Long-Dead Paladin Miko, "their destruction was just and necessary". But we can trust her that much, can we?

ekedolphin

2009-03-21, 02:30 AM

My God. My exact, verbal reaction (adjusting to keep the language PG-13) was, "Vaarsuvius, you are f'd UP right now."

Lord Psychodin

2009-03-21, 02:40 AM

utterly amazing, is all I really can say just about V now.

Onto the alignment fight - Aside from a FEW mistakes and possible "innocents" hit by the spell, not even the hatchlings were likely to be any less. Dragons and alignment are about nearly as "always" as actual planar outsiders who can't change descriptors without extreme exception any more. Yes, I'm saying adventurers come across any chromatic dragon, white, blue, red, green, black, they can attack first, ask questions later, in its sleep, and make a killing by selling off any eggs. All while preserving alignment to the point a paladin would be fine and glowing just fine.

just to clarify - what he did was evil, but not huge based on his motives. Ultimately though a lot of good is going to come out of it. D&D Gold dragons are not "always" good in a level of "80/20%" You could probably note just one in several thousand years of a D&D cosmology that was not good, if not soon destroyed by his kind.

Same with black dragons. you could probably find one good one, if you searched for 10,000 years that was not a half dragon. Likewise take a black dragon hatchling and let ir raise itself, its almost absolutely going to turn out evil. Have a paladin raise a black dragon hatchling and it will probably turn out evil. Its like demons, devils, other outsiders. Every fiber of its being is instinctly programmed for nothing but horrible things and intense lust for many things.

xroads

2009-03-21, 02:49 AM

Hmmmm... so exactly how many experience points does one get for wiping out 60+ dragons? :smallbiggrin:

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 02:49 AM

Key point in that rule is "A soul cannot be returned to life". It says nothing about forcibly binding the soul into an undead mockery made from it's former body. The entire point of high level necromancy is getting around rules like that to torment and destroy your enemies.

Again: Create Greater Undead and other undeadifyers don't work that way. They either create pre-existing types of undead, or reanimate corpses with Negative energy, stripping them of all feats and abilities in the process. In all cases, the soul is not involved. Otherwise, Necromancy would be way too powerful, as every reanimated foe would be a full-fledged character complete with all feats and abilities under the Necromancer's control.

There are ways to do that (Mummified Creature, Ju-Ju Zombie), but they're more complex than just a Create Greater Undead.

What this may be is a form of Ju-Ju Zombying (as the latter can be achieved through Create Undead). But even JJZombies, even though they retain all feats and abilities, are creatures totally perverted by Negative energy. They shouldnt retain any semblance of their former selves characterwise; they're nothing but undead monstrosities, driven by solely hatred and bloodlust. A JJZombie ABD would not cry "Don't take me away from my family, Don't kill my relatives!" It would say (assuming it had a tongues spell slapped on, as JJZ can't speak by themselves) - "LET'S KILL ALL THE DRAGONS AND ALL OTHER LIVING CREATURES, MY HATED MASTER".

Umbra

2009-03-21, 02:54 AM

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but take a look at the third row from the bottom. Is that a... Thing In The Darkness? Obviously not the one we know already - there's a difference in eye color - but can there be any relevance?

Porthos

2009-03-21, 03:13 AM

Hmmmm... so exactly how many experience points does one get for wiping out 60+ dragons? :smallbiggrin:

Given V's current ECL? ZERO (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html). :smalltongue:

Don't worry though, V can always get XP for Role Playing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html). :smallbiggrin:

cyan-shine

2009-03-21, 03:14 AM

OMG ! LTRFTP, have been tempted to post on several occasions, but this one does it. Amazing comic all the way, Familicide is genuinely horrific !:smalleek:
Hope next comic is funny again ;P

Porthos

2009-03-21, 04:05 AM

Again: Create Greater Undead and other undeadifyers don't work that way. They either create pre-existing types of undead, or reanimate corpses with Negative energy, stripping them of all feats and abilities in the process. In all cases, the soul is not involved

Actually that is one of the eternal debates of DnD players (alongside such classics as the Orc Baby problem). I have been bellying up to the table since 1978 and I can tell you that, regardless of what a rule/splat book may or may not imply, the "does an intellegent undead person still have the soul of the deceased person" debate is one that has been waged as long as DnD has existed.

In fact I suspect the debate is so hard set in gamers minds that a rule supplement could flat out state that a soul is not attached to an undead critter (except for obvious cases like liches and whatnot) and various people would STILL debate it.

So it's not a strech at all to think that Rich falls under the catagory of "A person's soul can be attached to an intellegent undead critter". Sure we already know that souls aren't attached to zombies in OotS land. But the jury was out on other critters. Rich has just given a pretty good idea that he falls on the "under the right circumstances a person's soul can be attached to an undead critter."

Didn't cause me to bat my eyes in the least. Never even tripped the "no divine magic" clause in my book. If we're being honest here, it seemed perfectly in the spirit of the rules of DnD. Which, when all things are considered, is by far the most important thing when it comes to thinking about how rules "should" affect the story.

Besides, Rich already fudges the rules in regards to undead spells. After all, when was the last time you saw a Create Undead spell take an hour to cast in this comic? :smalltongue:

Dr. Cthulwho

2009-03-21, 04:06 AM

Oh. My. Goodness. V.

What have you done? Other then a bit of old mass murder (as I'd consider it). I sense this will cause some blow back (perhaps in the form of a certain, angry dragon god?).

Great strip though. Once again Rich manages to create a real emotional response in his readers (well, me at least). Truly a master of the medium. I can't wait to see what happens next.

Oh, and one of those choirs wouldn't have been out of place as V cast his spell (like the one present for his dark ascension).

interesting.....

personally, i would describe this spell as lawfull neutral

Well as lawful neutral as any spell by an epic level, evil, necromancer is ever going to be.

...assuming your opponent starts the blood feud.

Except it has nothing to do with blood feuds at all. It is a spell designed to wipe out every member of the targets family. Indescriminatly too from the looks of things (unhatched dragons, a young dragon that is probably around the age of V's kids in dragon years).

The ABD said nothing at all about this concerning the rest of her extended family. In fact it went pretty much like this.

ABD - "You killed my kid in a way that prevents me raising him. As revenge I'm going to kill your entire family, making sure you can't raise your children either. Then I'm going to go where you'll never find me and stroke a large white cat while imagining the pain my revenge will cause you."

as opposed to:

"You actions ensure that every member of my family from every corner of the globe will be committed to making you and your family suffer."

Re: Black dragons being evil or not: We've been told that in Rich's universe, metalic dragons are good, colored dragons are evil. I think the line was: "Dragons: Color coded for your convenience". (Ahh: 207)

Although like everything in the OotS world that might not be so black and white (when taken from adventures at least). We've seen it with goblins after all (though goblin alignment isn't hardwired as much). And none of the dragons shown being struck down were actually involved in any evil acts from the looks of things. The only one actually fighting looked to be protecting its horde. All the rest looked to be minding their own business.

More in general though I'd be a bit weary of the description good being used for, say, some enterprising epic wizard who says "Hmmm. 99% of black dragons* are evil. It is fine for adventures to kill them when they come across them. Ergo I would be a good hero if I created an epic spell that could kill them all."

*Or any other "almost always evil" aligned creature.

JoseB

2009-03-21, 04:17 AM

And there's not a lot Tiamat can do about it at the moment because V is back 'home' in the northern continent; remember how Thor couldn't intervene in the Southern?

Awesome comic. And we have a map!

Actually, not. If you look at the map, you very clearly see that the Elven lands (or, at least, the part of the Elven lands where Vaarsuvius' home village is located, as pinpointed by the point of origin of the globe-encompassing pink lightning) are located in the northern part of the WESTERN continent.

The Western Continent.

Tiamat is one of the Western Pantheon.

So, yes. Tiamat CAN intervene directly in things that happen in the Western Continent. Which includes Vaarsuvius' home town. Which is where Vaarsuvius is located right at the moment.

So, Vaarsuvius has killed/familicided/genocided a lot of black dragons while in the home turf of the Mother Goddess of Chromatic Dragons...

Oh dearie dearie me.

Just my 2 eurocent!

pnewman

2009-03-21, 04:21 AM

'Varsuvius, dis is turning into one of dose plans ver yu is killing every dragon who notices yu is killing every dragon! Und how do dose plans olvays end?'

'Vell, de dirgible is in flames, everyone is dead, und, I've lost my Neutrality.'

'And any plan vere you lose your Neutrality is?'

'A bad plan.'

SuperDuperHai2U

2009-03-21, 04:38 AM

By killing so many black dragons, V has violated the balance. I wouldn't be surprised if he/she has to answer to the wrath of a True Neutral deity now.

V Junior

2009-03-21, 04:48 AM

...

That was SO FREAKIN' AWESOME!!!

I know some of you now hate V, but I like hir more then ever - anyone who can to that to 63 black dragons (or more!) is cool in my book. Yes, it was disproportionatal revenge. Yes, it was completely and irrevocally evil. But it was SO DAMN COOL!

But the OOTS are going to have a problem with Tiamat from now on. And maybe they'll end up running to Bahamut or Io or Dragon (who I think is good) for help.

gefenm11

2009-03-21, 04:55 AM

is it possible that Monster in the dark was that black dragon relative?

(considering one avatar with x_x on black ground)

Cyradoc

2009-03-21, 05:16 AM

Somebody might've already pointed this out, I didn't really read every post in the thread, since it's getting pretty crowded in here, but I think Familicide itself might be an inherently evil spell, you know, a spell with the [Evil] descriptor. You don't research such a spell if you don't expect to unleash it time and again. And, I think the Epic Necrolady's targets were non-evil most of the time...

Besides, I don't know if evil outsiders such as demons and such can have a family, since they're supposedly planar matter from their own plane spontaneously coalescing into sentient form (specific campaign-world rules can obviously change that but still...).

What I am trying to point out is that Familicide is a spell whose foremost purpose is to 'bring misery' to your enemies. 'We have only begun to bring misery'. V and the Necrolady were 90% together in purpose too when they cast the spell together.

Xykon is the main villain of the campaign (at least to this point) and we expect him to be the evil mastermind who wants to conquer the world ('I like the world, I wouldn't mind ruling it in fact'). He's also a very funny, unique bad guy who behaves like a Playing Character in a lot of ways. I don't think evil NPCs are likely to run into a good-aligned monsters who have taken up residence in his evil tower of evil :smalltongue: .

V's evil act was unleashed in a single burst world-wide, targeted annihilation.
I don't know if it's really important who it was aimed at. And it came from a PC (one of my favourites actually, since I tend to be partial to arcane casters).

I haven't said it before (woe befall me :smalltongue:), but I can't wait to see how this develops!

Edric O

2009-03-21, 05:19 AM

Zack Norglad

2009-03-21, 05:35 AM

I do believe that this is the first time that I've actually found myself honestly horrified by something I saw in a webcomic. And considering that OOTS was the one to do it, you can count me doubly surprised.:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Agree. Such a weird and powerful comic... I really don't know how to look at this.

Tordek

2009-03-21, 05:38 AM

So... did V just kill every black dragon and dragonkin on earth at the same time?

Coldwind

2009-03-21, 05:46 AM

Missing good old times to be honest, like when elan rolls 4, when roy argues with belkar.. This comic is now out of its way if we compare it to its beginning. It has become evil and complex, not funny or being a parody anymore, at least for me. cool comic anyway, but these last strips are not related with old oots, so its like reading a new comic with old characters from oots..
anyway, I think V will have some problems with gods or black dragonkin deity or whatever for this familicide spell. and he wont have that soul splice when he needs to face them..

rxmd

2009-03-21, 05:53 AM

Though there is one spell that I cannot understand, despite my considerable amount of d&d knowledge... pray tell what does "telekinisis" do? It seems similiar to "Telekinesis".
It's the "Epic Typo" 4th edition version of the same spell. :smalltongue:

Krenn

2009-03-21, 06:05 AM

Actually, the more i think about this, the more i think V's spell qualifies as Lawfull Neutral.

I can think of several reasons to use the familicide spell:

1. Revenge.

You hurt my family, so i hurt your family even more. this makes me feel better, and you feel worse.

Revenge against neutral or good characters is evil. revenge against evil characters could be anywhere from evil to good.

Revenge against MOSTLY evil characters, with a few neutral or good characters thrown in is probably either evil or neutral.

2. Reprisal. You try to kill my family, i kill your family. the lesson here is that FAMILIES ARE OFF LIMITS.

proportionate reprisal is probably neutral, although use by good or evil characters might qualify as good/evil

3. Deterrent. You have provided an opportunity for me to prove to EVERYONE ELSE that MY family is DEFINITLY off limits.

deterrent is also probably neutral, depending on targets. if the point is to deter evil beings from doing evil things by killing a large number of other evil beings, that might be good. throw in a small fraction of neutral or good targets, and it's probably neutral.

4. War. My mission is to KILL large numbers of (evil race/species.) Familicide is an efficient method of doing so.

this is either neutral or good. adding fractions of neutral/good targets leans towards neutral.

5. Proof of concept. Can this spell be made to work?

used against evil targets, good or neutral. against mixed targets, neutral or possibly evil.

6. Bragging rights. I killed 60 dragons with a single spell! go me!

If you include non-evil targets in the mix, this probably qualifies as evil. if you plan a little more carefully, you can move it into the 'war' category, and it becomes neutral.

I think V was going for DETERRENCE, which would mean that the action was neutral. ( Killing (mostly) evil beings, as a warning to other evil beings, that a neutral/good family is off limits, would be neutral. killing entirely evil beings for the same purpose would be neutral or good.)

in order to be EVIL, V would need to use this spell against a set of targets which were less than 50% evil, no matter how good V's reason was, or else to use it against targets which were not entirely evil, just for laughs. anything else is just a really scary neutral.

Eric O'Really

2009-03-21, 06:11 AM

for a moment, i thought he just killed the monster in the darkness. then i realized, that the eyes have ben green and not yellow :smallbiggrin:

Kogan Urufu

2009-03-21, 06:20 AM

I doesn't matter if those beins are inherrently evil, the Mother Dragon had already surrendered, the difference between Good and Evil is that Good rise above petty vengence. And Familicide is definatly evil. Those dragons did nothing the V except being related to the Mother Dragon.

Belkster11

2009-03-21, 06:33 AM

The ABD only surrendered when it was a floating undead head.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with V. The ABD had threaten to torture/kill/spell-bind two innocent children and a baker. What V is doing is ensuring that nothing like this ever happens to him or anyone else's family AGAIN.

If V were doing this to Adolf Hitler, murdering everyone related to him, none of us would be trying to crucify him and call him evil.

The ABD belongs to an evil race, ergo, that makes herself and every other black dragon evil. They must die.

I'll judge differently by how he acts with his family.

sotanaht

2009-03-21, 06:37 AM

Bow down and worship, Belkar! Who's the Sexy Androgynous God(dess) of War now?

But... one question bugs me. What exactly is stopping V from casually erasing Xykon and Redcloak from existence with a mere thought?

Nothing, yet. Dealing with the dragon was the first priority for V, for obvious reasons. Once finished, s/he will probably think of trying to deal with them while s/he has the chance, s/he may also try dealing with the other problems s/he has been plagued with, such as attempting to contact the missing party members. Unfortunately, something will strip this chance from him/her, resulting in the binding being released. Alternatively, something may cause V to release the binding, or it may simply come undone, before s/he has the chance to consider targeting the main villains or other problems.

Kaytara

2009-03-21, 06:40 AM

I think how Evil the act was really depends on V's motivation, which we don't know for sure. However, to me the comic certainly makes it seem as though Vaarsuvius came up with the idea of Familiscide on an impulse and rationalized it to himself afterwards. However, the fact that he still even needs a rationalization can be seen as mildly comforting.

for a moment, i thought he just killed the monster in the darkness. then i realized, that the eyes have ben green and not yellow :smallbiggrin:

The dragons killed here have had eyes all the colours of the rainbow.

However, the MitD is too important a character with far too much buildup to be killed by a stray spell. Also, SoD gives us indications that the creature is exotic, monstrous and out of place in a forest. So probably no dragon.

Is V a Mary Sue character now? Someone mentioned it in a thread before... if I were more familiar with fanfiction theory, I might be able to answer that question. Unfortunately, I am not, so I guess I'll wait for the inevitable discussion. :smallcool:

I doubt there'll be an inevitable discussion because the question has never been raised before.
Simply being powerful does not make someone a Mary-Sue. They have to be described as perfect and infallible, with every aspect of the world catering to their desires and their great power seeming to be there for no good reason.
It's quite obvious that those things aren't true for Vaarsuvius. V has always had very real flaws, with other characters calling him out on them (which would never happen to a Mary-Sue) and the world is very far from catering to his desires - in fact, it seems to be conspiring to screw V over. And V's great power at this time has come at a very great price and will have profound repercussions for V, both long-term and short-term.

factotum

2009-03-21, 07:00 AM

To make an epic death spell that affects the entire world, assuming said world like Earth has a radius of 6300 km = 18900ft, and that no more dragons than shown in the strip were killed, would have a DC of:

Couple of points of order here. Firstly, you're a factor of a thousand out there--6300km is around 20.7 million feet, not just 18 thousand or so! Secondly, using that as an estimate for range would work if V was at the centre of the globe, but he isn't. As such, the spell would have to take account of one of its targets being potentially on the far side of the planet from him, so you'd have to use the diameter of the planet in the spell, not its radius. So, how does the DC change when the spell needs a range of 41 million feet? :smallwink:

msngae

2009-03-21, 07:00 AM

Congratulations. This strip made me register to ask questions (I've been following this strip since the middle of last year)

To begin:

1) If Tiamat appears, who do you think will win the resulting fight? If V wins, will he/she receive divine rank 0?

2) Why doesn't V simply cast Time Stop, Wish Redcloak into close vicinity and obliterate Xykon's phylactery? Unless he/she is blinded by current problems, but an Int 18 character would realize that pretty damned quick.

2.1) Why no Time Stop?

3) Will V use Greater Scrying to find Haley, pop over with Greater Teleport and Wish Roy back into the living world?

4) Will V decide to screw Hell over to maintain the splice? I doubt anyone in the demonic planes is going to be able to do anything about it if V wants to.

5) Is Rich's world going to have a Zimbabwean problem of economy?

Now, my personal hypotheses are:

1) If V is now evil and sent to "Hell", the demons will kick him/her back out and say "Shoo! Enjoy yourself! Wreak devastation upon this land!"

2) If V remains neutral, he/she just has to make a few bluff checks to cover everything up. That and more than a few dose of memory erasure and reality warping.

3) If V turns "good" (Killing of evil), Heaven will kick him out because quite frankly, the power of a 80+ level caster is enough to make every mortal from Greyhawk to Eberron quake with fear.

dps

2009-03-21, 07:01 AM

If V were doing this to Adolf Hitler, murdering everyone related to him, none of us would be trying to crucify him and call him evil.

You really think so? Are you aware that Hitler's half-brother had immigrated to the US and that Hitler's 2 nephews served in the US Army in WWII? AFAIK, those 2 guys are still alive. You think if someone decided to murder them and their families in revenge for the Holocaust, everybody else would be OK with it and say it was a good thing, or at least wasn't evil?

Ozzymindous

2009-03-21, 07:10 AM

Well, has anyone thought of the large dent in the epic black dragon population? :vaarsuvius: just killed 60+ black dragons. There can't be that many Black Dragons in the world.

It is said that everyone in the world is realted if you go ack 7 generations. The ABD could be related to almost every black dragon on the planet.

Did V just cause the extinction of the Black Dragon speciese?

I hope not.

HandofShadows

2009-03-21, 07:10 AM

V certainly seems to have acted as both a deterent to anyone going after vis family and as a way to make "dead" sure not other family member related to ABD can have a go at V's family. That spell though was over the top though and. But it's still not as bad as what ABD had planned. At least V is allowing the souls to go to the after life. About the only way I can see V getting "out of this" is if the spell only didn't totaly kill them (yeah tight) or V has something else up the sleave of that robe other than an arm.

But we DID find out the answer to my question about what do black dragons taste like (chicken).

I wonder if the Fiends or going OH SPIT! right now. :smallbiggrin: V accidentally may have totaly screwed up their plans. Do you think that the CE
forces are going to be happy about all those dragons croaking?

motub

2009-03-21, 07:37 AM

A funny thing just occurred to me:

Suppose it's not over yet?

Suppose the next strip is just more panels of dragons dying "out of the blue"? If all dragons are related, and/or crossbreeding between dragon types is possible, then we could conceivably only have seen the beginning of the "main line" dying-- subsidiary and sidelines haven't yet been touched.

Suppose it really is an Extinction Level Event, because of the nature of dragon breeding (and You Are There)?

Would it be "Evil" then (for those of you who think it's not evil now)? It certainly would be the only thing more shocking than what has already occurred.

Felixaar

2009-03-21, 07:38 AM

Did anyone else suddenly hear the voice of Professor Farnsworth: "Oh, that one kills everything everywhere."

cheesecake

2009-03-21, 07:38 AM

Wow, I would say that is the single coolest, but at the same time, dumbest event in the comic.

Hmm..ok lets have V kill EVERY BLACK DRAGON IN THE WORLD! Wow....what a waste.

MickJay

2009-03-21, 07:42 AM

If it's okay to murder dozens of dragons just because they exist and might one day threaten one's family, then how is that different from murdering dozens of humans that the murderer considers evil for the same reason? And these dragons had no reason to even know that V existed.

I think BoVD says something about inflicting pain for its own sake, but I don't remember the pages.

The difference is between black dragons being always evil and the murderer considering those humans evil.

Plus, V at least rationalizes inflicting the pain (protect the family), even if it was not his main motive, so it's not exactly inflicting pain for its own sake.

The problem is with conflicting motives and results, dubious motives and mixed results. By D&D lore, V shifted the world's good/evil balance significantly to the side of good while at the same time gave the fiends rights to use him thrice as long for their own purposes (and they can do it with surgical precision if needed). Compared to the possible consequences of that, V's motivations aren't really that significant, he lost when he started to play.

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 07:44 AM

The odds are very good this was a dragon in the darkness, not a monster in the darkness. Dragons do like dark caves after all.

Plus, creating Darkness is an inherent power of juvenile or older black dragons. We saw Junior use that same ability, so it's hardly a surprise that one out of 50+ adult potential targets would be doing so at the time the Familicide was activated.

geekwraith

2009-03-21, 07:47 AM

This reminds me of Ender's Game for some reason.

Perhaps because after they left Ender without his monitor and he got jumped and killed the leader (although he didn't know for certain he killed him at that point), when they later asked him the reason for the ferocity of his response, he explained that it was so none of them would ever dare to attack him again. As with V's action, it was blood-chillingly, terrifyingly practical.

Somehow, I doubt V will be tormented by his actions as Ender was by his.

Gort

2009-03-21, 07:47 AM

Wow, did not expect V to pull a Kevin Uxbridge. Whatever, the Husnock black dragons were jerks and got what they deserved.

If V had spent 20 years with a high-level party of adventurers, hunting down 60+ dragons to take their hordes, and furthermore, they'd restricted their kills to black dragons, because they're always evil, no one would bat an eye. That's just normal adventurer stuff, perfectly acceptable, even admirable as the height of the good alignment even though they were just out to get rich. And even if the adventurers stomped a few eggs while they were there, it would just be for good measure, to make sure the job wasn't done halfway. Nothing wrong with that.

But when V does it all at once, not for personal gain but to protect family, it's the most evil act ever. If V had really done the killing for pleasure or just to torture the ABD further, why justify it as anything else? The family couldn't understand. The only people there were V, the ABD, and the spliced souls. Why make an excuse when there's no one there that you need to excuse yourself to?

I concur. V's actions are practical and appropriate given the temporary nature of his powers. Evil? That's far from clear.
:smallannoyed:

Killing is not necessarily evil.

noncaloric

2009-03-21, 08:00 AM

I got it.
"Read a scroll of genocide. Wiped out all @'s".

Getting OT, but genociding your own species while polymorphed into something else gave one of Nethack's more ominous messages.

Rumex

2009-03-21, 08:03 AM

Pure evil. I still hope V is going to give up the power once he's over with the dragon. :(

Even if V does no more evil, that's still plenty enough to condemn V to the nine hells forever. O.O V would have to repent of V's actions and do something massive to atone.

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 08:15 AM

The template bit for Half-dragon says "same as base creature", but doesn't give a "Always", "Usually" or "Often" bit. But in the actual sample half-dragon entry in the Monster Manual, its "Often Chaotic Evil"

Similarly, in Races of the Dragon, which decribes hal-dragons in detail, it points out that half-dragons are not in fact always of the alignment of the parent- there are exceptions.

That would suggest that the half-dragons, as creatures which are not "always evil" were murdered- unlike in SoD, there is no evidence of them doing something wrong, like "harboring villain"

kusje

2009-03-21, 08:16 AM

Hmm, I didn't get the title.

Belkster11

2009-03-21, 08:18 AM

You really think so? Are you aware that Hitler's half-brother had immigrated to the US and that Hitler's 2 nephews served in the US Army in WWII? AFAIK, those 2 guys are still alive. You think if someone decided to murder them and their families in revenge for the Holocaust, everybody else would be OK with it and say it was a good thing, or at least wasn't evil?

I was not aware of that.

If they killed them NOW, it'd be bad since they've made it clear that they pose no threat. However, if they were murdered during WWII, then people would not have noticed. (or if they did, it'd be all hush-hush)

Let me direct you to the Gustloff, a German ship that carried 10,000 panicked German refugees. They were torpedoed by Russians. Only 990 came out alive. Since this happened in WWII, no one decided to call Russia on that. They just let it slide. It didn't matter if they (The German refugees) were wholly good and innocent and wanted/had no part in the entire mess. They were bad simply because their country was ruled by bad men.

I'm looking at this through V's line of thoughts. The black dragon poses a threat, and like all black dragons, this one is evil. Who's to say those little black dragon eggs wouldn't grow up to become monsters who would terrorize towns? To V, they had to die so something like this couldn't happen ever again.

berrew

2009-03-21, 08:28 AM

I see far too many "this is just like..." posts. There *is* no "this is just like" where you can start comparing to real world examples, or to compare to creatures whose alignment isn't fixed "genetically" or however the heck it happens in an AD&D construct. While the very idea of hardwired "goodness" or "evilness" (especially the idea of hardwired "evil" communities) has led to a lot of paradoxes that have tied AD&D creators in knots, it's just the way it is. Unless the author of the gameworld decides to change a monster for their own purposes, BDs are evil, period.

So please, take off the table strawman arguments like, "If it was a bunny that attacked 'Suvie's family, then she would have..." or "If it were a bunch of elves that..." Not the same, not a valid argument, not relevant to V's actions - and its pure supposition in any case, that V would have done the same in other cases.

In most ways real world examples are worse than useless in this case. Your first posit must be, "given that all of the creatures killed by this spell are and have always been* evil"... This throws most of our intuition out the window, and is no doubt one of the reasons that Rich Burlew did this. He regularly likes to poke at the idea of objective alignments, creatures with "fixed" alignments, and the quandaries that result from such ideas.

As another side note - it's (IMO) unlikely if the ABD's cry, "I surrender!", happened before the spell was cast. In the OoTS world, saying a spell's name and its effects seem simultaneous - but who really knows in a panel-by-panel universe...

*Unless magically altered. But tiny, outside chances of something, even in real world examples, are generally ignored. If someone is shooting in the direction of a policeman and screaming that they want to kill a cop, it's a tragic mistake if they are really talking about the guy standing right behind the policeman who has the nickname "cop".

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 08:34 AM

MM under Always X alignment- exceptions are assumed to exist

Savage Species- exceptions exist

BoED- exceptions exist, even if "there is only the barest glimmer of hope" that any particular chromatic dragon will find redemption.

BoED- killing must have just cause- "being evil" is not enough.

So, even if the dragons and half-dragons are all evil, V does not have "just cause" since he does not know anything about them- particular crimes.

Heroes of Horror- evil does not automatically imply "killing them is never murder"

skychrome

2009-03-21, 08:42 AM

Well I understand the discussion in so far, as the familicide left a bad aftertaste with me as well in the first moment. However I think we should bear in mind that this is a humorous comic strip we are talking about and that this spell actually is so extremely out of scope that it really emphasizes that V's current situation is actually a funny and absurd one which leads to V doing absurd things.
I love V the way he is right now and I think it will be REALLY funny to see him "getting sober"! :smallbiggrin:

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 08:48 AM

Your first posit must be, "given that all of the creatures killed by this spell are and have always been* evil"...

Wrong.

1) Read the Monster Manual. Always evil alignment only means the creature is born evil. Its alignment can change during life. Therefore, some black dragons may not be evil.

2) Half-dragons are also affected, and they can definitely be of any alignment. Even if we take the "usually [alignment]" from the Half-dragon example entry, it only means that more than 50% have this particular alignment. The rest can have a different alignment. Notable example is the Dragon Disciple prestige class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm), which includes acquiring the half-dragon template at lvl 10 and does not have alignment prerequisites.

V's act was definitely evil. It is indiscriminate mass killing against creatures who have done nothing to provoke it, and might be Lawful Good paladins for all we know. It is not a Neutral act, but outright Evil, and profoundly so.

DrivinAllNight

2009-03-21, 08:48 AM

Hmm, I didn't get the title.

it's from a movie, a Godfather one i think, but the rest of the phrase is -
"If They Pull a Knife, You Pull a Gun. If they kill one of your family, you kill ten of their's" or something like that

basically, whatever they did, you go one up on them, no matter how crazy or outrageous the deed.

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 08:49 AM

However I think we should bear in mind that this is a humorous comic strip we are talking about and that this spell actually is so extremely out of scope that it really emphasizes that V's current situation is actually a funny and absurd one which leads to V doing absurd things.

Yeah, he sure put the "laughter" in "slaughter"!

Seriously, I like this V.

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 08:53 AM

I think its a case of people using only SRD and only looking at "same as the base creature" whereas, in the actual MM (a half black dragon human) it says "Often Chaotic Evil"

Suggesting its downgraded all the way from "Always" to "Often" for dragons

And "Always Good" creatures, even outsiders with Good subtype, change alignment- Evil celestials exist in several sourcebooks.

If both subtype and alignment line are not 100% guarantee of alignment, then just alignment line isn't.

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 08:55 AM

BoED

BoED, however, is all about Good, not Neutrality.

So, even if the dragons and half-dragons are all evil, V does not have "just cause" since he does not know anything about them- particular crimes.

He may not have a "just cause" fit for a Paladin, but if the dragons and half-dragons are indeed all evil, killing them may be qualified as a Neutral act. Lack of personal affront to V is counterbalanced by their evil nature and danger to society.

Heroes of Horror- evil does not automatically imply "killing them is never murder"

I seriously doubt Lawful Neutral legislations would consider killing chromatic dragons "murder". Many Lawful Good wouldn't, either.

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 08:56 AM

Moreover, arguing whether or not those particular black dragons and dragon-kin were Evil is rather missing the point: that V cast the spell without knowing who/what Mama was related to, whether or not they deserved death, or whether they were actually inclined to seek vengeance for Mama's demise. For all V knew, all Mama's blood relatives might've all been living on some far-off continent with no clue who V is. They might've despised Mama for letting her son date a green dragon, and actually approved of her death. Heck, they might've included a family of Chaotic Good draconic elf sorcerers who could've helped the Order defend the next Gate! But V didn't bother to find out -- even though ve has epic divinations at vir disposal, and had plenty of time to cast them once Mama, herself, was dead -- and instead did the moral equivalent of bombing a Mafia family reunion. Yes, it's plausible that all those killed were Evil, but V couldn't be sure no innocents were caught in the crossfire. Reckless endangerment may not be as bad as actual murder, but it's still a crime.

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 08:59 AM

it's from a movie, a Godfather one i think, but the rest of the phrase is -
"If They Pull a Knife, You Pull a Gun. If they kill one of your family, you kill ten of their's" or something like that.

It's from The Untouchables. Roughly, Sean Connery's character tells Eliot Ness: "It they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's how you get Capone."

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 09:01 AM

Galeheart

2009-03-21, 09:01 AM

...

Whoa...

...

:eek:

This cannot be good, especially considering that V may have likely slaughtered an entire race in front of his family.

This calls for an avatar change.

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 09:06 AM

Samakain

2009-03-21, 09:10 AM

Could someone explain to me how Familicide can even work? It seems way, WAY overpowered even for an epic spell if it can instantly wipe out *every* relative dragon of that one, apparently even bypassing their save.

Not upper limit on epic my friend, all is possible...its just kinda terrifying. Also i believe the particular epic spell as the factors of "the giant said so" and "god dammit if this isn't just pure awesome" on the DC check.

and for the rest of you ranting on about if the black dragons family was evil, blah blah blah, i think you forget the point in the comic where haley states "dragons, color coded for your convenience" hell if it convinced that bitch of a paladin, its good enough for you :D

In short

V is awsome, Spell was...just...wow.

Slaughter each and every last black scaled freaks in a wash of power and pink glory! now raise the bastards and do it AGAIN o.O

The aftermath of this is gunna be tastey

that is all.

Galeheart

2009-03-21, 09:11 AM

Knowing it will kill everyone related, and knowing nothing about them, seems like murder rather than manslaughter.

It might be compared to releasing a tailored disease to wipe out everyone with certain genes. Except, in this case, result is instantaneous and widespread.

Point still being that he killed off untold numbers of beings with little or no effort... In front of his spouse and children. It's a semantics issue, really. *shrug*

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 09:17 AM

in BoVD, "reckless endangerment resulting in death" is considered evil, but not as evil as murder, in the sample act given, showing difference between accident, endangerment, and "sacrificing innocents to save yourself"

So, while it may not matter to V's family, it does if you're judging how evil (or not evil) it was.

drazen

2009-03-21, 09:25 AM

Even I couldn't stop lurking after something this big!

Of course, two of my thoughts have already been covered: one, that V's family are clearly horrified by hir actions, and as a consequence, they may not want anything to do with hir after witnessing what Suvie is capable of - which is probably pretty shocking to an apprentice baker and two tiny children, all of whom appear to be quite pacifistic; and two, that no matter how many black dragons V took out, someone's going to notice and be certifiably angry. If they were to escalate the feud further still, what's left? Obliterating the entire elven race? If that were the case, how could V ultimately stop it all, except to annihilate every living and undead thing in all existence?

My own speculation: I'm curious if the 'Soul Splice' is something that requires all that much effort for V to hold on to, despite what the orange fiends told hir. V wants ultimate arcane power, and the three evil souls have got to be enjoying conjuring again. Not to mention that, logically, V will be just as powerless when the splice wears off as it began -- meaning if V's goal is protecting hir family, the only possible way to do that is to hold on to all this power forever. So, I don't quite buy the fiends' "no catch" clause - c'mon, there's always a catch!

kusje

2009-03-21, 09:32 AM

It's from The Untouchables. Roughly, Sean Connery's character tells Eliot Ness: "It they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's how you get Capone."

Thanks! Both of you.

Zanaril

2009-03-21, 09:32 AM

The way I see it, the splice will begin to be hard to hold onto as soon as V tries to do something the other souls don't want to do. Which means she'll be able to hold onto them indefinitely as long as she continues doing evil acts.

Makabriel

2009-03-21, 09:39 AM

Sebastian

2009-03-21, 09:42 AM

Finally, the "I concur" could have been in response to "There is so much more that we can do", which could then just be V agreeing that V has more spells available to cast in order to accomplish the aim of protecting the spouse and kids. Thus V's intention does not have to be to inflict pain.

If V's intentions were just to protect the family, why the big hurry? It is not like any ABD relative will know she is dead and teleport in in the next, oh, let's say 10 minutes. She would have time to talk to her family reassure them, maybe limited wish some potion of healing to fix their wounds and even just teleport them to the nearest temple where they will be safe and taken care of and eventually then kill all the ABD family. but obviously at the moment the priority for V was to make the bitch suffer, her family can just wait laying on the ground in pain while assisting her creating a undead with an obviously evil spell and enjoying it.

Raldage

2009-03-21, 09:46 AM

One of those boxes is just two eyes in darkness...maybe we've touched upon that already in this thread, but there are too many comments for me to review them to check...say it isn't so!

-M

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 09:50 AM

as i said before i would like to see V cast soul bind to keep the dragons soul or maybe even cast some kind of epic soul bind to bind ALL the dragons souls to him and also binding those other three souls to him to make him all bad ass.

Extremely unlikely. First, because the IFCC told V that any ongoing magical effects would expire when the Splice ends. And second, because V assured Mama's head that she would see her kin again.

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 09:58 AM

But V didn't bother to find out -- even though ve has epic divinations at vir disposal, and had plenty of time to cast them once Mama, herself, was dead

V did not have plenty of time, given that V is aware of the 3 for 1 soul-splice deal. Whatever V does, V must do it as quickly as possible.

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 09:59 AM

Getting OT, but genociding your own species while polymorphed into something else gave one of Nethack's more ominous messages.

Ok, I admit I am curious. Anyone have a quote of what it would say? And did you mean "Genociding a D while polymorphed into a D" or "Genociding an @ while polymorphed into a D"?

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 10:00 AM

snafu

2009-03-21, 10:02 AM

Ok, I admit I am curious. Anyone have a quote of what it would say?

If I remember correctly, if you genocide your own species while polymorphed into something else, the message is "You feel dead inside".

And of course when you change back to your original species... yeah.

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 10:04 AM

3. Deterrent. You have provided an opportunity for me to prove to EVERYONE ELSE that MY family is DEFINITLY off limits.

deterrent is also probably neutral, depending on targets. if the point is to deter evil beings from doing evil things by killing a large number of other evil beings, that might be good. throw in a small fraction of neutral or good targets, and it's probably neutral.

If that is the motive, then it is a foolish one unless V plans to hold onto the soul-splice forever. Once the splice ends and V is back to less-than-epic status, the deterrence effect goes away. A little like the U.S. saying "Attack me and I will nuke you like I nuked Japan! Oh, btw, I will be getting rid of all of my nukes and other WMDs soon."

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 10:05 AM

If I remember correctly, if you genocide your own species while polymorphed into something else, the message is "You feel dead inside".

And of course when you change back to your original species... yeah.

A short game? Or a "last @ on earth" game? No more shopkeepers (my God shopkeepers were tough)?

motub

2009-03-21, 10:09 AM

If V'0s intentions wasjust to protect the family, why the big hurry? It is not like any ABD relative will know she is dead and teleport in in the next, oh, let's say 10 minutes. She would have time to talk to her family reassure them, maybe limited wish some potion of healing to fix their wounds and even just teleport them to the nearest temple where they will be safe and taken care of and eventually then kill all the ABD family.
This is a great idea, but you must remember that, as far as V is concerned, the splice could end at "any moment", therefore if shi wants to do something that needs the power of the splice to accomplish, it's better to do it sooner rather than later, when shi might not be able to do it at all.

The way I see it, the splice will begin to be hard to hold onto as soon as V tries to do something the other souls don't want to do.
Nice catch; that makes a lot of sense-- especially when we've just seen the ghostly individual... splice-ee... basically get so excited about her "moment in the sun" (in total accord with V), that she "comes forward" (even if she wasn't actually visible to anyone, it's still kinda noteworthy that she was visible "in strip", when the voices have until now only been audible in-strip).

Sebastian

2009-03-21, 10:12 AM

4) Will V decide to screw Hell over to maintain the splice? I doubt anyone in the demonic planes is going to be able to do anything about it if V wants to.

I doubt the three fiends are so stupid to give V more power than they can handle. That is a beginner villain's mistake and they are obviously not beginners

Sebastian

2009-03-21, 10:14 AM

Couple of points of order here. Firstly, you're a factor of a thousand out there--6300km is around 20.7 million feet, not just 18 thousand or so! Secondly, using that as an estimate for range would work if V was at the centre of the globe, but he isn't. As such, the spell would have to take account of one of its targets being potentially on the far side of the planet from him, so you'd have to use the diameter of the planet in the spell, not its radius. So, how does the DC change when the spell needs a range of 41 million feet? :smallwink:

Of course this assume that OOTS's planet is the same size of Earth.

Sebastian

2009-03-21, 10:19 AM

A funny thing just occurred to me:

Suppose it's not over yet?

Suppose the next strip is just more panels of dragons dying "out of the blue"? If all dragons are related, and/or crossbreeding between dragon types is possible, then we could conceivably only have seen the beginning of the "main line" dying-- subsidiary and sidelines haven't yet been touched.

Even better/worse. Next are panels of non-dragon victims, dragonborm, halfdragon, creature with the dragonblooded template (I'm sure there is one somewhere),sorcerors, humanoid with the dragon ancestry feat (or what is called, the ones that give you spell like abilities), relatives of these humanoids...
The fun never end.

The MunchKING

2009-03-21, 10:19 AM

If V were doing this to Adolf Hitler, murdering everyone related to him, none of us would be trying to crucify him and call him evil.

Nah you don't want to kill everyone RELATED to ol' Adolf. You want something to kill everyone who WORKED for him.

You need Corpercide not Familicide.

The MunchKING

2009-03-21, 10:25 AM

If that is the motive, then it is a foolish one unless V plans to hold onto the soul-splice forever. Once the splice ends and V is back to less-than-epic status, the deterrence effect goes away. A little like the U.S. saying "Attack me and I will nuke you like I nuked Japan! Oh, btw, I will be getting rid of all of my nukes and other WMDs soon."

But the catch is would anyone KNOW about the soul-splice and lack thereof if she didn't tell them?

It'd be like theUS saying "Attack me and I will nuke you like I nuked Japan!" and then having someone steal/disassemble their nukes on the QT. Noone else would KNOW the Nukes were gone, and the US would be trying as hard as it could to get them back.

Outside the metaphor this could be V striving for Epic levels herself, or wanting the splice back, either works.

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 10:25 AM

V did not have plenty of time, given that V is aware of the 3 for 1 soul-splice deal. Whatever V does, V must do it as quickly as possible.

One standard action for a Vision spell is more time than ve could afford? Enduring three rounds of damnation in order to ensure you're not murdering innocents or allies seems like a tolerable sacrifice even for V, who'd spent longer than that explaining vir intentions to Mama's head. Plus, asking "Who would seek vengeance upon my family for this creature's death?" could've detected threats that the Familicide spell missed (i.e. potential avengers who weren't blood relatives) ... or obviated the need to invoke it at all, if Mama's relatives had no interest in payback and the answer was "Nobody".

The MunchKING

2009-03-21, 10:31 AM

it's from a movie, a Godfather one i think, but the rest of the phrase is -
"If They Pull a Knife, You Pull a Gun. If they kill one of your family, you kill ten of their's" or something like that

basically, whatever they did, you go one up on them, no matter how crazy or outrageous the deed.

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the MOURGE! THAT's the Chicago Way."

The Untouchables.

(Godfather takes place in NYC (And Italy))

The MunchKING

2009-03-21, 10:35 AM

Don't know if this has been covered yet, but I glanced and saw a lot of "How much XP is he getting?" statements..
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html
Panel 3. According to the contract, none..

Ah, but dude points out it IS possible, if you can get a high enough CR. Like say 60+ BlackDragons?

Mr. Scaly

2009-03-21, 10:36 AM

V's act was definitely evil. It is indiscriminate mass killing against creatures who have done nothing to provoke it, and might be Lawful Good paladins for all we know. It is not a Neutral act, but outright Evil, and profoundly so.

THANK YOU! I've been saying this over and over since this whole thread started.

Sebastian

2009-03-21, 10:46 AM

V did not have time, given that V is aware of the 3 for 1 soul-splice deal. Whatever V does, V must do it as quickly as possible.
so why waste time fighting rather than just cast Dominate and end the threat instantly? I tell you why, because he wanted to hurt her.

The very ironic thing is that V took the deal because she didn't want to admit her powers weren't enough to solve his problems, but the powers is using now are not his powers, so his powers are still failing him.

Shadowbane

2009-03-21, 10:48 AM

It's an evil act. Simply by the mass-murdering of creatures who had no real relation to V. Sure, it was black dragons, but the intent, methinks, was evil. In this case, that helps the action be evil.

xyzchyx

2009-03-21, 10:51 AM

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 10:52 AM

Ah, but dude points out it IS possible, if you can get a high enough CR. Like say 60+ BlackDragons?

I think V would have to be fighting the dragons to get xp for them, not nuking them from orbit. If inflicting mass destruction on monsters that are in no conceivable position to threaten you was worth xp, then Elan should've gained tons of experience for blowing up Dorukan's dungeon back at the beginning of the series.

Wolf_Plague

2009-03-21, 11:10 AM

Nah you don't want to kill everyone RELATED to ol' Adolf. You want something to kill everyone who WORKED for him.

You need Corpercide not Familicide.
Umm... That would be tens of millions people across the Europe...:smallconfused:

By the way, why everyone are makin' such a big deal out of death in OotS?
It is nothing but a transportation to another plane[t], they even got rotating doors in heaven, for Emperors sake!:smallmad:
ABD was fine, she was reunited with her son and husband and by "reunited" I don't mean "ROTTING ON THE SEA BOTTOM, MUAHAHA!", she actually was just living somewhere.
And this spell, "Familicide", granted nothing but medium discomfort to it's victims, in the sense of barring them from the material world. ABDs' "Familikillchildren-than-bind-their-souls-for-eternity" however... :smallyuk:

Particle_Man

2009-03-21, 11:15 AM

so why waste time fighting rather than just cast Dominate and end the threat instantly? I tell you why, because he wanted to hurt her.

Dominate would only last as long as the soul-splice did. At best, a stop-gap measure.

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 11:15 AM

Fargo1168

2009-03-21, 11:21 AM

Wait, so is every black dragon on the face of the earth dead, or is it just those related to the ABD? I mean, go back far enough, and everyone is related. I mean, common ancestry and such dictates that all black dragons are related by a common black dragon. How far black did this epic spell go? :smallconfused:

Airenus

2009-03-21, 11:24 AM

Is it just me or the comic has started to become way too serious?
If u compare the plot 100-200 strips back to now i think ull see less jokes and a more dramatic-serious atmosphere.

Wolf_Plague

2009-03-21, 11:36 AM

Because, in strip, murder does carry punishments (in War & XPs bonus strip, Roy tells Belkar he's looking at 20-30 years for second degree murder..

Maybe only adventurers can afford ressurrection with any frequency. And death may be reversable, but its hardly "just travelling to another plane."
Well, anyway, it still is more of "draining my relatives bank account for emergent medical procedures" than "terminating live functions irreversibly without knowing what will happen with subjects' consciousness".
I hold position of keeping loyalty to V's character, until this situation resolves in either genuine Fall of V, resulting in horrible consequences to actually Good N/PCs or V keeping h[cough!] true alignment to [cough!]self, returning back to normal condition or at least meeting h[ah-choo!] death without fear of Nine Hells.

On unrelated note - am I the only one, who finds all those gender jokes tasteless and unfunny to some degree, not speaking about watering down dramatic tension?

ocdscale

2009-03-21, 11:53 AM

And there's not a lot Tiamat can do about it at the moment because V is back 'home' in the northern continent; remember how Thor couldn't intervene in the Southern?

I think an earlier poster pointed out that the Order is likely going to the Western Continent eventually, if not soon (to secure Girard's gate I believe).
They're probably going to get an interesting greeting when they do arrive.

Lord Kamper

2009-03-21, 11:53 AM

Nice strip.
Pure ownage

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 11:55 AM

V is on the western continent- elven lands are described as being on the western continent in War & XPs. Tiamat is a member of the Western Gods pantheon.

werewolfjay

2009-03-21, 12:03 PM

i saw a lot of people asking this so i looked at the demons deal with v they say the soul splice prevents him from gaining exp for anything he kills and i have questions of my own can anyone make a list of those who will hate v for what he did (i want to see how long it can get) also do you think v will be kicked out of The Order of the Stick by Roy (he is dead so he could find out from archon and his dad or any good dragon that was killed) being that he has now caused more death than belkar(who can be restrained....a bit) and angered so many people( not including dragon fans who visit this site)

Raven the Rogue

2009-03-21, 12:03 PM

Wow.
That was pure, over the top evil.

aarondirebear

2009-03-21, 12:08 PM

StickFan291

2009-03-21, 12:16 PM

There is the dragon centaur and the one standing on two legs.
I wonder if the next strip will continue to show the dragons family tree branching out even more. Perhaps someone V knows or cares about could have a tiny bit of black dragon blood in them and could be killed by the spell :smalleek:

Anias

2009-03-21, 12:16 PM

First, I apologize if someone's already said this, but I didn't have time to read through all 10+ pages of discussion.

That being said, there are a lot of people claiming that the dragons will band together to attack V. To that, I say...SO WHAT??? If, with ONE of the souls bound to him, V can kill (at least) 63 dragons, instantly, with no saving throw, there's not really any number of dragons that can hurt him! He could let them surround him, cast time stop, and familicide EVERY ONE OF THEM! He has more power in him than, well, pretty much ANYONE, EVER.

What are the requirements to become a GOD? 'Cause I think V just outclassed everything living, dead, undead, and then some. He probably is powerful enough to kill a god, or perhaps a PANTHEON, were he so inclined. What can ANYONE do against a caster whose level is presumed to be in the 90s?

Anias

2009-03-21, 12:22 PM

... Perhaps someone V knows or cares about could have a tiny bit of black dragon blood in them and could be killed by the spell :smalleek:

I know a lot of people have said that, so I just have to link this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). Look at panel 3. It's probably just a joke, but...

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 12:22 PM

Places like Sigil (DMG, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook) and Union (Epic handbook) are examples of LN jurisdictions that have "killing fiends/evil undead is murder, if there was no provocation" as a general rule. Half-fiend gargoyle runs a shop in Union, and is Neutral, despite template being "always evil"

And chromatic dragons are marginally less evil than this.

now, this may apply more to "citizens" or "visitors to town" but it shows that alignment is not relevant when determining if a killing is murder or not

You are exactly right, in these jurisdictions evil entities are counted as citizens.

In most places, though, killing evil dragons is like putting down rabid beasts - an act of necessity and ultimately beneficial to the society. No "due process" for them - kill on sight, if possible (unless there is fear of retribution).

(Murder is a 5 Pt Corrupt (evil) act in Fiendish Codex 2.

Again, by what standards is putting down rabid beasts murder? Black dragons in 99% of the cases are even worse - they are consciously malignant and extremely powerful. I am certain FC does not include slaughter of "always evil" monsters in the course of adventuring as "murder". Otherwise, Lawful Good parties would've been neck-deep in Corruption, and spent all of their free time atoning for the "sins" of ridding the world of terrible menaces.

in BoVD, "reckless endangerment resulting in death" is considered evil, but not as evil as murder, in the sample act given, showing difference between accident, endangerment, and "sacrificing innocents to save yourself"

So, while it may not matter to V's family, it does if you're judging how evil (or not evil) it was.

Are you consciously ignoring my remark that BoED is about Good, and not Neutrality?

Seriously, is this "evil/not evil" dichotomy some kind of 4th edition thing?

Rotipher

2009-03-21, 12:32 PM

That being said, there are a lot of people claiming that the dragons will band together to attack V. To that, I say...SO WHAT??? If, with ONE of the souls bound to him, V can kill (at least) 63 dragons, instantly, with no saving throw, there's not really any number of dragons that can hurt him! He could let them surround him, cast time stop, and familicide EVERY ONE OF THEM! He has more power in him than, well, pretty much ANYONE, EVER.

And when the Splice ends, V will be a flimsy little elf-flavored chew toy.

LuisDantas

2009-03-21, 12:39 PM

Again, by what standards is putting down rabid beasts murder? Black dragons in 99% of the cases are even worse - they are consciously malignant and extremely powerful.

That is the point. Black Dragons are conscious and very intelligent. Whatever circunstances could justify the blanket statement that they are "always evil" simply can't be so decisive as to always overcome their potential for good. They are not rabid, much less beasts. On the contrary, they are very intelligent beings with sophisticated perceptions and reason.

It is simply not possible for each and every member of such a group to be always, consistently evil.

hamishspence

2009-03-21, 12:40 PM

Actually, its a 2nd ed thing- a bunch of spells which got evil descriptor in 3rd ed were described as "casting this spell is not a good act, and only evil creatures do it regularly."

BoED defines some acts as evil- its not only for Good. Neutrals who wish to avoid slipping (over a medium-length period of time) should pay attention.

The distinction between Good adventuring and non-good? They aren't out for profit, but out to defend people. They go after the monster reported attacking towns, they don't go in search of monsters to kill for loot alone, and they don't go after monsters that have no evidence of caused harm.

If they are attacked, they defend themselves, and if monster refuses offer of quarter, or gives them no opportunity to make the offer, defense can mean killing the monster, and thats fine.

sabremeister

2009-03-21, 12:43 PM

Woah! Epic comic. There's such a lot going on here, I just couldn't resist de-lurking to burble about it. Let's take it panel-by-panel

Panel 1: is the evil souls relishing the horrific victory they have just assisted V in against the dragon. Nothing much here, but next panel ...
Panel 2: the evil souls demand more munching on dragon-kibbles, as V shape-changes back to her old self.
Panel 3: V frees her mate from being nailed to the tree[1], enquiring after his and their adopted children's[2] health. So far, we've seen that V is still largely in control, still showing signs of compassion. Then ...
Panel 4: V cuts short her mate's bewildered and emotional question with a demand for a simple straight answer. This could simply be V keeping down the time in the splice, but context - the fact that she does not offer any other help, like teleporting them to a temple, or retrieving magically some healing potions - implies that V is rather dealing with formalities before finishing the main business.
Panel 5: "Because I am not done with the dragon". Good/Neutral V might mean several things here. Is she going to burn the body? Collect the fresh blood for potion ingredients? Skin it and sell the hide to an armourer? Evil V does mean something else.
Panel 6: The evil souls are complaining that they have hardly done anything - they've provided spell slots and additional spells, but not done anything really huge or really evil. V concurs. She wants to bring the dragon back, wants to make it suffer. V has already been shown to be arrogant and convinced that magic is the best, indeed only, tool, with which to accomplish anything - and twice in as many minutes this has been thrown back in her face. Once by the IFCC reminding her that without selling her soul to them, her family will be horribly killed, and once by the ABD shrugging off V's spells and pounding her into the ground whilst using an anti-magic field. So V needs to re-affirm her belief in magical power, and what better way to do it than to demonstrate the superiority of said magical power by using it to bring a recently-killed enemy back to life and taunting/torturing it?
Panel 7: seems to imply that V is once again leaning towards Neutrality or Goodness. She assures the dragon's spirit that it will be with it's family in the afterlife again soon, implying that this is just a last, "in your face!" from V. However ...
Panel 8: V states the facts - if the dragon had not chosen to involve V's family, V would have left things as they are, and would not take any further steps she sees as necessary to prevent harm to her family from a similar series of events (namely, a vengeful relative of the recently deceased black dragon). What might she do, use the dragon's body as a material component to construct a ward spell around the house? Or something else?
Panel 9: We now see that V is lost to the power, and has become evil. The clues? Simple. "One of my new friends ..." - one of the evil spellcasters whose soul has been spliced onto hers by a committee of arch-demons, in other words. "... has a special epic necromancy spell ..." - since when have necromancers been anything but evil? Using one necromantic spell to kill the ABD I could see as acceptable, but the first necromantic spell V cast was to raise the dead (always a bad sign), and the second is apparently going to be much worse. "... for just such an occasion as this." - what occasion? Could this be actually the ward-creating spell? But remember, this is a particularly evil necromancer. Next come the voices - the necromancer obviously knows what's coming, the other two are eager to see what will happen, and know they will enjoy seeing it happen. "She calls it -"
Panel 10: "Familicide!" And the necromancer's spirit manifests. Perhaps V could not cast such a powerful epic-level spell[3] without the one who originally had the power to cast it manifesting, or perhaps the enthusiasm V shows allows the necromancer to become visible. Either way, it proves V's evil credentials. If V wasn't completely evil now, the necromancer would not have manifested. The dragon, being intelligent enough to cast high level spells, realises what the spell does, and begs for mercy in the only way left. V allows the spell to proceed.
Panel 11:V gleefully levitates the undead dragon's head, so that the spell can find its way out of the forest surroundings easily, ignoring the terrified anguished looks of her mate and children, who, incidentally, are still badly injured. The spell departs around the world.
Panel 12: The spell finds matches to the ABD's family-group around the world, and strikes...
Panels 13-15: The first match, a black dragon defending its' hoard from adventurers, is killed outright, instantly, leaving the adventurers disappointed at the loss of XP.
Panels 16-71: 61 black dragons are killed, including 4 hatchlings, a young dragon probably equivalent to younger than V's children, three half-dragons, and what could be a courting couple of adult black dragons.

This is not genocide, as some have said. Dragons live to be thousands of years old, so even ABD that V burst out of is likely to have a living grandparent or maybe even great-grandparent. And the more generations the spell can go back, the more branches it can come back down. Suppose the great-grandparent had a sibling - each of both of their children will be killed, as will their children. Uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews, cousins, once- twice- thrice-removed could all easily be targeted by familicide. Although I suspect the spell was considerably more effective than usual, due to V's artificially-enhanced caster level.

As for Tiamat, God of Dragons - V is on the Western Continent, Tiamat is a Western god, I expect she'll turn up to exact vengeance right after the soul-splice ends. If ever. After feeling what this much power feels like to use, will V want to let go of it? Could she if she wanted to, even? Might not the evil souls spliced to hers be showing a greater degree of control? You could argue that V, being naturally Neutral, is merely using the evil tools at her disposal to get the job done - but enjoying the power, why should she let go of it? Or you could say that V has no control over her actions, it is all at the whim of the spliced souls - so how ill V be able to release the splice?

And what about the Oracle? Why didn't he warn the ABD about this? Unless what we've seen isn't "Ultimate Arcane Power", there's something bigger further down the line, he must, almost by definition, know it was going to happen. Unless - his power is granted by a god, what if he can't see the results of fiendish intervention? He knew fiends would give V UAP, but because they are fiends, the Gods cannot scry on them as accurately or consistently as they can mortals, and so would not know when V would get the power, or what she would do with it. And also, if the Oracle warned the ABD outside of his oracular trance, she wouldn't remember it, and unless he broke his "one customer, one question" policy, unless the ABD worded her question extremely carefully, she'd never know.

I think that's everything.

[1] Douglas Adams, in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, noted that the events of the story took place "2000 years after some guy got nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be if everyone was nice to each other for a change". Could this be some sort of parallel, with V's mate being the only one who can offer a hope of redemption for V?
[2] Despite it being explicitly stated so in #631, some people still seem to think that V is a biological parent. While it would be dramatically ironic for V's mate to be distantly related to the ABD, hence including him in the familicide spell, it would be extremely unlikely - there is an even lower chance that their adopted children are related.
[3] How would it work? A cascade reaction, probably, using the dead body of the target to serve as "reaction mass" for the first kill, the spell lashes out to find others that fit the criteria. The first match fails the saving throw and dies, its' life energy ripped from it. The life energy follows the path of the magic, and acts as the power to kill the next match, whose life energy is also ripped out of it, and sent looking for the next one. And so on, and so on. Until the spell finds the last match, and fizzles out, the last packet of life energy returning to the initial target, and re-converting into inert matter. You could probably have illuminated China for three years on the energy that was released.

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 12:49 PM

First, I apologize if someone's already said this, but I didn't have time to read through all 10+ pages of discussion.

Not a good start, IMHO.

That being said, there are a lot of people claiming that the dragons will band together to attack V. To that, I say...SO WHAT??? If, with ONE of the souls bound to him, V can kill (at least) 63 dragons, instantly,

...then when the splice ends, he'd still be unable to kill even one.

And they'll have plenty of fun with him, his family, and his friends. For ever and ever.

with no saving throw

Says who?

there's not really any number of dragons that can hurt him! He could let them surround him, cast time stop, and familicide EVERY ONE OF THEM!

And if they just happened to be unrelated? And epic spellcasters have a very limited number of epic spells per day. And Wyrms who took some levels in Sorceror can cast Time Stop themselves. Killing V, despite his arcane power, is actually very very easy if you have the spells and have the jump on him (he's a chump, didn't even cast Moment of Prescience, Foresight or Astral Projection yet).

He has more power in him than, well, pretty much ANYONE, EVER.

Forgetting about the outsiders and the gods.

He probably is powerful enough to kill a god, or perhaps a PANTHEON, were he so inclined. What can ANYONE do against a caster whose level is presumed to be in the 90s?

What's so special about level 90 as compared to, say, level 40? Slightly higher primary casting stat? More hp? More epic spells per day? Higher Spellcraft skill? A few more feats?

Gods, they operate on a different level. Salient abilities and all that. Just out of curiosity - how would V kill Tiamat, for instance?

the_tick_rules

2009-03-21, 12:56 PM

Holy freaking crap!!!! Considering how long dragons live V just laid the smack down on a freaking ton. Even with her massive EL she's still might get a ton of xp.

Cabeza

2009-03-21, 12:56 PM

Them dragons cannot die! They shouldn't! Therefore, I, Cabeza, begin a revolt begging to take them all back to life! Imagine if suddenly you are killed by Epic Spell: Familicide and all of your genetically similar people (of same family, colour of hair, eyes and skin) are killed with no reason at all! Wouldn't be funny, isn't it?! What if those dragons had no intention of doing any harm to V's family? This is madness! :smallfrown:

The MunchKING

2009-03-21, 01:03 PM

And if they just happened to be unrelated? And epic spellcasters have a very limited number of epic spells per day. And Wyrms who took some levels in Sorceror can cast Time Stop themselves.

Not to mention you can't hurt people during Time Stop.

What's so special about level 90 as compared to, say, level 40? Slightly higher primary casting stat? More hp? More epic spells per day? Higher Spellcraft skill? A few more feats?

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

All of which can add up to serious Mojo over the course 0f 50+ levels.

Gods, they operate on a different level. Salient abilities and all that. Just out of curiosity - how would V kill Tiamat, for instance?

Gods have set HP numbers and stats In Deities and Demigods. Thus ENOUGH blasting and even one of them would fall. It would take the mightiest of mighty Epic Magics, but Heck we've already SEEN one ungodly powerful Epic spell.

Undead Prince

2009-03-21, 01:11 PM

Actually, its a 2nd ed thing- a bunch of spells which got evil descriptor in 3rd ed were described as "casting this spell is not a good act, and only evil creatures do it regularly."

Same in 3rd edition. See BoVD.

BoED defines some acts as evil- its not only for Good. Neutrals who wish to avoid slipping (over a medium-length period of time) should pay attention.

Okay. Let's quote.

Violence is a part of the D&D world, and not inherently evil in the context of that world. The deities of good equip their heroes not just to be meek and humble servants, but to be
their fists and swords, their champions in a brutal war against the forces of evil. A paladin smiting a blackguard or a blue dragon is not committing an evil act: the cause of good expects and often demands that violence be brought to bear against its enemies.

That said, there are certain limits upon the use of violence
that good characters must observe. First, violence in the name of good must have just cause, which in the D&D world means primarily that it must be directed against evil. It is certainly possible for a good nation to declare war upon another good nation, but fighting in such a conflict is not a good act. In fact, even launching a war upon a nearby tribe of evil orcs is not necessarily good if the attack comes without provocation... violence is an appropriate means of
stopping further acts of evil (as opposed to paying back evil already committed).

I gave the full quote so that the logic is more evident.

First, Good is on the table, not Neutrality.

Second, attacking evil creatures without provocation may be good, and is certainly not said to be evil. So, generally it's a neutral act, but can be good if done, for instance, to prevent future acts of evil. And it's enough to look into Black dragon entry in the MM to see that they won't be planning anything but acts of evil.

The distinction between Good adventuring and non-good? They aren't out for profit, but out to defend people. They go after the monster reported attacking towns, they don't go in search of monsters to kill for loot alone, and they don't go after monsters that have no evidence of caused harm.

BoED disagrees with you. If there's a chance that evil creatures may do harm in the future, it may be a good act to slay them preventively.

And a bit about dragons:

Of course, good characters recognize that some creatures are utterly beyond redemption. Most creatures described in the Monster Manual as “always evil” are either completely irredeemable or so intimately tied to evil that they are almost entirely hopeless. Certainly demons and devils are best slain, or at least banished, and only a naïve fool would try to convert them. Evil dragons might not be entirely beyond salvation, but there is truly only the barest glimmer of hope.

So generally, it's ok for good characters to slay evil dragons on sight. And for neutral characters, it's not even a question.