Vaarsuvius has not looked at his family once

[Kranden]

Not once since he arrived home.

The dragon is far more important.....

[X2]

His family are just... ugly man...

Ugly... he has to put a bag on his kids' heads to kiss 'em good night.

[Kranden]

Or better yet cast invisibility on them.

[Jayngfet]

Um, it's been thirty seconds and there's a huge dragon in the way.

[derfenrirwolv]

V is treating his family like an object of victory, something to protect because they're a contested object, not the people he loves.

I do hope V has a road to redemption. Being neutral and power hungry shouldnt always HAVE to descend into full blown evil. Its possible for people acting in their own interests to do the right thing anyway.

Hmmm.. V's spouse was nailed up on a tree. I wonder if her* willingness to forgive Momma Black Dragon will be the thing that leads to V's redemption/sanity. crystal dragon Elf Jesus?

[Narthon the Bold]

And now it is doing some petty killing instead of helping them out and dropping everything.

[evileeyore]

V is treating his family like an object of victory, something to protect because they're a contested object, not the people he loves.

I disagree. If there was no love, Suvie wouldn't have asked if their injuries were life threatening.


As it is I have a feeling Vaarsuvius is remaining focused on the goal, exterminate all and any possible threats to Vaarsuvius' family, then Vaarsuvius will release the Splice. Any deviation of focus, any weakness and the Splice could end before Vaarsuvius has achieved Vaarsuvius' goal.


As for not looking at the family, would want to gaze lovingly on your family with the eyes of vile killers behind yours? Would you want to hear what the evil souls will whisper to you to do to them? How to treat them?

I wouldn't.

[Nenec]

Really, at this point he's so insensitive I'm surprised he didn't kill them. Well, maybe it was cause they're the proof he didn't fail. At least he cared to ask them if they were risking their life and relieved mate from knives. We.. Suvie is no longer an appropriate way to kill him anyway.
And what about the: "a yes or no will suffice"? :smallmad:

[snafu]

And what about the: "a yes or no will suffice"? :smallmad:

That was the part that upset me. Exterminating hundreds of dragons... well, V's an adventurer. Slaying dragons is what adventurers do. But speaking to her spouse that way... well, that's disturbing. That's the evil within changing V in more ways than just egging her on to ever greater overkill against the dragon. She still keeps her objectives in sight: slay the dragon, protect her family. But beyond that there's no sympathy on display, no concern. Once she learns that their injuries are not immediately life-threatening she considers herself entirely free to amuse herself with a little bit of pre-emptive genocide.

That severed dragon head isn't going anywhere: she could teleport her family to the nearest temple for healing and then come back and finish the job. But V's priority is to gain her own satisfaction and torment the dragon, rather than to relieve her loved ones' very substantial pain. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of killing black dragons en masse, that's surely an evil attitude to take.

[derfenrirwolv]

I disagree. If there was no love, Suvie wouldn't have asked if their injuries were life threatening.


If they die, V looses. Their pain and suffering is secondary to him as opposed to making sure he WINS, for good, by whiping out the black dragons family.

A few polymorph spells would heal the family up. I don't think he wants to go near a temple right about now.

hmmm.. his wife was nailed up to a tree.I wonder if her forgiving the black dragon momma would be enough to snap V back to his senses.

[s]Crystal dragon[/2] elf Jesus reference?

[HeirToPendragon]

I think s/he is just too ashamed to look at them after what s/he has done to shimself

[Quorothorn]

And now it is doing some petty killing instead of helping them out and dropping everything.

I would hardly call genociding the black dragon race petty (woot), at least in scope.


And seriously people, as Jayngfet, evileeyore and HeirToPendragon pointed out, there are explanations for V not looking at her family besides "OMG she doesn't care about them etc". Stop jumping on the wizard at every opportunity.

[Belkster11]

The whole "A yes or no will suffice" is just another way of quicly saying: "Are you all right? Tell me quickly!"

Keep in mind that V has a dragon to deal with, so he's checking to see if they needed to be treated immediatly before he finishes the dragon off.

Yes he seems very cold (and the whole familycide thing was too overboard) but I think that's basically it. Once 'Suvie knew his family wasn't going to die within the next couple of seconds, he could be free to finish it.

There are many things to explain why he's not looking at them.

[Quorothorn]

The whole "A yes or no will suffice" is just another way of quicly saying: "Are you all right? Tell me quickly!"

Keep in mind that V has a dragon to deal with, so he's checking to see if they needed to be treated immediatly before he finishes the dragon off.

Yes he seems very cold (and the whole familycide thing was too overboard) but I think that's basically it. Once 'Suvie knew his family wasn't going to die within the next couple of seconds, he could be free to finish it.

There are many things to explain why he's not looking at them.

Exactly. That's just how V talks. We all have known this for a long time.

[Nenec]

Keep in mind that V has a dragon to deal with, so he's checking to see if they needed to be treated immediatly before he finishes the dragon off.

Ehm...the dragon was dead already. I don't think she was able to go anywhere, so what the rush? Oh, yeah, vengeance + self amusement is far more important than explaining your family why their beloved is incarning evil.


Stop jumping on the wizard at every opportunity.

If I was a kangooroo I'd do it, really. Just for a little fun. :smallbiggrin:

[TiamatRoar]

The rush was to kill the dragon's extended family before one of the extended family could find out what had just happened and make counter measures. For all Suvvie knew, maybe there was a super powerful wizard dragon out there who could telepathically discover what Suvvie had just done and put up magic wards before going to finish the job of killing Suvvie's family if Suvvie didn't use Familicide to kill that dragon RIGHT NOW. It's a stretch, but Suvvie isn't exactly in the state of mind to take chances right now :P

[Thajocoth]

V needed the splice to cast the spell. V wants to release the splice ASAP. That's why the dragon comes first. Every round V delays is 3 rounds that V's a potential threat to anyone near V. So, stopping to ask if they're ok, and to pull out the nails was already a risk. Haste is a necessity at this juncture.

[Lissou]

I interpreted the whole thing differently, although I might be wrong.

The way I saw it, V is having trouble keeping the 3 evil killers in check. It's causing him to overkill with familicide, but he's making sure it's not causing him to hurt his family.
So a) he doesn't look at them, if he ignores them as much as possible the evil guys won't be able to make him hurt them for the sake of it
and b) he's trying to keep it short. The longer it takes, the harder it is, remember? If he can get his spouse to just say "yes or no", it might allow him to resist the evil guys long enough to finish his job and go away because he goes berserk.

It could just be a faulty interpretation, but I know I can be like that (without the familicide, obviously). If I'm very focused on a task and I know I could snap at my husband for disrupting my concentration, I interrupt him and ask him to go faster. As much as I know it can be blunt and hurtful, it hurts him less than my snapping for good. Then I can focus on my task, complete it and go apologise to him and make sure he's feeling ok.

The familicide was total overkill, but the way he acts with his family? I could see that. It's a way of protecting them by not letting them get close enough that they get a lot more hurt.

[derfenrirwolv]

Every round V delays is 3 rounds that V's a potential threat to anyone near V. So, stopping to ask if they're ok, and to pull out the nails was already a risk. Haste is a necessity at this juncture.

I believe that is true, but I don't think V beleives that yet.

When he accepted the splice, he said that every moment being tortured would be worth it because of the final reward afterwards... in other words, V thinks that the IFCC gets his soul for 3 x (t) once he dies, and then he can move onto his final reward.

He's not getting off that easy.

[R. Malcovitch]

Why does everyone keep assuming the IFCC wants to make V hurt other people? They want to use him because of the her involvement with the gates; The snarl is the perfect superweapon needed to create the angel blood watercoolers of their dreams. The IFCC is using V as a scout, and will splice him to another arcane caster (maybe one of V's "new friends") but with V as the subordinate, and warps the gates ala Redcloak's plan.

[Kaytara]

I think the bluntness of that particular line could also have been a defensive reaction to the Mate's question and shocked tone. Vaarsuvius doesn't quite want to explain exactly what happened to him or even ponder it, so he fends off any more potential inquiries by making the Mate get straight to the point.

Still, V DOES sound rather cold here. I'd chalk it up to the evil souls' influence. They're already making V act in a rather uncharacteristic manner, like grinning evilly when casting all those spells. Vaarsuvius doesn't smile when casting spells. He looks stern, or angry, or determined. The only exceptions I can think of are his pranks with Belkar.
And that is not to mention the evil laugh in 635, or the sadistic taunting in 637, or calling the NecroLady one of his "new friends". Pre-634 Vaarsuvius has clearly shown that he does not consider deals with Evil creatures, even puny imps, to be a good idea, intelligence or no.

In short, it seems that, as the fiends already mentioned, the Soul Splice completely switched V's alignment to Evil, and, as befitting such an incarnation of evil, V is rather numb to any prickling of conscience or compassion at the moment.

[Godskook]

Also, V might be ashamed of hirself. Conversing with or showing emotion towards hir mate and children would weaken V's resolve, and thus weaken the splice. That has multiple consequences. It could give the others more control of V or it could end the splice prematurely. Since V still believes that hir family is at risk(the truth of that belief is irrelevant here), V certainly doesn't want to risk losing the splice prematurely.

[Ridureyu]

Again, I really, REALLY hope that V's mate expresses displeasure at this, so V kills both mate and the children. After today's comic, amend it:

V should kill the children first, rip them to shreds, smear their little stick-figure guts on mate, and then kill mate.

And then we'd have people posting, "This was not an evil act.":smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Ehm...the dragon was dead already. I don't think she was able to go anywhere, so what the rush? Oh, yeah, vengeance + self amusement is far more important than explaining your family why their beloved is incarning evil.

One possibility is that the epic spell must be cast quickly. Soul Bind is not the only spell that must be cast quickly or not at all. And the spell is insanely overpowered as it is. So a limit to only a few rounds after the dragon's death makes some sense. If so, V checks if the family can survive first, indicating 1st priority, and then can take a little time to deal with the dragon "threat". The family can wait the round or so that takes, and can then be transported to a cleric like Durkon.

V is just doing business before pleasure. There is no particular evidence here of neglect of family.

[Kranden]

Again, I really, REALLY hope that V's mate expresses displeasure at this, so V kills both mate and the children. After today's comic, amend it:

V should kill the children first, rip them to shreds, smear their little stick-figure guts on mate, and then kill mate.

And then we'd have people posting, "This was not an evil act.":smallbiggrin:

Or trying to claim he is still neutral or some garbage :P

[Ridureyu]

Hm. Looking at my past posts on the same matter, I have gone from wanting V to kill his/her family to wantying V to slaughter the kids first, smear stick-figure guts ont he amte, and then kill...

...Wow, this comic is making me bloodthirsty. I'm gonna go watch Fist of the North Star for a while. Feel better.

[Pyron]

Not once since he arrived home.

Was there a time when V even thought about his family? There was one time when she looked back on her wedding, but was that it?

In the 630 strips of this comic, everything we know about V's character is that she lusts for arcane power and the story never hinted about her having children. Thinking about everything that transpired in the story: from learning that the world housed the snarl and facing death on several occasions, you'd think V would have the compassion to think about them and maybe, I dunno, cast a sending spell to check on them.

[awibs]

I think his priorities are straight. He can't hold onto the splice forever - it has been implied he could lose hold of it at any moment. Just because the *other* souls are motivated by schadenfreude doesn't mean V is. He explicitly monologues that he is committing Familicide to eradicate all threat to his family by potential vengeance-seekers. He is motivated to do it quickly because he doesn't know how long he will be capable of it. Sometimes one has to be brusque to people you love in emergencies where you don't have time to stop and explain. Anyone who has worked in emergency-response of any kind - be this police, fire, EMT, or emergency rooms at hospitals - can attest to the fact that panicking, emotional people often make ineffectual choices, such as blathering, crying, screaming, flailing, or any number of things that are detrimental and delaying to helpful response. Sometimes you really have to tell them to shut the hell up and cooperate NOW for their own good. This would be true still if their injuries were immediately life-threatening - a prompt and succinct yes would enable him to greater teleport them to a healer with much less delay than stopping to explain what happened to him.

I think he hasn't stopped to look at his family because it is much more so for their greater good that he do a lot of other things as promptly as possible.

[Pyron]

Actually, according to the fiend's words: V is in control of her actions during the splice. Right now, there is no evidence that V is not in control.

V's priorities are not straight. The ABD is already dead and no immediate threat to her family. How exactly is making sure that every last dragon in the ABD's family line at that exact moment more important than tending to her family's wounds?

This is not about V not stopping to explain or comfort her family because treating their injuries are more important. This is about V not stopping to explain or comfort them because the dragon's suffering is more important than their well being. I really don't see why she couldn't at least look at her family. Remember, there are no facing rules in D&D.

The idea of V teleporting her family to a healer, if their injuries were life threatening, is a stretch. There was nothing to stop her from doing that with her family's current injuries.

Then again, the whole justification for V ignoring her family is the assumption that she needed to cast Famlicide right now, this very second, or she lose the chance.

[Prak]

I disagree. If there was no love, Suvie wouldn't have asked if their injuries were life threatening.


As it is I have a feeling Vaarsuvius is remaining focused on the goal, exterminate all and any possible threats to Vaarsuvius' family, then Vaarsuvius will release the Splice. Any deviation of focus, any weakness and the Splice could end before Vaarsuvius has achieved Vaarsuvius' goal.


As for not looking at the family, would want to gaze lovingly on your family with the eyes of vile killers behind yours? Would you want to hear what the evil souls will whisper to you to do to them? How to treat them?

I wouldn't.
Meh, if they evil souls said a damned thing about my family i would hold the splice long enough to research a spell which allowed me to confron them within a demiplane and smack the crap out of each of them personally. When I got to each fiend's realm I would ask if my servitude could be to personally torment that soul and would proceed to drill into each of their petitioner heads "EVIL. DOESN'T. MEAN. DOING. HORRIBLE. THINGS. TO. YOUR. FAMILY!!"

but then... I'm already evil, and them telling me to do horrible things to my family just gives evil a bad image...


The whole "A yes or no will suffice" is just another way of quicly saying: "Are you all right? Tell me quickly!"
more than that, it's a very V way to put it.


calling the NecroLady one of his "new friends"
I think that was more of a "I've got some good friends in my back pocket, named Andrew and Benjamin, that might convince you otherwise" kinda "new friend"

well, ok, more of a "My new friends Heckler and Kosch, and Smith and Wessen might disagree with you"

[Spiky]

I disagree. If there was no love, Suvie wouldn't have asked if their injuries were life threatening.


As it is I have a feeling Vaarsuvius is remaining focused on the goal, exterminate all and any possible threats to Vaarsuvius' family, then Vaarsuvius will release the Splice. Any deviation of focus, any weakness and the Splice could end before Vaarsuvius has achieved Vaarsuvius' goal.
Do you not see these 2 are contradictory? The goal was supposedly to protect his family. We have proof from the lips of V and the Oracle that this is NOT the case.


As for not looking at the family, would want to gaze lovingly on your family with the eyes of vile killers behind yours? Would you want to hear what the evil souls will whisper to you to do to them? How to treat them?

I wouldn't.
That's assuming V is in complete control of the 3 epic spellcasters. And in control of himself. He is clearly neither.

[Spiky]

Again, I really, REALLY hope that V's mate expresses displeasure at this, so V kills both mate and the children. After today's comic, amend it:

V should kill the children first, rip them to shreds, smear their little stick-figure guts on mate, and then kill mate.

And then we'd have people posting, "This was not an evil act.":smallbiggrin:

I love you, man. :belkar:

[McMurphy]

Whoo, Varsuvius sounded cold. :smalleek:

If I'd remember of any quotes of V or...Spock for example, sounding 'warm', I started a search. But I don't.
That's just how V talks. We all have known this for a long time.I don't think (s)he will ever make it to heartbreaker-level.

[Fireballing_Fun]

I just realised, V is a female!

When talking to his mate he is clearly the dominant partner, thats always the woman!

Huzzah... mystery solved!

[Kaytara]

I think that was more of a "I've got some good friends in my back pocket, named Andrew and Benjamin, that might convince you otherwise" kinda "new friend"

well, ok, more of a "My new friends Heckler and Kosch, and Smith and Wessen might disagree with you"

Yeah, but what makes it sound weird is that, to the best of my knowledge, Vaarsuvius has not used the word friend since comic 58 or so.


Actually, according to the fiend's words: V is in control of her actions during the splice.
Also according to their words: V was just the next customer down the line and they gained nothing except good evil publicity by helping him. Qarr calls them out on it in a way that makes it look like they flat out lied.
If they lied about this, as well, it would be only fitting. "You'll be more or less in control, but there's a chance the other souls might nudge you into committing irredeemably evil acts that will damn you for all eternity" doesn't sound quite so convincing, does it?


Right now, there is no evidence that V is not in control.
I disagree. There is plenty of evidence. I challenge you to find me one instance - just one - of un-Spliced Vaarsuvius laughing in the comic.
Vaarsuvius doesn't laugh. He doesn't smile all that much, either. He's never laughed or smiled while casting spells in a battle, either. He's always stern and determined when casting spells.

Vaarsuvius bursting into laughter - and evil laughter, at that - and spending the majority of the battle smiling sadistically clearly goes against his established character - and clearly within the established character of the three most powerful EVIL spellcasters to have ever lived.
Besides, if Vaarsuvius were completely in control of himself, the "Don't let them influence your actions!" part wouldn't even have needed mentioning.
An alternate explanation is that Vaarsuvius has simply gone mad with power - but even then it's still madness that directly resulted from the Soul Splice. If V's mad, then he's not himself, thus Vaarsuvius is not completely in control. There's a reason insane people get to plead insanity.


V's priorities are not straight. The ABD is already dead and no immediate threat to her family. How exactly is making sure that every last dragon in the ABD's family line at that exact moment more important than tending to her family's wounds?

Then again, the whole justification for V ignoring her family is the assumption that she needed to cast Famlicide right now, this very second, or she lose the chance.

Well, let's not forget that the reason tending to someone's wounds is a high priority in real life is that the injuries get worse with each passing second.
In DnD, though, normal injuries do not seem to cause significant blood loss, all that much pain or the expected inhibitions. We do not see Parent crying out in pain upon standing on feet that were previously pierced by nails.
So it makes perfect sense for Vaarsuvius to try and make maximum use of the Soul Splice instead, while it lasts.

I think the souls are in fact influencing V very much, to the point of making him far more evil, ruthless, heartless and sadistic than he actually is (alignment feedback, as the fiends called it). That, along with a not yet satisfied need for some therapeutic tormenting of the dragon, as well as pseudo-pragmatism, is what makes V act this way towards his family. He's still far too focussed on extracting payback from the dragon to think about his family beyond in purely logical terms.

[evileeyore]

Do you not see these 2 are contradictory?

No. Can you remain focused on one goal whilst still loving your family? I can.


The goal was supposedly to protect his family. We have proof from the lips of V and the Oracle that this is NOT the case.

Your conflating things.

The goal, killing the ABD and her family, is "Protect my Family", the reason Vaarsuvius accepted the power was the exact same thing.

Just because they are "all the wrong reasons" does not make them not the reasons. Just the "wrong" ones. As in, not the right reason to take on "Complete and Total Arcane Mastery".



That's assuming V is in complete control of the 3 epic spellcasters. And in control of himself. He is clearly neither.

I see no proof of this, infact the Fiends stated Vaarsuvius would remain in complete control for so long as Vaarsuvius held the Splice.

Point out some proof of your statement.

[Souju]

If I suddenly became a monstrosity of evil magic, I wouldn't wanna look the people I love the most in the face either.
That, and if he/she did, he/she knows there's a chance he/she could lose focus, not a good thing when fighting a black dragon with nothing to lose and a personal grudge against you.

[Zolem]

I see no proof of this, infact the Fiends stated Vaarsuvius would remain in complete control for so long as Vaarsuvius held the Splice.

Point out some proof of your statement.

So...you're taking the word of fiends that have already proven dishonest and manipulative that Vs radical new behavior is because she's in full control of the splice and all these uncharecteristicly brutal acts are free from teh influence of the otehr souls. So what you are saying is taht if V is in controll, she is actual quite evil when she aquires power and is evil enough that once she hits the epics she'll become a terror to the multiverse liek the souls bound to her were. I personal prefer to think that THE INTERDIMENTIONAL LITERAL INCARNATIONS OF EVIL LIED!

[David Argall]

Also according to their words: V was just the next customer down the line and they gained nothing except good evil publicity by helping him. Qarr calls them out on it in a way that makes it look like they flat out lied.
If they lied about this, as well, it would be only fitting. "You'll be more or less in control, but there's a chance the other souls might nudge you into committing irredeemably evil acts that will damn you for all eternity" doesn't sound quite so convincing, does it?

As we think we understand it, the fiends are planning on using V as a tool to seize control of the gate. This use of V depends on the contract between V and fiends. That means any flaw in fiend wordage that can be deemed a major lie is enough to void the contract and ruin their entire plan.
Few if any courts will void a contract on the grounds that the salesman called the retail price "once in a lifetime". But saying "You will be in control" when V was not is potentially grounds for voiding the contract. And the more serious influence the souls have on V, the more chance the contract is void and the fiends lose their shot at the gate.
The fiends would be happy to have V as a permanent "guest", but she is still just small time for them. Given the stakes, they are unlikely to risk it.

[Logalmier]

V's being powered by three different souls that are so irredeemably evil it's freaking scary. Who spends there time and energy creating spells that wipe out someones whole family? Or who conquers whole worlds? Or who tries to tear down all of creation? Essentially V is having three sickeningly evil maniacs whispering different thoughts in her ear. I'd be a little cold-harted to my mate if I was in the same situation.
Besides, what does V care about his family in a time like this? He left her family just to go and study magic. The dragon is an obstacle that V's magic was previously unable to overcome, just like not being able to find Haley or not being able to save those Azurite soldiers. V's family are second string compared to that.

[multilis]

...But speaking to her spouse that way... well, that's disturbing. That's the evil within changing V in more ways than just egging her on to ever greater overkill against the dragon....
I disagree, that may be one of only *sensible* things V is doing. Any extra time V spends with splice puts *entire planet* more at risk. So there is an urgency to do what is needed and turn splice off asap.

(IMO should never have been done, the needs of many outweigh needs of few, V worst case could have tried going to oracle and asking questions later... someone powerful on good side should be willing to help if V resisted IFCC)

[Porthos]

I disagree, that may be one of only *sensible* things V is doing. Any extra time V spends with splice puts *entire planet* more at risk. So there is an urgency to do what is needed and turn splice off asap.

V doesn't know this tho. As far as he is concerned the Triple Time Blow Back only occurs when he is dead. So if he spends two or three rounds comforting his partner, no big deal. The fact that V is acting far colder than he ever has (compare how he treats Haley and how he is treating his partner) speaks volumes right now.

Not even a single word of sympathy. That's pure cold, IMO.

[evileeyore]

V doesn't know this tho. As far as he is concerned the Triple Time Blow Back only occurs when he is dead. So if he spends two or three rounds comforting his partner, no big deal.

That's remarkably stupid. Every extra round that Vaarsuvius takes away from finishing the job (to comfort the family*) are rounds any Backup Plans the dragon could have made could come to fruition. Also the Splice could end at any moment, sure fiends talked up how easy it would be for Vaarsuvius to "control when it ends" but they also very explicitly said "as long as you can hold it", which implies Vaarsuvius' conrtol could slip at any moment. Why possibly blow your one shot at forever ending this threat to comfort your family when in less than aminute you spend as much time as you want comforting them once the job is done and the Splice is released.



* This also presumes Suvie was the type to "comfort", which fankly, so far that doesn't seem to be in Vaarsuvius' nature.


That's pure cold, IMO.

It also shows no weakness to the Souls Vaarsuvius is controlling. It shows Vaarsuvius is their Master and they better damn well remember it... at least till the Splice is up. You do not show weakness to those types.

[Heidi]

I think that V is the kind of person whose life is filled with other things than relationships with other beings. Magic has always been the most important thing to hir. To me V has all the basic characteristics of an upcoming addict. I think this new power and shift in alignment has consumed hir. It does not mean that V doesn't still care/love hir family (otherwise V would not have asked how they are), but hir world is now just consumed by an addiction to power.

Heidi

[Kaytara]

I think that V is the kind of person whose life is filled with other things than relationships with other beings. Magic has always been the most important thing to hir. To me V has all the basic characteristics of an upcoming addict. I think this new power and shift in alignment has consumed hir. It does not mean that V doesn't still care/love hir family (otherwise V would not have asked how they are), but hir world is now just consumed by an addiction to power.

Heidi

Perhaps, but Vaarsuvius called his wedding "the finest day of [his] long life". Not the day he cast his first 1th level spell, not the day he achieved something big with his magic, but his wedding. This seems to suggest that if there's anything that can rival the importance of V's magic in his life, it's his loved ones.


As we think we understand it, the fiends are planning on using V as a tool to seize control of the gate. This use of V depends on the contract between V and fiends. That means any flaw in fiend wordage that can be deemed a major lie is enough to void the contract and ruin their entire plan.
Few if any courts will void a contract on the grounds that the salesman called the retail price "once in a lifetime". But saying "You will be in control" when V was not is potentially grounds for voiding the contract. And the more serious influence the souls have on V, the more chance the contract is void and the fiends lose their shot at the gate.
The fiends would be happy to have V as a permanent "guest", but she is still just small time for them. Given the stakes, they are unlikely to risk it.

The problem with this kind of logic is that terms of contract, voiding the contract, courts, are all elements of standard bargains with devils, Lawful Evil devils. Of the three fiends, only one is Lawful, and it seems unlikely that the whole group would just arbitrarily succumb to the Lawful way of doing things instead of making up their own rules on infernal pacts. That they've outlined the bargain verbally instead of handing V a contract could be part of that.

Being that the IFCC are new, they could easily be a "use at your own risk" type of organization. Who would Vaarsuvius complain to if things went awry? The yugoloth and the demons probably wouldn't care, and the devils are unlikely to be able to exercise any authority due to the fact that two of the three fiends are not devils.

Based on that, I don't think we can automatically assume that the IFCC are bound by regular rules of conduct the way normal devils are.

[Talic]

Well, theoretically, they could choose to begin the taking command part while V's still under the effects of the splice...

Then order the souls under their command (the ones spliced), to act in harmony, and not end the splice.

By the wording, that would give them pretty much eternal control over spliced V.

[Heidi]

Perhaps, but Vaarsuvius called his wedding "the finest day of [his] long life". Not the day he cast his first 1th level spell, not the day he achieved something big with his magic, but his wedding. This seems to suggest that if there's anything that can rival the importance of V's magic in his life, it's his loved ones.

That is most likely true. But many addicts do want different things from life than what their actions are bringing them. A person who has drunk his/her fortune and lost his/her family in the process might very well feel that the family was the best thing he/she ever had. That's why it's called an addiction. It is an uncontrollable, life-dominating urge.

And for me it seems like V is in the first stages of it. V just sees the pros of it now, because none of the cons have entered the picture yet. The power-trip will most likely have consequences - V might lose hir family, hir health (mental/physical), hir friends. It might be that at some point V realizes that hir hunger for power runs hir life, not V hirself. But I think that right now V has no idea of what zie is dealing with.

Heidi

[David Argall]

The problem with this kind of logic is that terms of contract, voiding the contract, courts, are all elements of standard bargains with devils, Lawful Evil devils.

The fiends are not able to simply take over V. If they could, they wouldn't bother with this nonsense. Note too that they do the deed and flee. There are other forces out there that could ruin their plans.
What we have here is the power of contract, not the power of the fiends. They can bother V because he, in some sense, allows it. And he has allowed it according to the terms of the contract. When that contract is void, so is her permission.

[Pyron]

I disagree. There is plenty of evidence. I challenge you to find me one instance - just one - of un-Spliced Vaarsuvius laughing in the comic.
Vaarsuvius doesn't laugh. He doesn't smile all that much, either. He's never laughed or smiled while casting spells in a battle, either. He's always stern and determined when casting spells.

Vaarsuvius bursting into laughter - and evil laughter, at that - and spending the majority of the battle smiling sadistically clearly goes against his established character - and clearly within the established character of the three most powerful EVIL spellcasters to have ever lived.

You might have argument if there was a case that V acted radically different during this battle with ABD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html).

The thing is this, during her battle with the dragon she quite determined and stern when she was casting. Also in some of her previous (un-spliced) battles V does not refrain from smiling. Consider the following examples.

:vaarsuvius:“I love the smell of bat guano in the morning..” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

:vaarsuvius:“Knowing is half the battle.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html)

:vaarsuvius:“Paper beats rock.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html)

:vaarsuvius:"Your capacity for maternal disappointment has only just begun ...” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)

As for an specific example where V actually busted in laughter. I admit that I cannot think of one. It's a red herring because you haven't proved that V acted out of character during her battle with the dragon. Unless you actually want to split hairs.


Besides, if Vaarsuvius were completely in control of himself, the "Don't let them influence your actions!" part wouldn't even have needed mentioning.

Other way around. If V had absolute no control, then it pointless to remind her and say the above line. It works like peer pressure. The soul can, in theory, influence V's action by whispering evil thoughts. But V is in control.


An alternate explanation is that Vaarsuvius has simply gone mad with power - but even then it's still madness that directly resulted from the Soul Splice. If V's mad, then he's not himself, thus Vaarsuvius is not completely in control. There's a reason insane people get to plead insanity.

Interesting. Care to some provide evidence to support this theory.


Well, let's not forget that the reason tending to someone's wounds is a high priority in real life is that the injuries get worse with each passing second.
In DnD, though, normal injuries do not seem to cause significant blood loss, all that much pain or the expected inhibitions. We do not see Parent crying out in pain upon standing on feet that were previously pierced by nails.
So it makes perfect sense for Vaarsuvius to try and make maximum use of the Soul Splice instead, while it lasts.

That normal injuries don't cause much pain in the D&D. I guess that makes sense if you see NPCs and PCs as character sheets with hit points, base attack bonuses, and bonus feats. However, threat them like actually people then why treating and comforting two children who legs are broken and are traumatized knowing that a dragon was about to eat. The reason most people would not ignore something like is because of this thing called compassion. It's that funny feeling that makes us place the needs other people (especially loved ones) over our selfish desire. Like save the need to maximize our revenge and pride at this moment.


I think the souls are in fact influencing V very much, to the point of making him far more evil, ruthless, heartless and sadistic than he actually is (alignment feedback, as the fiends called it). That, along with a not yet satisfied need for some therapeutic tormenting of the dragon, as well as pseudo-pragmatism, is what makes V act this way towards his family. He's still far too focussed on extracting payback from the dragon to think about his family beyond in purely logical terms.

It's kind of hard to follow because your making two different arguments. One paragraph ago, you said the reason she ignored his family is because V felt it was logical to maximize the soul splice. Now you're saying she's acting this because of the soul's influences. What is it?

[brilliantlight]

It seems to me the splice is what turned V into such hard core evil. I don't think she had much sympathy for her family there just hardcore vengence on her mind.

[Pyron]

That is most likely true. But many addicts do want different things from life than what their actions are bringing them. A person who has drunk his/her fortune and lost his/her family in the process might very well feel that the family was the best thing he/she ever had. That's why it's called an addiction. It is an uncontrollable, life-dominating urge.

And for me it seems like V is in the first stages of it. V just sees the pros of it now, because none of the cons have entered the picture yet. The power-trip will most likely have consequences - V might lose hir family, hir health (mental/physical), hir friends. It might be that at some point V realizes that hir hunger for power runs hir life, not V hirself. But I think that right now V has no idea of what zie is dealing with.

Heidi

Good point, and I like to point out this nugget.

On the Origin of PCs Spoiler
Remember, Aarindarius literally kicked V (via a [Force] spell) out of his tower because V was too isolated from the world studying magic. Think about that: when she was in her home village, V literally spent all her time studying magic from old tomes when she could have spent time with her family. I also note that V's Iron Mage exposition did not mention anything about a spouse or children.

I personally think Aarindarius kicked V out so she can spend more time with her family. But, instead V just dreams of ultimate arcane power.

[Dhei-Veed]

Come on...V is willing to put him/herself in the hands of three most evil dudes in the future for an undetermined period of time...and all to save his/her family. That's gotta be love...

And by the way...he/she does not seem to be the emotional type to me, and since his/her family was threatened we saw a display of emotion (screaming aaarrrghhh!!!)...That's gotta be love...

[Kaytara]

You might have argument if there was a case that V acted radically different during this battle with ABD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html).

The thing is this, during her battle with the dragon she quite determined and stern when she was casting. Also in some of her previous (un-spliced) battles V does not refrain from smiling. Consider the following examples.
....
As for an specific example where V actually busted in laughter. I admit that I cannot think of one. It's a red herring because you haven't proved that V acted out of character during her battle with the dragon. Unless you actually want to split hairs.
I was not trying to prove that Vaarsuvius was acting completely out of character because my argument was that he was being influenced, not possessed. If we're trying to argue that he's possessed, then we need to prove that he's acting and speaking completely out of character. However, we're not, and to prove that he's being influenced by the souls now and there we only need proof of several instances, rather than the whole time.


:vaarsuvius:“I love the smell of bat guano in the morning..” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)
:vaarsuvius:“Knowing is half the battle.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html)
:vaarsuvius:“Paper beats rock.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html)
You misunderstood my point, or did not look closely enough. The wording I used was "he's never laughed or smiled while casting spells in battle". While. Not beforehand, not afterwards, but at the peak of the moment, while saying the magical words - the way V does while casting Time Stop and Familicide. To me, it definitely looks like V is enjoying himself there in a way he never did before.


:vaarsuvius:"Your capacity for maternal disappointment has only just begun ...” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)
I don't even SEE a smile there. :smallconfused:


Other way around. If V had absolute no control, then it pointless to remind her and say the above line. It works like peer pressure. The soul can, in theory, influence V's action by whispering evil thoughts. But V is in control.
To me, driving a car with three people distracting you and tugging at your sleeves to try and get you to veer right or left is not the same as driving that car completely by yourself, focussing all your attention on the road ahead. Therefore, I would argue that Vaarsuvius is technically in control, but for all intents and purposes it's still not complete control.


Interesting. Care to some provide evidence to support this theory.
That V's gone mad with power? Well, for one thing his somewhat out-of-character behaviour as well as the psychopathic enjoyment of beating up the dragon would be consistent with it. But more to the point, one of the fiends say that "the Soul Splice has been known to trigger feelings of pure omnipotence" and that V may "also experience some slight dizziness from the rush of unprecedented arcane power". Could be fiend-lawyer-speak for "the power will make you addled in the head".


That normal injuries don't cause much pain in the D&D. I guess that makes sense if you see NPCs and PCs as character sheets with hit points, base attack bonuses, and bonus feats. However, threat them like actually people then why treating and comforting two children who legs are broken and are traumatized knowing that a dragon was about to eat. The reason most people would not ignore something like is because of this thing called compassion. It's that funny feeling that makes us place the needs other people (especially loved ones) over our selfish desire. Like save the need to maximize our revenge and pride at this moment.
Vaarsuvius rationalizes his decision (and probably believes it himself, to an extent) as being pragmatic, and pragmatism is well-known for often being at odds with things like compassion. Anyway, what V does to the dragon doesn't seem to take much over half a minute or so. Suppose your plane crash-landed in an area swarming with dangerous predators. Once you've ascertained that your family is not dying, it doesn't even take all that much pragmatism to take a few minutes to take measures against those dangerous predators before running to your family with comforting hugs. Whether you are also secretly trying to re-establish your own lost sense of self-esteem as a parent and guardian while doing so does not change much in the equation.


It's kind of hard to follow because your making two different arguments. One paragraph ago, you said the reason she ignored his family is because V felt it was logical to maximize the soul splice. Now you're saying she's acting this because of the soul's influences. What is it?
Sorry for the confusion, but I was simply addressing the separate points of your argument - such as, for example, why briefly neglecting the family in order to address another threat to them (however indirect that threat is, and whatever your reasons are) is not all that abominable. Then I summed up by own actual view of the situation.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

What people seem to be willfully ignoring is that V has always been a Pragmatic character. We're talking all work and no play business. The task at hand is priority, and he's on a timer. Every 6 seconds he wastes is 18 spent in the service of baleful forces. It'd be nice to be able to devote time to loved ones, but in this case, doing so is to everyone's detriment. Had V gone evil? Yes, quite pragmatically so. I fail to see how any of this is out of character though. Think back to the conclusion of the ship story arc. No evil spirits told him to dust the politician. Killing black dragons isn't an evil act, according the alignment system, since they are evil unto themselves. However, there does seem to be a good bit of pleasure derived from the act. That leads me to suspect that the vice of Wrath also plays it's part, and I can relate. I'd do the very same thing if I was in V's shoes.

[Pyron]

I was not trying to prove that Vaarsuvius was acting completely out of character because my argument was that he was being influenced, not possessed. If we're trying to argue that he's possessed, then we need to prove that he's acting and speaking completely out of character. However, we're not, and to prove that he's being influenced by the souls now and there we only need proof of several instances, rather than the whole time.



Vaarsuvius bursting into laughter - and evil laughter, at that - and spending the majority of the battle smiling sadistically clearly goes against his established character - and clearly within the established character of the three most powerful EVIL spellcasters to have ever lived.


No. You've made the argument that V was acting out of character during her battle with the dragon. Actually, you just made the statement without providing much evidence. I merely pointed out that V's action during her battle with the ABD is not radically different from her previous battles.


You misunderstood my point, or did not look closely enough. The wording I used was "he's never laughed or smiled while casting spells in battle". While. Not beforehand, not afterwards, but at the peak of the moment, while saying the magical words - the way V does while casting Time Stop and Familicide. To me, it definitely looks like V is enjoying himself there in a way he never did before.

I don't even SEE a smile there. :smallconfused:

See. This is what I mean. You're splitting hairs, and your whole argument relies on that. Your argument seems to hinge on your interpretation that was V was smiling like a bastard during the dragon fight (and thus acted OOC). That's just how you looked the events. And you, asking to find evidence that V smiled or laughed at the exact moment of your choosing is a red herring because it was designed to deflect from the main argument.

The point is this. V's actions and demeanor when battling the dragon is not that radically different from her previous battles. She was just as focused on the offensive as she was during her others battles. And, during every battle, V had a little hubris and pride in her arcane powers that she was never without wit or a smile.

Well, maybe not so much in the last example. That must mean she was possessed by fiends back them.


To me, driving a car with three people distracting you and tugging at your sleeves to try and get you to veer right or left is not the same as driving that car completely by yourself, focussing all your attention on the road ahead. Therefore, I would argue that Vaarsuvius is technically in control, but for all intents and purposes it's still not complete control.

Wrong. V is even complete control. First, this is a faulty analogy because the soul are mealy voices in her head. They cannot tug or pull. Any influence they is represent by them whispering in V's ear. It's nothing more than peer pressure. Assuming, this analogy does fit then V is still in control because she can shut off the car.


That V's gone mad with power? Well, for one thing his somewhat out-of-character behaviour as well as the psychopathic enjoyment of beating up the dragon would be consistent with it. But more to the point, one of the fiends say that "the Soul Splice has been known to trigger feelings of pure omnipotence" and that V may "also experience some slight dizziness from the rush of unprecedented arcane power". Could be fiend-lawyer-speak for "the power will make you addled in the head".

Well, I won't argue that the rush of arcane power skewed V's perspective. But the thing is this: V made the decision and accept this change.


Vaarsuvius rationalizes his decision (and probably believes it himself, to an extent) as being pragmatic, and pragmatism is well-known for often being at odds with things like compassion. Anyway, what V does to the dragon doesn't seem to take much over half a minute or so. Suppose your plane crash-landed in an area swarming with dangerous predators. Once you've ascertained that your family is not dying, it doesn't even take all that much pragmatism to take a few minutes to take measures against those dangerous predators before running to your family with comforting hugs. Whether you are also secretly trying to re-establish your own lost sense of self-esteem as a parent and guardian while doing so does not change much in the equation.

Another faulty analogy. The dragon was already dead when V checked on her family. There was no immediate danger to her family. There was also no practical need to cast famicide, at all. It's not pragmatic at all. V's priorities are not in sync with any compassionate or practical person. She placed her own needs above her family's well being.


Sorry for the confusion, but I was simply addressing the separate points of your argument - such as, for example, why briefly neglecting the family in order to address another threat to them (however indirect that threat is, and whatever your reasons are) is not all that abominable. Then I summed up by own actual view of the situation.

That's why your arguments are falling apart. Instead of focusing on the point that support your argument, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to argue that V's being influenced by the evil souls, and at the same time you can't accept the fact that ignoring your families crippling injuries (and not even looking at them) in favor of enacting vengeance against an entire bloodline is completely selfish and not pragmatic and logical.

Instead of trying to have it both ways, wouldn't it make sense to support your argument by accepting that.


What people seem to be willfully ignoring is that V has always been a Pragmatic character. We're talking all work and no play business. The task at hand is priority, and he's on a timer. Every 6 seconds he wastes is 18 spent in the service of baleful forces. It'd be nice to be able to devote time to loved ones, but in this case, doing so is to everyone's detriment.

Talking is a free action. I see no reason why V couldn't at least let her spouse finish talking before flying off.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That goes back to his pragmatic streak in conjunction with a preoccupation with magic. He's a goal oriented sort and obsessive. Given his time table, there are certain things that need be done, and in a certain order. 1 Remove the immediate threat. (Note that he went so far as to inquire as the whether or not there was potentially fatal harm done while taking this step.) 2. Prevent further potentially lethal threats (I'll admit that enjoying the task is typically viewed as evil). 3. Address the non-fatal issues in order of preference. It's all very TN, and still within the set code of conduct.

[accountingninja]

Coupla things:
I don't think V has gone mad with power...yet. We really haven't seen enough evidence to come to the conclusion that V's will is not his own. Influenced, certainly. Though the maniacal laughter was OOC, V was at least sane enough to recognize that. For now. DUN DUN DUNNNN.

Re V's never mentioning his family=he doesn't care. No way. V is just intensely private. The comic has never shown V sending for them or talking about them, but it also has never established that he doesn't. On the contrary, it seems that people who are very close to V (Haley) know a lot about his private life, because V deems them worthy to let in. V's private life is only hinted at very subtly, and also quite tenderly (his quote about the "happiest day" of his life-I remember being pretty pleasantly surprised at that tidbit). I do hope this arc lets us get more familiar with V's relationships: how he fell in love, how he came to adopt children. I'd love that depth. :smallsmile:

Re V's behavior now: We know little to nothing about how V and his spouse communicate. Being dismissive and not demonstrative with his affection are 2 of V's defining traits. His spouse married V, it is assumed s/he loves him as he is, and V has always been a rather prickly character. Was V cutting off his spouse mid-sentence "nice"? Well, no. But it doesn't seem out of character for V.
There's another theory, too. V's spouse had started to get rather emotional, asking what had happened to V. V has been shown not to respond well to others being concerned for him, like his abusive treatment of Durkon's and Elan's worry for him back on the ship. Maybe he is too proud to accept pity. Maybe the emotions of it make him uneasy. Maybe he feels shame at what he's become. I think he cut off his spouse because he didn't want to "get into it right now".

[Kaytara]

No. You've made the argument that V was acting out of character during her battle with the dragon. Actually, you just made the statement without providing much evidence. I merely pointed out that V's action during her battle with the ABD is not radically different from her previous battles.
See. This is what I mean. You're splitting hairs, and your whole argument relies on that. Your argument seems to hinge on your interpretation that was V was smiling like a bastard during the dragon fight (and thus acted OOC). That's just how you looked the events. And you, asking to find evidence that V smiled or laughed at the exact moment of your choosing is a red herring because it was designed to deflect from the main argument.
The point is this. V's actions and demeanor when battling the dragon is not that radically different from her previous battles. She was just as focused on the offensive as she was during her others battles. And, during every battle, V had a little hubris and pride in her arcane powers that she was never without wit or a smile.

No, I think V's behaviour IS different from previous battles, because here Vaarsuvius seems to be actively enjoying it, loving it, whereas earlier he does not show signs of enjoying his enemies' suffering. You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
My insistence is a red herring? What? I asked you to find instances of V laughing WHILE casting spells because that is specifically the difference between V's behaviour now and V's behaviour otherwise - as you noted yourself, Vaarsuvius is often shown to be smug about himself. So that part has stayed consistent. The part that hasn't is Vaarsuvius enjoying blasting his opponent to hell, that's just cropped up out of nowhere.


Well, maybe not so much in the last example. That must mean she was possessed by fiends back them.
If you're serious, then that would imply that it is impossible for Vaarsuvius not to smile during combat. Which is ridiculous, of course. If you're being sarcastic as some kind of jab at my argument, it still doesn't make any sense. So I'll just leave this be.


Wrong. V is even complete control. First, this is a faulty analogy because the soul are mealy voices in her head. They cannot tug or pull. Any influence they is represent by them whispering in V's ear. It's nothing more than peer pressure. Assuming, this analogy does fit then V is still in control because she can shut off the car.
How exactly do you know it's peer pressure? We're talking about the mystical effects of a powerful magical spell in a fictional universe. What makes you certain that the influence of the souls works in the same way peer pressure does and not, say, by very faintly nudging V's subconsciousness? Either one is possible with V still remaining the one in control, with the final word on everything. I'll give you that this discredits my previous description of how the Soul Splice might work, as well. Since we're trying to argue based on insufficient specific information provided about this spell, I propose we agree to disagree.


Well, I won't argue that the rush of arcane power skewed V's perspective. But the thing is this: V made the decision and accept this change.
Oh, no doubt about that. But that doesn't really fit the discussion of V's decision-making during the Soul Splice, does it? Perhaps we should start treating the Soul Splice as the evil magical mojo equivalent of a drug trip. XD


Another faulty analogy. The dragon was already dead when V checked on her family. There was no immediate danger to her family. There was also no practical need to cast famicide, at all. It's not pragmatic at all. V's priorities are not in sync with any compassionate or practical person. She placed her own needs above her family's well being.
No immediate danger to V's family - that is your analysis. I am trying to argue that the decision was valid from V's perspective - from the perspective of an emotionally broken traumatized megalomaniac wizard who's tripping on evil mojo.


That's why your arguments are falling apart. Instead of focusing on the point that support your argument, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to argue that V's being influenced by the evil souls, and at the same time you can't accept the fact that ignoring your families crippling injuries (and not even looking at them) in favor of enacting vengeance against an entire bloodline is completely selfish and not pragmatic and logical.
Instead of trying to have it both ways, wouldn't it make sense to support your argument by accepting that.

:smallannoyed:
Firstly, there are no LAWS stating that one's argument simply has to follow some specific template. There IS, however, the understanding that acting in a condescending manner with your interlocutor, especially if they've been very civil with you, is bad taste at best and childish at worst.

Secondly, I'll clarify this. My arguments are "falling apart" because I am not trying to prove any ONE TRUE argument. I accept the idea that there are multiple completely different ways to read the events in the comic, all of them entirely valid due to the complex and subtle nature of Rich's storytelling, especially where it concerns Vaarsuvius. If different parts of my post contradict one another, it's because I'm trying to prove how the corresponding arguments are viable. There's nothing forcing me to limit myself to only arguing the positions I hold, personally.


Talking is a free action. I see no reason why V couldn't at least let her spouse finish talking before flying off.
The "free action" rule has been subverted before, back when V killed the first black dragon. For all intents and purposes, it certainly doesn't seem like time stands still while characters in the comic stand around and chat.

[The Extinguisher]

Every 6 seconds he wastes is 18 spent in the service of baleful forces.

That's a very good point, that a lot of people seem to be missing. V needs to end the splice quickly, and conversing with people, even for a moment will cost his soul more time in hell (metaphorically and literally)

[Dagren]

I don't know how relevant anyone will consider this, but I noticed this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) while flipping through the archives today. As I say, I don't know if it's relevant to V now, but I feel it demonstrates that V certainly felt strongly about family before her breakdown, even if this has been eclipsed by her obsession since.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

As it was spoken... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) -thus it was so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

:vaarsuvius:: "I... I must succeed."

[Umael]

Try this one on for size:

In a court of law, the question of intent and the conviction is based on reasonable doubt.

Do any of you feel that V's family is safe around V? Do any of you feel that V is not a danger to hirself or those around hir?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Loaded much?

1. Yes. (Though by saying that, I fully expect him to lead to their collective ends. :smalltongue:)
2. To himself when he gets worked up, as do many... -and the only ones around him that are in danger are those that stand between him, the party, and their goals.

[Half-Psychic]

Clock's ticking, ya know. We'll call Greater Teleport Round 1. Disjunction/Quick Disintegrate is 2. Timestop is 3. Shapechange 4. Telekinesis 5. Create Greater Undead 6. Familicide 7. That's assuming the Timestop doesn't actually count as more rounds, since V got a solid 4 rounds of double-cast out of it (so what if time was frozen for everyone else, he's still functional, and he's still burning splice-juice, so the clock should still be running, imo).

I agree with the poster who mentioned that in critical situations, people may clamp down and try to blow through it as fast as possible, being able to (presumably) go back later and sort out hurt feelings.
Yes Parent, Other Parent is back. And if Other Parent and you have a tearful reunion RIGHT NOW, you're going to move the hands on the clock closer to midnight. V was tired before, but he isn't now. If he is not already, he could instantly become aware of any potential loopholes in the Fiend's deal (not that it matters at this point)which I expect to be a prime reason for him to break the splice soon. In addition; Once he drops the splice, where's that leave him? With his family. They have not seen him in ages. Who just witnessed a masterful display of arcane power (even if they don't understand what 'Familicide' is)? The kids are injured. Daddy is there to protect them. And what's more, he's mastered magic, which means he's home for good now. . .right? Big things are happening in the world though. Perhaps he'll stay for a reunion, and to help rebuild, but it won't last

[Spiky]

Bizarre.

The only thing in the entire comic that even suggests V is in complete control of himself and the 3 is the "Shhhh" by Mate in 639. That is the ONLY thing, and it could easily mean something else. Everything else points to V being completely frickin' different.


Crazy eyes
Speech color
Teeth
Familicide
Haera appearing as Familicide is spoken
Complete rudeness to those he is purportedly saving (for the record, that means he is treating them like he treats Belkar), not to mention not healing them before finishing up with the dragon
Accepting the splice in the first place
The taunting: "mewled helplessly...."
And did everyone forget this already: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html Everyone thought that was over the top, but now Super-V is not? Please get some reality, or long-term memory or something.

[Pyron]

No, I think V's behaviour IS different from previous battles, because here Vaarsuvius seems to be actively enjoying it, loving it, whereas earlier he does not show signs of enjoying his enemies' suffering. You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

There's a reason I'm making it 'complicated'. The thing is this: You think V's behavior during the dragon's battle is completely OOC. You presented that statement as a fact with little to no explanation. I don't really see V acting out of character, giving the situation, and I provided evidence to support my case.

You just brushed them off because it did please your specific criteria. That's why whether or not V smiled during any other battle is a red herring. Whether or not she was OOC during the dragon fight does not hinge on her frown's time table.

But, I made my argument. If it doesn't please your specific criteria, then that's your decision..


My insistence is a red herring? What? I asked you to find instances of V laughing WHILE casting spells because that is specifically the difference between V's behaviour now and V's behaviour otherwise - as you noted yourself, Vaarsuvius is often shown to be smug about himself. So that part has stayed consistent. The part that hasn't is Vaarsuvius enjoying blasting his opponent to hell, that's just cropped up out of nowhere.

I disagree. Consider V's battle with the chimera. Before she opened fire her spells; she smiled and stated that she loved the “smell the of bat guano. It smells like victory”. To me, that sounds like someone who would enjoy the blasting.


How exactly do you know it's peer pressure? We're talking about the mystical effects of a powerful magical spell in a fictional universe. What makes you certain that the influence of the souls works in the same way peer pressure does and not, say, by very faintly nudging V's subconsciousness? Either one is possible with V still remaining the one in control, with the final word on everything. I'll give you that this discredits my previous description of how the Soul Splice might work, as well. Since we're trying to argue based on insufficient specific information provided about this spell, I propose we agree to disagree.

Fine.


Oh, no doubt about that. But that doesn't really fit the discussion of V's decision-making during the Soul Splice, does it? Perhaps we should start treating the Soul Splice as the evil magical mojo equivalent of a drug trip. XD

It does fit in the sense of accepting responsibility for one's action. V made the choice to sell her soul for this power, whether or not she's on an evil acid trip afterwards is irreverent, she's accountable for her actions.


No immediate danger to V's family - that is your analysis. I am trying to argue that the decision was valid from V's perspective - from the perspective of an emotionally broken traumatized megalomaniac wizard who's tripping on evil mojo.

Yes. This is my analysis. I looked at the facts and arrived at my conclusion based on that analysis. The general definition of an 'immediate danger' is a something bad happening right now. The immediate danger in this case was the dragon. She's dead. No more immediate danger.

You argument that V's perspective is “emotionally broken traumatized megalomaniac ...” proves my point. She considered the need to kill every last black dragon in the family line to be more important than taking six seconds to check on her family. V's priorities are distorted. No amount of flimsy justification will change that.

This argument ran it's course. I realize I won't be able to convince you or anyone else who thinks V's logic is valid.


Firstly, there are no LAWS stating that one's argument simply has to follow some specific template. There IS, however, the understanding that acting in a condescending manner with your interlocutor, especially if they've been very civil with you, is bad taste at best and childish at worst.

Secondly, I'll clarify this. My arguments are "falling apart" because I am not trying to prove any ONE TRUE argument. I accept the idea that there are multiple completely different ways to read the events in the comic, all of them entirely valid due to the complex and subtle nature of Rich's storytelling, especially where it concerns Vaarsuvius. If different parts of my post contradict one another, it's because I'm trying to prove how the corresponding arguments are viable. There's nothing forcing me to limit myself to only arguing the positions I hold, personally.

Nobody said it was a law.

Here are my two cents: I just called a spade a spade. Your free to make what ever arguments you wish. However, it's only fair to make some effort for consistency when presenting your argument. Otherwise, it's giving others the impression that you're not interested in any civil conversation and it can be seen as dishonesty.

Our argument ran full circles. I hope you don't take this personally, but I see little to gain in this conversation. We both have our different opinions, and we're only going to be repeating them.

[Pyron]

I don't know how relevant anyone will consider this, but I noticed this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) while flipping through the archives today. As I say, I don't know if it's relevant to V now, but I feel it demonstrates that V certainly felt strongly about family before her breakdown, even if this has been eclipsed by her obsession since.

Ohhh! Nice work.

[Pyron]

There's one thing people seem to have forgotten. When Vaarsuvius first heard about this soul splice, she assumed the price would be eternal damnation over her soul. She was willing to burn in hell in exchange for the her family's safety and well-being. She placed their needs above her own; like any good parent.

It really shows how V has changed if people honestly believe that she's now being so frugal with her soul splice energy that she can't be bothered to waste the 1-2 rounds to help her family first. The fact Vaarsuvius choose to cast Famlicide (there's no evidence that the dragon's family was coming after V's family) as opposed to Greater Teleport only illustrates her current priorities.

[Rotipher]

If V is that concerned about how long it would take to help vir family, why doesn't ve use Time Stop again? Even if only one of the Spliced souls knew that spell, ve presumably has the sorcerer-spirit's ability to cast it as many times as vir available slots allow. That would give vir plenty of time to Summon celestials with healing abilities, administer Cure Wounds potions, etc. At the very least, ve could've quickly rendered the children unconscious so they wouldn't be in agony.

[Korwin]

It will be interesting to see, if V. will hang on the Soul-Split as long as he can or end it as soon as possible.
(My bet is on hang on as long as he can).

[brilliantlight]

V was deliberately cruel to the dragon. This is not in her normal state. There was no reason for her to gloat about how she is going to wipe out the rest of the dragon's family before killing them all except to make the dragon miserable before she died. She could have simply cast familicide and been done. I also consider that spell evil in and of itself. If they had epic spells in the BOVD it would deserve being put there.

[hamishspence]

Well, Champions of Ruin, despite being a Faerun setting book, is pretty close to being "BoVD 2" more discussion of what it means to be evil, more Vile feats, exceptionally evil races, and prestige classes, and, epic Evil spells.

so, yes, I'd place it alongside such spells.

[David Argall]

V was deliberately cruel to the dragon. There was no reason for her to gloat about how she is going to wipe out the rest of the dragon's family
But she didn't gloat. What she did was explain to us what was happening. It just does not qualify as gloating. There is just the facts, no digging it in, no glee. V describes it as a task, not as some fun.



I also consider that spell evil in and of itself. If they had epic spells in the BOVD it would deserve being put there.
Why? It just kills a lot of targets. That some might be innocent is no different from any other mass lethal effect.

[hamishspence]

"Kill everyone within an area" is a little different from "Kill every member of a family"

[Volkov]

The whole "A yes or no will suffice" is just another way of quicly saying: "Are you all right? Tell me quickly!"

Keep in mind that V has a dragon to deal with, so he's checking to see if they needed to be treated immediatly before he finishes the dragon off.

Yes he seems very cold (and the whole familycide thing was too overboard) but I think that's basically it. Once 'Suvie knew his family wasn't going to die within the next couple of seconds, he could be free to finish it.

There are many things to explain why he's not looking at them.

The Dragon is already dead, *he could have left it at that. A truly good person would have left it at that.

[evileeyore]

"Kill everyone within an area" is a little different from "Kill every member of a family"

There is no fundemental difference between 1 and 62 once one begins killing.

A Fireball can kill many more than 62 and yet it is not an Evil spell.



The Dragon is already dead, *he could have left it at that. A truly good person would have left it at that.

Vaarsuvius has never been a "truly good person".


Even when Vaarsuvius was supposedly Lawful Good (which I do believe Vaarsuvius was meant at the begining to be), Vaarsuvius was treading a fall to Lawful Neutral.

Also your bias is showing. I believe a tuly good person could kill an enitre family and still remain a truly good person.



Side question: Is Elan a truly Good person? Even after the deaths he caused when the Dungeons of Durokon blew up?

[Mordaedil]

I would like to take a moment of your time to remind everyone that Vaarsuvius still cannot access divine spells via wish, which is clearly intended to bite her behind in the coming script as she cannot restore life to her family.

Also, yes, I'm using the female pronoun as gender-neutral, because saying "hir" all the time makes the post look like it is full of miss-spellings and really retarded to read.

[Korwin]

I would like to take a moment of your time to remind everyone that Vaarsuvius still cannot access divine spells via wish, which is clearly intended to bite her behind in the coming script as she cannot restore life to her family.


Is that an Houserule in OOTS?
RAW and RAI you can use Wish to get Cleric spells.

[MuLepton]

It's part of the deal.

First, you won't be able to duplicate any divine magic, not even with a Wish or Limited Wish.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html

[Snake-Aes]

Is that an Houserule in OOTS?
RAW and RAI you can use Wish to get Cleric spells.

It was specified in his contract.

[David Argall]

The Dragon is already dead, *he could have left it at that. A truly good person would have left it at that.

That depends on the evil of the dragons and their willingness to hunt down V and family. We are skeptical of V's idea that the dragons will attack, but none will respond to her new spell, but if we deem the idea accurate, and the dragons evil, the spell becomes a Good idea and delaying the casting dangerous.