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Samb
2009-03-20, 11:52 AM
Here's some houserules that my DM uses to try to even out the useful each class in the party is. Please feel free to post what you have relating to class fix here so we can all bounce ideas off eachother. My DM only boosts classes and never nerfs them and only core (including the XPH) books. Not enough exp with other books to make the correct adjustments. The goal is to level the playing a bit for any job in the lower tiers.

Rogue: at level 1: gets free dodge, Level 2: get mobility, level 3: spring attack and at every even level they get a choice of feats that increases skill rolls (stealthy, deceitful, etc).

The dodge->spring attack is mainly to qualify for PrC and the fact that while spring attack is a good feat, dodge and mobility are not. The +skill feats give the premiere skill monkey more freedom to dip into other classes (ranger 2, fighter 2, psiwarrior 2, barbarian 1) that have less skill without as much worry in losing skills.

Paladins: are automatically considered exalted at level 4 (provided they never needed atonement) and can take an exalted feat at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. Pallies also take a substitution at level 12 to gain the saint template. The substitution level (only gains BAB and saving throws) for the pally basically counts as a LA of 1 instead of 2. Saints on your side is literally a godsend, the only downside is that your DM will have to make pallies of lvl 12+ very rare. The best tank around.
Note: while you can acquire this template earlier you would need to sacrifice 2 levels. Here you only take one sub level sacrificing only spells and smite abilities for an awesome template.

Psywarrior: full BAB, can take a mantle in place of 2nd level bonus feat. These guys are always decent even in near epic levels and just needed a little nudge. Honestly, most of the times I don't even notice the BAB.

Fighter: extra attacks only impose a -3 penalty instead of -5. This means they gain a 2nd attack at level 4, 3rd attack at lvl 7 and so on. Fighter "mains" can have up to 5 attacks per round. If multiclassing this benefit only applies if fighter classes are more than half of the total HD, otherwise use the normal rules. You should see alot of fighter11/ PrC 9 from now on. Fighter is still unpopular at our game even with this huge boost. Don't know why.

Monks: basically become psionic fists but with ALL the monk features. They gain powers point at the same rate but powers levels are increased at intervals of 4. So level 1-4 get lvl 1 powers, 5-8 gain lvl 2 powers, to a max of lvl 5 powers at 17-20. Psionic fist and monks were never that good but when you combine them it is pretty good. Hell monks should all be psionic just for the flavor.

Ranger: No one at our games plays ranger, but most non-fighters dip 2 levels into it to get free TWF. Maybe make both combat styles available to players and faster spell progression? Maybe it doesn't need anything at all.

Barbarian: gain bonus rage feats at 1, 3 and at 9. I know they are tier 4 but every barbarian I have played with have played it like it is at worst a tier 3. The bonus rage feats are mainly to qualify for frenzied berzerker or just to kick more ass.


Psion: not that need a boost but they get psicrystal for free at level one. And yes they do gain feats.


Assassins: Non-evil assassins can exist but they can only do death attack to paralyze their mark. An opponent paralyzed this way cannot be coup de graced and all damage done to it is non-lethal. They are really ex-assassins. Most of the time the rogue just wants to dip into this class for a fast +1d6 in SA or hide in plain sight.


Elocator: full ML progression, scorn earth allows you to move silently at full speed or adds +5 to your move silently at half speed. They also gain teleport and plane shift 1/day as a psi-like ability at lvl 4. I personally love this PrC for my rogue/psiwarrior, although i think it would have been better a just psiwarrior/elocator since scorn earth lets you charge anywhere.

mystic theuge/ cerebromancer: These guys can convert spells to power points and vice versa. This was what the dragon-gods in Dark sun did and I don't see why it was taken out. Divine levels and arcane spell levels are interchangeable. divine/arcane levels and points convert is the same way: level 2 spell will convert to 3 power point, or 17 points (a level 9 power) will convert to an extra lvl 9 slot. Not that these guy ever get level 9 spells till epic level that is........

Melamoto
2009-03-20, 05:33 PM
These seem like some pretty good house rules giving nice bonuses to classes that really need them.

Gorbash
2009-03-20, 05:43 PM
How on earth does a Psychic Warrior need a fix? Full BAB just makes them insane, they're already great as they are now.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-20, 06:19 PM
Fighter: extra attacks only impose a -3 penalty instead of -5. This means they gain a 2nd attack at level 4, 3rd attack at lvl 7 and so on. Fighter "mains" can have up to 5 attacks per round. If multiclassing this benefit only applies if fighter classes are more than half of the total HD, otherwise use the normal rules. You should see alot of fighter11/ PrC 9 from now on. Fighter is still unpopular at our game even with this huge boost. Don't know why.


1) Fighters only get so many feats... no true class features, but this does make them more appealing to smashers.
2) Fighters just becomes better at fighting...which at least fits his name.

Fighters major flaw wasn't whether he could fight, but that he is blind/deaf compared to a Commoner (who has spot/listen). Fighters were unskiled trained warriors...almost a contradiction.



Monks: basically become psionic fists but with ALL the monk features. They gain powers point at the same rate but powers levels are increased at intervals of 4. So level 1-4 get lvl 1 powers, 5-8 gain lvl 2 powers, to a max of lvl 5 powers at 17-20. Psionic fist and monks were never that good but when you combine them it is pretty good. Hell monks should all be psionic just for the flavor.

Sounds nice.


Ranger: No one at our games plays ranger, but most non-fighters dip 2 levels into it to get free TWF. Maybe make both combat styles available to players and faster spell progression? Maybe it doesn't need anything at all.

Nah, improve Favored Enemy:
How about add 1/2 the highest favored enemy bonus against all types.
So a Level 1 Ranger with Favored enemy: Orc. Deals +2 damage versus Orcs, but also +1 damage versus non-orcs.
He can universally apply some of his killing methods to other races.
Later at level 5, he deals +4 damage against Orcs, and +2 damage versus everything else. The second favored enemy's bonus is mostly for skills.
Level 10: he now has +6 Orc, with +3 danmage versus everything else, etc.

So he starts being at least adequate with damaging things (and the improved damage works well with his multi-attacks from TWFing or bows).

Also maybe, full Druid Animal Companion instead of the weak 1/2 Ranger.


Barbarian: gain bonus rage feats at 1, 3 and at 9. I know they are tier 4 but every barbarian I have played with have played it like it is at worst a tier 3. The bonus rage feats are mainly to qualify for frenzied berzerker or just to kick more ass.

Another idea, let a Barb rage as many times as he wants in an encounter (assuming it somehow runs out or hit with Calm Emotions), but not while fatigued.



Assassins: Non-evil assassins can exist but they can only do death attack to paralyze their mark. An opponent paralyzed this way cannot be coup de graced and all damage done to it is non-lethal. They are really ex-assassins. Most of the time the rogue just wants to dip into this class for a fast +1d6 in SA or hide in plain sight.

Wait, paralyzing but still not helpless? How does that make sense?

Roog
2009-03-20, 06:58 PM
Assassins: Non-evil assassins can exist but they can only do death attack to paralyze their mark. An opponent paralyzed this way cannot be coup de graced and all damage done to it is non-lethal.

Why? Is killing evil?

Samb
2009-03-20, 08:45 PM
Why? Is killing evil?

Just felt that an ex-assassin should put his old ways behind him so to speak. Yes it's flavor, but death attack isn't that effective to start with, requires 3 rounds of lurking (okay, you can buff up while waiting but still). Assassin just has so much to offer to a rogue that we needed some way to get by the whole evil thing.

I would like to see some fixes for samuri and swashbukler. Two classes with slot of flavor but little substance.

monty
2009-03-20, 09:00 PM
Just felt that an ex-assassin should put his old ways behind him so to speak. Yes it's flavor, but death attack isn't that effective to start with, requires 3 rounds of lurking (okay, you can buff up while waiting but still). Assassin just has so much to offer to a rogue that we needed some way to get by the whole evil thing.

But they still have plenty of other ways to kill people. Is it ok to do so as long as they don't use the death attack?

Granted, I don't see why Assassin has to be evil in the first place, so that may have something to do with it.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-20, 09:03 PM
I'm not likeing you're Rouge fix. The fact that you're giving it some extra feats is nice, but the manner in which they're locked in isn't, especially since all of the only feat that might be worth it(spring attack) is very build specific. I mean, archer's can't use it, and neither can twf. And of the remaining, single weapon Rogues, not all of them are going to want to use it. Now as PrC prerequisites, you might have a point, except not every PrC needs those feats, so why make every Rouge have them? Additionally, while getting some skill boosting feats is somewhat nice, they don't really give it a power boost, so not sure about the point there.

As for the ranger, try looking at this thread.

Samb
2009-03-20, 10:21 PM
Death attack was the most expendable of all of the assasin abilities and most "evil". It's really just flavor and more easily justified than taking away spells or SA.

The feats for rogue are mostly flavor also. Rogues were meant to be mobile and evasive hence dodge-->spring attack. This will fill a slot of the requirements for shadowdancer. The bonus skill feats is to lessen the less of skill ranks due to multiclassing. This also allows for the possibility to get dual strike and rapid/bounding assualt during a spring attack. You will still need to dip into ranger for the free TWF and some more into a classes with full BAB progression but you could very well be making 6 attacks on a spring attack (just learned they stacked). Bounding attack and rapid blitz have had their requirements lowered to 10 and 16 for our table.


With the free spring attack the whole build needs 9 feats to complete. With 2 level dips in ranger, fighter and psiwarrior will give 5 extra feats but lose lots of skill and 3d6 on SA. Skill feats will buffer the skill lose while dogde series will free up feat slots to make a true hit and run rogue.

Let's just be clear, rogues were meant to be skill monkeys. That is what they are paid to do. If you think skill monkey is derogatory then rogue was not meant for you. If you find that only basheds are getting all the fun in your party then you need to either be more active/creative or ask your DM for more chances to shine. The adjust on rogue was to give the potential to be something, and still excel at being the craftiest fellow in the group.

Starscream
2009-03-20, 10:31 PM
I would like to see some fixes for samuri and swashbukler. Two classes with slot of flavor but little substance.

I think if you combined Swashbuckler with some of the best parts from Duelist (which also works well from a flavor perspective) you'd end up with something pretty good.

Only problem is that Duelist only goes ten levels. If you spread apart its features over 20 levels it wouldn't be enough of a fix (+2d6 by level 20? Worthless).

Maybe continue to advance Precise Strike and Improved Reaction and swipe some features from another thematically appropriate class to fill in the gaps. Dread Pirate or Thief-Acrobat would work.

As for Samurai, I personally think that class is beyond salvation without a full gestalt. It doesn't even succeed at its basic design intention. I'd just pull a Miko and declare myself a samurai no matter what my actual classes are called.

Samb
2009-03-20, 10:55 PM
Frankly I'm surprised our DM didn't get bashed for the changes on pally because saint is pretty darn powerful but the flavor fits so well with pallies. Honestly, I felt they needed a big boost. You become exalted at level one as any character but there is no real point other than to qualify for a PrC or gain this awesome template. No fixes for "evil" pallies since PCs can't be evil under this DM. Requirements for sainthood as per BoED are:


3 exalted feats (included with our DM's fixes at 4, 8 and 12)
never fallen/ good behavior
extreme sacrifice for the good of another.
at least level 6 CL

Our DM feels that after 12 levels of something as underpowered as pally is sacrifice enough. That or devoting your entire existence to the greater good.....
So while you could sainthood at lvl 6, you would lose 2 levels thanks to the LA on it, while this way you only lose some smiting per day and spell casting.

Here's what sainthood does for you:

Holy power: +2 DC on all special attacks by the saint

Holy touch: all weapons used by the saint deals 1d6 or 1d8 extra damage to evil and undead/outsiders

spell like abilities: at-will—guidance, resistance, virtue, and bless.

DR= 10/evil at level 12

Fast healing= 1/2 of HD/round

Immunity to turning to stone, cold, acid and electricity

resistance to fire and poison

protective aura: double strength protection from evil, and lesser globe of invunerability

bonus to stats: +2 WIS, +2 CON, +4 CHR

low light vision.


DR, protective aura, immunities, +CON and fast healing makes for a formidable tank. And you get all this after your sub level. This is mainly a tank template but the other stuff are nice as well.

Samb
2009-03-20, 11:06 PM
bah double post

combining duelist with swashbuckler has crossed my mind but both overlap so much that I really thought SWB was a reprint of duelist. I was thinking of adjusting this class to pure one-on-one fighting and not much else.

Here's a rough draft: unless otherwise noted this is all in addition to what is listed in CW


at lvl 1 give precise strike +1d6. The restriction on offhand attacks still applies. Precise strike increases every 5 levels to max of 5d6 at level 20.

lvl 3 gains 2 weapon defense, even if she doesn't qualify for it. This is mostly flavor since rapier duelists used daggers offhand for parries.

lvl 4 gains canny defense which adds INT bonus to AC

lvl 5 gains a free luck feat and every 5 levels thereafter. This replaces the lucky trait that SWB normally gets at 11.

lvl 6 they can gain combat expertise and can use it at a 1:2 AR:AC ratio instead of the usual 1:1 ratio.

lvl 7 can feint as a swift action.

lvl 9 gains improved disarm as a free feat

lvl 12 gains deflect arrows

lvl 15 her precise strikes count as critical hits when applying for special effects on a weapon. This means that she will not multiply her damage, but if she had a weapon with a flaming burst, that effect would trigger. Some effects will not work on this like vopral and coup de grace.


So at lvl 20 she could be doing 4 attacks at 5d6+INT bonus+ STR bonus a pop. And the added effect of whatever weapon she has. I would suggest soulbreaker for the negative level :xykon: but bodyfeeder is fine for evilness also.

I think I could shave off some of the feats like disarm, deflect arrows and TWD but the flavor goes so well. This is supposed to be a melee fighter that excels at one on one combat with good AC, so I am taking out the improved flanking. Also taking out the wounding critical because it would be a bit too powerful with her precise strikes= crits and -2 STR just doesn't seem to be the way honor duels are fought besides I'm sure there are weapons that do the same thing.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-21, 11:24 AM
The feats for rogue are mostly flavor also. Rogues were meant to be mobile and evasive hence dodge-->spring attack. This will fill a slot of the requirements for shadowdancer. The bonus skill feats is to lessen the less of skill ranks due to multiclassing. This also allows for the possibility to get dual strike and rapid/bounding assualt during a spring attack. You will still need to dip into ranger for the free TWF and some more into a classes with full BAB progression but you could very well be making 6 attacks on a spring attack (just learned they stacked). Bounding attack and rapid blitz have had their requirements lowered to 10 and 16 for our table.
Huh, no they don't. TWF requires a Full Round action, Spring attack(and later feats) only allow an attack action. I guess you could use dual strike, but that only allows one attack with each hand, so the other feats would then be useless.

And I'm not saying dodge/mobility isn't appropriate, it just sucks so much that it's not going to be a power boost(as you said). The problem is that Spring attack only works for one type of rouge, thus you're pigeon holeing them if they want to make use of this, and if they don't then they aren't getting anything from their supposed power boost (I'd argue that the feat isn't that good anyways).


With the free spring attack the whole build needs 9 feats to complete. With 2 level dips in ranger, fighter and psiwarrior will give 5 extra feats but lose lots of skill and 3d6 on SA. Skill feats will buffer the skill lose while dogde series will free up feat slots to make a true hit and run rogue.
The skill feats give a +2 bonus, while you're losing 4 levels of skills(neither the Psiwarrior's nor the Fighter's skill list gives you the skills you really need to increase). Plus, they only do that for 2 random skills, and only once each(I don't believe there's too much overlap in any case). The Ranger list might not give everything need, but I think it's close enough that it's more in the nature of a trade than anything else. This wouldn't be a problem, except that you're gimping yourself with the other dips. It's a fact of the skill system that skill monkey's can't really dip, as too few classes give them a comparable skill list.


Let's just be clear, rogues were meant to be skill monkeys. That is what they are paid to do. If you think skill monkey is derogatory then rogue was not meant for you. If you find that only basheds are getting all the fun in your party then you need to either be more active/creative or ask your DM for more chances to shine. The adjust on rogue was to give the potential to be something, and still excel at being the craftiest fellow in the group.
Funny, if you're supposed to be a Skill monkey, why are you gimping your skills? Cause that's what's going to happen with all those level dips. Also, I never said anything bad about being a skill monkey's (I happen to like skills). Thus, to quote Yahtzee, "... so either you've got the wrong address, or you're projecting so hard you could point yourself at a wall and show off powerpoint presentations."

Also, you might try and be a bit less hypocritical there, as you're the one giving the class a power boost, all I'm saying is that the boost is inherently flawed. If the class doesn't need one, why are you giving it one?

Starbuck_II
2009-03-21, 11:33 AM
Death attack was the most expendable of all of the assasin abilities and most "evil". It's really just flavor and more easily justified than taking away spells or SA.


Death attack is granted by good (exalted variety), non-good, or lawful assasain Prc:
Blackl Flame Zealot, Slayer of Domiel, and Avenger. These Prc are official not required to be evil classes with Death Attack.

There is no evil aspect of the Assassin. It is just flavor.

sonofzeal
2009-03-21, 11:43 AM
Rogue: at level 1: gets free dodge, Level 2: get mobility, level 3: spring attack and at every even level they get a choice of feats that increases skill rolls (stealthy, deceitful, etc).

The dodge->spring attack is mainly to qualify for PrC and the fact that while spring attack is a good feat, dodge and mobility are not. The +skill feats give the premiere skill monkey more freedom to dip into other classes (ranger 2, fighter 2, psiwarrior 2, barbarian 1) that have less skill without as much worry in losing skills.
Way too good. That's more bonus feats than fighters, and Rogues already get a full set of fairly decent class abilities! The problem with Rogues is that most of what they do is weaker copies of low level Wizard spells (Knock, Invisibility, Silence), but adding Dodge/Mobility like that is only going to make them attractive to dippers who need those to get into PrCs. If you want to given them Spring Attack, then add it as a "special ability" and start granting them earlier. I'd also add Shot on the Run (for archery rogues), Freedom of Movement for class-level rounds per day (divided as they see fit), and Dimension Door class-level times per day.


Paladins: are automatically considered exalted at level 4 (provided they never needed atonement) and can take an exalted feat at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. Pallies also take a substitution at level 12 to gain the saint template. The substitution level (only gains BAB and saving throws) for the pally basically counts as a LA of 1 instead of 2. Saints on your side is literally a godsend, the only downside is that your DM will have to make pallies of lvl 12+ very rare. The best tank around.
Note: while you can acquire this template earlier you would need to sacrifice 2 levels. Here you only take one sub level sacrificing only spells and smite abilities for an awesome template.
Saint is an awesome template and highly recommended for... well, just about anyone who can qualify. Still, it's one of the few templates that's really worth it for LA+2, and making it almost free seems a little excessive. I like you idea of the substitution level to soften the blow (is hp advanced?), but you're effectively softening the blow twice by making it "merely" a substitution AND reducing it to only one level. I'd do one or the other, not both.


Psywarrior: full BAB, can take a mantle in place of 2nd level bonus feat. These guys are always decent even in near epic levels and just needed a little nudge. Honestly, most of the times I don't even notice the BAB.
PsiWar don't need the help. I believe they're considered one of the best-balanced classes in the game; adding full BAB will put them up to ToB level, maybe even a bit ahead.


Fighter: extra attacks only impose a -3 penalty instead of -5. This means they gain a 2nd attack at level 4, 3rd attack at lvl 7 and so on. Fighter "mains" can have up to 5 attacks per round. If multiclassing this benefit only applies if fighter classes are more than half of the total HD, otherwise use the normal rules. You should see alot of fighter11/ PrC 9 from now on. Fighter is still unpopular at our game even with this huge boost. Don't know why.
....not half bad. I'd also allow progressively cheaper/faster retraining of Fighter Bonus feats (as per PHB2), culminating in the ability to retrain (possibly from a set of "feats known") in a full-round action either at lvl 20 or as an epic feat at lvl 21.


Monks: basically become psionic fists but with ALL the monk features. They gain powers point at the same rate but powers levels are increased at intervals of 4. So level 1-4 get lvl 1 powers, 5-8 gain lvl 2 powers, to a max of lvl 5 powers at 17-20. Psionic fist and monks were never that good but when you combine them it is pretty good. Hell monks should all be psionic just for the flavor.
Excellent change, entirely supported. I'd consider allowing people working off the SRD to combine Monk and Soulknife instead, and apply mindblade benefits to their fists.


Ranger: No one at our games plays ranger, but most non-fighters dip 2 levels into it to get free TWF. Maybe make both combat styles available to players and faster spell progression? Maybe it doesn't need anything at all.
Ranger is decent. But Archery is far too easy to negate, and TWF is strictly inferior to two-handed weapons unless you have a source of bonus damage, which Rangers... don't. This means that both combat options kinda suck for them, giving little motivation to take the class all the way. I'd give mid to high level archer-tree Rangers the ability to negate "Deflect Arrows", "Windwall", and "Protection From Arrows". I'd also give mid to high level TWF-tree Rangers a full round Smite ability to use against Favoured Enemies that applies to all attacks made in that round.


Barbarian: gain bonus rage feats at 1, 3 and at 9. I know they are tier 4 but every barbarian I have played with have played it like it is at worst a tier 3. The bonus rage feats are mainly to qualify for frenzied berzerker or just to kick more ass.
Barbarians are fine. They rank low on Tier systems because they don't get anything magical, but I've never actually seen that as a problem in-game. However, it's a reeeeeally front-loaded class already, and seriously drags in the levels 3-10 range. Bonus rage feats work, but they should be at levels 3, 6, and 9.


Psion: not that need a boost but they get psicrystal for free at level one. And yes they do gain feats.
They already get a bonus psi feat they can use for a psicrystal at level one. If they want one they can get one, if they don't they can get something that matters more to them. This seems rather unnecessary to me.


Assassins: Non-evil assassins can exist but they can only do death attack to paralyze their mark. An opponent paralyzed this way cannot be coup de graced and all damage done to it is non-lethal. They are really ex-assassins. Most of the time the rogue just wants to dip into this class for a fast +1d6 in SA or hide in plain sight.
The change to Death Attack is counterintuitive and awkward - does this mean that if I paralyze someone, then the Wizard nukes him with a fireball, the fireball does nonlethal damage? I'd rather just put the enemy at -1 and stable, and be done with it.


Elocator: full ML progression, scorn earth allows you to move silently at full speed or adds +5 to your move silently at half speed. They also gain teleport and plane shift 1/day as a psi-like ability at lvl 4. I personally love this PrC for my rogue/psiwarrior, although i think it would have been better a just psiwarrior/elocator since scorn earth lets you charge anywhere.
Elocator is a moderately poor PrC, but if you're fixing PrCs then there's way more important problems. See my list-in-progress (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0), especially the worst category. As to this proposed fix, full ML seems way too much, and would be seriously overpowered for a Psion entry. I'd make it a straight 4/5 progression (dead levels at 1 and 6), which IMO is enough to move it up a category in my system.


mystic theuge/ cerebromancer: These guys can convert spells to power points and vice versa. This was what the dragon-gods in Dark sun did and I don't see why it was taken out. Divine levels and arcane spell levels are interchangeable. divine/arcane levels and points convert is the same way: level 2 spell will convert to 3 power point, or 17 points (a level 9 power) will convert to an extra lvl 9 slot. Not that these guy ever get level 9 spells till epic level that is........
Good change. Might not raise it a tier, but a good change nonetheless. I'd also extend the class to level 14; that would raise it a tier.

Toliudar
2009-03-21, 01:41 PM
I think that, given the challenges that Paladins face in keeping up along the power curve, the saint template at level 11 might work fine. There are such restrictions on exalted behaviour that you've really going to be making some serious sacrifices in order to reach that point.

Samb
2009-03-21, 03:03 PM
I seem to be getting mixed reviews on rogue which must mean I'm doing something right LOL. I like sonofseal's ideas but I think we will keep the skill feats and the spring attack since they are not exactly feats that most people use.

Fighter and monk changes seem to be pretty much accepted. Retraining idea could make fighters versitile in the way they were meant to be.

Making the bonus rage feats at 3, 9, and 12 seems like a more balenced idea thanks again sonofseal.

The changes to assassin have been panned that I think it's better to just change the preqs or do away with the PrC as a PC class altogether.

I know the change on psiwarrior makes them on par with ToB but isn't that the ultimate goal of a melée?

I suppose saint for only 1/2 level could be a bit too much of a boost. Maybe just one LA then.

Elocator..... This is the first time we are using this class so I expected this to be a bit harder to fix. Like I said Im using a rogue/psiwarrior/elocator so full ML doesn't seem so bad. If it was for just a psiwarrior then I see how it could be too good. Sonorzeal, could you clarify why you ranked it -1. With full ML progression would it be +1 instead?

Rangers seem ok to me, but since no one plays it in my groups I really can't say. Everything that everyone mentioned sounds workable but how it plays out is another question.

Cerebomancer is an old throwback to Dark Sun's defiler kings who had this same ability. And I'm pretty sure they were lvl 15 in this class.

Any comments on my swwshbukler? I one of like it but maybe touch of a boost?

Samb
2009-03-21, 03:35 PM
Just to address mekler's concerns, I don't feel I am locking rogues into a certain build just by givng them spring attack or skill feats (other than as a skill monkey). Just because they get spring attack doesn't mean they will run with that concept, it just makes that build easier the acheive.
Check the Q&A thread answer 490 for dual attack and rapid blitz. They do stack but you take -4 on all attacks.

sonofzeal
2009-03-21, 03:39 PM
I seem to be getting mixed reviews on rogue which must mean I'm doing something right LOL. I like sonofseal's ideas but I think we will keep the skill feats and the spring attack since they are not exactly feats that most people use.

Fighter and monk changes seem to be pretty much accepted. Retraining idea could make fighters versitile in the way they were meant to be.

Making the bonus rage feats at 3, 9, and 12 seems like a more balenced idea thanks again sonofseal.

The changes to assassin have been panned that I think it's better to just change the preqs or do away with the PrC as a PC class altogether.

I know the change on psiwarrior makes them on par with ToB but isn't that the ultimate goal of a melée?

I suppose saint for only 1/2 level could be a bit too much of a boost. Maybe just one LA then.

Elocator..... This is the first time we are using this class so I expected this to be a bit harder to fix. Like I said Im using a rogue/psiwarrior/elocator so full ML doesn't seem so bad. If it was for just a psiwarrior then I see how it could be too good. Sonorzeal, could you clarify why you ranked it -1. With full ML progression would it be +1 instead?

Rangers seem ok to me, but since no one plays it in my groups I really can't say. Everything that everyone mentioned sounds workable but how it plays out is another question.

Cerebomancer is an old throwback to Dark Sun's defiler kings who had this same ability. And I'm pretty sure they were lvl 15 in this class.

Any comments on my swwshbukler? I one of like it but maybe touch of a boost?
I rated Elocater a -1 because I was thinking of Psions... but looking at the entry again, it's entirely respectable for PsiWars (getting towards a +1, actually). I'll change the entry.

I'm still really hesitant about the PsiWar change. It makes them far too good for dipping, because now PsiWar2 does everything Fighter2 did, plus the feats can be psi feats, plus you gain a couple useful powers. Too good for dippers. If you want to boost their combat power, I'd give a chain of class features that gradually erases the difference their poor BAB makes (similar to Monk's Flurry progression, but applying to all attacks). So maybe a +1 untyped bonus on attack rolls at 5, 9, 13, 17?

Swashbuckler changes... again, far too front-loaded. Look, the problem melee classes have is not that they're categorically too weak, it's that they don't follow the same exponential curve that casting classes do. Giving them class features in the first 3-4 levels is just going to encourage dipping! Not that dipping is evil, just that people can already dip just fine; we should be rewarding people for sticking with the class longer-term, give something to progress towards. With that in mind, I'd stagger the AC bonus - allow Int-to-AC up to a certain cap, and have the cap rise with class level and maybe disappear entirely around level 15. Two-weapon defense is "meh" as long as bucklers and mithral shields are cheap; a static +X "parry" bonus to AC fits better, imo (with X the same as Monk static AC bonus). Feinting as a Swift Action is the domain of the Invisible Blade; if you're going to hand out PrC capstones, at least make sure they're higher level, limited in some way, or synergize powerfully with that PrC. The Precise=crit power is weird; I'd just give a static bonus to damage on top of Precise... or double it. There's some pretty crazy things you can do on crits, but I do agree that getting some bonus damage would help.

Draz74
2009-03-21, 07:15 PM
I'm still really hesitant about the PsiWar change. It makes them far too good for dipping, because now PsiWar2 does everything Fighter2 did, plus the feats can be psi feats, plus you gain a couple useful powers. Too good for dippers. If you want to boost their combat power, I'd give a chain of class features that gradually erases the difference their poor BAB makes (similar to Monk's Flurry progression, but applying to all attacks). So maybe a +1 untyped bonus on attack rolls at 5, 9, 13, 17?

I really think the best fix for anyone who thinks PsyWarriors are slightly underpowered is simply to give them bonus per encounter PP equal to their PsyWarrior level. Voila, their endurance problem is gone, and they gain an extra reason to stay in-class instead of PrCing.

(The extra PP are non-cumulative -- e.g. at Level 10, the PsyWarrior has an extra 10 PP, not an extra 55. And if you're worried about PsyWarrior being too good of a dip, which is valid, maybe you won't start gaining the extra PP until Level 3 or so. So a Level 10 would actually have 8 bonus PP/encounter, rather than 10.)

Starbuck_II
2009-03-21, 08:19 PM
I really think the best fix for anyone who thinks PsyWarriors are slightly underpowered is simply to give them bonus per encounter PP equal to their PsyWarrior level. Voila, their endurance problem is gone, and they gain an extra reason to stay in-class instead of PrCing.

(The extra PP are non-cumulative -- e.g. at Level 10, the PsyWarrior has an extra 10 PP, not an extra 55. And if you're worried about PsyWarrior being too good of a dip, which is valid, maybe you won't start gaining the extra PP until Level 3 or so. So a Level 10 would actually have 8 bonus PP/encounter, rather than 10.)

I like that: But I think 2nd level is fine.
every level after 1st they gain extra PP/encounter equal to Psi-warrior level -1.
Come, 1 pp/encounter is too good a dip: whouh?

Flickerdart
2009-03-21, 08:33 PM
Gotta fluff it somehow though, to make it look nice. What about...the Psychic Warrior's extra PP is generated in the heat of the battle, when his body and mind subconsciously pushes itself to its limits. Or something. The Psion doesn't get this because he's a lot more reserved and calculating, instead of plunging into combat and swinging away with a stick.

Samb
2009-03-22, 01:13 AM
I rated Elocater a -1 because I was thinking of Psions... but looking at the entry again, it's entirely respectable for PsiWars (getting towards a +1, actually). I'll change the entry.Elocator screamed Lurk or psiwarrior to me. Opportunistic strike reeks of melee and in fact evens out to basically full BAB progression.


Swashbuckler changes... again, far too front-loaded. Look, the problem melee classes have is not that they're categorically too weak, it's that they don't follow the same exponential curve that casting classes do. Giving them class features in the first 3-4 levels is just going to encourage dipping! Not that dipping is evil, just that people can already dip just fine; we should be rewarding people for sticking with the class longer-term, give something to progress towards. With that in mind, I'd stagger the AC bonus - allow Int-to-AC up to a certain cap, and have the cap rise with class level and maybe disappear entirely around level 15. Two-weapon defense is "meh" as long as bucklers and mithral shields are cheap; a static +X "parry" bonus to AC fits better, imo (with X the same as Monk static AC bonus). Feinting as a Swift Action is the domain of the Invisible Blade; if you're going to hand out PrC capstones, at least make sure they're higher level, limited in some way, or synergize powerfully with that PrC. The Precise=crit power is weird; I'd just give a static bonus to damage on top of Precise... or double it. There's some pretty crazy things you can do on crits, but I do agree that getting some bonus damage would help.

It is too front loaded and I agree. SWB is already a dip class since it gives bonuses to relax save and free weapon finesse. The goal of these houserules wasn't necessarily to discourage dipping or multi-classing but to make make things a bit more flexible. If they wish to dip they could and if they wanted to stay pure they could as well without worry.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-22, 01:47 AM
Rogue: at level 1: gets free dodge, Level 2: get mobility, level 3: spring attack and at every even level they get a choice of feats that increases skill rolls (stealthy, deceitful, etc). That makes the very expensive entry into Shadowdancer more reasonable, and I like it. Hide in Plain Sight really should be a Rogue class ability.

The dodge->spring attack is mainly to qualify for PrC and the fact that while spring attack is a good feat, dodge and mobility are not. The +skill feats give the premiere skill monkey more freedom to dip into other classes (ranger 2, fighter 2, psiwarrior 2, barbarian 1) that have less skill without as much worry in losing skills. Frankly, I'd use the +skill feats not to alleviate the downside of dipping, but rather to become an even better skill monkey. You can never have too many skills.

Samb
2009-03-22, 02:34 AM
I really like swashbukler and deulist mainly because I'm a fencer myself, and I think it is a shame that WoTC didn't make either one of them work that well. As it is SWB is a dip class and deulist just plain sucks. Here's my revision with consideration to sonofzeal's suggestions. Again the focus is on one on one combat.


BAB, hit dice, skills and saving throws are all the same, but they cannot use shields (this is a duelist not a gladiator).
SWB/duelist hybrid

1)Weapon finesse (feat)

2)Grace +1

3)Insightful strike

4)TWD (feat), improved reaction (+2 on initiative)

5)Dodge bonus+1 (dodge target only), precise strike +1d6

6)Duelist expertise (like combat expertise but 1:2 ratio on Dodge target only)

7)Deadly defense (feat in CS, when fighting defensively you can add 1d6 on your attacks), (no acrobatic charge)

8)Glove (pimp) slap (force Dodge target to attack only you, will save negates DC= 10+CHR bonus), unncanny dodge (no imp flanking)

9)Beat attack (knock another single handed weapon out of the way, and opponent is treated as disarmed for 1d4 turns. Reflex save negates DC= opposed strength check)

10)Precise stike +2d6, Dodge bonus +2

11)Feint as a swift action (earliest invisible blade gets this is level 10 and invisible blade's is a free action not swift, IB can also take 10 on feints). Bonus Luck feat

12)Mom/wife joke (same as glove slap but DC= 10+ 1/2 SWB lvl +CHR), Maestro duelist (you gain a bonus equal to your CHR on your attack rolls to your Dodge target; max +5)

13)Double precision (allows for off-hand to attack with precise strike) (no acrobatic skill mastery)

14)Parry-reposte (every time your Dodge target misses you, you gain an AoO, combines well with deadly defense), bonus luck feat

15)Dodge bonus +3, precise strike +3d6

16)Fleshe attack (French for flash attack; your precise strike deals and extra +2d6 on a charge)

17)Perfect parry (when your Dodge target misses you, he is flat-footed), bonus luck feat

18)Slippery mind, Blade catcher (3 time per encounter you can make a reflex save on an incoming attack to disarm your attacker with your offhand weapon)

19)(nothing saving up for the crowning ability, because its worth it)

20)Precision critical (3 times per encounter, your precise strikes counts as criticals for the purpose of most special effects; you do not multiply damage in this case, note that your attack is not treated as a natural 20). Bonus luck feat, precise strike +4d6

Bolded are my own creations.

Hope you all like the changes because this is a class I could have fun playing. Dodge is a key part of this version of SWB so it should be the first feat you pick, this is to emphasis the one-on-one aspect.

Improved flanking taken out since it is about ganging up on someone.

Luck feats to add a bit of scoundrel in 'em.

At 13 you can use TWF with precise strike and get that coveted "exponential" increase in damage if you prepared got TWF--> greater TWF by 12. Timing is a bit awkward, since before 13, TWF can't be used with precise strike, which would make all the TWF feats useless (unless you don't like using precise strike).

All the good stuff is at the end so no one accuse me of front loading! Still a good dip, but also worth it to go all the way. If my DM approves it I'd definatily go for a dry run against high level tier 2s or 1s.

Samb
2009-03-22, 02:35 AM
That makes the very expensive entry into Shadowdancer more reasonable, and I like it. Hide in Plain Sight really should be a Rogue class ability.
Frankly, I'd use the +skill feats not to alleviate the downside of dipping, but rather to become an even better skill monkey. You can never have too many skills.
The bolded part was really the point. Make rogues have the flexibility to go either way. Curmudgeon you are the only one that understands me!

Thespianus
2009-03-22, 02:50 AM
Frankly, I'd use the +skill feats not to alleviate the downside of dipping, but rather to become an even better skill monkey. You can never have too many skills.
How about, instead of giving out Skill Bonus-feats, you give out extra skill points at, say, 4th level and then every 4th level after that? Like that feat that gives you 5 skill points?

Granted, some PrCs (IIRC) demand some of the skill feats, which means that no one will ever take those PrCs, and your fix would remedy that.

I like your Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-thing, even if it might make the Rogue class an almost required 3 level dip for any Spring Attack-melee builds. ;)

However, maybe you could instead consider lumping them all together? If you take Dodge as a feat, you get Mobility for free? Or, heck, you get all three for free, maybe? Dodge will net you Mobility and Spring Attack and everyone will be happy! :)

I haven't tought too much about this, and I haven't had my coffee yet, so there might be some serious flaw in what I'm saying. ;)

Thespianus
2009-03-22, 03:11 AM
Fighter: extra attacks only impose a -3 penalty instead of -5. This means they gain a 2nd attack at level 4, 3rd attack at lvl 7 and so on. Fighter "mains" can have up to 5 attacks per round. If multiclassing this benefit only applies if fighter classes are more than half of the total HD, otherwise use the normal rules. You should see alot of fighter11/ PrC 9 from now on. Fighter is still unpopular at our game even with this huge boost. Don't know why.

I've been going over some Fighter fixes (seems everyone does) with a friend and I came up with something that might be crazy, but I like the idea none the less:

At Fighter level 8-10 (undecided yet), you gain "Fighter Power Attack Synergy" or whatever. Basically, it gives different bonuses depending on your fighting style: A Sword and Board Fighter will be able to power attack as if he wielded his weapon in two hands, a TWF fighter will be able to power attack with both weapons, even if they are light weapons, and the archer type of build will gain some (as of yet) undecided bonuses. The traditional THF-build will get a smaller Power Attack bonus, since this build is pretty much the only build that works with power attack today.

At Fighter level 11, you choose paths. You either become a "Leader" or you become a "Loner" (cheesy names, but alliteration is important ;) )

As a Fighter "Leader", you become a mix of the "Legendary Leader" PrC from Heroes of Battle and a Bard: You gain some inspirational powers, you can rally troops around you, and basically wherever this Leader moves on the battle field, his allies will gain benefits from being around him.

As a Fighter "Loner", you gain an increased BAB progression, with +2 to BAB every Fighter level from now on, instead of +1. However, you don't gain more than 4 attacks. So at level 20, the Loner will be able to attack with 30/25/20/15, instead of 20/15/10/5.

This means that the Loner will be able to power attack very frequently and become more of a threat on the battle field.

It's rough ideas and we haven't playtested it at all, but we want to make the pure Fighter more interesting, and after 10 levels of straight Fighter, the player need a little something-something to award his patience. :)

Samb
2009-03-22, 02:38 PM
swashbukler needed a full make over but I think the next few will be much more minor.

Wilder: gains power at one/level, at level one they pick a 1st lvl power on there list to manifest as a psi-like ability once a day. At level 2 she can use this twice a day and at level 3, she can use it 3/day. At level 4 she can pick a lvl2 in addition, this power also increases in usage per day until 3/day. Same at 8-9, 10-12, and 13-15. And at lvl 20 they get font of power but are completely drained after it's use. This is bascally the metamind combined. Psi-like abilites are augmented to the max, and can be stacked with surges. They can use overchannel but the chance of ennervation increases to 15+ ML increase due to surge and overchannel and daze lasts 2 rounds instead of one.

Mindblade: full BAB and they get powers from the lurk list. They get craft points at level 3 that they can spend on augmenting their blades. They get 1 point every level from 3-6, then 2 points for level 6-12, and 3 points from 12-17. 2 points convert to +1 bonus and can be stored for next level uses.