An alignment question

[Thajocoth]

Last night in a campaign I was running, a Good character nearly went genocidal on a mountain full of Dwarves. Took a lot of explaining from her allies why it'd be a bad thing to do.

Basically, they helped a Dwarven King get a Gelatinous Young Black Dragon out of his treasure vault. The dragon eventually surrendered and was escorted out. The reward was an important quest item, a bunch of gold, and sending a Cleric to the town she's from to bring her town's leader (and his daughter) back to life. Just before the deal was made, the character found out that the King had signed into law an OK for genocide of certain other races. She suspects her race (Shifters) to be among them. Once she got her reward, she was all ready to invite the dragon back with an Animal Messenger. She's a Chaotic Good Dhampyr Longtooth Shifter Cleric [multiclass Ranger] of Sehanine. The reason that finally convinced her was that it's a bad tactical move for their primary quest, not that it'd be a wrong thing to do.

Should I, as GM, declare that she's gone Chaotic Neutral? She didn't actually go through with it, but she was quite serious about her plan to fight through the mountain alongside a dragon who was Evil. (Though, when it left, it was reconsidering it's alignment.)

[Narmoth]

That depends: will you run alignment based on intent or on actions?

If the former, then saving the princess to get a reward from the king isn't a good, but a selfish action.

[hamishspence]

I prefer combination- Since "objectively X acts" currently only seem to include Evil and Lawful (since only Fiendish Codex 2 lists them) then, intent matters for Good and Chaotic acts, but not Lawful or Evil ones.

BoED seems to use this- intent can turn a normally Good act into Neutral, but not a normally Evil act into Neutral.

Helping others, for selfish reasons, is neutral.

Torture, even with the motivation "prevent future evil acts" is Evil.

[Flickerdart]

Depends, did she want to stop the king because she believes genocide is wrong, or because she didn't want to legally become a monster?

[Myou]

In the game I run she would now be either Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil, depending on the details and her past attitudes and actions.

[Thajocoth]

The law was already put into place... It was done by a secret council of leaders from several cities & towns in the region. Their main quest, at the moment, is to collect signatures from each leader that voted against it to prove that it didn't actually pass. King Steelhammer gave them, as part of their reward for removing the dragon, a signed doc, with his seal on it, saying he voted against it, even though that's a lie... But it'd still help them as proof they need to get the law repealed, they'll just essentially be lying.

They need to prove at least 6 (out of 11) voted against it. This is the 5th leader of the group they've spoken with. The other 4 signatures (with corresponding seals) they've got all really did vote against it. So there's no way for hurting the Dwarves to stop the genocidal law. More than anything, it's because she sees it as a death order on her, her firends, family, and everyone she's known before and is angry about that.

Assuming Shifters are actually on the list. They don't know this for certain. They know Goblins, Genasi, Warforged and Half-Elves are, and that Dwarves, Orcs, Humans, Eladrin, Elves, Drow & Dopplegangers aren't. Steelhammer voted for it in the hopes that Orcs would be added to the list. He's stated regret to the players at his decision.

I think I agree with the actions for Law & Evil, intent for Good & Chaos thing Hamishspence mentioned. It just makes logical sense to me... So I suppose Chaotic Neutral is the way to go then.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Basically, they helped a Dwarven King get a Gelatinous Young Black Dragon out of his treasure vault. The dragon eventually surrendered and was escorted out. The reward was an important quest item, a bunch of gold, and sending a Cleric to the town she's from to bring her town's leader (and his daughter) back to life. Just before the deal was made, the character found out that the King had signed into law an OK for genocide of certain other races. She suspects her race (Shifters) to be among them. Once she got her reward, she was all ready to invite the dragon back with an Animal Messenger. She's a Chaotic Good Dhampyr Longtooth Shifter Cleric [multiclass Ranger] of Sehanine. The reason that finally convinced her was that it's a bad tactical move for their primary quest, not that it'd be a wrong thing to do.

OK, what did the PC plan to do with the monster? If it was to kill the King in order to get someone to change the law, this could be CG. But, if the PC was willing to just let it run amok through a town of innocents then that could be CN or even CE.


A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions.


"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Launching a monster as a Vengeance Weapon on a largely-innocent city is CE, fullstop. Attempting to guide the monster to take out the King or the government is more CN; if innocents die he doesn't feel so bad, but it was not his intent to kill them.

BTW - don't change alignment until a character has done something to merit it. Merely planning to do something isn't enough; he must show some sort of follow-through to confirm that he was serious about this change.

[Myou]

Wow, she's totally crazy.
She would have blown the whole mission, done nothing to help the situation, killed huge numbers of innocent people, and made it almost impossible for the law to ever be overturned. And her race may not even be included.

Chaotic evil, right there, in any game I'm running at least. >.>

[Thajocoth]

OK, what did the PC plan to do with the monster?


Attempting to guide the monster to take out the King or the government is more CN; if innocents die he doesn't feel so bad, but it was not his intent to kill them.
That... And also split his treasury with the dragon 60/40, allowing the dragon to stay in the treasury room it was just kicked out of with it's new hoard.


BTW - don't change alignment until a character has done something to merit it. Merely planning to do something isn't enough; he must show some sort of follow-through to confirm that he was serious about this change.
Hmm... True. The player had gone as far as deciding exactly what the Animal Messenger Ritual should say, but her allies stopped her from following through. I think she still plans on doing it later... But she's not doing it right now.

Though, since she chose an Unaligned deity, she's not going to suddenly lose her power to cast by changing alignments, I don't think, so this might not matter all that much after all. I generally watch divine alignments a little more closely than the other power sources.

[Myou]

That... And also split his treasury with the dragon 60/40, allowing the dragon to stay in the treasury room it was just kicked out of with it's new hoard.


Hmm... True. The player had gone as far as deciding exactly what the Animal Messenger Ritual should say, but her allies stopped her from following through. I think she still plans on doing it later... But she's not doing it right now.

Intent is easily as important as action though, I, at least, would change her alighment, since she truly intended to do it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That... And also split his treasury with the dragon 60/40, allowing the dragon to stay in the treasury room it was just kicked out of with it's new hoard.

That's ethically irrelevant for this situation.

Good luck with your group; with any luck the PC will forget about / be talked out of this course of action. Remember also to keep the CG description in mind; depending on how he does this, he might stay CG!


A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

Assassinating a "bad king" to protect his people is potentially CG, albeit very close to the line. If the PC shows little regard for the well-being of others while carrying out this plan then he is CN; if he actively seeks to kill innocents or doesn't particularly care whether they live or die, it's CE.

EDIT:

Intent is easily as important as action though, I, at least, would change her alighment, since she truly intended to do it.
The reason why I'd say "wait until initiated" is because it feels terribly unfair to a PC for their character to get zapped by the DM "for doing nothing." Like the law, I don't think people should be prosecuted for thought crimes - they need to do enough to show they're really serious.

[Thajocoth]

Intent is easily as important as action though, I, at least, would change her alighment, since she truly intended to do it.


The reason why I'd say "wait until initiated" is because it feels terribly unfair to a PC for their character to get zapped by the DM "for doing nothing." Like the law, I don't think people should be prosecuted for thought crimes - they need to do enough to show they're really serious.

This here is a difficult dichotomy. With any action, one can look at the intent... The reason why... And a single action can have enough possible reasons that it can be pushed into any of the 9 slots... But with inaction... It's far harder to say whether or not intent matters... As nothing was done.

Doing nothing, however, IS a decision. The intent to her decision to do nothing on the matter was so she doesn't impede her primary goal of ending a genocidal war that most people don't know has even started. So, I'm going to keep her at Chaotic Good, using the intent of the decision she did make. Thanks for the help with thinking this one through.

[Rhiannon87]

Her actions don't strike me as deserving of an alignment shift. As far as she knows, this king signed a law supporting genocide. Killing him and his supporters is, like, textbook chaotic good. If she planned to wipe out all the dwarves in the mountain... well, that's a little more iffy, but if that wasn't her intent, then her alignment stays the way it is. Even if her race isn't on the list, she's totally justified.

[Thajocoth]

Her actions don't strike me as deserving of an alignment shift. As far as she knows, this king signed a law supporting genocide. Killing him and his supporters is, like, textbook chaotic good. If she planned to wipe out all the dwarves in the mountain... well, that's a little more iffy, but if that wasn't her intent, then her alignment stays the way it is. Even if her race isn't on the list, she's totally justified.

If she had chosen to do it, I would agree if not for the fact that the King has not only stated to the players that he regrets his decision, but also gave the party something to help undo that decision with... Being region-wide, he cannot simply overturn the decision alone. And after what happened to the Half-Elves no one's going to oppose the decision alone.

Basically, the Half-Elven leader was very vocally opposed to the decision, so they got added to the list and the Eladrin sent Elementals in to burn down their town. If Dwarves were added to the list, the Orcs (who live on the same mountain that the Dwarves live in) would love nothing more than to have an all-out assault on the Dwarves. So he can't even declare that Steelhammer will not follow the genocidal order any longer.

So he's gone as far as he can to try to redeem himself.

[Neithan]

I think let the character stay CG. For now.

I guess it was a kind of heat of the moment descision to kill the king. When the character calms down and sees the error, no harm has been done.
But keep looking for other signs, that the character might ignore possible threats to innocent people. If it happens again, CN might actually fit better.

[Devils_Advocate]

But with inaction... It's far harder to say whether or not intent matters...
Well, here's my crazy idea on that: Neutrality is in fact unaligned. "Neutral" is not a misnomer. Any "thing" that's actually a lack of a thing -- inaction, indifference, whatever -- is neither Good, Evil, Lawful, nor Chaotic. Each alignment axis is a spectrum that you can only use to categorize things once you decide on a midpoint, and I for one advocate that neutrality is Neutral. Boccob, as presented in the 3.5 PHB, pretty much epitomizes this, being Neutral explicitly due to a general lack of concern with and intervention in the mortal world. (In Living Greyhawk, he's all balance-happy. St. Cuthbert is Lawful Good there, too, so clearly Greyhawk incarnations of the core deities are slightly different.)

Rocks have no goals, attempt nothing, and don't care about you the least little bit; they're purely Neutral. They're not Evil. (Yeah, you can define non-Neutral alignments as being intelligence plus other things that don't require intelligence, but it's far more elegant to have [non-intelligent -> Neutral] as a natural outcome of the system instead of hard-coded in. If an action is aligned because of how you're choosing to relate to other sentient beings, then obviously your actions aren't aligned if you aren't aware that other minds exist.)

Now, the purely mental action of making a decision can endanger lives. Your choices determine your future actions, and you know that. Deciding that you'll kill someone sets in motion a causal chain leading to his death, just like poisoning his drink does. But changing your mind, like removing a poisoned drink, precisely cancels out your other choice, undoing exactly the effect that your initial decision would have caused.

So if alignment were the sum total of all your deeds up to the present, I'd say that that would result in no net change. However, that's not what alignment is; rather, it's more what you're likely to do in the future. That's why it's possible to instantaneously change alignment through magic or just a sudden change of heart. So, if the shifter ultimately resolved to forswear senseless vengeance and pursue what's actually beneficial for people, her moral struggle probably made her more solidly Good: She's likely to make similar decisions along the same lines in the future.

As to the original dilemma: The genocide of another race to prevent the genocide of your own would probably tend to be Neutral (commitment to others based on how you personally relate to them), although all sorts of other factors could arguably make it pretty much any alignment.

On the other hand, if you kill lots of people purely to avenge your kin, even though it's clearly likely to make your kin worse off... that's, like, double Evil.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd say it would have been likely a CN act, (verging on CE depending on the actual, aha, execution of the plan), but with quite legitimate and roleplayed motivations. The act itself should be discouraged IC if possible, but OOC it sounds like dangerous but essentially good rping.

Sometimes Good RPing, taking the logical choice of actions for a character can result in bad decisions being made. As long as it doesn't get out of hand, or hurt anyone's fun, it's all good.

(I say, btw, CN rather than CE because if she truly believes that Shifters are on the list, then it's rather a case of doing unto others as they apparently plan to do unto you, and very understandably heat of the moment. Especially for a character of a race decended from lycanthropes!)

[Flickerdart]

Wait. If doppelgangers aren't, why would Shifters be? I say she should do the research if she wants to stay Good.

[horngeek]

Flickerdart, just being similar does not mean that they would be treated the same.

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart, just being similar does not mean that they would be treated the same.
Why not? What difference does an outsider see between a creature that can change shape and another creature that can change shape? I'm not even sure on the difference between the two, myself.

[Thajocoth]

Wait. If doppelgangers aren't, why would Shifters be? I say she should do the research if she wants to stay Good.She misremembers what the 1st NPC in the campaign said, believing he said her race was on the list. She should be getting the actual list for sure in the next session or two. Also, the player knows (tagged as spoiler for it's length):

Both the Dopplegangers and Shifters had their leaders on the council that voted for this war, and both voted against the war. The Doppleganger representative was also representing both the Elves and Drow. In addition, they also know all of the following:

Information most people in The Dome know about the locations with Dopplegangers and Shifters in The Dome respectively (starting info for everyone on those regions):

Freana Caverns lies below Treetwist Forest. The Drow live in Freana and the Elves in Treetwist. Despite sharing the same basic region, the two groups don't seem to run into one another often, so there's not a whole lot of tension in the area.

and

Treetwist Forest is named after the fact that the trees seem to twist away from the portal, towards The Dome's center. Odd considering how old trees are, and that the portal's been up for only roughly 300 years.

-----

The people of Hollowville are well known for their kindness and hospitality, and for their relative seclusion. Most visitors, however, find them eerily creepy. You'd think they'd be more like the other humans, in Greenhaven.


And, information characters who start as a Doppleganger or Shifter would start off knowing, respectively:

Treetwist Forest, named because of how the trees twist away from The Dome's edge, is home of the Elves. The Elves there are ruled by a local elected council. There are some Dopplegangers on the outskirts of the town, and many holes that lead between their town and Freana Caverns below, not that any Elves wish to travel to Freana. Their closest friends are Maladar Outpost and Greenhaven.

and

Freana Caverns, or "Friends of the Darkness" Caverns, is home of the Drow. The Drow matriarch has final say, but there is a local elected council that decides on what matters to bring before her. There are some Dopplegangers on the outskirts of the town, and many pathways that lead up from their town to Treetwist Forest above, not that any Drow wish to travel to Treetwist. Their clerics have seen signs, since The Dome's creation, that Lolth has forgotten them, so they've started warming up to the other gods. There are points on the edge of their natural cavern that connect to Marzanu's tunnels. Freana's closest friend are the Marzanu.

and

The Dopplegangers of Freana Caverns and Treetwist Forest consider the two as one big city and openly trade between them. Most of the councils of both cities are made up of Dopplegangers, despite only being 1/4 of the region's population. The Elves and Drow both know there are some Dopplegangers, but they have no idea how pervasive Dopplegangers are in their societies. The Doppleganger's open trade between Freana and Treetwist has not only proven very profitable to the Dopplegangers, but has created far more economic stimulation in both places than either place would be capable of on their own.

-----

Hollowville is a small town of Weretouched shifters. They're wary of all the other races, as they've been hunted in the past. Each entrance to the town is patrolled by three guards in their human form. When they see travelers approach, one of the three leaves the post, goes to the center of town, and rings the Great Bell while the other two stall the visitors with politeness. Upon hearing the Great Bell, all of the villagers shift into their human forms. They're very hospitable to outsiders, but outsiders often realize that they're hiding something, and don't stay long.

So, their situations and levels of influence are very very different.

[horngeek]

Not yet. YET. But if she actually does it...

BTW, Flickerdart, to really answer your question, I would have to refer to real-life genocides. And I really, really don't like doing that.