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Asbestos
2009-03-20, 03:05 PM
So, over at WotC they have their little Editorial Calendar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/calendar) with a playtest for Martial Power 2 coming out on Monday the 23rd.

So, assuming that only classes come out in PHBs, what the heck can we speculate will be in MP2?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-20, 03:09 PM
More powers, paragon paths and epic destinies for fighters, rangers, rogues and warlords, one would assume.

Thajocoth
2009-03-20, 03:15 PM
More powers, paragon paths and epic destinies for fighters, rangers, rogues and warlords, one would assume.

And feats...

And, just maybe... A Martial Controller. As it stands, Martial Controller is the only power source + party role combo that doesn't exist.

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-20, 03:23 PM
So, assuming that only classes come out in PHBs, what the heck can we speculate will be in MP2?

Books other than the Players handbooks will have classes. Monk is going to be in Martial Power 2. They are introducing a new power source (Ki) which implies several new classes (ninja, anybody?). We also know that the Artifacer will be in Arcane Power.

Hzurr
2009-03-20, 03:43 PM
Books other than the Players handbooks will have classes. Monk is going to be in Martial Power 2. They are introducing a new power source (Ki) which implies several new classes (ninja, anybody?). We also know that the Artifacer will be in Arcane Power.

Err...I'm not sure if all of this is correct. It doesn't make any sense that they would introduce a new power source in a book that is specifically for the Martial power source.

They have announced that there will be a monk playtest showing up in...May, I believe, but my understanding was that it would appear in the PHB3 (just like they gave out Barbarian 6+ months before the phb 2).

Also, Artificer in Arcane Power? Again, it was my understanding that the artificer would appear in the Eberron campaign setting stuff (similar to how the swordmage appeared in the FRPG). They released an early playtest of it, so that people in Eberron games could continue.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-20, 03:46 PM
And feats...

And, just maybe... A Martial Controller. As it stands, Martial Controller is the only power source + party role combo that doesn't exist.

How the heck would they pull that off? Martial characters get all stabby with their swords and stuff, controllers make things go BOOM!

hamishspence
2009-03-20, 03:53 PM
Traps, Reach weapons, Caltrops, Followers ? It is a bit tricky- its not the boominess, but the moving enemies around, creating danger zones, etc, that makes a controller though.

JackMage666
2009-03-20, 03:54 PM
How the heck would they pull that off? Martial characters get all stabby with their swords and stuff, controllers make things go BOOM!

I would assume through an Archery or Thrown-weapon based class. The point of the Controller, from my understanding, is crowd control through status effects, and area-of effect type attacks. Arrow volleys and well placed shots could simulate this control from a martial standpoint. Basically, it'd be a Ranger that gives up extra damage for extra effects.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-03-20, 04:00 PM
What would they even call a class like that? The ranger's already the only class where archery is even viable.

chiasaur11
2009-03-20, 04:05 PM
Archer?

Hawkeye?

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-20, 05:09 PM
Err...I'm not sure if all of this is correct. It doesn't make any sense that they would introduce a new power source in a book that is specifically for the Martial power source.

You are right, I was misremembering.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-20, 05:41 PM
What would they even call a class like that? The ranger's already the only class where archery is even viable.

How about "Scout" :smallamused:

If I were doing a Martial Controller, I'd probably go with a lightly-armored fellow who has good OA defenses and uses a lot of Burst 1 effects that primarily give status effects.

I'd call him "Skirmisher" or possibly "Shock Trooper."

Artanis
2009-03-20, 05:42 PM
And feats...

And, just maybe... A Martial Controller. As it stands, Martial Controller is the only power source + party role combo that doesn't exist.
And I pray to God that it stays that way. There are way way WAY too many controllers. Seriously, there's eighteen known classes, and only four are not primary or secondary controllers. And three of those are in the PHB.



How the heck would they pull that off? Martial characters get all stabby with their swords and stuff, controllers make things go BOOM!
The hallmarks of a Controller are multi-target attacks, debuffs, forced movement, and area denial. A martial controller is kinda hard for even me to imagine, and I have both a seriously overactive imagination and a very strong willingness to say, "meh, you can B.S. the fluff to make the crunch make sense."

What I do imagine, however, would look a lot like a cross between a Fighter and a Barbarian. The Fighter because it would make a lot of sense for different weapons to be linked to different effects. Things like stun powers benefitting from using a hammer, slow powers benefitting from using a light blade, etc. And the Barbarian because...well, have you seen the thing? It seems like pretty much any power that doesn't give them temp HP does some sort of controller-style effect, such as AoE damage, knocking prone, forced movement, and to-hit or AC debuffs.




And I still haven't figured out why they say the Barbarian is a secondary leader. There's the one PP, but other than that, I can find virtually nothing that's even remotely leader-ish.

hamishspence
2009-03-20, 05:48 PM
Warlords and Clerics are leaders, and their powers have some of that style.

Or is it that they are secondarily controllers, and their similarities to barbarian come through that?

Draz74
2009-03-20, 06:14 PM
And I pray to God that it stays that way. There are way way WAY too many controllers. Seriously, there's eighteen known classes, and only four are not primary or secondary controllers. And three of those are in the PHB.

Well, that's not so ridiculous when you consider the most recent pattern where each class has three of the four "roles" -- one as primary, two as secondary. If you have an issue, it should be with that IMHO.

Besides, you're referring to ... Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, and Barbarian? ... as the only classes without a Controller element? Because I think calling Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric "secondary controllers" is a bit of a stretch. And I don't know much about the Avenger, but what's Controller-ish about it?

Asbestos
2009-03-20, 06:27 PM
And I still haven't figured out why they say the Barbarian is a secondary leader. There's the one PP, but other than that, I can find virtually nothing that's even remotely leader-ish.

Thaneborn Triumph: You gain the roar of triumph
power. In addition, whenever you bloody an
enemy, the next attack by you or an ally against that
enemy gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to your
Charisma modifier

Roar of Triumph Barbarian Feature
Your howl of victory shakes your enemies to the core, as they
know your blood thirst is not yet quenched.
Encounter ✦ Fear, Primal
Free Action Close burst 5
Trigger: Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points
Target: Each enemy in burst
Effect: Each target takes a –2 penalty to all defenses until
the end of your next turn.

Those two bits right there make them secondary leaders. I don't think that AC or to-hit debuffs are necessarily controllery. AC debuffs for instance are basically the same as to-hit buffs, its leader territory. Forced movement, status effects, area denial, and the like are controller territory.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-20, 06:48 PM
Books other than the Players handbooks will have classes. Monk is going to be in Martial Power 2. They are introducing a new power source (Ki) which implies several new classes (ninja, anybody?). We also know that the Artifacer will be in Arcane Power.

I'm sure all of that is not correct.

Books other than PHBs will have classes, but that refers to Setting books, and the * Power books won't. The Monk appears in the PHB3 or 4, as does the new Ki power source; indeed, it makes no sense to put a Ki class in a Martial book.

Also, the Artificer won't appear in Arcane Power, but in the Eberron player's book. However, there will be some Artificer add-ons in Arcane Power, but certainly not the class itself.

RebelRogue
2009-03-20, 06:52 PM
How the heck would they pull that off? Martial characters get all stabby with their swords and stuff, controllers make things go BOOM!
A Monk would make perfect sense as a Controller. Close Blast 1 type flurry of blow stuff would be awesome and debuff Controller stuff (stunning, disarming, tripping) is right up the monk's ally as I see it.

Artanis
2009-03-20, 07:14 PM
Warlords and Clerics are leaders, and their powers have some of that style.

Or is it that they are secondarily controllers, and their similarities to barbarian come through that?
Clerics are definitely secondary controllers.

Warlords, on the other hand, aren't secondary controllers, but they have nowhere near the sheer number or magnitude of controller-y stuff that secondary controllers do. Powers with controller-style secondary effects like debuffs, AoE damage, and forced movement are relatively rare.

Look at the level 5 dailies, for example. Warlords get two that are blatantly leader-type powers, and their third option is something that Fighters do on a regular basis. Barbarians, on the other hand, have two that keep them from dying; one ongoing AoE damage "aura"; and one that not just dazes, but ALSO lets them try and knock an enemy prone every turn as a free action. The other levels are varying degrees of the same (L23 Encounter powers are really, really telling).


Well, that's not so ridiculous when you consider the most recent pattern where each class has three of the four "roles" -- one as primary, two as secondary. If you have an issue, it should be with that IMHO.
1) I've only seen that in the PHB2. As far as I can tell, the Swordmage and the PHB classes tend to be one primary and one secondary. Several classes in the PHB2 are that way as well, such as the Bard and Sorcerer.

2) Even if every single class in the PHB2 had 2 secondary role options, that would lead one to expect two non-controllers, not just one. They may have intended to make the Barbarian a non-controller, but they failed pretty miserably if that's the case.


So controllers are, IMO, somewhat overrepresented, even in the PHB2.


Besides, you're referring to ... Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, and Barbarian? ... as the only classes without a Controller element? Because I think calling Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric "secondary controllers" is a bit of a stretch. And I don't know much about the Avenger, but what's Controller-ish about it?
Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, and Shaman. See above regarding the Barbarian.

I don't just look at the powers. What I look for is what percentage of each level's power options do the things that I listed earlier as controller hallmarks. What I see when I do that puts the Cleric squarely in secondary controller territory, with a huge percentage of its choices tending to have controller-y side effects. It also puts Rangers securely in there, since they get a lot of multi-target attacks, and debuffing attacks are hard (or sometimes even impossible) to avoid.

I had thought it had been established that Rogues were "officially" secondary controllers :smallconfused: . At any rate, they get a good number of debuffs and forced movement. And if nothing else, they sure as hell aren't secondary defenders or leaders.

The Avenger...well, first off it comes out and says it is, but unlike the Barbarian, it has the powers to back that up. Their dailies don't tend to do much controller stuff, but the encounter powers do, especially when it comes to forced movement.




*yeesh* didn't expect this post to take so long. I'm sure there's more to reply to by the time I finish it, but I'm going to go watch a movie now.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-20, 07:16 PM
A Monk would make perfect sense as a Controller. Close Blast 1 type flurry of blow stuff would be awesome and debuff Controller stuff (stunning, disarming, tripping) is right up the monk's ally as I see it.

Except that the Monk is going to be Ki based, not Martial.

But yes, I expect a lot of short-ranged bursts, sliding, tripping, reach weapons, etc as debuffs. Ranged is also a conceivable way to go. They could even be combined if WotC can't come up with enough ideas, and be like a Ranger, offering close and ranged combat options.

Aron Times
2009-03-20, 07:21 PM
I'm guessing Martial Power 2 will focus on mounted combat or perhaps weapon specialization.

RebelRogue
2009-03-20, 07:21 PM
Except that the Monk is going to be Ki based, not Martial.
Sure. I'm not deying that :smallsmile: Which means we'll probably see them no sooner than PHB III. It does sound like a character I'd like to play, though. I just hope they won't make them yet another striker :smallsigh:

Artanis
2009-03-20, 08:47 PM
Surprise surprise, there was more :smallwink:


Thaneborn Triumph: You gain the roar of triumph
power. In addition, whenever you bloody an
enemy, the next attack by you or an ally against that
enemy gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to your
Charisma modifier

Roar of Triumph Barbarian Feature
Your howl of victory shakes your enemies to the core, as they
know your blood thirst is not yet quenched.
Encounter ✦ Fear, Primal
Free Action Close burst 5
Trigger: Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points
Target: Each enemy in burst
Effect: Each target takes a –2 penalty to all defenses until
the end of your next turn.

Those two bits right there make them secondary leaders. I don't think that AC or to-hit debuffs are necessarily controllery. AC debuffs for instance are basically the same as to-hit buffs, its leader territory. Forced movement, status effects, area denial, and the like are controller territory.
Thaneborn Triumph could easily fit into the Striker, Controller, or Leader categories. So let's call that a wash.

Yes, you can write defense debuffs into strictly-constrained attack buffs, and vice versa. The required strict constraints to get the exact same effect is a factor in and of itself. Even besides that though, if you look at the non-controller leaders (Shaman and Warlord), they give buffs to allies; if you look at secondary controllers like the Warlock, Sorcerer, and Ranger, they give exactly the sort of debuff that Roar of Triumph gives.

So I still don't see any leader-style capabilities.

What's more, even if you do consider the two effects to be leader-ish, I still see no way that the Barbarian can be called a secondary leader anyways. Any other class can at least pretend to fill in its secondary role should a primary go down, but there's no way in hell the Barbarian could do that. And even if you ignore that, there are levels where literally every single available power is blatantly controller-style, but the same cannot be said for leader-style powers.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-20, 10:45 PM
I'm sure all of that is not correct.

Books other than PHBs will have classes, but that refers to Setting books, and the * Power books won't. The Monk appears in the PHB3 or 4, as does the new Ki power source; indeed, it makes no sense to put a Ki class in a Martial book.

Also, the Artificer won't appear in Arcane Power, but in the Eberron player's book. However, there will be some Artificer add-ons in Arcane Power, but certainly not the class itself.

This exchange is hilarious.

According to the catalog, and I believe several previews, the artificer will not be augmented in the first Arcane Power.

Reverent-One
2009-03-20, 11:25 PM
This exchange is hilarious.

According to the catalog, and I believe several previews, the artificer will not be augmented in the first Arcane Power.

What?! Noooo!!! *RAGE!*




In all seriousness, that is a shame. I like artificers.

Inyssius Tor
2009-03-20, 11:58 PM
Oh, indeed. I can only hope that DDI will be oh-so-bountiful that month (speaking of which, hasn't it been fantastic lately? Playing Shadar-Kai, Secrets of the City Untombed, Art of the Kill, both effing-sweet Alloces articles, Ecology of the Sharn, Deities & Demigods: Bane, Masters of the Planes... the list goes on and on).

NPCMook
2009-03-21, 01:01 AM
Martial Power 2 will probably consist of feats/Paragon Paths for the new races, and probably a few new class features, perhaps we will now have the "Archer Fighter" who would make no sense, but apparently some people want them

TheOOB
2009-03-21, 01:11 AM
Perhaps we will now have the "Archer Fighter" who would make no sense, but apparently some people want them

Defenders are melee, period. It's in the description of the role. They may have some ranged powers, but they will always be melee characters.

I'd rather see an archer rogue.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-21, 01:16 AM
I'd rather see an archer rogue.

:smallconfused: Martial Powers I made Sniper Rogues extremely doable. Have you looked at it?

TheOOB
2009-03-21, 01:23 AM
:smallconfused: Martial Powers I made Sniper Rogues extremely doable. Have you looked at it?

I've skimmed over it, only having really read the fighter section all the way through. I don't own that book, my friend does, so I only got a chance to read the section on the character I was playing at the time.

I plan on picking up the book, but college textbooks are slightly more important right now :(

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-21, 01:29 AM
I've skimmed over it, only having really read the fighter section all the way through. I don't own that book, my friend does, so I only got a chance to read the section on the character I was playing at the time.

I plan on picking up the book, but college textbooks are slightly more important right now :(

Well, rest assured that the Sniper Rogue is easy to make as is. Heck, there's a PP devoted to it, IIRC.

Townopolis
2009-03-21, 02:31 AM
And now, with the half-orc, a race for it.

*checks to make sure brutal scoundrel doesn't specify melee*

Yep, half-orcs seem to make the best snipers.

TheOOB
2009-03-21, 03:36 AM
And now, with the half-orc, a race for it.

*checks to make sure brutal scoundrel doesn't specify melee*

Yep, half-orcs seem to make the best snipers.

Their stats are in the right place, but the rest of the race screams melee. Their racial power is perfect ally usable, ranged, but it's a little on the weak side. This is made up for by their increased charge speed, and extra toughness when they get bloodied, two things which happen(hopefully) little to a ranged character.

If power is your concern for any archer, pick elf. Elven Accuracy is awesome, and the extra speed and ability to shift in difficult terrain is great for staying out of melee.

Asbestos
2009-03-21, 04:16 AM
Thaneborn Triumph could easily fit into the Striker, Controller, or Leader categories. So let's call that a wash.

Say what? How is giving a pretty significant bonus to hit anything but leader? Presumably the barbarian is going to give that bonus to someone else unless they spend an action point. At first level that should be at least a +2 to hit whenever the barbarian bloodies someone.

Beyond "Leaders can heal and Defenders can mark" the roles are rather ill-defined.

Townopolis
2009-03-21, 04:31 AM
You're right, elves are designed from the ground up to make the best ranged martial characters, especially archery rangers.

In fact, halflings probably make better crossbow rogues than half-orcs, if for no other reason than they're designed from the ground up to make the best rogues.

However, they half-orc is still better when it comes specifically to trying to snipe someone.

BobVosh
2009-03-21, 05:11 AM
Is there a word for magic power/unearthed arcane ?

Artanis
2009-03-21, 11:28 AM
Say what? How is giving a pretty significant bonus to hit anything but leader? Presumably the barbarian is going to give that bonus to someone else unless they spend an action point. At first level that should be at least a +2 to hit whenever the barbarian bloodies someone.
The power makes the next ONE attack against it do more (average) damage. It isn't an ongoing thing, it's "this power does its damage, and it does 10% of the next one to come at it as well". No, I don't personally think it's a striker power, but one could reasonably argue that it is such. Thus, "could be striker".

It's a bonus to the next attack roll against it by an ally. Thus, "could be leader".

It's a bonus to the next ONE attack roll against it. As you have pointed out, a to-hit buff vs. it and a defense debuff to it can be reworded as each other, and this one in particular is relatively easy to reword. Given that every single other such power in the class has controller wording (which I'll get to later), this could very easily be considered a controller power. Thus, "could be controller".



Beyond "Leaders can heal and Defenders can mark" the roles are rather ill-defined.
Those are the clearest hallmarks, yes. "If the class can heal, it's a leader, period" and "if the class can mark, it's a defender, period". Paladins are pretty blatant secondary leaders, and Barbarians' crappy defenses and multitude of powers like Devastating Strike that make them even easier to hit make them pretty clearly possible secondary defenders.

When I look for any class's secondary role, I do two things: I try to boil down the essence of that role to its core, and I look for other classes whose role we're sure about (like Paladins and Warlocks) that do similar things. I also look at the end effect of what happens to the enemy, rather than the means of doing so.

*Defenders make the enemy want spend their actions attacking them instead of their allies.
*Strikers make enemies die faster.
*Controllers screw the enemy over and attack multiple enemies at once. The former, in turn, has hallmarks of status effects, forced movement, and area denial.
*Leaders keep allies healthy and at maximum effectiveness.

For an example of this in action look at the Warlord. Warlords are leaders. But also look at their powers, and the amount of damage enemies take due to them: Warlord's Strike eventually makes the enemy lose a LOT more hp than a mere 2w+stat attack; Commander's Strike could come close to Twin Strike under the right circumstances; Windmill of Doom is like Commander's Strike on crack; and so on. So, I say that Warlords are secondary strikers.


Now, on to Barbarians.

I think we can both agree that Barbarians are indeed secondary defenders: their crappy defenses get them attacked a lot, they refuse to die, they're always where they enemy can attack them, and they even have a couple powers that imitate the end result of marking. For instance, Devastating Strike practically says, "you mark everything anywhere ever".

So, on to the Barbarian's other secondary role. Let's see if the Barbarian has any of the hallmarks of a controller:
*LOTS of forced movement options? Check.
*LOTS of direct status effect options? Check.
*LOTS of multi-target damage options? Check.
*LOTS of area denial? Not so much.

So 3 out of 4.

Now I get to the -2 things. Look at what the Warlock and Sorcerer do, both of which are clearly secondary controllers. Both give lots of -2 defense and to-hit debuffs. LOTS. And looking through the non-PP Warlock and Sorcerer powers, between the two classes combined I see one ally-buffing utility, one iffy utility, and two powers that might be argued to be a buff for allies. That's it.

THIS is why I say -2 debuffs are controller abilities, not leader abilities. If -2 debuffs were leader abilities, then the Warlock and Sorcerer would be secondary leaders. But they aren't. So -2 abilities are not secondary leader abilities.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-21, 11:38 AM
Is there a word for magic power/unearthed arcane ?

I...have no idea what you're asking here. If you're asking about an arcane=based book, Arcane Power comes out next month. But I don't get the feeling that is what you are asking so...could you clarify your question please?

And OT, Hasn't WotC officially stated that we will only be seeing new classes in PHBs and Campaign Setting books? The "X Power" supplements will never have a base class? Which means that MP2 will expand PPs and EDs, Feats, powers, class features, maybe martially-focused items, and probably more racially focused stuff. I'm not really sure what else they could slip in. Maybe some Martial-focused Rituals?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-21, 11:42 AM
I'm not really sure what else they could slip in. Maybe some Martial-focused Rituals?

I seriously doubt it. Perhaps WotC plans to release more Martial Classes between now and then? If so, then they'll need their splatbook too...

OK, I think I see WotC's business plan now... and I don't think I approve :smallannoyed:

Gralamin
2009-03-21, 11:57 AM
Its not all that big of a surprise really. Its the same thing as 3.5 having Core, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic and Spell Compendium. Yes they contained content for other classes, but overall they are more focused on giving arcane spellcasters more power. I personally get the reaction people would prefer something like Expanded Psionics Handbook + Complete Psionic (Except without the amount of suck in CP), One book for the power source, One splat book to enhance it.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-03-21, 12:30 PM
Its not all that big of a surprise really. Its the same thing as 3.5 having Core, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic and Spell Compendium. Yes they contained content for other classes, but overall they are more focused on giving arcane spellcasters more power. I personally get the reaction people would prefer something like Expanded Psionics Handbook + Complete Psionic (Except without the amount of suck in CP), One book for the power source, One splat book to enhance it.

Ah, but it's a bit more than that. Now, they have DDI which is updated as each splatbook comes out. Since they charge $30-$35 per book, the $60 per year for DDI is looking pretty good - particularly if they come out with at least 2 books a year.

But, you never own DDI; if you want to keep playing 4E you'll still be paying $60 per year for access to the books even if WotC stops producing new material. This gives WotC a fairly stable revenue stream for the foreseeable future. Hopefully this means they won't rush out half-finished books to raise sales, but we'll see.

It's not dishonest or anything, but I feel uneasy about not actually owning the books in the long run.

KIDS
2009-03-21, 12:40 PM
Okay, I'm honestly getting worried about the speed of releasing these new books... I mean, the point of the reset was to rein in the runaway publishing of all possible (and frequently disliked/useless) material, so why so much?

No, I'm not saying that Martial Power 2 will be bad or anything, however, I can't imagine what WOTC will be publishing in, say, 2012 (three years from now). I very much liked 4E, but if the answer is "5E", I'll probably freak out.

Slow down, WOTC, and rely on subscriptions instead! It's the recession anyways, not the time for rapid growth!

Kurald Galain
2009-03-21, 12:43 PM
I mean, the point of the reset was to rein in the runaway publishing of all possible (and frequently disliked/useless) material
I seriously doubt that was the point of the reset.



No, I'm not saying that Martial Power 2 will be bad or anything,
I am, actually. At this pace, eventually they will either run out of design space, or resort to power creep to keep things interesting. Probably both.


I can't imagine what WOTC will be publishing in, say, 2012 (three years from now).
The answer would be "Elemental Power 3". Remember, there's eight power sources (somehow - people on the web have so far been unable to make a meaningful distinction) and each would get at least one expansion book, probably more. Plus they get to print one Setting per year, of course.

And yeah, 5E is an inevitability, although probably not in three years.

Asbestos
2009-03-21, 02:10 PM
For an example of this in action look at the Warlord. Warlords are leaders. But also look at their powers, and the amount of damage enemies take due to them: Warlord's Strike eventually makes the enemy lose a LOT more hp than a mere 2w+stat attack; Commander's Strike could come close to Twin Strike under the right circumstances; Windmill of Doom is like Commander's Strike on crack; and so on. So, I say that Warlords are secondary strikers.

IMO, since the Warlord itself isn't doing the damage but instead allowing an ally to do damage/maximize the damage that ally does, then they are in fact not themselves secondary strikers. Strikers seem to be the most 'lone-wolf' classes. They do the extra damage on their own, not by having their allies do all the damage for them.


I concede most of the stuff you have to say about barbarians. I still think that Thaneborn Triumph is a primarily leader-like ability, however.

Asbestos
2009-03-21, 11:32 PM
I am, actually. At this pace, eventually they will either run out of design space, or resort to power creep to keep things interesting. Probably both.


Well, on Monday they put out a playtest article for MP2, so we should get a glimpse at how little space they have left/how overpowered things will be. Now, whether this will be as robust as the artificer and barbarian playtests or as weaksauce as the AV2 playtest is anybodies guess.